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Lyr Add: The Sash My Father Wore

*Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive 07 Jul 00 - 12:03 PM
*Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive 07 Jul 00 - 12:05 PM
catspaw49 07 Jul 00 - 12:08 PM
Roger in Sheffield 07 Jul 00 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,appalled 07 Jul 00 - 12:26 PM
sledge 07 Jul 00 - 12:28 PM
Lady McMoo 07 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM
IanC 07 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM
SDShad 07 Jul 00 - 01:11 PM
InOBU 07 Jul 00 - 03:43 PM
Sailor Dan working?? 07 Jul 00 - 03:50 PM
*Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive 07 Jul 00 - 05:28 PM
Terry K 07 Jul 00 - 05:48 PM
*Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive 07 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,appalled 07 Jul 00 - 06:21 PM
katlaughing 07 Jul 00 - 06:32 PM
katlaughing 07 Jul 00 - 06:35 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 00 - 06:37 PM
SDShad 07 Jul 00 - 06:43 PM
katlaughing 07 Jul 00 - 06:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 00 - 06:57 PM
SDShad 07 Jul 00 - 07:05 PM
katlaughing 07 Jul 00 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,Guest 07 Jul 00 - 08:01 PM
Amergin 07 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 07 Jul 00 - 08:30 PM
GUEST, appalled 07 Jul 00 - 10:00 PM
catspaw49 07 Jul 00 - 10:12 PM
Big Mick 07 Jul 00 - 10:44 PM
*Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive 07 Jul 00 - 10:54 PM
Lepus Rex 07 Jul 00 - 11:04 PM
*Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive 07 Jul 00 - 11:17 PM
Amergin 07 Jul 00 - 11:35 PM
Lepus Rex 07 Jul 00 - 11:40 PM
Amergin 07 Jul 00 - 11:42 PM
Lepus Rex 07 Jul 00 - 11:58 PM
alison 08 Jul 00 - 03:09 AM
sledge 08 Jul 00 - 03:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 00 - 05:03 AM
Brakn 08 Jul 00 - 06:27 AM
*Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive 08 Jul 00 - 06:49 AM
The Shambles 08 Jul 00 - 06:49 AM
InOBU 08 Jul 00 - 07:43 AM
Naemanson 08 Jul 00 - 07:44 AM
InOBU 08 Jul 00 - 07:54 AM
InOBU 08 Jul 00 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Colwyn Dane 08 Jul 00 - 08:29 AM
Ritchie 08 Jul 00 - 09:01 AM
GUEST 08 Jul 00 - 09:26 AM
*Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive 08 Jul 00 - 01:16 PM
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SASH MY FATHER WORE
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:03 PM

The freedom to walk is a universal concern.

"Somewhere I read of the freedom of assembly. Somewhere I read of the freedom of speech. Somewhere I read of the freedom of the press. Somewhere I read that the greatness of America is the right to protest for right. And so just as I say, we aren't going to let any injunction turn us around. We are going on."
(Martin Luther King - "I see the Promised Land" speech in Memphis)

"One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all"
(Martin Luther King - Letter from Birmingham Prison, Alabama)

Our causes can not be truly free unless the causes of others are equally free!

YES FOLKS YOU CAN NOW SING ALONG WITH A NEW ORCHESTRATION OF
THE SASH!
CLICK HERE- THE LYRICS ARE FURTHER DOWN
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/pcsash.mid

THE SASH MY FATHER WORE

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman, from Erin's isle I came,
To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,
And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,
That I might have the right to wear the sash my father wore!

CHORUS: It is old but it is beautiful, and its colors they are fine
It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.
My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore
And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore

For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain
Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,
If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once more
That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!

And when some day, across the sea to Antrim's shore you come,
We'll welcome you in royal style, to the sound of flute and drum
And Ulster's hills shall echo still, from Rathlin to Dromore
As we sing again the loyal strain of the sash my father wore!


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:05 PM

OK now its a link just click and sing-Conrad The New Sash!!!!!! http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/pcsash.mid (just in case you cant get there from here!


