Lyr Add: The Sash My Father Wore

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:26 AM

Well said, Frank. Your posting had not shown up when I sent mine.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:22 AM

McGrath of Harlow, you're spot on. If just a few people read and heed your posting, then Conrad will have done us a favour by starting it.

But Little John, I am dismayed that you should give credence to GUEST:Appalled/Amused. Anyone is entitled to spout bile in this forum (thank you Max!), but that this guest dare do it only from behind a cloak of anonymity is shameful. In fact this guest's last posting goes way beyond bile and - far worse than anything else I have seen at The Mudcat - is a cowardly attack on a fellow member who has done no more than inflict upon us his own opinion, under his own name. Question his opinion by all means, as I certainly do, but let's not just hate the guy.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:01 AM

Pleae lets not get into that business of sending harassing emails and so forth. That's nver the way to deal with that kind of stuff, and where does it end? All of us annoy other people at times and are open to that, and it just undermines the whole structure of the internet and the Mudcat.

Ignore Conrad, or explain where he's wrong if you'd rather. But using email as a weapon like that - and verbal abuse on the Mudcat for that matter - just feeds into the paranoia which is what the whole thing is about. Both on the Mudcat and on the streets of Northern Ireland.It's a kind of a reward

In fact I'm highly susopicious of a GUEST making the kind of suggestion that appeared under the label "GUESTamused" just now (and remember, that could be anybody in the world with any kind of agenda, it needn't even be the same one who signed on with that name earlier).

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:21 AM

Oh, Gargoyle, come in Gargoyle. Can you hear me Gargoyle, over? Gargoyle will you come back give us your take on this, please. Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 11:47 PM

I agree on the songs and the great number he has posted Bill. But he knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he started this. I think that's why this one hit me harder. Generally Conrad's rantings are buried within a music thread and he has a few who whack him around regularly (to no avail) there and then. This one had no other meaning or significance except to stir things up.

Kinda reminds you of ol Garg, doesn't it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 11:33 PM

no...I think he has the message by now...too bad he had to start this, because he has posted a LOT of neat songs and has provided a real service. I guess everyone has their blind spots....

I wonder if he really thought that NO SURRENDER in the title was a non-threatening post?

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Amused
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:36 PM

Hey, Boys & Girls!!

Unless he's changed it since January's postings, Conrad #1 Ignorauns' e-mail is [e-mail]

Let's all express our sincere appreciation, direct, by sending him the largest graphic files our browsers can attach!!

Maybe once a day for the next, oh, month or so?

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:22 PM

This news excerpt seems particularly apt:

"Recently the Washington Post asked readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding, subtracting or changing one letter, and supply a new definition. Here are some recent winners:

Ignoranus, n.: A person who's both stupid and an asshole."

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:14 PM

Alison, you demonstrate your Irishness over and over again. And you prove again that this has nothing to do with where folks say their prayers.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: alison
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:05 PM

If you want to sing a song...... try this one

North and South of the River

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 09:49 PM

It isn't of course.......For Conrad #1 Pissant will continue babbling til he tires of this thread and then will launch another gem. That's the history. Some are less noticed because they have a strictly musical title. Timing in this case demanded a more open piece of rampant stupidity. I asked in the very first post up there to let this turkey alone, but I knew it'd never happen. If all of you hadn't responded, good old Conrad Bloody would have kept on refreshing with additional crappola ad infinitum. He has a long and storied past on the net and that's just how he works, so don't give a thought to "ignoring" him....It doesn't work and his "ignorance" knows no bounds. I generally just watch him go along, but he's getting real old around here with me.

Ignorant dissent, thy name is Conrad.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: little john cameron
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:57 PM

Weel done amused,ah had that suspicion myself.And the two McGraths are right tae. Ah hope that is the end o'it. LJC

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,formerly appalled, now AMUSED
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:49 PM

Firstly, a thank you to both the McGraths for interjecting some sense & sanity.

Secondly, I should have checked before, But *Conrad Bladey #1 Fuckwit is writing from Baltimore, Maryland,USA!! and egging the Orange Mayhem on from a safe, 3000 mile distance. I was wrong before; this chappie is more than an arsehole, he's an armchair, dilletante arsehole, and all!!

