Lyr Add: The Sash My Father Wore

Subject: Lyr Add: THE SASH MY FATHER WORE
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:03 PM

The freedom to walk is a universal concern.

"Somewhere I read of the freedom of assembly. Somewhere I read of the freedom of speech. Somewhere I read of the freedom of the press. Somewhere I read that the greatness of America is the right to protest for right. And so just as I say, we aren't going to let any injunction turn us around. We are going on."
(Martin Luther King - "I see the Promised Land" speech in Memphis)

"One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all"
(Martin Luther King - Letter from Birmingham Prison, Alabama)

Our causes can not be truly free unless the causes of others are equally free!

YES FOLKS YOU CAN NOW SING ALONG WITH A NEW ORCHESTRATION OF
THE SASH!
CLICK HERE- THE LYRICS ARE FURTHER DOWN
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/pcsash.mid

THE SASH MY FATHER WORE

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman, from Erin's isle I came,
To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,
And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,
That I might have the right to wear the sash my father wore!

CHORUS: It is old but it is beautiful, and its colors they are fine
It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.
My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore
And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore

For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain
Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,
If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once more
That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!

And when some day, across the sea to Antrim's shore you come,
We'll welcome you in royal style, to the sound of flute and drum
And Ulster's hills shall echo still, from Rathlin to Dromore
As we sing again the loyal strain of the sash my father wore!

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:05 PM

OK now its a link just click and sing-Conrad The New Sash!!!!!! http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/pcsash.mid (just in case you cant get there from here!

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:08 PM

Why do you do this shit Conrad? I don't suppose there's a chance we could all just blow this off is there?

.....yeah, that's what I thought.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:24 PM

Bad Taste and Bad Timing

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,appalled
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:26 PM

Conrad the Gobshite:

Have you been a fuckwit since birth, or did it come over you slowly, by degrees?

The situation is sad enough with the protestant paramilitary /orange order arseholes ascendant at the moment, and, of course, the provos will then take their turn & try and out-arsehole them.

Just shut yer hole, eh? and lets hope this thread dies out quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: sledge
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:28 PM

??????? dropped on head as a child

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM

The freedom to walk? More like the freedom to intimidate law-abiding citizens who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

Who in their right mind would want to perpetuate this anachronistic, bigoted and distasteful nonsense.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM

Look.

If you want this thread to die, don't respond to it.

Then it will.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: SDShad
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 01:11 PM

Jaysus, never has the BS appelation been more appropriate.

Good Lord, Conrad, nobody's saying they can't wear their bloody goddamned sashes. But why exactly is it necessary to carry on Bogside with these these virulent, barbaric, fundamentalist demonstrations of anti-Catholic hate?

Less fun as no one gets terrorized if you prance about singing "Kick the Pope" in a Presbyterian (and I use the term loosely) neighborhood?

Personally, I'm not especially fond of the more trenchant songs of either the Rebel or the Orange tradition, but I'm right behind you Conrad on the preservation of the Orange folk tradition, the bad, the good, and the marvelous ("The Old Orange Flute" comes to mind). I'd never gainsay you on that issue, as I've never encountered anyone with such encyclopedic knowledge of the tradition.

But why this?

Proddy Yank who has lost almost all sympathy for his Orange "cousins,"

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:43 PM

Martin Luthor King was opposed by the students and founding fathers of Bob Jones University, the school which gave Ian Paisley his worthless degree. He marched for equal rights, not to opress a community on the grounds of their religion and political beliefs. And I say this as an Anglo Irishman, not raised a Catholic, who will never be a subject, but stands with Irish and English republicans with hopes that the day of kings and their follish lackys will pass with all the other baggage of history. I have seen Martin Luthor Kings portrate in many a house on the Falls Road, but have never seen him on any wall in the Shankill.
In yonder garden grows a weed
that gives off deadly ouder
and from its fruit springs forth a weed, thy name it is called orange
and she grows so high and spreads so wide
my wealth and power perish
and when the organge tree droops her head, liberty is sure to flourish.

Peace and reconcilliation, but TRUTH in Ireland as well.
Enjoy the 12th, but show a little respect - croppy wont lie down.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Sailor Dan working??
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:50 PM

And these Orange colored assholes call the IRA gangsters. Shit theses morons are as bad with the Catholics as Hitler was with the Jews, and they have the balls to call themselves MEN?? At least the IRA makes no bones about who they are fighting and why. Not that I agree with them totally.

Sailor Dan

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 05:28 PM

LOL! ----->now if you want to get a load of biggoted republicans out just talk about civil rights and freedom! <---- What a wonderful reflection this thiread so far has been of you!

====>the denial of the right to walk===> still a universal concern.

I suppose few would mind having St.Pats Parades canceled. You would miss the catholic Icons and the clubs of the green thugs and of course the two IRA guys out front with the image of the saint.

The road is there it is a public road and it will be walked. Heard some great lyrics to that effect from a group of women on a BBC real audio coverage.

Must get that song transcribed! Keep up the good work guys. Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Terry K
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 05:48 PM

Conrad, you do yourself a disservice. I love the stuff you do about Geordie music but this Orange/Green stuff is a can of worms/crock of shit/heap of do do's etc (delete as applicable).

But, hey, I just noticed that the aggressive responses are all actually anti-Orange, which probably means pro-Green. Sensible people don't take sides, we just despise the whole thing.

Conrad, don't stir it - stick to Geordie music and wallow in the respect you've earned!

(But hang on, I'm from the Boro and we all detest Geordies, so whose side am I on?).

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM

Isn't it wonderful how polite they have all been? I guess if its not your cultural aspirations then you gotta trash em. My only stand is for freedom! Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,appalled
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:21 PM

No, fellas, the responses aren't anti-orange (and thus pro-green) they're anti-arsehole off whatever political/religious persuasion.

The fact you can't grasp this is one of the reasons you're a fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:32 PM

Posted in another thread, this seems to be a good place to repeat it:

"The Sufis advise us to speak only after our words have managed to pass through three gates.

At the first gate, we ask ourselves, 'Are these words true?' If so, we let them pass on; if not, back they go.

At the second gate, we ask, 'Are they necessary?'

At the last gate, we ask, 'Are they kind?'"

It also seems to me that everyone could benefit from asking the same things of their actions. Nothing will be gained throughout the world by using the tactics of such as the few days have seen.

katshakingherheadattheabsolutestupidityofitall

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:35 PM

that should say, "posted by another Mudcatter" and "using the tactics of such as the pastfew days have seen.

katshakingherhead

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:37 PM

Sure, kat. Throw Sufi wisdom at me. No fair, I'm a sucker for Sufi wisdom.

As usual, they've got it right. Sometimes I just don't keep my yap shut when I orghta.

Namaste,

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: SDShad
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:43 PM

Oops, that was me, sans cookie. Don't usually use IE....

Shad

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:54 PM

Well, SD, I didn't mean it for any one person, although I was hoping the original poster might pay attention. THANKS, for posting after your GUEST appearance, though, to let us know who it was!**BG**

It is sometimes very hard for me to even try follow such wisdom, but in this case, if you go back through some of the threads on the same subject, it is, IMO, very good advice in this instance.

I really cannot imagine why the stupidity of either continues....

katsaddened

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:57 PM

Try this to clear the head.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: SDShad
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:05 PM

Oh, I didn't take it as any one person, me or otherwise, kat, but it felt relevant, inasmuch as usually I'm pretty good at not rising to flamebait on the 'Cat. Now, in my past incarnations on Usenet and BBSs, that's a different story. But I really do try to be a (semi-)good boy on the 'Cat.

Marvelous, beautiful suggstion Kevin. It's making me smile already.

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:11 PM

Thanks, Kevin...just for that I will have to work it up for HearMe...it's one of my faves. Will be joining us sometime?

katliftedupalittle

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:01 PM

Conrad

This is a sit for music and fun, please keep your tripe out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM

Thought this should be called the Dress Me Father Wore...

Oh hell why don't you just get on your knees and kiss Ian Paisley's mother's hairy ass.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:30 PM

The offensive and anonymous ranting of Guest "appalled" almost goads me into sympathising with Conrad's view. I do a little in any case.

Decent, law-abiding unionists/prods (and believe it or not, there are some) are entitled to feel threatened. They are a minority community in the island of Ireland and the wind of change is blowing strongly against them.

Partition gave them a secessionist state in which they enjoyed a majority - a comfortable majority to start with, though it has dwindled significantly. Notwithstanding that majority, they always behaved with a mindless seige mentality, borne out of their awareness of the bigger picture: hence gerrymandering; rigged housing lists; grotesesque misuse of what became a blatently partisan police force, and denial of various human rights to Catholics simply because they were catholics.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost, and needless to say, the unionists have much to lose. Many have been settled in Ireland for far longer than many other families have been settled in America. And badly as some of them have behaved towards the natives, it has been no worse than the way many American settlers treated the American natives.

There happen to have been decent people born into Ulster's protestant community, whose position deserves respect and understanding. Some cherish the parades that the rest of us find so risible, as emblematic of their threatened culture; and they remember the days when the parades caused little or no offense.

They have to face the further confusion that many of us in Britain are pissed off with the monarchy, Empire, the Anglican Communion, etc - all of which leaves them clinging to a nation that long-since disappeared up its own arse.

