A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?

Subject: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: kinderfolk
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:44 PM

Dear Mudcatters,

With all of the guest postings and the obvious negative effects and intentions, is it time for this site to become a membership only site?

I hardly ever post, yet I feel I've come to know many of you. I admire how free and open you are. It is obvious that one of you has hurt another, a woman Mudcat, very badly.

If everyone was allowed only one membership name to post under, maybe the kind of dishonesty and meanness we are seeing right now would be prevented.

Well, anyway, thank you. It is just a suggestion.

kinderfolk

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:58 PM

kf--

Although I am still pretty new here, I can tell you that this has been an ongoing debate which usually winds up on the side of free access and self-policing.

The ugly stuff usually dies down pretty quickly, and REALLY ugly stuff is actually more laughable than truly painful-- at least when I and some of my pals have had our turn, this is how we have seemed to feel.

I think most everyone here has many more good experiences here than bad ones. It can be hard to keep one's attention on that when the stuff is running freely (and downhill), but it does always come back up to a lovely level again. Some people will say that the good old days were much better and are gone forever, and maybe that is so. But we each have an opportunity to make a whole new "GOOD-NOW-DAYS" season at the Mudcat. And, like the rest of life, that's about the best we humans can manage, eh?

So I hope you will post oftener and keep posting, which is a way you can do your part to make this a good place for all.

~S~

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST,Hilary in NZ
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:00 PM

I am really surprised this has not been suggested earlier. I'm posting this from the point of view of both a guest and a new mudcatter. I would understand completely if it became membership only as I am always amazed how easy it is to get involved and contribute, but I would also be sad for that same reason. I like to be able to just pop in anytime, but I go away, or get busy and I feel a membership would make it more compulsive.
Yes, I have mudcat addiction phobia.
Which is why I stay a guest. By the way - I think all these controversial threads are just the greatest - I sit here and shake with the giggles. If people are going to get personal, why don't they use the personal messages system???
This is another reason I don't want to become a "member" with all the trimmings...I want my mudcatting to just stay as access to a wonderful resource with the added bonus of erudite/insane chat.
I have enough relationship issues in real life without creating more in cyberspace.
luv ya all
Hilary

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:06 PM

No kinderfolk.... The Catter in question is OK and restricting the joint simply stops many new folks from making requests. We put way too much emphasis on the crap and not nearly enough on the good stuff, probably because we take the good stuff for granted. We've been through worse and we'll go through worse yet....but its been really fine lately til we stumbled up here a bit. Let's keep it an open friendly place and try not to go off on any paranoid ramblings as some have done. I did it myself at one point until I realized what a time waster it was.

Post some of that good stuff we generally hear from you and let's all lighten up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:23 PM

I dont see how just being a member will do away with the flammers. If they use a pseudonym, you dont know who they are anyway (Gargoyl for instance) I could come on as Bandersnatch and get real nasty, and who would know who I really am?

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Pene Azul
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:24 PM

Absolutely Spaw. Lets bury that nasty stuff with positivity. We have plenty of it here. Let's see some more, folks.

PA

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST,junebug
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:25 PM

I did join mudcat with the handle JB3 a couple of years ago, but have since changed computers. I had fears of all sorts from someone finding and stalking me, to I don't know what! But I've since felt that I could give my full name and I often have. I should find out how to get my screen name back (actually, I'd like to change it to junebug) but I haven't bothered. I'm an infrequent visitor these days, altho I am always delighted when I'm able to get here. Allowing guests also lets me post to the forum when out of town and on my mom's computer, as I'm doing now.

June Burton

---

June - I sent instructions by e-mail to the address on your Mudcat registration. If you don't get it, click on my name below to send me e-mail.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: dwditty
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:26 PM

Since "membership" consists only of saying "make me a member" (and choosing a name), I don't see a whole hell of a lot of reason to make a distinction between members and non-members. The few guests who stop by to try to raise a ruckus usually leave pretty quickly anyway, Those that stay, become members whether they actually sign up or just fit in by their presence and their willingness to become part of this.
dw

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:34 PM

Hey Junebug......Were you around Berea during the days of Ethel Capps? I seem to recall you did some Christmas dances you mentioned once here.