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:08 PM

Why do you do this shit Conrad? I don't suppose there's a chance we could all just blow this off is there?

.....yeah, that's what I thought.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:24 PM

Bad Taste and Bad Timing


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,appalled
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:26 PM

Conrad the Gobshite:

Have you been a fuckwit since birth, or did it come over you slowly, by degrees?

The situation is sad enough with the protestant paramilitary /orange order arseholes ascendant at the moment, and, of course, the provos will then take their turn & try and out-arsehole them.

Just shut yer hole, eh? and lets hope this thread dies out quickly.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: sledge
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:28 PM

??????? dropped on head as a child


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM

The freedom to walk? More like the freedom to intimidate law-abiding citizens who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

Who in their right mind would want to perpetuate this anachronistic, bigoted and distasteful nonsense.

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM

Look.

If you want this thread to die, don't respond to it.

Then it will.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: SDShad
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 01:11 PM

Jaysus, never has the BS appelation been more appropriate.

Good Lord, Conrad, nobody's saying they can't wear their bloody goddamned sashes. But why exactly is it necessary to carry on Bogside with these these virulent, barbaric, fundamentalist demonstrations of anti-Catholic hate?

Less fun as no one gets terrorized if you prance about singing "Kick the Pope" in a Presbyterian (and I use the term loosely) neighborhood?

Personally, I'm not especially fond of the more trenchant songs of either the Rebel or the Orange tradition, but I'm right behind you Conrad on the preservation of the Orange folk tradition, the bad, the good, and the marvelous ("The Old Orange Flute" comes to mind). I'd never gainsay you on that issue, as I've never encountered anyone with such encyclopedic knowledge of the tradition.

But why this?

Proddy Yank who has lost almost all sympathy for his Orange "cousins,"

Chris


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:43 PM

Martin Luthor King was opposed by the students and founding fathers of Bob Jones University, the school which gave Ian Paisley his worthless degree. He marched for equal rights, not to opress a community on the grounds of their religion and political beliefs. And I say this as an Anglo Irishman, not raised a Catholic, who will never be a subject, but stands with Irish and English republicans with hopes that the day of kings and their follish lackys will pass with all the other baggage of history. I have seen Martin Luthor Kings portrate in many a house on the Falls Road, but have never seen him on any wall in the Shankill.
In yonder garden grows a weed
that gives off deadly ouder
and from its fruit springs forth a weed, thy name it is called orange
and she grows so high and spreads so wide
my wealth and power perish
and when the organge tree droops her head, liberty is sure to flourish.

Peace and reconcilliation, but TRUTH in Ireland as well.
Enjoy the 12th, but show a little respect - croppy wont lie down.
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Sailor Dan working??
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:50 PM

And these Orange colored assholes call the IRA gangsters. Shit theses morons are as bad with the Catholics as Hitler was with the Jews, and they have the balls to call themselves MEN?? At least the IRA makes no bones about who they are fighting and why. Not that I agree with them totally.

Sailor Dan


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 05:28 PM

LOL! ----->now if you want to get a load of biggoted republicans out just talk about civil rights and freedom! <---- What a wonderful reflection this thiread so far has been of you!

====>the denial of the right to walk===> still a universal concern.

I suppose few would mind having St.Pats Parades canceled. You would miss the catholic Icons and the clubs of the green thugs and of course the two IRA guys out front with the image of the saint.

The road is there it is a public road and it will be walked. Heard some great lyrics to that effect from a group of women on a BBC real audio coverage.

Must get that song transcribed! Keep up the good work guys. Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Terry K
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 05:48 PM

Conrad, you do yourself a disservice. I love the stuff you do about Geordie music but this Orange/Green stuff is a can of worms/crock of shit/heap of do do's etc (delete as applicable).

But, hey, I just noticed that the aggressive responses are all actually anti-Orange, which probably means pro-Green. Sensible people don't take sides, we just despise the whole thing.

Conrad, don't stir it - stick to Geordie music and wallow in the respect you've earned!