The Brit dilemma is that if the unionists are squeezed too hard, and too fast, the whole lot of them will "go native" and line up with the relatively small number of morons who have been on the streets this week. That would take some containing, as the Ulster Workers strike in 1974 proved (though much has changed to ensure that no such strike could be as successful again). It would also force the IRA on to the streets again.

My advice to Conrad is, have faith with the Parades Commission. They give the green light to more than 2,000 parades each year, and would approve the Gervaghy Road parade if only the Orange Order would negotiate terms with the residents. If you cannot see that one or two routes are there purely and simply to provoke ordinary people of the other persuasion, who are just as decent as you presumably are yourself, then you are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Politics apart, Conrad, I'm glad that someone is out their flying a kite for the songs and music of the protestant tradition. If you can't do that without forcing a heated debate or two upon us along the way, well personally I'm happy to have your contributions on that basis.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST, appalled
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:00 PM

What is offensive is the original posting.

This latest demonstrations of assinine behavior are not about "upholding the protestant tradition" and that sort of folderol, boyo, they are about a bunch of arseholes deliberately trying to poke someone in the eye with a sharp stick, just for the hell of it... its is childish, stupid, dangerous, and counterproductive. And THAT's offensive, not to say obscene.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:12 PM

Always a pleasure to to be proven right.............

Dammit Conrad!!! Shall we just call you #1 PISSANT instead? I hate to dis all the other pissants in the world though.............

Its not that NI is not a worthy discusion and God knows it a passionate one, but for me it is the pathetic fact that you do this shit on purpose knowing full well the ramifications and then step aside, returning only with measured tones proclaiming your completely non-partisan "logic." Stop it. It is transparent and serves no purpose. Stop it now. Don't respond with more of your polished rhetoric. Stop it.

Pat Patterson

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:44 PM

Thanks, Pat. This person really has far too high an opinion of himself and his intellectual capabilities. That is OK, there are those that might say the same about me. What troubles me is that he honestly thinks that others cannot see through this. He is actually convinced of his superiority. In fact, he shows himself for the horses patoot that he is.

St. Patrick's Day Parades celebrate nothing other than a pride in heritage. That is not to say that there are not fools out there that have little or no understanding of that heritage and use this as an excuse for drinking and acting stupid. But the intent of the parade is "the wearing of the green". I have marched, as you might guess, in many of these here in the states. I have yet to see one march to a Protestant church and stop (timed to celebration of services) and play so loudly that services cannot be celebrated. I have never seen one where all the windows of those churches were shattered, nor have I seen one where the people were harassed going in and out of those churches. In fact, I have never seen a band whose purpose it was to mock the spiritual leaders of any Protestant denomination. Can you say the same?

The simple fact is that the Orange tradition is a very important piece of IRISH history. It's songs and stories need to be preserved. After all, it spawned some of Ireland's greatest Republican leaders. That is not the same as saying that it is OK to use it as a pretext for anti-catholic bigotry. Why don't you give it up, asshole. There is a very good chance to finally end up with peace for the children of Ireland. If fools like you keep it up, you risk letting the world see who has really been making this a religious issue all along. But worse than that, much worse, you will miss a chance to let Irish people, Catholic and Protestant, Unionists and Republicans....and their children have peace.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:54 PM

The only reason that peaceful orangemen with nothing but good intent are not allowed to march down that road is because a bunch of Republican thugs in years past have taken out the petrol bombs and rocks and have demonstrated to the government their resolve.

Since the government listened the first time and banned the marches it is only fitting that after many negotiating sessions over the past several years, and several banns the unionist man in the street should resort to the tactics that have worked on behalf of the republicans in the past.

Again despite polite discussion the language and nature of most of the posts to this thread reveal the frustration brought about by argument against an issue which is rooted in basic freedom to march in peace through your own land.

The same that has been done to peaceful orangemen is being done to their music in the record stores and venues of America where the one Ireland in charge totally restricts access to only one tradition of the multi- traditional Isle of Ireland.

Let us remember that the song the Sash My Father Wore in reality threatens no one, and that Martin Luther King was working with pan cultural truths which must be applied in all situations.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:04 PM

I really appreciate the repeated comparisons by Conrad of Irish Prostestants to American Blacks. Before Conrad spoke up, I'd almost forgotten how the Protestants were shipped off in chains from their homeland and enslaved by the Irish for centuries. Thanks, Conrad!

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:17 PM

actually protestants (dissenters)were forced to flee to the new world and were regarded as second class citizens. In St. Marys city Maryland a jesuit colony protestants and dissenters existed only as indentured servants.

I have not really compaired them to black africans. I have noted that a Black african Dr. Martin Luther King has noted that the defense of freedom ( in this case walking peacefully down a public road) is a worthy cause.

But if you all like to toss out glib statements and treat the issues of freedom and civil rights raised lightly I must respect your freedom to do so. But your attitude will not change the basic nature of the complaint against the denial of basic rights raised by the Orange Order.

Remember- it is impossible to condenm any music or lyric because these things are more than politics- they are the treasures of art.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:35 PM

Actually I seem to remember reading somewhere that Irish Catholics had to practice their religion in caves, because Catholicism was illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:40 PM

I'm wasn't treating the issues of freedom and civil rights lightly, Conrad, but making a wise-ass comment on your irritating abuse of Martin Luther King Jr's name. I've been sitting here, watching you slip in MLK quotes in an effort to add an aura of legitimacy to your bigoted speeches. While you're at it, why don't you add something that will REALLY drive home how hard the poor Orangemen have it. Like: "Hitler wouldn't allow the Jews to march down the street in protest, either!" I'm sure you can do better than that. It's just sad, that's all.

And Martin Luther King Jr. was AMERICAN (Usatian?!), not African.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:42 PM

Never mind him, he's just an ass trying to inflame us..

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:58 PM

This inflammation IS getting a little old... Pass the hydrocortisone, please.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: alison
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 03:09 AM

someone mentioned further up this thread...

"Decent, law-abiding unionists/prods (and believe it or not, there are some) "

can I please change that to say, "and there are MANY, just as there are MANY decent, law-abiding republicans/catholics"... the people have voted for peace they deserve to have their wish.....

you get the same ones year after year who won't let the old hatred die... both "sides" ...it's sad to see...

my grandfather, and great grandfather were orangemen and proud of it (we used to be taken to the parades as kids to wave our flags.. I hated it)... but I doubt very much that had they been alive today and younger they'd have gone camping on the Garvaghy Road ... the situation there has just got stupid, and each year they don't fix it.. so next year they come back and we have the same circus all over again. Maybe if there wasn't so much unemployment they'd have better things to do.... just a thought..

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: sledge
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 03:53 AM

Lepus Rex, I suggest that given the nature of the problem Anusol would be more appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 05:03 AM

Someday the site of fellas parading down the street with sashes and bowler hats and bands will be as controversial and divisive as Morris Dancing is.

It will be a gift by one part ofthe community to the rest of it, like the Notting Hill Carnival, or the Durham Miners Gala.

But the nonsense about the Drumcree parade and the Croppies Lie Down message it's all about is holding back that day. And intended to do so.

The irony of it all is that this kind of carrying on by people who claim to support the Union does more to make people in England want to sever all connections with Northern Ireland than the IRA and the bombing ever did. "I don't know why we don't just leave them to sort it out among themselves" is almost certainly the overhwhelming majority opinion now.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Brakn
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:27 AM

This comical. Tradition??
The KKK would say they have a tradition and the National Front also.

It's a shame we can't let them march and then just laugh at them but then they are more to be pitied than laughed at.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:49 AM

But you should be aware of the fact that in the land of the free the KKK can hold their parades. Freedom is for everyone not just the people you agree with. Remember also that most of white america in the 50s and 60s thought of African Americans the way many on this thread seem to think of orangemen. We should not rest until all of the rivers are free and all songs are regarded primairly as art.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:49 AM

Peace in Ireland. A song challenge

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:43 AM

In the interst of truth in Inreland... Parades Commission confirms march ban

Last updated: 17:18

Orangemen will be banned from marching through a nationalist area of Portadown on Sunday, the body governing parades in Northern Ireland confirmed tonight.

The Parades Commission upheld its ruling from Monday forbidding the Orange Order from marching through the Garvaghy Road this weekend during its annual Drumcree parade following an appeal from the Portadown District.

In a two page statement in response to the Orange Order's request for a review of its decision, the Commission said it was "considerably encouraged" by the affadavit presented to them on behalf of the Portadown Orangemen by mediators in Belfast earlier today.

Following a meeting with the Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition, it also acknowledged in its second determination a "genuine desire" on the part of the nationalists to find a resolution to the dispute. However, in a reference to the street violence across Northern Ireland over the past five days since Monday's decision to ban the parade, the Commission said it had also "gone to considerable lengths to spell out that peaceful protest is not necessarily the same as lawful protest".

"We have seen examples on both sides that peaceful protest is not necessarily the same as lawful protest," the commission said.

"We have seen examples on both sides of unsuccessful efforts to maintain control over hooligan elements who own little allegiance to the principles or issues involved.

"They should and must be explicitly condemned and discouraged by everyone as a help to no side and a barrier to the eventual resolution of the overall problem."

The Parades Commission welcomed the Orange Order's offer to engage through mediators in the process involving South African mediator Mr Brian Currin to resolve the Drumcree dispute.

Noting their readiness to nominate representatives of the Portadown District to engage with the residents in a civic forum, it said it would be useful to have further clarification as to who those might be.