Spaw

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:34 PM

There are many good points raised for and against membership. I think a change in format would discourage new members from gaining an interest in folk and blues music. Since we want to encourage that, I am generally against making it a members only club. Spaw is a venerable member and I support his position. On the negative side, I would appeal to Max to moderate on occasion; and to try and identify and stop those who post in an offensive manner. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:37 PM

Kendall, an example would be a paid membership and to require a user name and password to enter this site. Using a system like that coupled with strict moderation would probably cut out all the nastiness but IMO, it would also be the death of the Mudcat that most of us love.

Any public forum is going to have problems from time to time but Mudcat is IMO as good as you can possibly get for an open forum. As others have suggested, let's just enjoy it for its good points of which there are many.

Jon

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:37 PM

I don't like the idea of making this an exclusive place, this is like a city, folks come here to learn, play, make friends, whatever... If you start gating it, it will only to serve to isolate us, not bring us together like it's meant to.

BTW, Kendall, if we see some one by the name of Bandersnatch, we'll know who it is now, won't we? ;)

Amergin

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:44 PM

Being a member doesn't mean you have to come here more often, hilary; and if you don't want personal messages, just don't open them up. All right you might get curious -"you have 15 active messages" - hard to resist having a quick look.

But it's handy being able to put a trace on a threread you're interested, and there's other useful features.

And it means noone else is ever going to be able to post in your name (unless they sneak into your computer of course).

Mudcat addiction, for all we joke about it, is potentially a real problem. But I can't see how it makes any difference whether you're a member or not.

I don't think making it members only would eliminate the sort of non-members we'd be better off without. All you need to register is to have an email address, and you can get them as easy as writing on a wall. A membership only policy could well end up making it worse - and as has been pointed out, for all the occasional crap, this is a pretty good set-up we've got here.

Maybe the only people we'd lose with members only would be the people dipping their toe in the water because they just think they might like this kind of music, and we don't want to lose them. And we'd probably also lose some non-member-members like hilary.

Anyway, it's not going to happen, because the good guys in charge won't have it. This ain't no bourgeois democracy, after all!

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:48 PM

Hey, one of the main reasons I post to this site, is that it doesn't cost me anything to do it, or register, or join or any of that other stuff. If having a good time means you have to pay for it, it pretty soon stops being a good time.... Not everyone has the bottomless purses and wallets that some might have. And if I had to pay, I might be here a lot less.

LTS who would prefer to forgo the 'well that's one good reason for charging' messages, OK?!

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:54 PM

Besides all the above points, most of us know that it is usually a member posting as a Guest that causes the nastiness. Also, it is so easy to get additional e mail addresses that one person could be 5 or 6 different members. One through the regular ISP, one on hotmail, one on aol, etc. that there really is no point in a members only policy. Let's just be grown ups, and deal with it.
(And Bandersnatch, just look out, will ya? No snatching banders on the Mudcat!)

OK, this is submit number who knows, I hope they don't all show up. I have had a devil of a time submitting posts all day..........

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:05 PM

Dont worry, I'm not the type to hide behind a pseudonym. And, stalking me would not be a very smart thing to do!!

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:13 PM

I hung around as Guest before joining, and I still post as Guest (but add Mrr) from work because I delete all my cookies so our Internet cops will at least have to use sophisticated ways to tell where I go while AT work. (Which is the Mudcat at least three times a day, generally morning break, lunchbreak, and afternoon break. The fact that I stay about 2 hours each time is a separate thing...) - Were this club to become MO, I wouldn't be able to hang out here from work... which my employer might not mind, but I'm the bloody member! And the several who pointed out that anyone can become a member at the drop of an @ also make the excellent point that therefore, there is no point in restricting membership anyway.