(But hang on, I'm from the Boro and we all detest Geordies, so whose side am I on?).


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM

Isn't it wonderful how polite they have all been? I guess if its not your cultural aspirations then you gotta trash em. My only stand is for freedom! Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,appalled
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:21 PM

No, fellas, the responses aren't anti-orange (and thus pro-green) they're anti-arsehole off whatever political/religious persuasion.

The fact you can't grasp this is one of the reasons you're a fuckwit.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:32 PM

Posted in another thread, this seems to be a good place to repeat it:

"The Sufis advise us to speak only after our words have managed to pass through three gates.

At the first gate, we ask ourselves, 'Are these words true?' If so, we let them pass on; if not, back they go.

At the second gate, we ask, 'Are they necessary?'

At the last gate, we ask, 'Are they kind?'"

It also seems to me that everyone could benefit from asking the same things of their actions. Nothing will be gained throughout the world by using the tactics of such as the few days have seen.

katshakingherheadattheabsolutestupidityofitall


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:35 PM

that should say, "posted by another Mudcatter" and "using the tactics of such as the pastfew days have seen.

katshakingherhead


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:37 PM

Sure, kat. Throw Sufi wisdom at me. No fair, I'm a sucker for Sufi wisdom.

As usual, they've got it right. Sometimes I just don't keep my yap shut when I orghta.

Namaste,

Chris


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: SDShad
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:43 PM

Oops, that was me, sans cookie. Don't usually use IE....

Shad


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:54 PM

Well, SD, I didn't mean it for any one person, although I was hoping the original poster might pay attention. THANKS, for posting after your GUEST appearance, though, to let us know who it was!**BG**

It is sometimes very hard for me to even try follow such wisdom, but in this case, if you go back through some of the threads on the same subject, it is, IMO, very good advice in this instance.

I really cannot imagine why the stupidity of either continues....

katsaddened


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:57 PM

Try this to clear the head.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: SDShad
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:05 PM

Oh, I didn't take it as any one person, me or otherwise, kat, but it felt relevant, inasmuch as usually I'm pretty good at not rising to flamebait on the 'Cat. Now, in my past incarnations on Usenet and BBSs, that's a different story. But I really do try to be a (semi-)good boy on the 'Cat.

Marvelous, beautiful suggstion Kevin. It's making me smile already.

Chris


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:11 PM

Thanks, Kevin...just for that I will have to work it up for HearMe...it's one of my faves. Will be joining us sometime?

katliftedupalittle


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:01 PM

Conrad

This is a sit for music and fun, please keep your tripe out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM

Thought this should be called the Dress Me Father Wore...

Oh hell why don't you just get on your knees and kiss Ian Paisley's mother's hairy ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:30 PM

The offensive and anonymous ranting of Guest "appalled" almost goads me into sympathising with Conrad's view. I do a little in any case.

Decent, law-abiding unionists/prods (and believe it or not, there are some) are entitled to feel threatened. They are a minority community in the island of Ireland and the wind of change is blowing strongly against them.

Partition gave them a secessionist state in which they enjoyed a majority - a comfortable majority to start with, though it has dwindled significantly. Notwithstanding that majority, they always behaved with a mindless seige mentality, borne out of their awareness of the bigger picture: hence gerrymandering; rigged housing lists; grotesesque misuse of what became a blatently partisan police force, and denial of various human rights to Catholics simply because they were catholics.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost, and needless to say, the unionists have much to lose. Many have been settled in Ireland for far longer than many other families have been settled in America. And badly as some of them have behaved towards the natives, it has been no worse than the way many American settlers treated the American natives.

There happen to have been decent people born into Ulster's protestant community, whose position deserves respect and understanding. Some cherish the parades that the rest of us find so risible, as emblematic of their threatened culture; and they remember the days when the parades caused little or no offense.

They have to face the further confusion that many of us in Britain are pissed off with the monarchy, Empire, the Anglican Communion, etc - all of which leaves them clinging to a nation that long-since disappeared up its own arse.