But it concluded: "There is no doubt that Portadown District has demonstrated, as we noted above, a very real, concerned and, we believe, genuine desire to find a resolution to the Drumcree issue.

"We unreservedly welcome their undertakings to cancel all rallies, protest parades and other related activities; to continue to engage with Brian Currin; to urge others towards a peaceful resolution without violence; to take part in any civic forum; and to have a limited parade.

"The problem lies in the sequence they seek - namely a change of determination for July 9, following which all these undertakings would be implemented, in contrast to our road map which envisaged a number of events occurring before and leading to a parade.

"Having considered all the available information against the factors contained in our Guidelines document, we confirm our decision detailed in the determination dated July 3, 2000."

The decision came hours after Portadown District Master Mr Harold Gracey refused to condemn loyalist violence in the wake of the original ban on the march.

Mr Gracey told the BBC at Drumcree: "I am not going to condemn violence because (Sinn Fein leader) Gerry Adams never condemns it."

"I am not saying I am happy with violence. I never have been and anyone who knows me knows that but this country, the Protestant people of this country and the loyalist community are sick to death of what is happening to this country and have been over the past 30 years."

He said he had warned Mr Currin, who has been attempting to establish a talks process between the rival sides, that if they were barred from marching, then he should leave.

"If they let us down (the road) on July 9, then anything is possible but if they don't, I told him he may as well pack his bags and go back to South Africa," he said.

SDLP minister in the Stormont executive Ms Brid Rodgers said Mr Gracey's refusal to condemn the violence would be deplored by unionists and nationalists across the province.

Sinn Fein's MLA Ms Dara O'Hagan claimed Mr Gracey's comments proved "how far gone and how lost the Orange Order, particularly in Portadown, is on this issue".

- PA News
Slan
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:44 AM

Many centuries ago a mediocre carpenter said it best:

Love one another.

Turn the other cheek.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

He was working from a tradition that said Thou shall not Kill.

I am not a Christian but these are some of the main tenets of my life. I go thought this world wondering why these don't figure more highly in the lives of others as well. Especially in Northern Ireland. If they would listen to their religion and forget about the worngs done in their history they could find peace for their children.

Unfortunately this is the most difficult path of all. This path requires more courage than facing the bullets and bombs of the other side. This path requires ne to put down the weapons and stand clear of the hate. It requires both sides to learn to love one another and do unto one another as they would have done unto them.

Until this happens I have made some resolutions in my life. I will not wear orange or green on St Patrick's day. I will never sing the songs (from either side) of the Irish conflict. And I will never donate to any charity concerned with Ireland unless I am positive that money will go to the needy and not go for weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:54 AM

Also in the interest of truth inb Ireland:
Your inovacation of Dr. Kings name in defence of paraded bigotry is offensive. I cannot recall an incidence where people were beaten to death for crossing the street in front of a Southern Christian Leadership sponsored parade, but from Edenburgh to Belfast one takes ones life at risk to do just that. In point of fact, you begin to hit the nail on the head when you say that the KKK has the right to march in the US. The comparison there to the Orange Lodge's rights are much more proper. Like your cousins, the KKK, (who also have some music of a sort) you have the right to march or wave your hands until that right adversely impacts on the rights of others. As judge Learned Hand once said, "you have the right to wave your hand until your hand meets another's face." There are cercumstances where the damage and danger of KKK marches is mitigated by manner and place controls here in the US, as seen in recent NYC court decisions. As long as Orange lodges are dens of bigotry, I will not do, as has been sugested the sensible thing to not enguage in public condemnation of them. One day the KKK and Orange lodges may join the Hitler Youth on the scrap heep of history, speed the day, until then, there will be a need to control the damage they seek to do.
If you were truely concerned with Peace in Ireland, you would rededicate your parade to the future, not use it as a way of keeping alive the bigorty of the past, then perhaps there would be a place for the Orange Orders in a progressive future.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:05 AM

For more truth in Ireland...
The Garvaghy Roads Residents Association's homepage is:

http://www.garvaghyroad.org/
Slan
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:29 AM

Just a suggestion:

Construct a wide bypass or a deep underpass to avoid those residential areas where the marches are not appreciated.

"Responsibilities are what we owe to ourselves. Rights are what other people believe we owe to them."

---Varindra Vittachi.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Ritchie
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:01 AM

Terry K, You can't detest all Geordies aa mean there's been loads of good entertaining ones f'instance.... Roy Chubby Brown...what a laugh..Harry Pearson..one of our finest young writers..Paul Rodgers..great voice..Vin Garbitt..tremendous talent..Chris Rea..brilliant guitarist..David Coverdale..another good voice..Wendy Richards..great actress.. hey the list goes on but who have the Boro got ? whey only Gazza comes readably t'mind..

regards Ritchie from Gateshead.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:26 AM

The Garvaghy Raod Residents Coalition Homepage (Click Here)

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:16 PM

To continue your list of recommended reading from the other side.(web resources below)

No one is talking of the right to walk violently. We are talking about a peaceful law abiding parade. Any interferance in peaceful parading is wrong. You will find that the orangemen have been open to negotiation and have negotiated before each time negotiations ended with a denial of basic rights. That is not negotiation. This time they having tried in the past are right to insist on peaceful march first conditions later. The entire concept of having to speak against violence is silly. Jerry Adams has never condenmed any violent act on the part of his movement. No one else should be held to a higher standard.

As with the civil rights movements the loyalist response is broken into two camps which do not communicate. One does not control the other. No organization should be responsible for each and every fringe of wackos who wish to have violence. This is a police matter with the police and not the Orange order being responsible for public safety.

The Orange order is clearly on record against violence.

While one would generally like to condenm street violence without analysis it is important to realize that street violence is not always senseless but represents a deep frustration in this case with the contiued denial of rights. When republicans resorted to violence and threat thereof the government caved in and banned what was a peaceful parade and that parade even agreed not to play in front of churches and to limit use of regalia and to ban outsiders from taking part-it was not the sort of parade of the exagerated descriptions on this thread. Is not the government telling the man in the street that violence is the key to progress?

Don't Just Talk About it!!!!!  Know About it!!!
Get the information about Drumcree directly  from the source!
Click Here and be Accurately Informed.  For direct breaking news 
updates Click Here

For my orange pages-
click

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:21 PM

The Orange Order may clearly be on record as being against violence, but you all sure have a funny way of showing it. Lip service is one thing, actions another.

Amergin

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:24 PM

For the Record- Direct and Specific Evidence that the Parade Commission Favors one Community while Denying rights to Orangement

How are Orangemen Tolerant?

On the 15th of August 1998 the Parades Commission allowed a parade by the Ancient Order of Hibernians which is a Catholic organisation to proceed through the prodominetly Protestant town of Kilkeel in Co Down.

The Orange Order had no objection to this parade taking place taking into account CIVIL AND RELIGIOUS LIBERTIES FOR ALL. WHAT THEY DID OBJECT TO WAS THAT THIS PARADE WAS PERMITTED TO PROCEED WHILE ORANGEMEN IN PORTADOWN WHERE NOT ALLOWED THE SAME BASIC RIGHTS. To this end the Orange Order did not engage in demonstrations against this traditional parade in Kilkeel.

It was however regretable that many of the bands on parade in Kilkeel broke conditions laid down by the Parades Commission and to date no action has been taken. The Orange Order would again voice its concerns that the unelected QUANGO Parades Commission is incapable of acting in an impartial manner and would seem to act in a positve manner with those who are still engaged in violence.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: bbelle
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 02:16 PM

Gosh ... "QUANGO" is what my folks called my sister, Robin, before she was born (those were the days people took their chances on boy/girl) ... whodda thunk it?

moonchild

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 03:42 PM

The simple and straightforward way of sorting it out would be for everyone to agree that parades by any organisation that is not open to membership by members of any religion will only walk down any street if the people living in that street have said that they do not object to it.

Too simple and straightforward. But if it was put to a referendum, it'd get at least as big a majority as the Good Friday agrement did.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:30 PM

Conrad, boyo, at least in this thread, I choose to feed you no more.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,appalled
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:42 PM

In light of his continued posts,perhaps Conrad is just taking the mickey- difficult for me to believe someone could be such a pig-ignorant, blind, dogmatic, obnoxious fuckwit in real life.

But I've been wrong before.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: bbelle
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:57 PM

That word "fuckwit" is beginning to grow on me. Think I'll add it to my vocab. This is not to diminish your appalledness, guest appalled, for I do agree with your thinking on this one.

Say ... Does a "diminished" thread have the same properties as a "diminished" chord. Sorry for the threadcreep ... I just like to know stuff ...

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:58 PM

Amergin, Intolerance of catholicism was by no means confined to Ireland within the British Isles. Neither was having to celebrate Mass in caves the worst of what catholics had to endure in Ireland. The penal code was about the meanest, most discriminatory legislation you could imagine.

But when it comes to barbarity in the name of Christianity, I doubt whether the reformed churches ever got to base camp.

Queen Mary had hundreds of prods burnt at the stake; the Spanish and French inquisitions did that and worse (like crucifying them back-to-back on doors) to thousands; religions, cultures and even civilisations were destroyed in (now) Latin America in the name of catholicism, etc,etc.

And priests all over the world having, through the confessional, pryed into the private lives of a gullible laity, turn out in many instances (hundreds in the USA alone) to be at least as perverted, evil and downright hypocritical as any of their parishioners.

