Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:11 AM

No, it was a straight question - it was a word I'd not heard before, which quite often happens on the Mudcat. That's because we're spread out round the globe.

Every now and then you find out that words you've used all your life are totally meaningless to other people, and the other way round. That's one of the things that makes it fun.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: bbelle
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 04:03 PM

I didn't think you were patronizing Greer ... I thought you were patronizing me because I had used a Yiddish word, which you didn't understand.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 03:48 PM

Sorry - me cookie had crumbled, and I never noticed. Now I'll have to go round and see how many other GUEST appearances I've made.

I agree that GUESTS should be ignored. (I mean when that's all they sign in as.) I thought it looked more like German than Yiddish, which is why I tried the Babelfish on it. It doesn't seem as good at translating from German to English as it is from English to French.

But just in case - patronising isn't what I do. Least of all with someone like Germaine Greer.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: bbelle
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 03:30 PM

I will no longer respond to anyone who uses the pseudonym "Guest," however, I will respond to this. Yiddish is not exactly anything ... it is a language comprised of several eastern European languages. The post was written in German, not Yiddish.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 03:07 PM

Well, I tried that with Babelfish as German to English, and German to French as well. It seemed to be saying that there was something patronising in translating the Germaine quote into French and that that is my Modus Operandi.

Can't see it myself. "To treat with lofty condescenscion as of a superior to an inferior" - to quote a dictionary. That most definitely isn't be how I see Germaine Greer. (But since Yiddish isn't exactly German, maybe Babelfish didn't get it quite right.)

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: bbelle
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:39 PM

McGrath von Harlow..., Ich bin jüdisch und Yiddish zu verwenden ist ein natürliches Teil meiner Lebensdauer. Ich bin immer mehr als glücklich, die Übersetzung eines Wortes Yiddish ins Englische zu geben. Traurig, wenn es nicht in Ihr Verzeichnis der reimenden Wörter paßt. Ihr Übersetzung des Anführungsstriches Germaine Greer in Franzosen patronizing..., aber das scheint, Ihr Modusoperandi zu sein.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 08:16 PM

Thanks. Less useful as a rhyme than I'd hoped, but a good word to have in the locker nonetheless. Now if only Babelfish would add facility for translating all these troublesome threads into yiddish...

Lacking that, here is a Babelfish translation of the Germaine quote into French - and it's a measure of her prose style that it goes into French without a hiccup.

Femmes plus de cinquante déjà forme un des plus grands groupes dans la structure de population du monde occidental. Aussi longtemps qu'ils s'aiment, ils ne seront pas une minorité opprimée. Afin de s'aimer ils doivent rejeter le trivialization par d'autres de qui et de ce que sont ils. Une femme développée ne devrait pas doit masquerade comme une fille afin de rester dans la terre du vivant... Germaine Greer

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: bbelle
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 07:53 PM

Since I wrote it, I would be more than happy to define it for you. It's a Yiddish word, means schlmiel or nerd. It's not pronounced like "give me a nudge" ... more like, if you pronounced the "u" like oo, with an umlaut ...

moonchild

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 07:15 PM

"Nudge" is a new one on me. Could someone define? (I like new words that could be useful rhymes.)

Germaine is one of the few people who makes me switch for the un-mute button on my TV-remote control, and pretty well anytime I see her in a discussion or argument, I find she's the one I'm most likely to agree with. But I still think the use of "like" in that quote is a mistake.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: bbelle
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 11:17 AM

Peter ... You must think I am some kind of illiterate nudge. Along with the National Enquirer and various other yellow tabloids, dime novels, Playgirl, and self-help tomes, I am quite well-read, and I have both read Germaine Greer and seen her and even heard her decry her own writings. I don't agree with much of what she says, but there is truth in her above statement, like it or not ...

moonchild

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 11:09 AM

I dunno Peter........"Courage to do what has to be done?" That's a job for Powdermilk Biscuits if I ever heard of one. No need to like yourself or get religion of nuthin'.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 11:04 AM

Women are more highly evolved than men, and, I will argue that point with any mouth breathing knuckle dragger in the house!!

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 10:39 AM

Certainly, Jeri, I agree that the social structure disempowers people, but what I was objecting to was the phrase "liking oneself". Abraham Lincoln didn't like himself -- he was riddled with self-doubt. St. Teresa of Avila despised herself, and still went cheerfully around beating up all the lesser men in her vicinity. Did Marie Curie go around worrying about her self-esteem? The big things often seem to be done by people who feel they are totally unworthy, but have no choice.

Also, liking oneself and believing in oneself are not the same thing at all. I can believe that I am capable of doing something, even though I am a stupid jerk and pretty hopeless, if no one else will. But even if you don't believe in yourself, you can believe in God or the righteousness of your cause. That tends to be how people gather up the courage to do things in spite of how weakly they envisage themselves.

moonchild, you should read some Germaine Greer some time -- I was being kind when I spoke of her "failings" -- I have heard her in public speak of "what kind of fucking lunacy made me do that?".

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:45 PM

It wasn't Bald Eagle used the expression "send a shiver up my spine", it was me: "Expressions like "believing" in yourself" or or "liking yourself" send a shiver up my back - there are too many real bastards around who believe in themselves and like themselves only too much." And most of those evil bastards are men, the power structures of society being the way they are.

And since "oppressed minority" was Germaine Greer's phrase, as quoted by moonchild in her post opening this thread, it was odd to see Peter getting stomped for picking it up. Of course women aren't a minority, but women over 50 are. As are people over 50 in general.

I still can't see how liking yourself or believing in yourself adds up to that much. What matters is to be in the right, and to believe you are in the right, and to be confident that you can be strong enough to do what needs doing. If you worry about liking yourself, either you're going to try to be likeable when that may not be relevant, or you'll learn to like all those qualities in yourself that aren't there to be liked, like the evil bastards I talked about.

