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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: PoppaGator Date: 22 Jun 09 - 01:56 PM There are too many Mudcat threads of this subject to keep track of. A month or two ago I responded to a similar thread ~ one NOT among the "Related Threads" listed above ~ after reading an interesting article on this topic which was published in Offbeat magazine. The writer had some intriguing things to say after visiting West Africa and hearing some very familiar singing. I wanted to post a link to the piece, but the magazine's website hides many articles (including this one) from the public and makes them accessible only to registered paid-up subscribers. The magazine is distributed free of charge in New Orleans, so local folks like me have no reason (except for philanthropy) to subscribe. So ~ no way to link to the published text. Best I could do was to scan the page (it was a one-full-page article) and email it to Azizi. Maybe there's some way to get it out to all the rest of y'all in general, like perhaps via the Mudcat group-page at Facebook. I found the author's theories regarding African origins to be quite plausible ~ in large part because he also showed an basic understanding of Mardi Gras Indian culture. The song/chant IS, after all, part of that culture. I can't take seriously those theorists who advance their guesses without such knowledge. For example, anyone who would transcribe a given lyric as "my fat boy told your fat boy" is betraying their ignorance of the most basic Mardi Gras Indian lore ~ it's flag boy! |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jun 09 - 07:56 PM Mbo - you are a freaking tool & a utter & bloody disgrace to the mane of all italians!! - Giacomo or Jacomo is JAMES!!! - Giovanni is John!! Stupido stronzo che non sei altro!! |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,toddletunes Date: 10 May 09 - 12:10 AM Hi y'all, I'm fascinated by the diatribe generated by this topic!!! Given all the reference to Italianism i.e. Giacomo, etc... has anyone considered (as it sounds on Dr. John's recording) 'Andante' is the Italian name for the tempo describing walking? As in Giacomo fino (is done) an-dan-day (walking) Think 'Jack don't walk this earth no more, Jack is dead' as you listen to Mac sing 'Jockomo fino an-dan-day, Jockomo fin-a-ne' I'm not sold on any particular interpretation btw, but that resonated with my interpretation. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:34 PM fergie38, let me hasten to say that I didn't mean to imply that there's no such movie scene. I just meant that unfortunately, I know nothing about it. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM fergie38, I don't know which movie you are referring to. But here are links to two YouTube videos of The Dickie Cups singing "Iko Iko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrHdbZN5K2s Dixie Cups - Iko, Iko. [The poster's summary just says "show". I wrote a comment asking for information about which television show and what year it was filmed, The women are shown performing on a stage, and not shown banging on a glass bottle. However, I've read that the song was recorded as the women were "fooling around" in between takes at a recording studio. I doubt that there is actual footage of the first time they sang this song that they learned in New Orleans. ** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D21nsqe0F-4&feature=related Iko Iko- The Dixie Cups [This is the original recording of the Dixie Cups singing "Iko Iko"; there is an album cover of the group and there's no video] |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:29 AM Do you remember what movie had a scene of the Dixie Cups recording this song? They were banging on a coke bottle. What movie was that? I'm a music teacher and I'm trying to find it for my class. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:45 PM i just found out what ring around the rosie was all about!! -GUEST 16 Oct 08 I absolutely don't want a discussion about the meaning of the game song "Ring Around The Rosie" to be mixed into this discussion about the meaning of the words to "Iko Iko". That said, Guest 16 Oct 08, I hope you read this Mudcat thread before you tell your child that made up story about the meaning of that children's game that keeps on being discounted but people still keep passing it on as the truth and nothing but the truth. Pay heed to these words from yesteryear {or thereabouts}: Subject: RE: Origins: Ring Around The Rosey's History?? From: BuckMulligan - PM Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:33 PM danensis, while there may be links between some "nursery rhymes" and events in history, that's insufficient evidence for linking a particular rhyme to a particular event. Linguists, etymologists, and folklorists generally refuse to accept the link between "plague" or "Black Death" or any other particular event, eipdemiological or otherwise, and the "rind [sic] around the rosy" rhyme. It is a "folk etymology" unattested by hard evidence. You can still believe in it if you like, of course, but you're engagin in an act of faith, not science. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM So um........ What's the song about!?!?!LOL I have spent to much time reading, and have no time to jump in, but I will be back. You guys are all pretty intelligent! I just wanted to know if I was teaching my child some horrible song!! ( i just found out what ring around the rosie was all about!!) |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,¢¾ RezzaBo ¢¾ Date: 23 May 08 - 07:19 AM Ok, this is just way too confusing. I've looked up lyrics to the song but can't get any translations so far I know it could mean: "Help I've fallen and can't get up", "Get out of my way" A man's name, or " Jack is dead" Yeh, that's useful! And I can't even determin which one fits best because I have no idea what "Iko, Iko Unday" Means! Plus it's by heaps of people: Aaron carter, Cyndi Lauper, and some other early version and apparently it's a clapping rhyme! This is not very useful information! The reason nobody can translated into the direct meaning is everybody has different opinions on what language it's in. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Mr Red Date: 25 Mar 08 - 08:47 AM So am I Any song that mentioned the man dress in red gets my attention. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:13 AM Well, there's some temptations that I can resist. But I'm not tellin which ones those are or aren't. Hey now! Iko Iko all day [since] Jacomo finane, let the good times roll! :o)) But this doesn't mean that I completely accept the explanation you cited, Chicken Charlie. Maybe there's more than one meaning. Maybe there's a literal meaning for that phrase, and one or more colloquial meanings. And maybe those colloquial meanings changed overtime or in different circumstances among different populations of people. I don't know anything about this...really. But I'm having a good time thinking about it. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:49 PM Azizi--If we could resist the temptation, we wouldn't be in Mudcat. :) |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:39 PM I don't know anything about this, but ....." Sorry. I couldn't resist the temptation. Carry on! |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:46 PM Yes, oh relative one, but Jacomo fino/fina still means Jimmie is cold and stiff. He's not a waiter, and he's not a Hawaiian. Now I'm going to go back and count the posts that start out, "I don't know anything about this, but ....." CC |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Mr Red Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:27 PM As I always say about songs/customs that are old - you can't fully understand (even with sensible lyrics) unless you lived in those times - I offer the Monty Python sketch as further evidence "You try telling young people today and they just won't believe you". And as with Shanties - if there were two meanings there is no law (or lore) that says they can't both apply. Even in the mind of one person, let alone a whole tribe. And if "Iko Iko" is proving hard to pin down - how about the "Jolly Trolley" chorus in "A Trooper Watering his Nag"? And what would "Tra La La" mean 100/200/300/400 etc years ago - a meaning for every century plus the modern one of "nonsense". See that King all dressed in red? ........ |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:18 AM I found the source of my insight: liner notes from the 33 rpm with "Meet the boys from the battle front ...." I wanted to refresh this thread anyway. CC |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM I haven't the strength to read through the whole thread, so maybe somebody already said this--but anyway: "Jacomo fino" means that James is dead. You got "Jacomo finane" from an extra nonsense syllable tacked on the end: "Jacomo fino, eh!" The reason it's important that the old grouch has kicked the bucket is that he was a real curmudgeon and didn't believe in allowing all the shenanigans that people liked to indulge in when celebrating Mardi Gras. Now that he's gone, we can let 'er rip. Jacomo fino, hey, hey, hey; Have more fun on holiday .... Wild T. The Jacomo in question was a real person in New Orleans, and somewhere I have more info on this stashed away, but I have to find motivation