When we marvel at the unionist fear of a united Ireland, it's worth remembering that until only the last few years, divorce and contraceptives were illegal in Ireland, and the works of Frank O'Connor, Edna O'Brien and hundreds more were banned. Dr Noel Browne had to resign from government in the fifties for bringing forward legislation for family welfare, which the church saw as an intrusion on to its own territory. And attending Trinity College Dublin was punishable by excommunication. I am not making this up.

Broadly I'm with the nationalists in Northern Ireland, but it's nothing like as simple as the green lobby often presents it. And paradoxically I have no time for nationalism in any other context.

Sorry to be longwinded, but within the context of this thread I'm peddling a fairly minority line, so I hope you'll be forbearing.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:04 PM

Sorry, I got my slash the wrong way round. I hope my incompetence with html doesn't run on through the rest of the thread, or - worse - go on to contaminate all succeeding threads.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Terry K
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:12 PM

Ritchie from Gateshead

Good to hear a semi-sensible view expressed in this otherwise nonsensical thread. However, you suffer from certain inaccuracies, to wit;

Roy Chubby Brown is from Thornaby, 2 miles from Middlesbrough and nowhere near Geordieland.

Harry Pearson I don't know - perhaps I should?

Vin Garbutt is from Skelton, just to the east of the Boro - he and I were at Wilton ICI together as apprentices - again, he has no Geordie in him at all

Chris Rea is of the Rea's ice cream family based in Middlesbrough and Redcar (where I went to school)

David Coverdale I don't know

Wendy Richards soon lost any Geordie accent when she went to Albert Square!!

Gazza, the only one you ascribe to the Boro is a true Geordie born and bred - what he's doing at the Boro, God only knows (do you want him back??? - thought not)

But hey, this is better than all that spurious Irish nonsense that's been done to death so often in the past and truth to tell, we Boro lads probably don't hate Geordies at all - my wife's family come from Gateshead.

On reflection, that could explain a lot...........

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:25 PM

So Wendy Richards "soon lost" any Geordie accent when she went to Albert Square? Well that definitely wasn't a Georgie accent she had when she sang along with Mike Sarne on "Come outside," oh, maybe 20 years before Eastenders (which kicked off in 1984 I think). And thank God for the thread creep.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:27 PM

Conrad:
Here is an idea. In the US, the KKK claimes not to be anti catholic anti jewish and anti black, however, their traditions and contued actions show otherwise. Now, we in the nationalist community DO remember and honor that the Protestant comunity has commited unprovoked and irrational acts of kindness, such as the building of one of the major Catholic churches in Belfast, if memory serves, about one hundred years ago. In stead of the emphasis on the pissing match of a parade (and by the way, I oppose the Saint Patricks Day Parade in NY as long as it is anti gay,- as a straight Republican) How bout an energetic and well organised exchange of good works for each other's community in stead, and AFTER such acts of forgiveness and progres, we wont mind marching in each other's back yard, because the threat will be gone.
Have a drink on the idea and a song or two on the idea?
Slan
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:49 PM

Fionn, great post!!

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:41 PM

Dear Conrad
Those who have voice opposition to your opinions on this thread do not understand you or your argument. Thay have not studied your statements and have refused to put themselves into your situation.

But you have made your case very clearly to me. You don't want to convince your opponents of the just cause of your standpoint. You want to convince yourself that you are right. That is the real objective of your thread. And when uncalculated abuse is hurled back at you it gives you reassurance that you may be right despite your own doubts.

But do not let the abuse fool you. Look closely into your own writing and you will see clearly the traps set to inflame others into deluding you.

But I shall not let you down in such a way. You have convinced me beyond doubt that you really do not believe your arguments to be correct. Do not chide yourself overtly at this realisation but dream... dream like the man you and I admire so much, the late Dr. Martin Luther King. Dream his dream of the time when "Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, Black and White" can all sing united together, "Free at Last, Free at Last, Thank God Almighty, Free at Last".

Frank McGrath

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Roy Buchanan
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:46 PM

(What key did I play The Messiah Will Come Again in?)

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: bbelle
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:50 PM

Are you referring to "Pat" Buchanan?

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:45 PM

Back in 1969 I was on the march from Belfast to Derry thta got ambushewd at Burntollet. So I sympathise with the feeling that there's something wrong if people can't walk in procession down the streets of their own country.

And I can understand the feelings of the people who came out and threw the hammers and stones and beat marchers who got separated. Decent enough people, no doubt in ordinary day to day life, ordinary Protestants, the kind who will be hurling bricks and worse at members of the RUC and British soldiers this weekend.

Because there is something wrong when people can't walk in procession down the streets. And what's wrong is the meaning which is given to marches, and asserted by them.

A march in that context is a way of showing who is in charge, who is top dog. And that was how the people who attacked the Burntollet march saw it - a bunch of the other lot exerting a claim to extend its authority into territory that wasn't theirs.

And that is just how the people in the Garvaghy Road see the Drunmcree march.

Well, in the case of the Burntollet march it wasn't that at all, it was a march about Civil Rights and an end to the division within Northern Ireland (not the division within Ireland - that wasn't what we were marching for at all, and there were more than a few people on the march who didn't even see it as something they hoped for in the future.) But the misunderstanding was an easy one to make, given the traditions of the country.

And I'm sure that there are those among the people raring to march at Drumcree who do not in fact see this as being for the old reasons at all - they tell themselves it's not a question of showing the Teagues who is in charge at the end of the day, it's a way of showing that the Protestant people of Northern Ireland are not to be treated as second class citizens, fit only for the dustbin of history.

But the meaning of the march can't be altered as simply as that. It's been a march of domination for too long to be turned round like that into an innocent assertion iof dignity. And the opportunities have been rejected which might have helped the people in the Garvaghy Road reinterpret it in a way that would make it accepted as a non-threatening expression of cultural identity. "Croppies Lie Down" is what the march is still saying, and they won't.

When the marches of domination are a thing of the past there'll be room for the celebrations of cultural identity, and the bands and the paraphernalia. But that day hasn't come yet. It will. The madness at Drumcree just holds it back. But it might hold it back a long long time if it succeeds in putting a torch to the spirit of Good Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:46 PM

Did I miss something years ago? I don't recall The Rev. Martin Luther King [or SNCC or the NAACP, etc.] rioting in the streets, throwing petrol bombs, wantonly destroying property and injuring police.

Mentioning his name in conjunction with and to condone the recent deplorable behavior is one helluva perversion of fact which I, for one, do find offensive.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE PORTADOWN RACES
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:30 PM

Ok Someting for the Geordies enjoy!

The Portadown Races

(Tune- The Blaydon Races)

I went to Portadown Races, 'twas on the tenth of July,
Twenty hundred naught on a summer's efternoon.
I tyuk the bus fra Balmbra's an' she was heavy laden.
Away we went along Garvaghy that's on the road to Drumcree.

Chorus - Oh! lads ye shud of seen us gannin',
We pass'd the foaks along Garvaghy road Just as they wor stannin';
Thor wes lots o' tommies and taigies there, all wi' frownin faces,
We wor Gawn alang the Garvaghy Road To see the Portadown Races.

We flew past tanks and baracades and up to the top of the hill
Just gannin doon te the chapel itself the bus wheel flew off there.
The lassies lost their sashes off, an' the veils that hide their faces
An' aw got two black eyes an' a broken nose in gan te Portadown Races.

Chorus
When we gat the wheel put on, away we went agyen,
But them that had their noses broke they cam back ower hyem;
Sum went to Johnny Adair an' uthers to Master Saulters Chorus Now when we got to The Church thor wes bonny gam begun;
There were fower-and-twenty on the 'bus, man, hoo they danced and sung;
They called on me to sing a sang, I sung them the Boyne Water
Aw danced a jig an' swung me twig the day I went to Portadown.

Chorus
We flew across the Garvaghy Road reet into Portadown toon The clerik he was callin' there they called him Revrend Eames To gan an' cave to Tony Blair's Shew at the Parliament in Lunnin

Chorus: The rain it poor'd all the day, an' myed the groons quite muddy
Pete Mandelson had a white hat on-they war shootin' "Whe stole the cuddy"
There wes spice stalls an' Flannagan shows, and an' aud wives sellin ciders,
An' a chep wvi' a hapenny roond aboot shootin' "Now, me boys, for Gracey." - Parody of the Blaydon Races, Conrad Bladey, July 2000

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:36 PM

An excerpt from the AP...great way to express and celebrate one's culture, eh? Like I said...the stupidity brings no one validity and no respect will be given to such tactics...it is sickening...

In the latest riot statistics Friday, police said 37 officers and two soldiers had been wounded during the course of 145 attacks on their forces, including a dozen gun attacks. They had no statistics on injured civilians.

Police said they had seized 268 gasoline bombs and arrested 55 people.

In addition children's schools, Catholic and Protestant, have been bombed and burned, as well as homes of families. There can be no justification for any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: mg
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:56 PM

this is what I think, and I am Catholic...and I don't know enough of the situation to make any comments but I will. I think that in theory, if it has long historical roots especially, and it is tied in to honoring the dead of WWI somehow if I recall, then it should be allowed. It is too scary for people to say who they will and will not allow on public streets. They may own their houses and shops, but they don't own the streets. Now, in practice, in reality, it might be deemed too dangerous for public safety and permits denied on those grounds. Heck, I'd like to see the Protestants have a nice parade and everyone enjoying some music and setting up hot dog stands and getting more prosperous as a result of it...

and speaking of which...if someone could only approach this from economic grounds...money wants to flow to Northern Ireland but is blocked by the fear of violence...if people's self-interest could be appealed to it might move things along a lot faster.. mg

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:13 AM

Actually the marches have nothing to do with honoring the dead of WWI, it has everything to do with how protestant King William defeated the Catholic King James (2nd?) at the Battle of the Boyne...