The Brit dilemma is that if the unionists are squeezed too hard, and too fast, the whole lot of them will "go native" and line up with the relatively small number of morons who have been on the streets this week. That would take some containing, as the Ulster Workers strike in 1974 proved (though much has changed to ensure that no such strike could be as successful again). It would also force the IRA on to the streets again.

My advice to Conrad is, have faith with the Parades Commission. They give the green light to more than 2,000 parades each year, and would approve the Gervaghy Road parade if only the Orange Order would negotiate terms with the residents. If you cannot see that one or two routes are there purely and simply to provoke ordinary people of the other persuasion, who are just as decent as you presumably are yourself, then you are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Politics apart, Conrad, I'm glad that someone is out their flying a kite for the songs and music of the protestant tradition. If you can't do that without forcing a heated debate or two upon us along the way, well personally I'm happy to have your contributions on that basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST, appalled
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:00 PM

What is offensive is the original posting.

This latest demonstrations of assinine behavior are not about "upholding the protestant tradition" and that sort of folderol, boyo, they are about a bunch of arseholes deliberately trying to poke someone in the eye with a sharp stick, just for the hell of it... its is childish, stupid, dangerous, and counterproductive. And THAT's offensive, not to say obscene.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:12 PM

Always a pleasure to to be proven right.............

Dammit Conrad!!! Shall we just call you #1 PISSANT instead? I hate to dis all the other pissants in the world though.............

Its not that NI is not a worthy discusion and God knows it a passionate one, but for me it is the pathetic fact that you do this shit on purpose knowing full well the ramifications and then step aside, returning only with measured tones proclaiming your completely non-partisan "logic." Stop it. It is transparent and serves no purpose. Stop it now. Don't respond with more of your polished rhetoric. Stop it.

Pat Patterson


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:44 PM

Thanks, Pat. This person really has far too high an opinion of himself and his intellectual capabilities. That is OK, there are those that might say the same about me. What troubles me is that he honestly thinks that others cannot see through this. He is actually convinced of his superiority. In fact, he shows himself for the horses patoot that he is.

St. Patrick's Day Parades celebrate nothing other than a pride in heritage. That is not to say that there are not fools out there that have little or no understanding of that heritage and use this as an excuse for drinking and acting stupid. But the intent of the parade is "the wearing of the green". I have marched, as you might guess, in many of these here in the states. I have yet to see one march to a Protestant church and stop (timed to celebration of services) and play so loudly that services cannot be celebrated. I have never seen one where all the windows of those churches were shattered, nor have I seen one where the people were harassed going in and out of those churches. In fact, I have never seen a band whose purpose it was to mock the spiritual leaders of any Protestant denomination. Can you say the same?

The simple fact is that the Orange tradition is a very important piece of IRISH history. It's songs and stories need to be preserved. After all, it spawned some of Ireland's greatest Republican leaders. That is not the same as saying that it is OK to use it as a pretext for anti-catholic bigotry. Why don't you give it up, asshole. There is a very good chance to finally end up with peace for the children of Ireland. If fools like you keep it up, you risk letting the world see who has really been making this a religious issue all along. But worse than that, much worse, you will miss a chance to let Irish people, Catholic and Protestant, Unionists and Republicans....and their children have peace.

Big Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 10:54 PM

The only reason that peaceful orangemen with nothing but good intent are not allowed to march down that road is because a bunch of Republican thugs in years past have taken out the petrol bombs and rocks and have demonstrated to the government their resolve.

Since the government listened the first time and banned the marches it is only fitting that after many negotiating sessions over the past several years, and several banns the unionist man in the street should resort to the tactics that have worked on behalf of the republicans in the past.

Again despite polite discussion the language and nature of most of the posts to this thread reveal the frustration brought about by argument against an issue which is rooted in basic freedom to march in peace through your own land.

The same that has been done to peaceful orangemen is being done to their music in the record stores and venues of America where the one Ireland in charge totally restricts access to only one tradition of the multi- traditional Isle of Ireland.

