DADGAD vs Vestapol

Subject: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From:
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 12:05 AM

I haven't used DADGAD tuning; but it seems to be a topic of conversation amongst fellow guitarists and it does produce nice results sometimes. It seems to me this tuning is a "D" chord (vestapol tuning) except that the third note is a semitone higher than it should be.

Is it common in Celtic music to use this augmented third? After all, I can take vestapol tuning and press the first fret of the "F#" string to get that "G". The value must be in the fact that the "G" is open and rings. Is an augmented third common in drones?

(By the way, I just sung the first few words of "Don't fence me in" and note it uses the augmented third tone. I don't see the relevance of this either.)

Murray

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:19 AM

Murray,

I use DADGAD almost exclusively now. I started with it several years ago when I was mainly playing Irish and other Celtic music but since finding my way around the fretboard in this tuning now use it also for more bluesy and jazzy material. It is a very versatile tuning (listen to almost anything by Pierre Bensusan for confirmation). Since I am basically too lazy to keep retuning my guitar perhaps I have explored some of the additional and less obvious possibilities of DADGAD? There are, incidentally, a couple of online resources that give extensive chord charts in DADGAD tuning. Again, basically, I am too lazy to follow these and just noodle until I find something that fits!

Peace

mcmoo

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 08:35 AM

I see/hear DADGAD tuning being used frequently among the trad Celtic crowd, and I have played with it myself - but I cannot say find it attractive for my playing style, and tastes. I do enjoy the sound, and the options - but I prefer the 'rounded out' sound of standard tuning.

I sometimes use an open D Major tuning (DADF#AD) and frequently drop my low E to a D - but I suppose that reflects my American folk roots, more then anything.

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 08:36 AM

I use DADGAD quite a bit, as well as a number of other tunings (including "Vestapol," otherwise known as Open D). The "augmented third" is more commonly known as a fourth, by the way. I find that DADGAD has a fundamentally different character than Open D, and in many ways is more versatile because it's tonality is not inherently "major". It is very well suited to a lot of Celtic music (imprecise term, I know -- please don't berate me for using it!). I believe it was invented by Davey Graham years ago. I find that it most often leads me to play in D (major, minor, or modal), which is something of a limitation -- but with some time and effort, one can find other keys to play in as well. It's definitely worth exploring.

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 08:57 AM

What's always kept me from getting into DADGAD and other tunings is that playing in a session you have to keep switching keys, and I can't do that with any flexibility excpet in standard tuning - especially since I also like to be able to capo up and play in a higher voice, pparticularly if there are other guitarists as well.

Working out what different chords are fitting at different frets in different keys with a different tuning - those are too many differents for me

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:09 AM

you' just hafta bring two guitars to session, Mc Grath!

;-)

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: Willie-O
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:14 AM

A quick-change capo is an essential accessory for DADGAD playing , because you can't (well, shouldn't) just play in D all the time. It's practical up to seventh fret (A). The only common key that just isn't available (except with a very limited fingering range, and the guitar sounds exceedinly high-strung) is C.

Conversely, though, if you work out how to play in different keys, (like I-IV-V in G, no capo) it has an interesting, edgy sound that doesn't resolve because the chord inversions aren't what you expect. Which can be kind of nice when you get tired of the excessively complete, harmonic sound of DADGAD in D.

I got a nice broody effect out of playing in A, no capo, on my fingerpicking arrangement of the tune "Skibbeeen Lasses". (Thats not the way its done on my MP3 page though )

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 12:39 PM

I don't think a quick change capo is a requirement for DADGAD when session playing along with "normal" Celtic tunes - all of the keys of D, G, A, Em, Bm, Am are easily possible without a capo. Personally I think the sound of 3rd less modal chords is a much more sympathetic sound to Celtic traditional songs and tunes than forcing major/minor chordings onto modal tunes. Until relatively recent times these melodies were strictly unaccompanied, the interest being generated by rhythmic and melodic variation and not by harmonic accompaniment, the exception being the drone (root and 5th of the pipes). There are some guitarists - notably John Doyle out of Solas, who can use dropped D and can achieve the right feel but they are in my opinion, in the minority. Incidently dropping the bottom string to C does allow some further capo-less keys to be added - notably C (you do need to be using medium strings for this).

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 12:42 PM

i heard davey graham had invented DADGAD too and that bert jansch "nicked the tuning and became known as the thief of dadgad

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: Lanfranc
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 07:31 PM

Ouch!

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From:
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:34 PM

Whistle Stop. I used the term "augmented third" rather than "fourth" because DADGAD seems to be Vestapol with that third interval "stretched"; but maybe I was on the wrong track. What you say about being pulled away from the major mode is probably a better way to look at it. I certainly like to play Carolan pieces with standard tuning (and maybe dropped D) because that doesn't have a definite mode attached to it.

Murray

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: Astorkhan
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:59 AM

Hi there. I am a big fan of modal tunings. I started from standard tuning to explore dadgad about 20 years ago; I still use this tuning for some celtic related tunes. Then I explored further the way to "detune" a guitar. I stumbled on a DGDGCD that offers intersting possibilities, including in blues. Another weird tuning I use is CGDGCD which turns out to be an interesting modal or neutral C tuning. It makes the guitar rumble like a cello, provided that the machine is strung with heavier bass strings.

Alternative tunings have a book. If Auxiris reads this thread, he (or she) can provide the reference.

All that to say that these droning tunings do not limit the kind of music that is playable.

Salut,

JL

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: Jed at Work
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:24 PM

...by the way; those interested in DADGAD and Vestapol discussions may find this related topic thread of interest as well.