Amergin

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 02:21 AM

Without getting into the discussion on any specifics of the situation in Northern Ireland, what I find objectionable to the original post, is that it seems designed to do nothing more than inflame, get a nasty response, and then say, in effect, "See what we're up against?" I also find objectionable the original post's invoking of M.L. King, Jr. in the context of the movement Conrad advocates. I don't know all the details, but I do know that a march without violence does not make it comparable to Gandhian/King nonviolence. King's was done within a moral context that included loving one's adversaries while opposing their actions, and of using nonviolent action to build community as well as to confront opposition. Is that what the Orange movement is trying to do? Is the title of your post designed to state your case AND put out an olive branch to Irish Catholics, or even understand their plight? Will it help Catholics understand YOUR plight? Doesn't look that way to me.

chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 04:42 AM

MaryG - good point. Two years ago, one of my op/ed pieces was about that, after a shameful fire-bombing took the lives of three young boys in Ballymoney.

There had been some national press about a major company (never named) which was considering an economic boycott. I advocated the following:

When the world finally became aware of and decided to do something about apartheid in South Africa, things changed. It took some time, protests by students, and finally, boycotts by governments and individuals.

...it is time for individuals, businesses, human rights organizations, church officials of all faiths and their congregations, and governments to get serious about sending a message of no tolerance for the hatred and killing which has pitted countrymen against countrymen in a land of such beauty, history, soul, and sorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:02 AM

What a cheerful little song - and here is the context for it from todays Observer: "The spectre of sectarian murder haunts Northern Ireland again after a warning that loyalist terrorists plan to kill a Catholic a day if today's planned Orange Order march at Drumcree is blocked."

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Astorkhan
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:07 AM

I could not read the whole thing, Conrad. This is too much to bear.

I'd like to remind you that anyone's freedom of WHATEVER stop where anyone else's begins. This is the reason why proselytes of any kind were finally erradicated by western civilisation, eventhough much too late to my own taste. Or were they? The word is still in the dictionary. To me, from my far-away-from-everything-little-village, provocation like this stupid march in northern ireland is just an excuse to maitain violence in part of one of the so-called occidental democracies. I even heard that the democracy in question was selling training periods for armed forces from other democracies in northern Ireland. What a nice way to make a quick quid! What if this march was actually the result of a manipulation from... well, fill up the blanks so that money can flow in and that armies from ...futb can have the training they "need". What if papranoid Ludlum was right? After all, one of the most likely scenarii for forthcoming conflicts is civil war.

May the 4th B with U

JL

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Astorkhan
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:14 AM

... and by the way, the Orange were just opportunistic dutch mercenaries who "worked" for whoever paid best. They even worked for the french aha

JL

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:06 AM

MrGrath

Thanks for the posting of the context from the Observer. I guess that alone really shows just how much peace the Orange contingent and Conrad the peasant really wants.

They want peace for all???

Sailor Dan

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:39 AM

And, it's all in the name of religion. Trying to get through to conrad reminds me of an old saying: ON A DEAD MANS DOOR, YOU CAN KNOCK FOREVER.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: sledge
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:48 AM

Unfortunatley gents, his kind of biggoted raving has, and probably will continue to generate far too many dead men.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 09:08 AM

Written just 16 years after the 1690 battle in Portadown, I still think Jonathan Swift's quote is the best concerning the whole mess:

We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:49 AM

*The Poratadown marches have nothing to do with the battle of the boyne and the 12th celebrations. The parade simply goes to the church for a service commemorating the sacrifices of so many lives at the battle of the Somme in WWI

**I would ammend Swift's quote to read "but not enough government to be fair" The reason we broke from england in 1776 is still there- the government does not truly fairly represent its people yet.

***dead men are created as much by poor law enforcement as by anything else. The british government has a basic hands off approach to the hot pursuit of terrorism. The government knew in past years that republicans were manufacturing hundreds of petrol bombs yet did nothing to arrest those concerned. The RUC does not arrest violent rock throwing protesters it basically stands their and takes it.

****The British government blocked the parade largely because of the threat of violence from republicans. The solution would have been to enforce the peace.

*****Remember also that the Orange Order has already agreed to severely modify their customary parade traditions. No offensive songs only religious hymns common to both traditions, limitations on regailia, no playing in front of churches and careful self policing to eliminate hatred. The last parade or even last two parades which were allowed to proceed followed those rules so a good record was established. In a free country there should be nothing wrong with such a peaceful traditional act. But we must remember that under britain Northern Ireland is not free for anyone- protestant or catholic.

******When you quote loyalist paramilitaries you are quoting terrorists who are outside of the orange order. The orange order is extremely conservative in regard to any association or statement concerning terror. Loyalist paramilitaries are the same thugs as SinfeinIRA. In regard to violence however one must listen to Ronnie Flannagan head of the RUC when he said on todays bbc news when he said in effect- I undertand your anger at what has happened (meaning the denial of basic rights and unfair acts by the parade commission...) As our own american founding fathers point out in their writings a people can only be pushed so far by an unfair government. Wasn't it Jefferson who said that the tree of liberty is fertilized by patriot's blood? At some point liberty is worth the sacrifice and that point is to be determined by the people of Northern Ireland and not self appointed liberal minded folk from outside.

******The Orange Order did not fight at the battle of the boyne as it was not in existence. In the battle mercinaries were to be found on both sides. If you wish to cite history, learn it- see my pages- Click here

********Basic freedoms do not stop anywhere. A public road is a public road. All should have the right to freely and peacefully walk it. Note that the catholic parade was given the right and was not protested-even when it dissobeyed the commission- the double standard is an important part of the issue.

******************The Orange order has engaged the process and has worked hard to appease the republican community. If you think that folks wanted civil rights marches in their neighborhood peaceful or otherwise you are very wrong. MLK did not ask permission of anyone. The situations are absolutely the same. And remember too that as the Orange must put up with the violent loyalist fringes so too the peaceful civil rights folk had to deal with urban rampages very similar to those in NI and infact a lot worse.

******************************Buying peace with money is not the way to go. It is a shame that officials always mention the impact of protest on tourism when they should concentrate upon the impact of government upon freedom. When government angers a wide population to a high level something is not being done to represent them fairly. Lets have freedom and justice first and worry about tourism later. The attempt by the USA and other countries to pay off those seeking freedom with economic investment is a tragedy. There is no reason for violence based only on poverty.

All for now!

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:50 PM

"False are the bickering reigns
Of 'Honor', of 'Homeland' of 'War'."

...Bob Beers, "Seasons of Peace"

In every country and culture there are groups which promote "celebrations of their history" which they know in their hearts are mostly "in your face" dares to their historical enemies....it happens in the USA, it happens in Africa, it happens in Latin America....and it sure as hell happens in Ireland! It happens about soccer games, it happens about languages, it happens about labor unions, it happens about 'clans', it happens about racial groups, it happens about religions, it happens about family feuds.....The flavor and details are different for each group, but it is a situation where the participants have mastered the art of even lying to themselves about their motives. Even when a 'large' % of the opposing groups are WILLING to abstain, there are those who will use whatver means necessary to inflame, incite and prolong the pain.

in EVERY claim and counter-claim there are bits of truth, and MUCH leaving out parts of the truth. There is only one way to stop, and that is..... to stop.........

"Of course it was a just war...my son died in it!"
.....Nietzsche.."Also Sprach Zarasthustra"

"It all depends on whose ox is being gored"
.....old saying..

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:54 PM

The KKK insists thet have the right to march through a Jewish neighborhood. OK, suppose they do have that right. The real question is why do they want to?

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Appalled, formerly; now annoyed-
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 02:03 PM

******************The Orange order has engaged the process and has worked hard to appease theRepublican community. If you think that folks wanted civil rights marches in their neighborhood peaceful or otherwise you are very wrong. MLK did not ask permission of anyone. The situations are absolutely the same.... so too the peaceful civil rights folk had to deal with urban rampages very similar to those in NI and in fact a lot worse.

Conrad, this is absolute bullshit, boyo, and if you dont know it, you should.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Melani
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 02:37 PM

May I call to the attention of all "House of Orange", the last song Stan Rogers wrote. It's recorded on "From Fresh Water". It's also listed in the database, but when I clicked on it, nothing was there. I'm not very computer-literate. Anyway, check it out. It addresses this issue better than I could.