Would be really funny, if it wasn't so disgusting. Get a life, Conrad. Please.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:34 PM

Frank, as usual, you are spot on. Thanks for giving me pause to think. Both you and the other McGrath (of Harlow) have put a fine pencil to it. I dtír na ndall is rí fear na leathshúile, buachaillí.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:38 PM

And the numbers of Orangemen at Drumcree are getting
smaller
and smaller
and smaller
and smaller
Keep up the good work Conrad...
Your logic and posturing is so convincing that soon you will isolate yourself into oblivion. Bit by little bit you are eroding your own reason to exist and you will realise that all these contorted "facts" you expound are really just to fool yourself.
You are certainly not fooling anyone else.

Frank McGrath

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:27 PM

Yes, it's true enough that "Protestants/unionists in Northern Ireland are deprived of no basic human rights." But it's also true that some of them are frightened of losing the power that they believe protects them from being a persecuted minority in Ireland. They feel increasingly isolated. They know that most people in England by now have very little sympoathy at all with them, and would long to be rid of any conection with them.

And they know that in a few years time they will be in amionority in Northern Ireland, and that there will be nothing to prevent an end to Partition as things go.

That's a frightening situation for people who have been brought up thinking that the only thing that protects them is the Union, and their ability to dominate their corner of Ireland.

And those are things to try to understand.

The truth is they have nothing to fear in an end to division within Northern Ireland, and in time to an end to division in Ireland, whatever form that takes. (Within a European Union where the regions are increasingly going to be more important for some things than the nations, all kmionds of possibilities are there. A reunited Ulster as a separate European region would have a lot to be said for it.)

And a lot of people from the Unionist background do indeed see it that way. But it's going to take time for those that don't to disentangle themselves from the distorted history that still imprisons them. What is needed is to have people who have roots in the Unionist and Loyalist traditions to help in that process. And in Northern Ireland there are those who are doing that.

Irish people abroad, whether their sympathies are Republican or Unionist, have a right to take an interest in what happens in Ireland. But not to try to stir up the hatreds that their brothers and sisters back in Ireland are risking their lives every day to move away from.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 06:53 PM

Conrad, you're trying my patience with the MLK connection. Protestants/unionists in Northern Ireland are deprived of no basic human rights. Unlike those for whom MLK spoke. And unlike catholics unfortunate enough to have been in Northern Ireland during the 50 years of Stormont. Have you forgotten that the Stormont prime minister Lord Brookeborough, admittedly incenced by the kidnapping of his son, stated in 1955 that no self-respecting protestant should employ a catholic? In response to the outrage that this provoked, he made matters worse by saying he had really meant to say that no-one should employ anyone they couldn't trust. Have you forgotten that James Craig called Stormont "a protestant parliament for a protestant people"?

Was your heart, like mine, with the NICRA activists who marched across Craigavon Bridge in Derry in October 1968, in protest against any number of legitimate grievances - gerrymandering, employment disscrimination, housing-list rigging and more?

Incidentally, Amergin, I too was on that New Year's march to Derry that was ambushed at Burntollet, not as a participant but a journo. I saw RUC reservists (B specials) join in the assault on the student marchers. But I'm afraid some of your comments, like some other postings here, border on the facile. And when it comes to the objective of the Drumcree parade, you are plain wrong, and Mary Garvey is right.

Which reminds me, both Alison and Mary deserve special respect for looking beyond their own backgrounds and seeing the other point of view - albeit that they come at it from different "sides". In my experience there are very few who can do this - and they are always worth listening to.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM

Conrad, my brother:
I do believe that you are a man of conviction and good intentions, but that you are a victem of your people's history. I spent mylife working with Dr. Kings inner circle. As a civil rights lawyer, a political scientist working on a number of issues, including civil rights in Ireland, I apreciate your interest in Dr. King's methodology and beliefs. I urge you to read Parting the Waters about the formation of the civil rights movement, and if you ever are planing to come to the US, I would like to introduce you to veterines of the American Civil Rights movement. You will find that they ALL to my experice identify with those who marched non-violently at Burntollett and in no way identify with the Organge Order. Can you begin a movement within the structure of the Orange lodge to begin to carry on the work of the Sothern Christian leadership? I can't say, it is like Eldrich Cleaver saying that a United States without racism would be imbarassed to still call itself the United States. However, to begin with, you have to understand, it is not just marching that makes your movement like Dr. Kings, it is what you are marching for. (that for which you are marching for the gamaticisans on Mud cat). Marching for your right to be the majority oppressor is not the same as marching for equal housing - the vote - equal employment, all the things that were marched for at Burntollett. You can march for equal rights of employment, however, but then the Orange lodges would have to be marching for the rights of Catholics, and would they still be the Orange Lodges. If indeed an Orange Lodge had the courage to march for the rights of Catholics to be completely free in thier land and yours, then perhaps you could say that the Orange lodges were begining to inherit the torch Dr. King passed to us. Give it some thought, brother, and maybe you will be someone to remember in the way we remember our brother Martin.
Peace and good wishes
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Melani
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 02:37 PM

May I call to the attention of all "House of Orange", the last song Stan Rogers wrote. It's recorded on "From Fresh Water". It's also listed in the database, but when I clicked on it, nothing was there. I'm not very computer-literate. Anyway, check it out. It addresses this issue better than I could.

It's one thing to celebrate your own culture and another to do it in such a way as to intimidate others. Humans have a long history of incredible stupidity and bad behavior toward each other. It's too bad we can't evolve a little farther.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Appalled, formerly; now annoyed-
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 02:03 PM

******************The Orange order has engaged the process and has worked hard to appease theRepublican community. If you think that folks wanted civil rights marches in their neighborhood peaceful or otherwise you are very wrong. MLK did not ask permission of anyone. The situations are absolutely the same.... so too the peaceful civil rights folk had to deal with urban rampages very similar to those in NI and in fact a lot worse.

Conrad, this is absolute bullshit, boyo, and if you dont know it, you should.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:54 PM

The KKK insists thet have the right to march through a Jewish neighborhood. OK, suppose they do have that right. The real question is why do they want to?

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:50 PM

"False are the bickering reigns
Of 'Honor', of 'Homeland' of 'War'."

...Bob Beers, "Seasons of Peace"

In every country and culture there are groups which promote "celebrations of their history" which they know in their hearts are mostly "in your face" dares to their historical enemies....it happens in the USA, it happens in Africa, it happens in Latin America....and it sure as hell happens in Ireland! It happens about soccer games, it happens about languages, it happens about labor unions, it happens about 'clans', it happens about racial groups, it happens about religions, it happens about family feuds.....The flavor and details are different for each group, but it is a situation where the participants have mastered the art of even lying to themselves about their motives. Even when a 'large' % of the opposing groups are WILLING to abstain, there are those who will use whatver means necessary to inflame, incite and prolong the pain.

in EVERY claim and counter-claim there are bits of truth, and MUCH leaving out parts of the truth. There is only one way to stop, and that is..... to stop.........

"Of course it was a just war...my son died in it!"
.....Nietzsche.."Also Sprach Zarasthustra"

"It all depends on whose ox is being gored"
.....old saying..

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 10:49 AM

*The Poratadown marches have nothing to do with the battle of the boyne and the 12th celebrations. The parade simply goes to the church for a service commemorating the sacrifices of so many lives at the battle of the Somme in WWI

**I would ammend Swift's quote to read "but not enough government to be fair" The reason we broke from england in 1776 is still there- the government does not truly fairly represent its people yet.

***dead men are created as much by poor law enforcement as by anything else. The british government has a basic hands off approach to the hot pursuit of terrorism. The government knew in past years that republicans were manufacturing hundreds of petrol bombs yet did nothing to arrest those concerned. The RUC does not arrest violent rock throwing protesters it basically stands their and takes it.

****The British government blocked the parade largely because of the threat of violence from republicans. The solution would have been to enforce the peace.

*****Remember also that the Orange Order has already agreed to severely modify their customary parade traditions. No offensive songs only religious hymns common to both traditions, limitations on regailia, no playing in front of churches and careful self policing to eliminate hatred. The last parade or even last two parades which were allowed to proceed followed those rules so a good record was established. In a free country there should be nothing wrong with such a peaceful traditional act. But we must remember that under britain Northern Ireland is not free for anyone- protestant or catholic.