Let us remember that the song the Sash My Father Wore in reality threatens no one, and that Martin Luther King was working with pan cultural truths which must be applied in all situations.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:04 PM

I really appreciate the repeated comparisons by Conrad of Irish Prostestants to American Blacks. Before Conrad spoke up, I'd almost forgotten how the Protestants were shipped off in chains from their homeland and enslaved by the Irish for centuries. Thanks, Conrad!


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:17 PM

actually protestants (dissenters)were forced to flee to the new world and were regarded as second class citizens. In St. Marys city Maryland a jesuit colony protestants and dissenters existed only as indentured servants.

I have not really compaired them to black africans. I have noted that a Black african Dr. Martin Luther King has noted that the defense of freedom ( in this case walking peacefully down a public road) is a worthy cause.

But if you all like to toss out glib statements and treat the issues of freedom and civil rights raised lightly I must respect your freedom to do so. But your attitude will not change the basic nature of the complaint against the denial of basic rights raised by the Orange Order.

Remember- it is impossible to condenm any music or lyric because these things are more than politics- they are the treasures of art.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:35 PM

Actually I seem to remember reading somewhere that Irish Catholics had to practice their religion in caves, because Catholicism was illegal.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:40 PM

I'm wasn't treating the issues of freedom and civil rights lightly, Conrad, but making a wise-ass comment on your irritating abuse of Martin Luther King Jr's name. I've been sitting here, watching you slip in MLK quotes in an effort to add an aura of legitimacy to your bigoted speeches. While you're at it, why don't you add something that will REALLY drive home how hard the poor Orangemen have it. Like: "Hitler wouldn't allow the Jews to march down the street in protest, either!" I'm sure you can do better than that. It's just sad, that's all.

And Martin Luther King Jr. was AMERICAN (Usatian?!), not African.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:42 PM

Never mind him, he's just an ass trying to inflame us..


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:58 PM

This inflammation IS getting a little old... Pass the hydrocortisone, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: alison
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 03:09 AM

someone mentioned further up this thread...

"Decent, law-abiding unionists/prods (and believe it or not, there are some) "

can I please change that to say, "and there are MANY, just as there are MANY decent, law-abiding republicans/catholics"... the people have voted for peace they deserve to have their wish.....

you get the same ones year after year who won't let the old hatred die... both "sides" ...it's sad to see...

my grandfather, and great grandfather were orangemen and proud of it (we used to be taken to the parades as kids to wave our flags.. I hated it)... but I doubt very much that had they been alive today and younger they'd have gone camping on the Garvaghy Road ... the situation there has just got stupid, and each year they don't fix it.. so next year they come back and we have the same circus all over again. Maybe if there wasn't so much unemployment they'd have better things to do.... just a thought..

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: sledge
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 03:53 AM

Lepus Rex, I suggest that given the nature of the problem Anusol would be more appropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 05:03 AM

Someday the site of fellas parading down the street with sashes and bowler hats and bands will be as controversial and divisive as Morris Dancing is.

It will be a gift by one part ofthe community to the rest of it, like the Notting Hill Carnival, or the Durham Miners Gala.

But the nonsense about the Drumcree parade and the Croppies Lie Down message it's all about is holding back that day. And intended to do so.

The irony of it all is that this kind of carrying on by people who claim to support the Union does more to make people in England want to sever all connections with Northern Ireland than the IRA and the bombing ever did. "I don't know why we don't just leave them to sort it out among themselves" is almost certainly the overhwhelming majority opinion now.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Brakn
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:27 AM

This comical. Tradition??
The KKK would say they have a tradition and the National Front also.

It's a shame we can't let them march and then just laugh at them but then they are more to be pitied than laughed at.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:49 AM

But you should be aware of the fact that in the land of the free the KKK can hold their parades. Freedom is for everyone not just the people you agree with. Remember also that most of white america in the 50s and 60s thought of African Americans the way many on this thread seem to think of orangemen. We should not rest until all of the rivers are free and all songs are regarded primairly as art.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:49 AM

Peace in Ireland. A song challenge


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:43 AM

In the interst of truth in Inreland... Parades Commission confirms march ban

Last updated: 17:18

Orangemen will be banned from marching through a nationalist area of Portadown on Sunday, the body governing parades in Northern Ireland confirmed tonight.