It's one thing to celebrate your own culture and another to do it in such a way as to intimidate others. Humans have a long history of incredible stupidity and bad behavior toward each other. It's too bad we can't evolve a little farther.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM

Conrad, my brother:
I do believe that you are a man of conviction and good intentions, but that you are a victem of your people's history. I spent mylife working with Dr. Kings inner circle. As a civil rights lawyer, a political scientist working on a number of issues, including civil rights in Ireland, I apreciate your interest in Dr. King's methodology and beliefs. I urge you to read Parting the Waters about the formation of the civil rights movement, and if you ever are planing to come to the US, I would like to introduce you to veterines of the American Civil Rights movement. You will find that they ALL to my experice identify with those who marched non-violently at Burntollett and in no way identify with the Organge Order. Can you begin a movement within the structure of the Orange lodge to begin to carry on the work of the Sothern Christian leadership? I can't say, it is like Eldrich Cleaver saying that a United States without racism would be imbarassed to still call itself the United States. However, to begin with, you have to understand, it is not just marching that makes your movement like Dr. Kings, it is what you are marching for. (that for which you are marching for the gamaticisans on Mud cat). Marching for your right to be the majority oppressor is not the same as marching for equal housing - the vote - equal employment, all the things that were marched for at Burntollett. You can march for equal rights of employment, however, but then the Orange lodges would have to be marching for the rights of Catholics, and would they still be the Orange Lodges. If indeed an Orange Lodge had the courage to march for the rights of Catholics to be completely free in thier land and yours, then perhaps you could say that the Orange lodges were begining to inherit the torch Dr. King passed to us. Give it some thought, brother, and maybe you will be someone to remember in the way we remember our brother Martin.
Peace and good wishes
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 06:53 PM

Conrad, you're trying my patience with the MLK connection. Protestants/unionists in Northern Ireland are deprived of no basic human rights. Unlike those for whom MLK spoke. And unlike catholics unfortunate enough to have been in Northern Ireland during the 50 years of Stormont. Have you forgotten that the Stormont prime minister Lord Brookeborough, admittedly incenced by the kidnapping of his son, stated in 1955 that no self-respecting protestant should employ a catholic? In response to the outrage that this provoked, he made matters worse by saying he had really meant to say that no-one should employ anyone they couldn't trust. Have you forgotten that James Craig called Stormont "a protestant parliament for a protestant people"?

Was your heart, like mine, with the NICRA activists who marched across Craigavon Bridge in Derry in October 1968, in protest against any number of legitimate grievances - gerrymandering, employment disscrimination, housing-list rigging and more?

Incidentally, Amergin, I too was on that New Year's march to Derry that was ambushed at Burntollet, not as a participant but a journo. I saw RUC reservists (B specials) join in the assault on the student marchers. But I'm afraid some of your comments, like some other postings here, border on the facile. And when it comes to the objective of the Drumcree parade, you are plain wrong, and Mary Garvey is right.

Which reminds me, both Alison and Mary deserve special respect for looking beyond their own backgrounds and seeing the other point of view - albeit that they come at it from different "sides". In my experience there are very few who can do this - and they are always worth listening to.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:27 PM

Yes, it's true enough that "Protestants/unionists in Northern Ireland are deprived of no basic human rights." But it's also true that some of them are frightened of losing the power that they believe protects them from being a persecuted minority in Ireland. They feel increasingly isolated. They know that most people in England by now have very little sympoathy at all with them, and would long to be rid of any conection with them.

And they know that in a few years time they will be in amionority in Northern Ireland, and that there will be nothing to prevent an end to Partition as things go.

That's a frightening situation for people who have been brought up thinking that the only thing that protects them is the Union, and their ability to dominate their corner of Ireland.

And those are things to try to understand.

The truth is they have nothing to fear in an end to division within Northern Ireland, and in time to an end to division in Ireland, whatever form that takes. (Within a European Union where the regions are increasingly going to be more important for some things than the nations, all kmionds of possibilities are there. A reunited Ulster as a separate European region would have a lot to be said for it.)

And a lot of people from the Unionist background do indeed see it that way. But it's going to take time for those that don't to disentangle themselves from the distorted history that still imprisons them. What is needed is to have people who have roots in the Unionist and Loyalist traditions to help in that process. And in Northern Ireland there are those who are doing that.

Irish people abroad, whether their sympathies are Republican or Unionist, have a right to take an interest in what happens in Ireland. But not to try to stir up the hatreds that their brothers and sisters back in Ireland are risking their lives every day to move away from.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:38 PM

And the numbers of Orangemen at Drumcree are getting
smaller
and smaller
and smaller
and smaller
Keep up the good work Conrad...
Your logic and posturing is so convincing that soon you will isolate yourself into oblivion. Bit by little bit you are eroding your own reason to exist and you will realise that all these contorted "facts" you expound are really just to fool yourself.
You are certainly not fooling anyone else.

Frank McGrath

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:34 PM

Frank, as usual, you are spot on. Thanks for giving me pause to think. Both you and the other McGrath (of Harlow) have put a fine pencil to it. I dtír na ndall is rí fear na leathshúile, buachaillí.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,formerly appalled, now AMUSED
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:49 PM

Firstly, a thank you to both the McGraths for interjecting some sense & sanity.

Secondly, I should have checked before, But *Conrad Bladey #1 Fuckwit is writing from Baltimore, Maryland,USA!! and egging the Orange Mayhem on from a safe, 3000 mile distance. I was wrong before; this chappie is more than an arsehole, he's an armchair, dilletante arsehole, and all!!

Would be really funny, if it wasn't so disgusting. Get a life, Conrad. Please.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: little john cameron
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:57 PM

Weel done amused,ah had that suspicion myself.And the two McGraths are right tae. Ah hope that is the end o'it. LJC

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 09:49 PM

It isn't of course.......For Conrad #1 Pissant will continue babbling til he tires of this thread and then will launch another gem. That's the history. Some are less noticed because they have a strictly musical title. Timing in this case demanded a more open piece of rampant stupidity. I asked in the very first post up there to let this turkey alone, but I knew it'd never happen. If all of you hadn't responded, good old Conrad Bloody would have kept on refreshing with additional crappola ad infinitum. He has a long and storied past on the net and that's just how he works, so don't give a thought to "ignoring" him....It doesn't work and his "ignorance" knows no bounds. I generally just watch him go along, but he's getting real old around here with me.

Ignorant dissent, thy name is Conrad.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: alison
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:05 PM

If you want to sing a song...... try this one

North and South of the River

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:14 PM

Alison, you demonstrate your Irishness over and over again. And you prove again that this has nothing to do with where folks say their prayers.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:22 PM

This news excerpt seems particularly apt:

"Recently the Washington Post asked readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding, subtracting or changing one letter, and supply a new definition. Here are some recent winners:

Ignoranus, n.: A person who's both stupid and an asshole."

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Amused
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:36 PM

Hey, Boys & Girls!!

Unless he's changed it since January's postings, Conrad #1 Ignorauns' e-mail is [e-mail]

Let's all express our sincere appreciation, direct, by sending him the largest graphic files our browsers can attach!!

Maybe once a day for the next, oh, month or so?

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 11:33 PM

no...I think he has the message by now...too bad he had to start this, because he has posted a LOT of neat songs and has provided a real service. I guess everyone has their blind spots....

I wonder if he really thought that NO SURRENDER in the title was a non-threatening post?

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 11:47 PM

I agree on the songs and the great number he has posted Bill. But he knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he started this. I think that's why this one hit me harder. Generally Conrad's rantings are buried within a music thread and he has a few who whack him around regularly (to no avail) there and then. This one had no other meaning or significance except to stir things up.

Kinda reminds you of ol Garg, doesn't it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:21 AM

Oh, Gargoyle, come in Gargoyle. Can you hear me Gargoyle, over? Gargoyle will you come back give us your take on this, please. Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:01 AM

Pleae lets not get into that business of sending harassing emails and so forth. That's nver the way to deal with that kind of stuff, and where does it end? All of us annoy other people at times and are open to that, and it just undermines the whole structure of the internet and the Mudcat.

Ignore Conrad, or explain where he's wrong if you'd rather. But using email as a weapon like that - and verbal abuse on the Mudcat for that matter - just feeds into the paranoia which is what the whole thing is about. Both on the Mudcat and on the streets of Northern Ireland.It's a kind of a reward

In fact I'm highly susopicious of a GUEST making the kind of suggestion that appeared under the label "GUESTamused" just now (and remember, that could be anybody in the world with any kind of agenda, it needn't even be the same one who signed on with that name earlier).

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:22 AM

McGrath of Harlow, you're spot on. If just a few people read and heed your posting, then Conrad will have done us a favour by starting it.

But Little John, I am dismayed that you should give credence to GUEST:Appalled/Amused. Anyone is entitled to spout bile in this forum (thank you Max!), but that this guest dare do it only from behind a cloak of anonymity is shameful. In fact this guest's last posting goes way beyond bile and - far worse than anything else I have seen at The Mudcat - is a cowardly attack on a fellow member who has done no more than inflict upon us his own opinion, under his own name. Question his opinion by all means, as I certainly do, but let's not just hate the guy.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:26 AM

Well said, Frank. Your posting had not shown up when I sent mine.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Bagpuss
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:43 AM

Haven't had time to read all of this, but I would just like to put my twopennorth in. I am a catholic (of sorts) and I have no objection to Orange marches. And nobody is asking them to stop marching - just to stop marching in predominantly Catholic areas. OK, so some routes are traditional, but it wouldn't hurt to change them a bit if it means a peaceful march. When the Orange order keep demanding the right to walk down particular streets it just shows everyone that the real reason for the parades is not tradition, but bigotry and intimidation.