And I have a bad hair day most days...(look at the picture...Or better, don't.)

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:13 PM

Well, that's true, flattop, and the theory is often used to show that women are the big mature responsible ones and men are just whiny little boys. But judging from Jeri's post above, it would seem like the world would be a happier place if men & women were both big kids...maybe we would then center on doing stuff together, instead of killing each other over words.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:11 PM

Peter, I disagree. People who don't like or believe in themselves also don't believe they're worthy of improving their lot, or that they're capable of doing so. The structural oppression is what causes people to believe they're unworthy, but in order for them to change society, they must first believe they can.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: flattop
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:08 PM

A Vancouver playwright said that, 'Girls grow up to be women but boys grow up to be big boys.'

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:59 PM

Hey! I told them that all we are are worthless pig bastards, but no one ever believes me! "Soy un perdedor. I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?" to bring it back to music.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: bbelle
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:52 PM

Peter ... "failings" "minority" "bad hair day" ... I reckon there's no secrets about what you think of women. Oh, and BTW, women are not a minority ... perhaps this is what makes men so defensive ...

moonchild

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 05:03 PM

I don't see that Bald Eagle was responding to any special female quality in the quotation. He seems to have been responding to the dreary self-esteem rhetoric about "liking oneself". Many of the most interesting people in history have loathed themselves, and done everything they could to drag themselves away from themselves towards higher things than self. I am surprised that Germaine Greer, who is usually somewhat more interestingly ironic about her own failings should have said this. The idea that liking yourself is essential to throwing off the shackles of being an oppressed minority is typical of a society that wants you to ignore structural oppression and focus on self-help -- it is not a social problem, it is just that you don't feel good about yourself, so it is a personal problem, and not political, economic, or societal. That is why the best seller lists are full of books about self-improvement, and not about supporting community and social action to change things.

Or maybe she just had a bad hair day.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: bbelle
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 04:31 PM

Bald Eagle ... Please, by all means, spit ... into the wind preferably. This particular TFTD is about WOMEN and if it sends "shivers" down anyone's spine, so be it. It must have hit a sore spot, though, because you certainly reacted defensively. I didn't post it to elicit validation from the men, although I am always interested in what men have to say.

Jeri ... very good analogy ... one to which I, and all MY women friends, can relate.

Oh, and to head off any who would call me "feminist" ... you couldn't be farther from the truth. I am, however, an equalist, and continue to fight for the right to be treated as an equal by my male counterparts in the business world.

Turning 50 was not a bad thing for me, because I have attained most of my life's goals, however, I know many women, for whom turning 50 was/is devastating ... and Germaine Greer's quote hits right on the mark.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:56 PM

Sorry I posted another thought for today before I checked down the list for this. Apologies, moonchild.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:18 AM

The people I respect most are those who are confident and care what others think. They stand up for their beliefs when those beliefs differ from those of society, but don't automatically reject society's beliefs simply because they're poplular.

It seems to me that when growing up, once girls hit puberty, we were supposed to accept being less vocal, less opinionated, less "there." For me, it felt like society's rules changed overnight, and I no longer knew where I stood. I was no longer supposed to climb trees, use a hammer, wear slacks, be strong. I had to try to judge everything I did based on whether or not it fit the rules for "now" versus "then." I was a girl, not a kid. It has taken me a very long time to get back most of the confidence I had when I was 10. I think things have changed since then, but not much.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: Ringer
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:46 AM

Wow, MoH: that looks like a great site that you've given us the link to above. Many thanks.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:33 AM

I think that the thought here is really about being able to respect the essence of one's self, and to know that your own worth, male or female, young or old, depends not upon what categories other people put you in, but upon the effort that YOU put into living.

Cheers All

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:26 AM

"I know of men who believe in themselves more colossally than Napoleon or Caesar. I know where flames the fixed star of certainty and success. I can guide you to the thrones of the Super-men. The men who really believe in themselves are all in lunatic asylums."

Chesterton in Orthodoxy (and for the rest of the quote click here

Having quoted that however, I hasten to say that it's the way of saying it I'm distancing myself from, rather than what I take to be what Germain Greer is saying.

Expressions like "believing" in yourself" or or "liking yourself" sen a shiver up my back - there are too many real bastards around who believe in themselves and like themselves only too much. And I can think of really good and helpful people of whom the reverse can be said - they question themselves and their motivation, and are their own sternest critics. And I do not think that weakens them.

But recognising that "to masquerade as a girl" and refusing to let what you are to be trivialized - that is important, not as a way of liking yourself, but as a precondition to being yourself, whatever that self is.

I nearly added "or masquerade as a boy" in the last paragraph - but then I thought, it's not that symmetrical - who'd want to masquerade as a boy? That's not where it's at for men.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: GUEST,andy Mööer
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 06:14 AM

As much as these phrases sound like a cliche ,to believe in onesself is a fundamental base for a positive self esteem(for anyone). So dont spit cos someone will just slip over in it.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: Ringer
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 05:38 AM

Whenever I hear phrases like "as long as they like themselves" or "believe in themselves" I want to spit.

Subject: RE: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: GUEST,Kate
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 03:24 AM

If anyone, man or woman, is going to like themselves they have to do things that they can be proud of. It seems to me that it is as simple as that.

Subject: Thought For The Day ... July 3, 2000
From: bbelle
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:05 AM

Women over fifty already form one of the largest groups in the population structure of the western world. As long as they like themselves, they will not be an oppressed minority. In order to like themselves they must reject trivialization by others of who and what they are. A grown woman should not have to masquerade as a girl in order to remain in the land of the living ... Germaine Greer