The Parades Commission upheld its ruling from Monday forbidding the Orange Order from marching through the Garvaghy Road this weekend during its annual Drumcree parade following an appeal from the Portadown District.

In a two page statement in response to the Orange Order's request for a review of its decision, the Commission said it was "considerably encouraged" by the affadavit presented to them on behalf of the Portadown Orangemen by mediators in Belfast earlier today.

Following a meeting with the Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition, it also acknowledged in its second determination a "genuine desire" on the part of the nationalists to find a resolution to the dispute. However, in a reference to the street violence across Northern Ireland over the past five days since Monday's decision to ban the parade, the Commission said it had also "gone to considerable lengths to spell out that peaceful protest is not necessarily the same as lawful protest".

"We have seen examples on both sides that peaceful protest is not necessarily the same as lawful protest," the commission said.

"We have seen examples on both sides of unsuccessful efforts to maintain control over hooligan elements who own little allegiance to the principles or issues involved.

"They should and must be explicitly condemned and discouraged by everyone as a help to no side and a barrier to the eventual resolution of the overall problem."

The Parades Commission welcomed the Orange Order's offer to engage through mediators in the process involving South African mediator Mr Brian Currin to resolve the Drumcree dispute.

Noting their readiness to nominate representatives of the Portadown District to engage with the residents in a civic forum, it said it would be useful to have further clarification as to who those might be.

But it concluded: "There is no doubt that Portadown District has demonstrated, as we noted above, a very real, concerned and, we believe, genuine desire to find a resolution to the Drumcree issue.

"We unreservedly welcome their undertakings to cancel all rallies, protest parades and other related activities; to continue to engage with Brian Currin; to urge others towards a peaceful resolution without violence; to take part in any civic forum; and to have a limited parade.

"The problem lies in the sequence they seek - namely a change of determination for July 9, following which all these undertakings would be implemented, in contrast to our road map which envisaged a number of events occurring before and leading to a parade.

"Having considered all the available information against the factors contained in our Guidelines document, we confirm our decision detailed in the determination dated July 3, 2000."

The decision came hours after Portadown District Master Mr Harold Gracey refused to condemn loyalist violence in the wake of the original ban on the march.

Mr Gracey told the BBC at Drumcree: "I am not going to condemn violence because (Sinn Fein leader) Gerry Adams never condemns it."

"I am not saying I am happy with violence. I never have been and anyone who knows me knows that but this country, the Protestant people of this country and the loyalist community are sick to death of what is happening to this country and have been over the past 30 years."

He said he had warned Mr Currin, who has been attempting to establish a talks process between the rival sides, that if they were barred from marching, then he should leave.

"If they let us down (the road) on July 9, then anything is possible but if they don't, I told him he may as well pack his bags and go back to South Africa," he said.

SDLP minister in the Stormont executive Ms Brid Rodgers said Mr Gracey's refusal to condemn the violence would be deplored by unionists and nationalists across the province.

Sinn Fein's MLA Ms Dara O'Hagan claimed Mr Gracey's comments proved "how far gone and how lost the Orange Order, particularly in Portadown, is on this issue".

- PA News
Slan
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:44 AM

Many centuries ago a mediocre carpenter said it best:

Love one another.

Turn the other cheek.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

He was working from a tradition that said Thou shall not Kill.

I am not a Christian but these are some of the main tenets of my life. I go thought this world wondering why these don't figure more highly in the lives of others as well. Especially in Northern Ireland. If they would listen to their religion and forget about the worngs done in their history they could find peace for their children.

Unfortunately this is the most difficult path of all. This path requires more courage than facing the bullets and bombs of the other side. This path requires ne to put down the weapons and stand clear of the hate. It requires both sides to learn to love one another and do unto one another as they would have done unto them.