I would love for the Orange order to prove me wrong and change their routes.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Amused
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 10:47 AM

I should have thought that Conrad would be the first to spring to my defense for exercicing the U.S. constitutional right of free speech!!which includes the right to send mail to anyone who voluntarily provides their address on-line. And I should also think that the choice not to reveal a "true identity" as also a right supported on this forum, or only members would be permitted to post: should you wish that to be the case, Max can easily do it- otherwise, please dont continue to whinge about it! For that matter, how, exactly, do we KNOW that is Conrad's "true identity", or anyone elses for that matter? Have background checks been done? As far as cowardice is concerned, Conrad's encouragement of mayhem from across the Atlantic seems a bit more craven then him being called, and rightfully so, a fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Andy Green
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 11:11 AM

As someome who narrowly missed being blown up by the IRA, (three minutes later into the pub in birmingham in 1974) I find the bigotted behaviour of the Irish difficult to empathise with. But I believe in free speech etc and if thats the way they want to be - so be it. The Orange men are so fixed in their opinions, we can only hope the next generation are better educated. But don't hold your breath. Usually when I see threads like this I avoid them. I find it annoying hearing all those who sympathise with the IRA. How outraged were you when that Office building in Oklahoma was blown up over a year ago, or when some idiot shoots up a school - its the same for ordinary people all over england and Ireland - there is no political justification and its a bloody shame that most of the money for the ammunition and training comes from the good old US of A
I'm ranting, I know, no apologies though.
Andy

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: barrygeo
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:06 PM

Conrad Has it not dawned on the Orange brethern that the scenes in Drumcree can only reflect badly on themselves. Drumcree could be resolved if the brethern would enter negotioations with the lcal community. This method has successfully resolved most traditional routes. The reason given for not enterring negotiations is because Brendain O'Cionnaith is a former convicted terrorist yet the Brethern freely use Johnny Adair also a convicted terrorist to organise protests. How can Loyalists be considered sincere when they refuse to consider reform of the RUC on one day and throw petrol bombs at them the next. Only by building links at local community level will resolve the Drumcree situation. The inflammatory rhetoric of the likes of you and those who post against you can only make things worse. For those of you who dont live in Northern Ireland aggravation of this situation may cause deaths. Think first!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:07 PM

Well said Harlow McGrath
Particularly on the point of email harassment. Marching down the internet road with massive emails designed to harass the recipient is no different to demanding the freedom to march through Nationalist areas of Drumcree. These are both forms of unwanted message delivery which perform no good other than give perverse thumb-nosing pleasure to the messengers at the expense of the recipients.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: L R Mole
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:12 PM

As Jimmy Breslin once wrote,"For a little island,it has caused so much pain."

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:24 PM

Always remember, when someone you don't know suggests you do something stupid, there's such as thing an agent provocateur... And I think we've got one here.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: barrygeo
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:39 PM

It seems I find myself in agreement with David Trimble.

Trimble calls on Orangemen to enter talks 13:31 Northern Ireland's First Minister Mr David Trimble today added his voice to calls for Orangemen to enter into dialogue. He said negotiation and not violence was the only way to resolve Drumcree. Mr Trimble said the only difference between the loyal order in Portadown and the government-appointed Parades Commission concerned sequencing and timing.

For more www.ireland.com

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Mistress Paisley
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:39 PM

Conrad is one of my pupils at the Bondage and Humiliation Fetishes University for Budding Politicians.
Please pay no notice to him, for we are only increasing his orgasm by replying to this.

Come here Conrad, you know what I do to naughty children

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:40 PM

I also do not usually respond to threads like these, but I like Andy Green was also caught in a bombing in coventry in 1974 and another in London a year later (once is bad enough twice is bloody careless!). I feel sorry for the orange order because they obviously have missed the plot -Don't they get it? We are moving away from the union with devolution, unionism has a limited shelf life -they are most intensely loyal to a Crown that will not exist in ten years time and thank God for it. Frankly unionism is like shifting deckchairs on the titanic -where will they be in a federal Europe ?? Why people can't realise that being orange or green doesn,tchange your life-you get up go to work and watch the same crap on TV wherever you are in the world ....and then you die. Conrad is obviously a sad little man with an incredibly minute -er...brain.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: barrygeo
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:45 PM

Conrad Do you also support the orangemen in this????????

Suspect device destroyed near Parade Commissioner's home Last updated: 16:50

RUC experts have destroyed a suspect object found today near the home of a prominent member of Northern Ireland's independent parades commission.

Army disposal officers carried out a controlled explosion on the object which was found in Greyabbey, 15 miles (25 kilometres) east of Belfast, near the residence of Mr Billy Martin who sits on the body that rules on Northern Ireland's controversial parades.

The RUC said later that the bomb alert was a hoax.

The parades commission has come under fire from Orangemen for ruling that Orange Order parades be re-routed away from nationalist districts.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 01:03 PM

The orange order does not support any such thing nor was any connection to the order made. People at large are unhappy with the parades commission. There was no bomb in the first place....

You need to get your facts and terms right. I do not support loyalist paramilitaries. The orange order is more unrelated to loyalist paramilitaries than sinn fein is to the IRA.

I do support the rights of the people for justice and their decisions concerning how the goal of fairness civil rights and justice will be pursued.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: barrygeo
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 01:10 PM

The orange order is more unrelated to loyalist paramilitaries than sinn fein is to the IRA.

Conrad please note the following report

"Mr Johnny Adair the former UFF prisoner and anti-agreement unionist Mr Frazier Agnew were among those who gathered on Drumcree hill last night."

From todays newspapers.

My facts are straight.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: barrygeo
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 01:24 PM

Here are some additional reports from the protests held at the specific request of Mr Gracey of Portadown Oreange Lodge Number LOL No.1.

"The RUC reported a number of confrontations with protesters. Police and drivers were stoned in the Oldpark and Shore Road areas of Belfast as well as in Newtownabbey.

Barricades were set alight on many of the blocked roads around the north and east of the city and there were reports of protests and road-blocks in Lisburn, Cooks town, Dungannon, Carrickfergus and Derry.

Scorch damage was caused to the doors of a Catholic church in Carnmoney, on the northern outskirts of Belfast, after a petrolbomb attack.

In Larne, Co Antrim, police recovered two fireworks wrapped with nails and an assortment of hand weapons and UDA paraphernalia."

Conrad you by association are a supporter of violence. By starting this thread you contributed to putting peoples lives in danger. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Brakn
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 02:08 PM

Conrad. In your last post,

"I do support the rights of the people for justice and their decisions concerning how the goal of fairness civil rights and justice will be pursued."

With that sort of talk you'll be thrown out of the Orange Order!

Let's get one thing straight here. We should not think of the Orange Order as a solely Protestant organisation. It is an anti-Catholic organisation.

If they want to march in support of a Dutch mercenary why didn't they march in Rome last weekend at the gay rally. (William of Orange was famously gay)
No offense intended.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Fiolar
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 02:49 PM

Interesting thread! A fact no one has mentioned yet and I am sure it would stick in the craw of many a "loyalist." The pope of the day supported William of Orange. It is worth noting also that the first RUC man as well the last RUC man to be killed in the six counties was at the hands of a protestant mob.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 04:20 PM

I'm one of Conrad's many critics here, but please, Mudcatters, no harassing e mails to him.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,, Amused
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:15 PM

Marching down the internet road with massive emails designed to harass the recipient is no different to demanding the freedom to march through Nationalist areas of Drumcree. These are both forms of unwanted message delivery which perform no good other than give perverse thumb-nosing pleasure to the messengers at the expense of the recipients.

Frank

Thanks for underscoring my point for me, Frank. Wonder if Conrad understood, without your explaining it to him, though?

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:23 PM

The reason the Pope supported William of Orange was because James II was supported by France, and the Pope, still not forgetting then Avignon exile of the past and the political issues of the present, vehemently did not support France, thus siding with her enemies, which of course was Bad Billy. Yet another politically motivated agenda by a Church official back in the days when the Church was ruled by power-hungries and political zealots instead of religious men. It has brought shame upon my religion and I don't like it one bit. I hate politics.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Bugsy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:30 PM

Mbo, You said ."... back in the days when the Church was ruded by power-hungries and political zealots instead of religious men."

Boy have I got news for you! It still is!

There's nothing wrong with the "Religion", its the "Denominations", that need a good kick in the arse!

CHeers

Bugsy.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Bugsy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:30 PM

Mbo, You said ."... back in the days when the Church was ruded by power-hungries and political zealots instead of religious men."

Boy have I got news for you! It still is!

There's nothing wrong with the "Religion", its the "Denominations", that need a good kick in the arse!

CHeers

Bugsy.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Bugsy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:34 PM

OK, Before anyone else get it in, that should have been "Ruled" not "ruded". Though it does make some kind of sense.

CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:36 PM

Well, I meant the Pope in particular. I don't think John Paul II is a power-hungry. Too old-fashioned on certain issues, yes (like women, and birth control, etc.), but he's basically a good guy, and not out to rule Europe or anything.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Terry K
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 01:25 AM

I'm with Andy Green and Ickle Dorritt (and by default, the silent majority), no matter what the historical and political background, what perpetuates the violence is that both sides are as boneheaded as each other.

Terry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 04:40 AM

Bugsy, there's everything wrong with religion, but that doesn't mean I'm defending the denominations. And if Mbo wants to argue that the Pope is a good guy, I think that would need a whole new thread. We could have a look at Pacelli too (Pius Xll), and the little matter of the concordat he signed up to with Hitler. But let's get back to the music threads for a while before we go down that road.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: barrygeo
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 04:47 AM

Folks, for the record. I am probably one of the few posters here actually living in Ireland. I am anti-violence and voted for the PEace Agreement.

Conrad's original post was a direct copy/paste from the web site of the Portadown District, Loyal Orange Lodge Number One. This specific group are very anti-peace agreement and have close links with loyalist paramilitaries. They are anti-peace agreement without ever offering an alternative.