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: GUEST,Phil Cooper
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 01:23 PM

I am too lazy to retune as well, so wind up playing in DADGAD at song circles as well as performances. Some of the above mentioned keys are quite easy to play in DADGAD. I also find F is easier than it is in standard. Thank god for partial chords as well. I think I got interested in DADGAD because I broke too many G strings tuning the F# back up.

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: GUEST,Astorkhan
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:09 PM

...And by the way, what is the origin and the meaning of the word "Vestapol"??

...Stormy evening in far away France. Bonsoir,

JL

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:40 PM

Hi Astorkhan. It comes from a march called "the siege of San Sebastopol". The black blues players changed that to "Vestapol".

Wish I were in France.

Rick

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:59 PM

Hellfire.....I wish I was in France.

But am I the only one who keeps looking at this thread title and thinking its actually the a plot in "Rocky and Bullwinkle?"

Spaw

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From:
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:35 PM

Astorkhan, there was a thread called What is Vestapol? in which the history of the names "Vestapol" and "Spanish" tuning are discussed.

I have to admit, I used the term "Vestapol" rather than my usual phrase "open D" because along with "DADGAD" it gave a Middle-Eastern flavor to the title. (Although I can't see the relationship with Rocky and his friends.)

Murray

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: GUEST,Astorkhan
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 05:36 AM

Thank you murray and Rick for the information about Vestapol. I feel less ignorant already. I shall check this other thread and think of Sebastopol when playing my dobro tuned that way...To me, THAT sounds like "Tintin chez les Soviets"!

It is amazing how proper names get mangled by time and people.

The storm is over in France ... for now

JL

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From:
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:25 PM

I can see it now. Tournasol tuning up the Dobro to Vestapol. Haddock tearing out his hair and Milou burying the slide outside. (Speaking of mangling names--I have my copies of Tin Tin packed away and I couldn't check the spelling of any of the names of the characters.)

Murray

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 06:33 AM

I'm still laughing, because Professor Tournesol hears about as well as a wardrobe, so tuning up the Dobro would be a "tour de force" (majeur). . . but can well imagine Haddock swearing his head off and Milou burying the slide!

cheers,

Aux

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:46 PM

"Until relatively recent times these melodies were strictly unaccompanied" - and I personally think that's a good way to sing them. The standard tuning works pretty well for the dance tunes, the jigs and the reels.

The problem isn't getting the different keys, it's switching around between them at speed. There are those who can do it with the funny tunings, but I've never been able to.

Davey Graham worked out his tunings mainly for playing Arab and Berber music in North Africa. Anyone on the Mudcat go in for playing that? They use bodhrans out there too, they just play them a different way.

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:36 PM

BORIS: Natasha, how we get Bazouki of DADGAD?
NATASHA: We steal it from Moose and Squirrel Dahlink. Then we take it to Fearless Leader in Vestapol.
BORIS: Look Natasha, Moose getting it out of case now.
NATASHA: Shhhh...We sneak up and lower boom on Moose Boris.
BULLWINKLE: Say Rock, how da ya tune this thing without strings?
ROCKY: No strings attached Bullwinkle?
BULLWINKLE: Nope....and nuthin up my sleeve either. Not even a sleeve. Its just got this trigger thing.
ROCKY: Trigger thing?!?! Bullwinkle that's a Bazooka, not a Bazouki!!! DON'T PULL THAT!!! ****BAWHOOMSH****
(Boris and Natasha "fried" by blast)
BULLWINKLE: Sounds more like a bodhran.
ROCKY: Oh Bullwinkle.....
NATASHA: I think Moose and Squirrel lower boom on us Boris.
BORIS: Tell Fearless Vestapol Leader to kiss my ass.

Spaw

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From:
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 03:53 AM

But Bazouki doesn't have six of strings! How can DADGAD be?

Murray

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:36 AM

Better use two Balalaikas - one is DAD and the other is GAD...

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:05 PM

But what the hell fits with something guys.......Gimmee a break....a little poetic license. (Although I do hate to screw up the accuracy of a 'toon).

Spaw

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: Sean Belt
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 03:47 PM

Spaw,

Bazouki, balalaika, or banjo, your dialogue above is far better than that in the "Rocky and Bullwinkle" movie. It's a shame you weren't on the writing team for that awful thing!

- Sean

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:05 PM

Listen, y'all. I have heard many an Irish band over many a year, and they all have this problem - they wanted to use guitar with their music so they would sound modern and American, but their music was never intended to be played with guitar. All too often it moves stepwise to the point where no chord harmonizes with a measure.

So they invented DADGAD and then they clung to a brutal rackety strum which sounds like a train. Band after band does the same thing. (They have now taken to calling the guitarist "the engine room.") After a while, it all sounds alike and it all sounds ugly. But since most people are impressed if they only play loudly enough and fast enough, they get away with it.

Basically, so-called Celtic bands have turned the guitar into a crude percussion instrument.

If you go to a session, 99% of the music will be played in G or D, so it can be nice to tune your lowest string to a D, but that ought to be enough.

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 11:37 PM

LOL, Spaw!! Well done! A treaure buried in another treasure of a thread!! Maybe Rocky & Bullwinkle should visit the Tavern one of these days!!**BG** Tell 'em to bring over Cletus and the Reg boyz, too.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: DADGAD vs Vestapol
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:03 AM

I agree with the comments about people playing too fast and loud but what's wrong with using the guitar as a percussive instrument, after all its origins lie in Flamenco music where its role is predominantly percussive. In both music forms the music is mainly for dancing to and rhythmic drive is not at odds with the tradition of the music.

Further I would argue with the 99% figure quoted for tunes in G or D, my guess would be that 60% would be nearer the mark, the remainder being made up of A, Em, Am, and Bm (there are a small minority of F, Gm, Dm and Bflat tunes around).