Until this happens I have made some resolutions in my life. I will not wear orange or green on St Patrick's day. I will never sing the songs (from either side) of the Irish conflict. And I will never donate to any charity concerned with Ireland unless I am positive that money will go to the needy and not go for weapons.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:54 AM

Also in the interest of truth inb Ireland:
Your inovacation of Dr. Kings name in defence of paraded bigotry is offensive. I cannot recall an incidence where people were beaten to death for crossing the street in front of a Southern Christian Leadership sponsored parade, but from Edenburgh to Belfast one takes ones life at risk to do just that. In point of fact, you begin to hit the nail on the head when you say that the KKK has the right to march in the US. The comparison there to the Orange Lodge's rights are much more proper. Like your cousins, the KKK, (who also have some music of a sort) you have the right to march or wave your hands until that right adversely impacts on the rights of others. As judge Learned Hand once said, "you have the right to wave your hand until your hand meets another's face." There are cercumstances where the damage and danger of KKK marches is mitigated by manner and place controls here in the US, as seen in recent NYC court decisions. As long as Orange lodges are dens of bigotry, I will not do, as has been sugested the sensible thing to not enguage in public condemnation of them. One day the KKK and Orange lodges may join the Hitler Youth on the scrap heep of history, speed the day, until then, there will be a need to control the damage they seek to do.
If you were truely concerned with Peace in Ireland, you would rededicate your parade to the future, not use it as a way of keeping alive the bigorty of the past, then perhaps there would be a place for the Orange Orders in a progressive future.
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:05 AM

For more truth in Ireland...
The Garvaghy Roads Residents Association's homepage is:

http://www.garvaghyroad.org/
Slan
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:29 AM

Just a suggestion:

Construct a wide bypass or a deep underpass to avoid those residential areas where the marches are not appreciated.

"Responsibilities are what we owe to ourselves. Rights are what other people believe we owe to them."

---Varindra Vittachi.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Ritchie
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:01 AM

Terry K, You can't detest all Geordies aa mean there's been loads of good entertaining ones f'instance.... Roy Chubby Brown...what a laugh..Harry Pearson..one of our finest young writers..Paul Rodgers..great voice..Vin Garbitt..tremendous talent..Chris Rea..brilliant guitarist..David Coverdale..another good voice..Wendy Richards..great actress.. hey the list goes on but who have the Boro got ? whey only Gazza comes readably t'mind..

regards Ritchie from Gateshead.


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:26 AM

The Garvaghy Raod Residents Coalition Homepage (Click Here)


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Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:16 PM

To continue your list of recommended reading from the other side.(web resources below)

No one is talking of the right to walk violently. We are talking about a peaceful law abiding parade. Any interferance in peaceful parading is wrong. You will find that the orangemen have been open to negotiation and have negotiated before each time negotiations ended with a denial of basic rights. That is not negotiation. This time they having tried in the past are right to insist on peaceful march first conditions later. The entire concept of having to speak against violence is silly. Jerry Adams has never condenmed any violent act on the part of his movement. No one else should be held to a higher standard.

As with the civil rights movements the loyalist response is broken into two camps which do not communicate. One does not control the other. No organization should be responsible for each and every fringe of wackos who wish to have violence. This is a police matter with the police and not the Orange order being responsible for public safety.

The Orange order is clearly on record against violence.

While one would generally like to condenm street violence without analysis it is important to realize that street violence is not always senseless but represents a deep frustration in this case with the contiued denial of rights. When republicans resorted to violence and threat thereof the government caved in and banned what was a peaceful parade and that parade even agreed not to play in front of churches and to limit use of regalia and to ban outsiders from taking part-it was not the sort of parade of the exagerated descriptions on this thread. Is not the government telling the man in the street that violence is the key to progress?

Don't Just Talk About it!!!!!  Know About it!!!
Get the information about Drumcree directly  from the source!
Click Here and be Accurately Informed.  For direct breaking news 
updates Click Here

For my orange pages-
click


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