And I posted as Guest (without the Mrr) once by mistake, and once to ask an etiquette question. I concealed my identity in that instance to avoid embarrassing someone whom I like and respect, and I was glad I had when I got my answer.

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:13 PM

Don't worry Sorch....Kendall ain't been able to band a snatch or do anything else with one in a coon's age.

Spaw

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:15 PM

I hung around as Guest before joining, and I still post as Guest (but add Mrr) from work because I delete all my cookies so our Internet cops will at least have to use sophisticated ways to tell where I go while AT work. (Which is the Mudcat at least three times a day, generally morning break, lunchbreak, and afternoon break. The fact that I stay about 2 hours each time is a separate thing...) - Were this club to become MO, I wouldn't be able to hang out here from work... which my employer might not mind, but I'm the bloody member! And the several who pointed out that anyone can become a member at the drop of an @ also make the excellent point that therefore, there is no point in restricting membership anyway.

And I posted as Guest (without the Mrr) once by mistake, and once to ask an etiquette question. I concealed my identity in that instance to avoid embarrassing someone whom I like and respect, and I was glad I had when I got my answer.

This part might be here once, and might be different from the above if this posts twice; I hit Cancel. Anyway, what I wanted to add is this: Making this club MO would eliminate the possibility of hiding one's identity for reasons of hearts of gold, as well as for nefarious purposes. And the nefarious can always create new nicknames, why not violate another Mudcat "law" while they are at it, since it is nefarious by definition?

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:16 PM

Not to mention the fact that a lot of guests drop by to look for information and/or ask questions. That is an important function of the 'cat.

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:24 PM

Hey, do you guys realize how much time Pene and I spend on cookie resets? If cookies were requeired, you guys would drive us crazier than we are already!
But the main reason I'd hate to see required membership is that it would make visitors hesitate to post a question, and posting questions and posting lyrics are the original purposes of this Forum. All the other stuff is nice, but it came later.

Hmmm. I see that I am Member Number 62. Made me wonder how 61 people got here before me. Then I figured out that most of the numbers are blank before Peter T's #58. I didn't check ALL the numbers, but the only number I could find earlier than Peter's is Max. Heck, even Dick & Susan registered after Peter and I did.
As far as I can determine, Max didn't institute cookies until August, 1997. Many of us regulars were here long before that, including Dick & Susan, BillD, PeterT, and Gargoyle. The Forum began October 1, 1996, I believe.
Click here and here for threads that may be of historic interest, some day in the distant future.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST,Intrigued
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:33 PM

Now, I realize I'm only one of those illegal-alien, lower-order-of-humanity, a-nonny-mouse GUEST types, the object of the current xenophobic hysteria here, and therefore to be (chose one or more): 1.ignored; 2.shunned; 3.suspected; 4.interned; 5.assimilated (resistance is futile!)...(see also various "VOW" threads, below)

[By the way- are any of us really what we pretend to be? Whoops, that's a whole existential thread in itself- any takers?]

But have you noticed that a good number- say seven out of ten?- of the threads that provoke the responses you claim to deplore are initiated by hallowed "Members" of the Almighty 'Cat? Conrad #1 Pissant as a shining example? Could the fault be not in your Guests, but in Yourselves? Or perhaps you should begin by taking the beam out of your own 'Cat's-eye; Praise could help you with that, I suspect.

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:39 PM

Well, only the word avoid was supposed to be in italics... and Intrigued, I really am whom I am pretending to be, I'm just not pretending to be much!

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:43 PM

Something has just percolated: you mean I can be me from work and work will never know? Explain?