Conrad is just as misguided as those who support republican violence in IReland. 95% of people in Ireland and 75% of people in Northern Ireland voted for peace. We want a new future not an annual rehash of a painful history. The likes of Conrad who enjoys stoking up outdated religous bigotry must be challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: alison
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 09:17 AM

It saddens me to see this going on at home AGAIN!!.... I have relatives barricaded in their houses... they literally cannot get in or out of their driveway because of road blocks... I saw the centre of Belfast on the news tonight.. looks like a ghost town.........

its a damn shame

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:00 AM

I saw it this monring in the newspaper, Alison and immediately thought of you and your family who are there. I am so sorry; I hope you are able to be in touch with them, easily and economically. May all involved come to their senses and stop the madness.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From:
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:14 AM

Hi,

I wonder if Conrad has the lyrics to the Aghalee Heroes.

Thanks

Leon

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Sailor Dan working??
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:18 AM

Hey guys and gals

I have posted to this thread a couple of times in a not to complimentary way to the Orange brigade. Terry in his post above is precisley correct. Both sides are too boneheaded. But it is because of people like the originator of this thread.

Barrygeo is basically the voice of the majority of the Irish people, they want peace and quiet also. They do not want to rehash the hurts over again. Years ago I stopped supporting the IRA for the actions they took. Yes I want peace for Eire and one country ruled by themselves.

If we keep posting to this thread we will just keep up the hurt and anger that builds and further the cause of the originator. I think we should just let this die and go with the wind. Everyone say a Prayer in their minds in whichever way they worship for Peace not only in Ireland, but for the world.

Sailor Dan

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Bagpuss
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:19 AM

I missed the interesting part of the thread!!

Geordies (I'm from Gateshead too) and Smoggies, I appeal for unity against our common foe - the Mackem!!!

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: L R Mole
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:27 AM

Dona nobis pacem.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Ritchie
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:31 AM

Sorry Terry,

It was my poke at you re people from the Boro' of course I knew they wern't 'proper Geordies' and that they were from your neck of the woods...damn I missed Vic Reeves & Bob Mortimer, they would n't let it lie.....not like some.

Tell you what though check out a book by Harry Pearson called the 'far corner' if you like football that is, it's darza...

As for this orange thing I think everyone should paint their faces and wear orange wigs and dance on one leg and should smoke dope and well you know what I mean.

you've just been tango'd.

regards ritchie.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 01:09 PM

For all the US posters, who say that Irish Republicanism is as "boneheaded" as Loyalist beliefs. Though WE ALL agree the time for armed struggle is over, as England has agreed to talk, if you feel armed struggle against the crown and it's inforced discriminations and deprivations of rights is wrong, I hope you stop pledging alegence to our flag of struggle and independence and REPUBLIC, and give up citizenship to become subjects again. I am sure England would love you back - so amny colonials have thrown off their yoke!
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 01:21 PM

"I am sure England would love you back" - God, I don't think so!

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,I guess
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 02:50 PM

Look, I just don't understand this. When it's so obvious that the guy who started this just wants to cause trouble why are people getting so emotional in tryig to answer him. Couldn't the whole topic have been debated without that kind of title. If he really does live in Baltimore than why is anybody even taking him seriously. Get a life Conrad. This is really sad.

g

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 03:40 PM

I don't like what the Orange Order stands for - I'm an Irish Republican and a Catholic- but people should of course be allowed to march about whatever they want - but two things make the Orange marches different.
First of all they are not marches or demonstrations, they are parades. They are not about changing the government or its policies. They are about reminding the subjugated Catholic minority that the forces of Unionist Protestantism trounced them once and that if they get uppity again they'll trounce them again. They are inflammatory and deliberately provocative.
Secondly, I can think of no other demonstration or march where the army or police barricade peaceful, law-abiding people in their own homes so that a parade can go past. I can think of no other situation where any counter-demonstration is completely forbidden.
Can anyone imagine the Metropolitan Police in London barricading black people in their homes so that the British Nation Party or the Ku Klux Klan could march through Brixton? I thought not.
These ignorant, intolerant arsehole bigots should be told to parade through their own areas and stop infringing on the legitmate civil liberties of innocent and peaceful communities.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 04:11 PM

Dear I guess:
You are right, and as I forgive people their ignorence, I also appologise for indulging my anger. The fact is I have lost friends to Orange terror. I remind those who say both sides are the same of the present threat to kill a Catholic a day until the parades take place. As wrong as killing in war may be, indescriminate killing is worse, weither it is a free fire zone in Viet Nam, or kill a Catholic a day. The fact is the IS a diffrence betwen the loyalist movememnt and Republicanism. And I know the difference having spent time in Belfast in BOTH communities. I know I could talk freely, as an Anglo Irishman, and a protestant about things that would have gotten me killed on the Shankill. Anyone who says the two sides are the same should learn about the Rumpus Room and Campbell and the Shankill Butchers. Yes Forgive, but it is a dangerous thing to forget. To forget what was struggled for, allows injustice and discrimination to continue.
We in the US clean up our history through our foolish movies to the point of fostering ignorence. For those who believe Mississippi Burning and Patriot, it is easy to point a wagging finger at Irish Republicans. Forget TV and the movies, read and go and see for your self. We are such a wealthy nation, use some of the money to travel and get educated. But don't stay at the hilton...
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 04:12 PM

Romper Room, not Rumpus room...

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Veritas
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 04:45 PM

"IF Conrad lives in Baltimore....

OK, chaps, check out who provides his e-mail service: Click

Internet Service Provider

Then look in the Telephone Directory: Click
U.S. Phone Directory

& then tell me where YOU think he's from.......

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Trevor
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 08:17 PM

Good on ye, Conrad !! WE ARE THE PEOPLE !!!!!!! He who opposes us is an UNTERMENSCH ! Trevor

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 08:53 PM

Very good, Conrad.

You've just busted yourself!!!

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 09:32 PM

Wasn't it an English king who started all this Church of England/Protestantism division anyway? In order to get the women he wanted? I should think he's chuckling there in his grave and giving a thumbs up for the poor souls in Ireland who have kept up this ridiculous and tragic circumstance for centuries--a by-product of his lustful whim. I say this English king is still "giving it to" the Irish to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 09:33 PM

Tracking down people like that is not a justifiable way of responding to a thread you don't like. And when done by people who are coming in anonymously, I smell a rat.

I don't like censorship much, but that's the kind of post that needs deleting.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: bob jr
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM

there is a sequel to the book "how the irish saved civilization" its called "how the irish kept killing each other long after it stopped making any sense to the rest of the world". its probably not gonna be a best seller but i am gonna read it....now if they had an "orangeman parade in like florida i could get behind that but i didnt know they had that many oranges in ireland but hey what do i know i am canadian...

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Veritas
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:20 PM

McGrath,

You've shown too much intelligence in the past to fall prey to this sort of paranoia - "tracking down"??? " Puh-Leeze!!

He posted his e-mail address himself! And when is looking someone up in the telephone directory an invasion of privacy? If C. is concerned, he can go Ex-Directory. This is all public record information!

Seems despite the lip service to freedom of expression seen in this forum, there are would-be censors just waiting for an opportunity......

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: barrygeo
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 05:37 AM

My last word on the matter. You can't oppose intimidation with counter intimidation. I have no problem with marches and parades as long as they are not designed to be intimidatory. Causing hassle to an individual such as Conrad would be wrong. Debate and discussion is the answer!!!!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 07:28 AM

I must agree with Barry and Keven, and not just because in reverce it becomes, Keven Barry... Giving Conrad grief is only going to increase his paranoia, the root of the Orange lad's usrrender of their humanity. As I believe I have told people here in the past, early in the seace fire, I was at WBAI passifica Raidio's studio in NYC, waiting to be interviewed about Roma (gypsies). By chance there was a spokesperson for the Orange Lodges in the studio, there to debate over the phone and be interviewed. The poor man looked absoultly misserable, as everyone in the studio was ignoring him, and he knew from the posters on the wall, he was not in a sympathetic place. In the interest of the sease fire and peace talks, I brought the fellow a cup of tea, and commented that we had arrainged the rain that morning, to make him feal at home. We had a great wee talk, and I made it clear I was a life long republican and a friend of Burnadette Devlin McAlisky. He said things to me that I did not agree with, and I felt showed, at least an unconcious prejudice and I am sure I said things that made him uncomfortable. However, the polite exchange of ideas made it possible to shake hands and share some tea. Insulting each other, snearing etc (or sending threating or distructive attachments on email) would have done nothing for progress in Ireland. So to those who say this should not be talked about, I can only ask how can you have progress through silence, and for those who say spam Conrad, I say, how can you have progress through harassment. Let's keep it intelligent folks, and Conrad, in responce, why don't you stop the sloganisms and really think if you wish to support Protestant domination. Is it really a Christian thing to do? Last I looked, Protestantism was a Christian religion, eh? Remember, it is not do unto others what they do, but what you would HAVE them do unto you.
Be nice folks
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Minstrel Bradford
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 07:15 AM

Yet Again someone sticks their head above the parapet to prove an age old adage "Born green, Turn yellow and hang around in bunches" or the definition of an Ulster Loyalist "One who is Loyal to the crown and even more loyal to the half crown"

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Angel Blue
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 04:31 PM

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What a lovely, helpful web site! I must come back often.
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