******When you quote loyalist paramilitaries you are quoting terrorists who are outside of the orange order. The orange order is extremely conservative in regard to any association or statement concerning terror. Loyalist paramilitaries are the same thugs as SinfeinIRA. In regard to violence however one must listen to Ronnie Flannagan head of the RUC when he said on todays bbc news when he said in effect- I undertand your anger at what has happened (meaning the denial of basic rights and unfair acts by the parade commission...) As our own american founding fathers point out in their writings a people can only be pushed so far by an unfair government. Wasn't it Jefferson who said that the tree of liberty is fertilized by patriot's blood? At some point liberty is worth the sacrifice and that point is to be determined by the people of Northern Ireland and not self appointed liberal minded folk from outside.

******The Orange Order did not fight at the battle of the boyne as it was not in existence. In the battle mercinaries were to be found on both sides. If you wish to cite history, learn it- see my pages- Click here

********Basic freedoms do not stop anywhere. A public road is a public road. All should have the right to freely and peacefully walk it. Note that the catholic parade was given the right and was not protested-even when it dissobeyed the commission- the double standard is an important part of the issue.

******************The Orange order has engaged the process and has worked hard to appease the republican community. If you think that folks wanted civil rights marches in their neighborhood peaceful or otherwise you are very wrong. MLK did not ask permission of anyone. The situations are absolutely the same. And remember too that as the Orange must put up with the violent loyalist fringes so too the peaceful civil rights folk had to deal with urban rampages very similar to those in NI and infact a lot worse.

******************************Buying peace with money is not the way to go. It is a shame that officials always mention the impact of protest on tourism when they should concentrate upon the impact of government upon freedom. When government angers a wide population to a high level something is not being done to represent them fairly. Lets have freedom and justice first and worry about tourism later. The attempt by the USA and other countries to pay off those seeking freedom with economic investment is a tragedy. There is no reason for violence based only on poverty.

All for now!

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 09:08 AM

Written just 16 years after the 1690 battle in Portadown, I still think Jonathan Swift's quote is the best concerning the whole mess:

We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: sledge
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:48 AM

Unfortunatley gents, his kind of biggoted raving has, and probably will continue to generate far too many dead men.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:39 AM

And, it's all in the name of religion. Trying to get through to conrad reminds me of an old saying: ON A DEAD MANS DOOR, YOU CAN KNOCK FOREVER.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:06 AM

MrGrath

Thanks for the posting of the context from the Observer. I guess that alone really shows just how much peace the Orange contingent and Conrad the peasant really wants.

They want peace for all???

Sailor Dan

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Astorkhan
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:14 AM

... and by the way, the Orange were just opportunistic dutch mercenaries who "worked" for whoever paid best. They even worked for the french aha

JL

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Astorkhan
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:07 AM

I could not read the whole thing, Conrad. This is too much to bear.

I'd like to remind you that anyone's freedom of WHATEVER stop where anyone else's begins. This is the reason why proselytes of any kind were finally erradicated by western civilisation, eventhough much too late to my own taste. Or were they? The word is still in the dictionary. To me, from my far-away-from-everything-little-village, provocation like this stupid march in northern ireland is just an excuse to maitain violence in part of one of the so-called occidental democracies. I even heard that the democracy in question was selling training periods for armed forces from other democracies in northern Ireland. What a nice way to make a quick quid! What if this march was actually the result of a manipulation from... well, fill up the blanks so that money can flow in and that armies from ...futb can have the training they "need". What if papranoid Ludlum was right? After all, one of the most likely scenarii for forthcoming conflicts is civil war.

May the 4th B with U

JL

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 07:02 AM

What a cheerful little song - and here is the context for it from todays Observer: "The spectre of sectarian murder haunts Northern Ireland again after a warning that loyalist terrorists plan to kill a Catholic a day if today's planned Orange Order march at Drumcree is blocked."

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 04:42 AM

MaryG - good point. Two years ago, one of my op/ed pieces was about that, after a shameful fire-bombing took the lives of three young boys in Ballymoney.

There had been some national press about a major company (never named) which was considering an economic boycott. I advocated the following:

When the world finally became aware of and decided to do something about apartheid in South Africa, things changed. It took some time, protests by students, and finally, boycotts by governments and individuals.