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:45 PM

I suppose I'd call that begging the question, "Intrigued." If a hateful (but registered) person posts a hateful message, I know who to hate.
But I'd be better off just ignoring the message, and I'm getting pretty good at doing that; so I don't particularly care whether a person registers, or not.
-Joe Offer, not particularly xenophobic or paranoid-

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:46 PM

Hi Joe & thanks for coming to bat for the old timers. I've been here since Feb. 97 & can't get my membership to reup & that's ok but what would I do if I couldn't visit, I guess I have to under go an identity/personality crisis, have mercy. Barry

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:51 PM

Barry, your corrupt cookie is a constant source of dismay and embarrassment to me. It really bugs me that I haven't been able to talk you through fixing that dang thing. Dr. Jeri is willing to make a house call and fix your cookie. Just give her a call.
Besides, if she makes a house call, she may be able to solve the mystery of the Corrupted Cookie Caper, and help us figure out how to help other people.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:54 PM

Mrrzy-

Depends on what sort of logging/tracking/archiving software "work" has installed; some of it can be pretty damned devious, & its getting more invasive all the time. Just deleting the "history" and "cookie" files in the browser software may not wipe the record of where you've been. So be careful. You may want to check http://www.privacy.org for more info.

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:12 PM

I'd say that if your employer has a policy that forbids recreational Web surfing, they most likely have ways of detecting that you're doing it -and I'd suggest that you might be wise to follow the rules. Cookies aren't the only way you can be found out.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: bbelle
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:13 PM

If you are suggesting that "MEMBERS ONLY" will stop the flamers, it won't. Even though they most often have "Guest" in front of whatever name they are using, they could just as easily sign up for membership, with fictitious information.

There are wonderful people in the world, to whom the words "MEMBERS ONLY" would be a very good reason for them not to join. I would hate to see us miss out on some of the people.

This sounds like I live in the Emerald City, but I appreciate the premise, upon which the mudcat was founded. Any deviation means that the flamer(s) have won.

moonchild

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:17 PM

Kendall: I'd know. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST,Snanderbatch
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:41 PM

Would you, now?

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:53 PM

See, now he can't even get the snatch part right. OK everybody, let's all say a few words over "Edgar Cayce."

Spaw

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:59 PM

Yes, you probably would Doug. I never learned to be devious, and, it's too late to learn. Been meaning to ask your opinion on the gas price situation. I think the Republicans are behind the rise in price so it will help defeat the Democrats in the fall. There is no other issue for them, so, they created this one. You disagreed, saying it was the fault of the government regulations on clean air that caused it. Ok, so, why is the price of natural gas, and heating oil going to be double this winter?

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST,Edgar Cayce
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:59 PM

O salutifera vulnera domini nostri catspawti saluete in patris omnipotentia qui vos dedit. saluete in filij sapiencia qui in uobis sustinuit saluete in sancti spiritus clemencia qui in uobis nostre redempcionis opus perfecit. Amen

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:59 PM

Uh, you go ahead, Spaw...

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 10:16 PM

Folks - At least at the moment I have some very simple reasons to not sign up, reasons that don't apply to anything concerning Mudcat or any of its members or guests. On the other hand the reasons that make me post messages here indeed do apply to things and people like these.

What we/you (?) are doing here is public, regardless of any membership. I'm aware of that. If anybody objects to things I'm saying or only feels bored by them or by the fact that I'm saying them in public he may tell me ALSO IN PUBLIC. If so, simply do and I won't disturb any longer. (In the meantime I'm relying on Sir kendallot to give me a downstroke when I'm in danger of behaving wrong.)

May I add some very personal opinion?

It seems to me that every time people become afraid of something they first try to control it by introducing regulations (with the illusion that once there is a law it MUST be obeyed) instead of simply facing it (knowing and thus not having to face the fact that laws NEED NOT be obeyed as long as there is no 'police' to look after them).

What is happening at Mudcat is one of the very (much too) few examples that it IS possible to control things without 'orders from above'. Introducing any restrictions for posting messages would mean that you give away (deceive) one of the very few chances to really prove that knowing our personal responsibility to what we are doing and acting upon it is at least as good as submitting to some 'Obrigkeit' (german word, literally translates to 'abovity') and have them do it for us (that's impossible, don't blame the poor chaps for not managing it).

Thank you

Joerg

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 10:35 PM

Personally, I want to be a member of that band, Barry and the Corrupt Cookies ...

WW

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 10:46 PM

Wyo Woman you flatter me, no matter where we try to play they just won't let us in. I was thinking I'd change the name to "Blind Dew Drop & the No Tones".

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 10:48 PM

I'm personally very worried about the thickness and flaking of my toenails and the complete demise of Kendall's little buddy Edgar Cayce, for there is no joy in Mudcatville when little Cayce has struck out.

Spaw

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 12:39 AM

Ah, Jaysus, we have been here before, but ya know? At least if the flamers had to have a membership, NO DUES, still FREE, we could send them some private messages and tell them what arseholes they are without having so much of it in the threads, no matter how many names they post under.

As far as people who just visit and want to post, I cannot believe i am saying this, but maybe there needs to be a separate forum for poeple willing to take an identity and one for Guests just dropping by, that PermaMembers could cross over to, in order to help out? I dunno, just thinking out loud.

What has been going on is a bunch of shit and real people have been getting really hurt and that, to me, is NOT what the Mudcat is all about.

kat

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 12:51 AM

Kendall, my friend, it is because we have fallen behind on producing our own energy needs. I don't know that either political party can be blamed for that, and sometimes I think we become far too pre-occupied with pointing fingers. I don't know who is to blame. I'm not going to point my finger, because I just don't know. Probably there is enough blame to go around.

DougR

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 12:58 AM

DougR.

Perhaps you could show us the advantages of membership, and take your personal quarrel with kendall to your famous Personal Messages.

Undecided

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: PoohBear
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 01:28 AM

just my 2 cents worth as a new member. everyone has a degree of anonymity on this site. everyon has a degree of responsibility TO the site and everyone who comes here. Ignore the ugly, embrace the wonderful and "if you can't say anything nice, maybe you shouldn't say it at all"

Cheers!

PoohBear

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 04:46 AM

Any changes Max may make will not solve the problem. For WE ARE the problem.

So many good folk have said this in so many different ways………. The answer to this problem is very simple but maybe the fact that it is SO simple is the reason why, it is has been so difficult to actually implement?

Possibly also is the fact that the example set by some folk, being so desperate to display their quick wit, that they don't care who is feeding them the line? Or what the long term consequences of their actions may be for every contributor?

Please don't feed the animals………….. These animals bite.

If you do not feed the animals……………. They will not bite ANYONE and will go away.

With apologies to all non-human animals.

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 06:17 AM

I think that you would get fewer people who pass through staying if you have to be a member to post. I'm another person who is a member at home and posts as guest from work. I did this initially just until I got used to being a member and tried to assess how much use I be on the Mudcat at work. The answer is quite a lot as if I am sat at my desk concentrating for a long period of time I just switch to the mudcat for a change of scene.

I think I am now ready to be a member at work - the question is Can I be the same member or do I have to be a different one? I can see lots of security reasons why I would have to be a different one.

Julie

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:24 AM

Julie, peolpe who use more than one computer are asked to use the same member details on all computers. As you have joined, your details are on the Mudcat system. What you need to do is reset your cookie on your work computer.

Jon

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:32 AM

At another website I post at, they changed it to members only to try to avoid all the flaming and trolling and impersonating that was going on. It didn't make a huge difference - people soon figured out they could open a hotmail account so that they could get a new identity. I myself have 4 - but I never use them nastily - just playing different roles.

In the end what happened is that the folks who had been around a while and hated the trolling started posting in long forgotten "basement" threads, so the trolls couldn't find them (the current one is over 6000 posts long). However the trolls did find them and accused them of being elitist.

I find it amazing how in a short space of time, an online community quickly develops groups who dislike eachother, and see others as *below* them - like a whole class structure. Fascinating.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: L R Mole
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:42 AM

Well, I don't mind bewaring the jubjub bird but I refuse to shun the frumious bandersnatch. One can, after all, get anything one wants at Alice's...uh...

Subject: RE: A suggestion? Time for Membership Only?
From: Mbo
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:47 AM

If kendall is the bandersnatch, then I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob!

--Mbo