...it is time for individuals, businesses, human rights organizations, church officials of all faiths and their congregations, and governments to get serious about sending a message of no tolerance for the hatred and killing which has pitted countrymen against countrymen in a land of such beauty, history, soul, and sorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 02:21 AM

Without getting into the discussion on any specifics of the situation in Northern Ireland, what I find objectionable to the original post, is that it seems designed to do nothing more than inflame, get a nasty response, and then say, in effect, "See what we're up against?" I also find objectionable the original post's invoking of M.L. King, Jr. in the context of the movement Conrad advocates. I don't know all the details, but I do know that a march without violence does not make it comparable to Gandhian/King nonviolence. King's was done within a moral context that included loving one's adversaries while opposing their actions, and of using nonviolent action to build community as well as to confront opposition. Is that what the Orange movement is trying to do? Is the title of your post designed to state your case AND put out an olive branch to Irish Catholics, or even understand their plight? Will it help Catholics understand YOUR plight? Doesn't look that way to me.

chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:13 AM

Actually the marches have nothing to do with honoring the dead of WWI, it has everything to do with how protestant King William defeated the Catholic King James (2nd?) at the Battle of the Boyne...

Amergin

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: mg
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:56 PM

this is what I think, and I am Catholic...and I don't know enough of the situation to make any comments but I will. I think that in theory, if it has long historical roots especially, and it is tied in to honoring the dead of WWI somehow if I recall, then it should be allowed. It is too scary for people to say who they will and will not allow on public streets. They may own their houses and shops, but they don't own the streets. Now, in practice, in reality, it might be deemed too dangerous for public safety and permits denied on those grounds. Heck, I'd like to see the Protestants have a nice parade and everyone enjoying some music and setting up hot dog stands and getting more prosperous as a result of it...

and speaking of which...if someone could only approach this from economic grounds...money wants to flow to Northern Ireland but is blocked by the fear of violence...if people's self-interest could be appealed to it might move things along a lot faster.. mg

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:36 PM

An excerpt from the AP...great way to express and celebrate one's culture, eh? Like I said...the stupidity brings no one validity and no respect will be given to such tactics...it is sickening...

In the latest riot statistics Friday, police said 37 officers and two soldiers had been wounded during the course of 145 attacks on their forces, including a dozen gun attacks. They had no statistics on injured civilians.

Police said they had seized 268 gasoline bombs and arrested 55 people.

In addition children's schools, Catholic and Protestant, have been bombed and burned, as well as homes of families. There can be no justification for any of it.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE PORTADOWN RACES
From: *Conrad Bladey Peasant-Inactive
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:30 PM

Ok Someting for the Geordies enjoy!

The Portadown Races

(Tune- The Blaydon Races)

I went to Portadown Races, 'twas on the tenth of July,
Twenty hundred naught on a summer's efternoon.
I tyuk the bus fra Balmbra's an' she was heavy laden.
Away we went along Garvaghy that's on the road to Drumcree.

Chorus - Oh! lads ye shud of seen us gannin',
We pass'd the foaks along Garvaghy road Just as they wor stannin';
Thor wes lots o' tommies and taigies there, all wi' frownin faces,
We wor Gawn alang the Garvaghy Road To see the Portadown Races.

We flew past tanks and baracades and up to the top of the hill
Just gannin doon te the chapel itself the bus wheel flew off there.
The lassies lost their sashes off, an' the veils that hide their faces
An' aw got two black eyes an' a broken nose in gan te Portadown Races.

Chorus
When we gat the wheel put on, away we went agyen,
But them that had their noses broke they cam back ower hyem;
Sum went to Johnny Adair an' uthers to Master Saulters Chorus Now when we got to The Church thor wes bonny gam begun;
There were fower-and-twenty on the 'bus, man, hoo they danced and sung;
They called on me to sing a sang, I sung them the Boyne Water
Aw danced a jig an' swung me twig the day I went to Portadown.

Chorus
We flew across the Garvaghy Road reet into Portadown toon The clerik he was callin' there they called him Revrend Eames To gan an' cave to Tony Blair's Shew at the Parliament in Lunnin

Chorus: The rain it poor'd all the day, an' myed the groons quite muddy
Pete Mandelson had a white hat on-they war shootin' "Whe stole the cuddy"
There wes spice stalls an' Flannagan shows, and an' aud wives sellin ciders,
An' a chep wvi' a hapenny roond aboot shootin' "Now, me boys, for Gracey." - Parody of the Blaydon Races, Conrad Bladey, July 2000

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:46 PM

Did I miss something years ago? I don't recall The Rev. Martin Luther King [or SNCC or the NAACP, etc.] rioting in the streets, throwing petrol bombs, wantonly destroying property and injuring police.

Mentioning his name in conjunction with and to condone the recent deplorable behavior is one helluva perversion of fact which I, for one, do find offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:45 PM

Back in 1969 I was on the march from Belfast to Derry thta got ambushewd at Burntollet. So I sympathise with the feeling that there's something wrong if people can't walk in procession down the streets of their own country.

And I can understand the feelings of the people who came out and threw the hammers and stones and beat marchers who got separated. Decent enough people, no doubt in ordinary day to day life, ordinary Protestants, the kind who will be hurling bricks and worse at members of the RUC and British soldiers this weekend.

Because there is something wrong when people can't walk in procession down the streets. And what's wrong is the meaning which is given to marches, and asserted by them.

A march in that context is a way of showing who is in charge, who is top dog. And that was how the people who attacked the Burntollet march saw it - a bunch of the other lot exerting a claim to extend its authority into territory that wasn't theirs.

And that is just how the people in the Garvaghy Road see the Drunmcree march.

Well, in the case of the Burntollet march it wasn't that at all, it was a march about Civil Rights and an end to the division within Northern Ireland (not the division within Ireland - that wasn't what we were marching for at all, and there were more than a few people on the march who didn't even see it as something they hoped for in the future.) But the misunderstanding was an easy one to make, given the traditions of the country.

And I'm sure that there are those among the people raring to march at Drumcree who do not in fact see this as being for the old reasons at all - they tell themselves it's not a question of showing the Teagues who is in charge at the end of the day, it's a way of showing that the Protestant people of Northern Ireland are not to be treated as second class citizens, fit only for the dustbin of history.

But the meaning of the march can't be altered as simply as that. It's been a march of domination for too long to be turned round like that into an innocent assertion iof dignity. And the opportunities have been rejected which might have helped the people in the Garvaghy Road reinterpret it in a way that would make it accepted as a non-threatening expression of cultural identity. "Croppies Lie Down" is what the march is still saying, and they won't.

When the marches of domination are a thing of the past there'll be room for the celebrations of cultural identity, and the bands and the paraphernalia. But that day hasn't come yet. It will. The madness at Drumcree just holds it back. But it might hold it back a long long time if it succeeds in putting a torch to the spirit of Good Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: bbelle
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:50 PM

Are you referring to "Pat" Buchanan?

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,Roy Buchanan
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:46 PM

(What key did I play The Messiah Will Come Again in?)

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:41 PM

Dear Conrad
Those who have voice opposition to your opinions on this thread do not understand you or your argument. Thay have not studied your statements and have refused to put themselves into your situation.

But you have made your case very clearly to me. You don't want to convince your opponents of the just cause of your standpoint. You want to convince yourself that you are right. That is the real objective of your thread. And when uncalculated abuse is hurled back at you it gives you reassurance that you may be right despite your own doubts.

But do not let the abuse fool you. Look closely into your own writing and you will see clearly the traps set to inflame others into deluding you.

But I shall not let you down in such a way. You have convinced me beyond doubt that you really do not believe your arguments to be correct. Do not chide yourself overtly at this realisation but dream... dream like the man you and I admire so much, the late Dr. Martin Luther King. Dream his dream of the time when "Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, Black and White" can all sing united together, "Free at Last, Free at Last, Thank God Almighty, Free at Last".

Frank McGrath

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:49 PM

Fionn, great post!!

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:27 PM

Conrad:
Here is an idea. In the US, the KKK claimes not to be anti catholic anti jewish and anti black, however, their traditions and contued actions show otherwise. Now, we in the nationalist community DO remember and honor that the Protestant comunity has commited unprovoked and irrational acts of kindness, such as the building of one of the major Catholic churches in Belfast, if memory serves, about one hundred years ago. In stead of the emphasis on the pissing match of a parade (and by the way, I oppose the Saint Patricks Day Parade in NY as long as it is anti gay,- as a straight Republican) How bout an energetic and well organised exchange of good works for each other's community in stead, and AFTER such acts of forgiveness and progres, we wont mind marching in each other's back yard, because the threat will be gone.
Have a drink on the idea and a song or two on the idea?
Slan
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:25 PM

So Wendy Richards "soon lost" any Geordie accent when she went to Albert Square? Well that definitely wasn't a Georgie accent she had when she sang along with Mike Sarne on "Come outside," oh, maybe 20 years before Eastenders (which kicked off in 1984 I think). And thank God for the thread creep.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Terry K
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:12 PM

Ritchie from Gateshead

Good to hear a semi-sensible view expressed in this otherwise nonsensical thread. However, you suffer from certain inaccuracies, to wit;

Roy Chubby Brown is from Thornaby, 2 miles from Middlesbrough and nowhere near Geordieland.

Harry Pearson I don't know - perhaps I should?

Vin Garbutt is from Skelton, just to the east of the Boro - he and I were at Wilton ICI together as apprentices - again, he has no Geordie in him at all

Chris Rea is of the Rea's ice cream family based in Middlesbrough and Redcar (where I went to school)

David Coverdale I don't know

Wendy Richards soon lost any Geordie accent when she went to Albert Square!!

Gazza, the only one you ascribe to the Boro is a true Geordie born and bred - what he's doing at the Boro, God only knows (do you want him back??? - thought not)

But hey, this is better than all that spurious Irish nonsense that's been done to death so often in the past and truth to tell, we Boro lads probably don't hate Geordies at all - my wife's family come from Gateshead.

On reflection, that could explain a lot...........

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:04 PM

Sorry, I got my slash the wrong way round. I hope my incompetence with html doesn't run on through the rest of the thread, or - worse - go on to contaminate all succeeding threads.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:58 PM

Amergin, Intolerance of catholicism was by no means confined to Ireland within the British Isles. Neither was having to celebrate Mass in caves the worst of what catholics had to endure in Ireland. The penal code was about the meanest, most discriminatory legislation you could imagine.

But when it comes to barbarity in the name of Christianity, I doubt whether the reformed churches ever got to base camp.

Queen Mary had hundreds of prods burnt at the stake; the Spanish and French inquisitions did that and worse (like crucifying them back-to-back on doors) to thousands; religions, cultures and even civilisations were destroyed in (now) Latin America in the name of catholicism, etc,etc.

And priests all over the world having, through the confessional, pryed into the private lives of a gullible laity, turn out in many instances (hundreds in the USA alone) to be at least as perverted, evil and downright hypocritical as any of their parishioners.

When we marvel at the unionist fear of a united Ireland, it's worth remembering that until only the last few years, divorce and contraceptives were illegal in Ireland, and the works of Frank O'Connor, Edna O'Brien and hundreds more were banned. Dr Noel Browne had to resign from government in the fifties for bringing forward legislation for family welfare, which the church saw as an intrusion on to its own territory. And attending Trinity College Dublin was punishable by excommunication. I am not making this up.

Broadly I'm with the nationalists in Northern Ireland, but it's nothing like as simple as the green lobby often presents it. And paradoxically I have no time for nationalism in any other context.

Sorry to be longwinded, but within the context of this thread I'm peddling a fairly minority line, so I hope you'll be forbearing.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: bbelle
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:57 PM

That word "fuckwit" is beginning to grow on me. Think I'll add it to my vocab. This is not to diminish your appalledness, guest appalled, for I do agree with your thinking on this one.

Say ... Does a "diminished" thread have the same properties as a "diminished" chord. Sorry for the threadcreep ... I just like to know stuff ...

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: GUEST,appalled
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:42 PM

In light of his continued posts,perhaps Conrad is just taking the mickey- difficult for me to believe someone could be such a pig-ignorant, blind, dogmatic, obnoxious fuckwit in real life.

But I've been wrong before.

Subject: RE: BS: ORANGE SING A LONG NO SURRENDER
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 06:30 PM

Conrad, boyo, at least in this thread, I choose to feed you no more.

Big Mick