to look for it. :) So there you go. Chicken Charlie/Charles Poulet |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 22 Mar 08 - 07:24 PM Here's a version of this song that I just found on this website of children's rhymes: http://www.streetplay.com/discus/cgi-discus/show.cgi?75/75.html Girl Games Clap and Rhyme: Archive through June 8, 2000 My grandmother and your grandmother, sittin by the fire My grandmother says to your grandmother, gonna set your flag on fire Talkin bout hey now, hey now, iko iko anay Talkin bout fena, ana lay, talkin bout fena lay. My fat boy and your fat boy, sittin by the fire My fat boy says to your fat boy, gonna set your flag on fire Talkin bout hey now, hey now, iko iko aney Talkin bout fena, ana lay, talkin bout fena lay. -By Anonymous on Monday, May 1, 2000 - 06:37 am ** I wouldn't be surprised if the children who recited this rhyme {while doing handclaps or jumping rope?} hadn't ever heard the "Iko Iko" song. How 'bout this rhyme as an example of folk etymology? I'm just lovin it. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: EBarnacle Date: 06 Feb 08 - 02:47 PM It means that Mardi Gras was yesterday. Have a good Lenten fast. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: PoppaGator Date: 06 Feb 08 - 01:15 PM Interesting post to have appeared yesterday, on Mardi Gras Day 2008. When trying to nail down particulars, the finest details, we're geting into territory where NO ONE knows the true answers. If the current-day Big Chiefs and tribe members don't know for sure, believe me, the "outsider" experts are really just guessing. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,A Creole Muur Date: 05 Feb 08 - 02:07 PM Jacomo = joking/jester fi na ne = finis/finished All joking is done! hence, the setting of flags on fire. Don't know how this one fits in with the Jacomo. But FYI, Captain Jack is an indian who fought to keep the Europeans from their westward movement in stealing the indians land. As late as 1841, this land was the etats unidos de mejico. Even before that the indians fought the french for Louisiana & lost. The Louisiana Purchase was the selling of the forts and the roads leading up to it. When they illegally jacked the land, the indians/aboriginals took a stand to fight. The Washitaw Nation (Nat Turners descendants) in Louisiana have won their land back that was illegally caught up in the Louisiana Purchase. Attempting to fit that in and knowing that in many languages there isn't a proper English translation. Maybe the line is Jack (Either Capt Jack or Jack being a symbol of all the indians) is finished playing with you. It's time to kill you. The grandma's = Queens of each family (matriarchs) sat down to negotiate about the land. Couldn't come to a common ground and so the war to inihilate the other ensues. They send the Kings to battle. The man dressed in green is a loving machine. The indians practiced love, truth, peach, freedom and justice. It's a war song. Before you go into war you fast. Hence, the timing with Lent: 40 days/40 nights. Still putting 2n2 together from our history and folktales |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 09 Jan 08 - 03:05 PM So what orwho is Jacomo? A waiter? |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,MDaviet Date: 09 Jan 08 - 12:42 PM The literal translation of the Cajun phrase "fi na ne" is don't stop the food or don't stop the goodies. To someone in New Orleans, it refers to a non-stop party. (Thus, the lyrics in City Beneath the Sea: "fi na ne 'til three") |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 17 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM Hello, guest Amazzed. Welcome to Mudcat! Joining this discussion forum is easy. All you have to do is click on Membership in the top right hand portion of this page and follow the instructions. Whether you join or remain a guest, I hope you share more information on Mudcat about the music and folk culture that you teach to your grandchildren. Best wishes, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,Amazzed Date: 17 Nov 07 - 12:01 PM I have spent the entire morning reading these Iko comments and it was time well spent. This is my first time at this site.I was interested in the translation of the non english words in this song and just could not find anything but a copy of the lyrics and names of those who recorded it.(over and over again). I am a fan of unusual music and teach it to my grandchildren.This is my conclusion the interpretation depends entirely on the spelling of the words and they seem to be slang.My grandmother was raised in the rural south by her grandmother.They had many terms in their vocabulary that are not in the dictionary.For example a rampshon was a large quantity of anything. I am now a big fan of this sight. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave'sWife Date: 13 Oct 07 - 01:22 AM I went and looked up some more about the Axeman and all but 2 of his alleged victims were Italian. Fi na Ne most likely is a varient of Fine meaning "Done" or "Finished". I'm settling into my theory now. There was some thoery that the Axeman was named Joseph himself but that couldn't be proven conclusively (Joseph Mumfre) but it makes sense since he singled out The Feast of St. Joseph in his famous threat. Feast of your the Saint of your name was and remains a big deal to Italians (and Irish Catholics to a degree). I may be alone in supporting this derivation, but I'm liking it more and more. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 10 Oct 07 - 08:21 AM Dave's wife, it's good "seeing" you again! I agree that the Black Hand/Italian Mafia theory is "an interesting an interesting addition to the mythology". I also guess we'll never really know the meaning/s that this phrase had for folks who started using it way back when. My 03 Aug 07 - 07:56 AM post pretty much sums up my thoughts about this saying. So, I'm not gonna repeat myself. Let the good times roll! Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Oct 07 - 10:38 PM Kanaka is the word for man in the Hawaiian language, a human being. As an adjective it means manly, strong. After c. 1820, after the kapus and relationships broke down, many young Hawaiian men needed employment and became sailors or whalers, or were hired out by the Crown to companies needing workers; they became carpenters, builders, Canadian voyageurs, fishermen, farmers, cowboys, etc. Looking for documents on some who were contracted to work for the Hudsons Bay Company, I found much of interest in the archives in Honolulu. Sailors and others called them Kanakas, and 'John' and other names were used to identify individuals. There was no specific 'John Kanaka,' but many probably answered to that name at their work. Kanaka Creek in British Columbia is named for the Hawaiians who were farmers, carpenters and builders for the Hudsons Bay Company. They built Fort Langley, packed salmon, shaped lumber, raised crops, etc. much of which reached the Hudsons Bay store in Honolulu. Many returned to Hawai'i when their term of employment was completed, but some stayed, and descendants remain in B. C. PoppaGator is correct in his use of 'term'; Kanaka became a widely used term for these men. All of this is digression which has nothing to do with Marti Gras in New Orleans, and the various myths and speculations about the song which have appeared in this thread. Dave's Wife- Your speculation about the Black Hand of N. O. is an interesting addition to the mythology. The Italians, as well as the Irish, were important in 19th c. N. O., and their stories are not well-known (Now could the song be mis-heard Gaelic?- oh, no!). |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave'sWife Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:52 PM Oh you just luve luv luv being 100! So - what about my theory that it's a covert threat from the Black Hand or The Axe-Man? Any takers? |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Leadfingers Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:46 PM 100 - And I agree with Kevin - VERY few East Africans got to America as slaves !! |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Oct 07 - 07:26 PM I noticed somebody way up the thread mention Swahili as one of the elements in patois. No way - Swahili is based on a number of languages spoken in East Africa, including Arabic. African elements in patois would be from West Africa. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 09 Oct 07 - 07:14 PM Poppagator, I certainly don't consider myself an expert on the subject of Junkanoo or on any other subject. I've joined in this discussion because it's a subject that is interesting to me. I have shared what I read elsewhere, including some Internet sites whose links I have provided, and I'm learning from everyone else here. I'm serious about this subject because I'm a serious person. But {there goes that word again!}, I do know how to have some good fun too. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave'sWife Date: 09 Oct 07 - 07:08 PM To answer my own question - Giacomo does not mean John or Joseph - it is usually translated as James, Jacques or Jacob Giovanni is John Guiseppe is Joseph Still - I can see where non-Italians would get either John or Joe out of Giacomo |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave'sWife Date: 09 Oct 07 - 07:02 PM Hmmm - let me throw something else in the mix - New Orleans had quite a large Italian immigrant population around the turn of the centruy. In fact, what we now know as the Mafia has it's roots in The Black Hand which is said to have originated there amnongst Italians running the Grocery and food supply trade Now, I was told as a child, by an aged Italian-American gentlemenwhose family originated in New Orleans that the phrase Giacomo Fi Na Ne was a Black Hand warning about what would happen to you if you squealed about the extortion racket and otherwise strangehold that the Black hand had on the Italian local economy there. He backed this up by telling the mysterious story of the Axe man of New Orleans who chopped up a few local Grocers who didn't pay their protection money. He got the story a little wrong of course, but he said that he heard the phrase uttered both as a brag and as a threat. in other words "Shut up or like Joe - you'll be dead." I know Giacomo isn't Joe in Itlaian, but my informant always said Giacomo could be translated as Joe and he read it as interchangeable with Joe and John. Guiseppe is Joseph in Italian. Still - it is kinda creepy if you read it as Joe since the name Joseph and St. Josehp's featured heavily in the Axeman Story. Giacomo is often translated these days as Jack but I could see where in the past, it might have been misperceived by non-italians as "joe". here's a link in case you want to read it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axeman_of_New_Orleans |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: PoppaGator Date: 09 Oct 07 - 06:30 PM Sorry, I wasn't trying to be that precise as to differentiate between a "referent" and an "expression." I thought the word "expression" was sufficiently generic to encompass many shades of meaning, including those two and more. I'll argue back a little about "Kanaka," though (if not about the real-or-imaginary proper name "John Kanaka"). As discussed in other threads if not in this one, the word "Kanaka" was used by American whalers and other 19th century sailors to refer to Hawaiian natives, and its use in various lyrics indicates that some folk used to refer specifically to females, others to males, and still others to the entire population. In that sense, "term" is exactly the word I meant to use. On the other hand, Azizi, I defer to your expertise in regard to "Junkanoo." All in good fun, though ~ right? Pops |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 09 Oct 07 - 06:25 PM That "But" in the first sentence of my last post is the remains of a cut & paste effort gone wrong. But maybe it's more than that. Maybe it's a sign that I should have kept my butt out of this conversation. Or maybe it's a sign that I need to butt out now. I'm not sayin that I'm superstitous or anything, but... ;o} |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 09 Oct 07 - 06:20 PM I had never thought to interpret the obscure word/phrase "Junkanoo" as "John Canoe," and therefore never imagined a possible connectin between "Junakanoo" (a Mardi Gras Indian and Caribbean expression) and "[John] Kanaka," a Hawiian term referenced in the sea-shanty literature (notably, in the very powerful number "Rollin' Down to Old Maui"). Poppagator, But maybe you misinterpreted what I and/or other people wrote in this thread, or I've misinterpreted what you wrote. But there's a difference between a word being used as an expression or a term, and a word being used as a referent for something. In the Caribbean, "Junkanoo" is a referent for a festival, parades, snd cultural events in the Bahamas. "Junkanoo" isn't an expression. Also, "John Kanaka" is a referent for a man who may or may not have been a real person. "John Kanaka" isn't a term. I'm not posting this comment to nit pick. I just feel that these clarifications need to be posted. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: PoppaGator Date: 09 Oct 07 - 05:37 PM How did boat repairs sneak into this thread? Well, it got this discussion refreshed, for what it's worth. I scrolled up to see what I had written back in April, and what others had contributed since. I had never thought to interpret the obscure word/phrase "Junkanoo" as "John Canoe," and therefore never imagined a possible connectin between "Junakanoo" (a Mardi Gras Indian and Caribbean expression) and "[John] Kanaka," a Hawiian term referenced in the sea-shanty literature (notably, in the very powerful number "Rollin' Down to Old Maui"). Interesting...Not defnitively or verifiably "true," of course, like everything else under discussion here, but interesting nonetheless. I know I've mentioned this somewhere, sometime in the past ~ maybe even up above in this thread, in which case I apologize ~ but here goes: Years ago, probably in the 1970s, I heard an interview with Mac "Dr. John" Rebennack wherein he swore that the English "translation" of "Jocky Mo Fee Nah Nay" was "Eat My Shorts." I almost peed on myself laughing ~ I had never heard such an expression before. (This was years before the appearance of Bart Simpson.) Of course, when The Simpson later emerged as pop culture icons, I enjoyed the insider knowledge that young Bart seemed to have some kind of awareness of Mardi Gras Indian culture.... |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Sep 07 - 12:27 PM Giacomo is a common Italian name (James, Jacques in English) related to It. Jacopo and Hebrew Jacob. In Italy in honor of St. James, the apostle. Yes, it is pronounced Ja' como. http://italian.about.com/library/name/blname_giacomo.htm As noted many times before, Kanaka is the Hawai'ian term for man; John Kanaka was commonly given to Hawai'ian crew members and harpooners on sailing ships, and to those who came to Canada in the service of Hudson's Bay Company, etc. Neither name has anything to do with the New Orleans Marti Gras tune. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Sep 07 - 01:33 AM Hey Jack Campin! It's a month later, and I'm just reading your post. Thanks for your warm welcome. I very much appreciate it-then and now. ** As to your question about the phrase "Do you know Giacomo?". Hmmm, that sounds a little like one of them there "rhyming expressions" that are the focus of this thread: thread.cfm?threadid=104417&messages=23 "Folklore: Puddin Tane & Other Rhyming Sayings" [That is, assuming that the name Giacomo is pronounced like Jockomo which means that it rhymes with the English word know. And, isn't the Italian name "Giacomo" the same as the English name "Jack"? So then, Jack, I'm wondering if the saying "Do you know Giacomo?" [which I've never heard of or read before reading your post] could be the source of the colloquial expression "He don't know Jack". But the sentence "He don't know Jack" actually ends with the word "sh*t", though that last word is not stated in what some people call "polite" society. But though it's silent, it's still understood. So if you want to say that a person doesn't know anything at all about anything, then you'd say "He don't know Jack". But given that colloquial expression's definition, I guess it means that "Do you know Giacomo?" and "He don't know Jack" probably don't have the same etymological roots 'cause I'm assuming that "Giacomo" is a man's name, and I think that "Giacomo means "Jack" though, on second or third thought "Giacomo" might mean "James" or "Jacob" and if so my theory about any connection what so between those two expressions is totally wacked. Do you get my drift? No? Well that's okay. Sometimes I don't know Jack. But, any ways Jack Campin, I'm glad to have met you over these internets. :o) Post script: Wanna read a witty entry about the meaning of "Jack Sh*t? Click here. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:16 PM YAY!!! Azizi's back! Wonderful! I vaguely recall a pop song of c.1970 that had the phrase "do you know Giacomo?", is that related? |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:01 PM Thanks, Q and Dave. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:33 PM May your glass never be wanting. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM I have never found you dismissive Ms Azizi, far from it. Your posts are some of the most elloquent and best considered in this old mudbox. I guess I will just have to stick to bar room discussions if I want to progress my theory - I know at least half a dozen people who will totaly believe it after a dozen pints! Who knows, in about 20 years it will have escalated to be true and not even snopes will know it:-) I shall follow the rest of the discussion from the sidelines. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:13 PM As Azizi says, it is interesting to speculate on the meaning(s), and she adds much to previous posts. That doesn't mean that a definitive answer can be found. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:02 PM It just occurred to me that when I wrote that I had read about an African word that may have been the basis for the word Jonkannu, I was thinking of the dance called "Yonvalu". I can find very little online about Yonvalu. There is apparently a book and video about the dance: http://store.soundstrue.com/vt00764d.html . That book describes Yonvalu as "a voudoun invocation to Damballa, the serpent deity." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_mythology for this description of vodou- "Vodou (also known as Voodoo) is a religion that first appeared in Haiti. It is a syncretic mixture of Roman Catholic rituals introduced during the French colonial period, and African tribal beliefs, with roots in the Yoruba, Kongo and Dahomey mythology. Another important aspect of the Haitian spiritual life is magic and serpent worship." -snip- That Wikipidia site also provides a listing of the Haitian pantheon. In that pantheon Damballah is described as the father of the loa [gods] and [of] humankind. Btw, "Dahomey" is the former name for the West African nation of Benin. Yoruba is the name of a large ethnic group in Nigeria, and the language spoken by that group. The Yoruba religion was extremely influential in the survival to this day of African religions in the Caribbean {including Haiti and Cuba}, South America {including Brazil} and the USA {including New Orleans, Louisiana}. "Nago" is an old referent for Yorubas. Persons interested in African religions in the Caribbean and South America and related topica will be familiar with that term. Jessie Gaston Mulira's essay "The Case of Vodoo In New Orleans {in "Africanisms In American Culture" Joseph E. Holloway's editor; Indiana University Press, 1990} provides this information about voodoo: "The word voodoo ...is Dahomean in origin and.., means spirit or diety in the Fon language... -snip- In that essay Mulira writes that "In New Orleans the West African voodoo cults merged into one major cult, Damballah, the snake cult, referred to in New Orleans as the Grand Zombi or Vodou" {p. 40}. -snip- Lest we forget New Orleans is ground central for the Mardi Gras Indians. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 08:28 AM Dave, I don't want you to think that I'm being dismissive of your theory about a possible connection between John Kanaka and John Canoe. It's interesting. Maybe there is a connection. And maybe not. As you know, a word or phrase from one language may sound like and be spelled like a word or phrase in another language but have different etymological roots and meanings. I recall reading somewhere that the word "Jonkannu" {which is pronounced like "John Canoe"} is similar to a West African-Nigerian {?} word. I'm trying to find where I read that. But so far, I've had no luck in finding it. ** Since you found it of interest, here's some more information on Jonkannu {Jonkanoo, Junkanoo, Kunering etc}: MS009 Cronly Family Papers 1888-1925 "These papers contain personal correspondence between Cronly family members and letters and petitions directed to Wilmington and New Hanover County government officials. This personal correspondence falls between the years 1888 and 1907... A letter to D.T. Cronly of Wilmington, NC, from W. D. MacMillan, 3rd, of Chapel Hill, NC, is in reply to Cronly's interest in Wilmington's "Kuners." Dougald MacMillan later wrote "John Kuner," published in the Journal of American Folklore in January, 1926. In a footnote to the article, MacMillan acknowledged Cronly's help in investigating the custom. Kunering was a song and dance performance done in the street by masked and costumed Negro men (Kuners) on Christmas Day. After each performance, the leader passed a hat for contributions. MacMillan's article traced the custom to only a few other coastal towns of North Carolina, and to Nassau, where these men were called "John Canoes." In Wilmington, the custom apparently died out in the 1880's." http://library.uncw.edu/web/collections/manuscript/MS009.html -snip- There appears to be clear connections between Jonkannu and West African customs as well as kunnering and the English custom of wassailing See this excerpt: it may be of interest to read this excerpt about the custom of kunering in North Carolina: "In his work Slave Culture, [Sterling] Stuckey, too, maintains "John Kunuering's" African origins. Yet he elaborates on Linda's, Cassidy's, and Prigg's discussions when he explains the import of the tradition in West Africa as well as the underlying motives behind the slaves' practice of it in the new world. In terms of its African origins Stuckey tells us, "a Nigerian ritual that closely resembles John Kunering," traditionally took place in early summer as a spiritual aid in crop production. Although "Europeans thought the John Kunering to be mainly for children, the ceremony "had a deeper significance" as it was also performed "to honor the ancestors" (Stuckey 68). And where the slave's employment of the tradition is concerned, Stuckey asserts, Knowing that in North America Christmas was the main religious period for the dominant group when families gathered, exchanged gifts, worshipped, and enjoyed the festivities of the occasion, the slaves took advantage of that time to revive African cultural expression along somewhat similar lines, since in Africa exchanges of gifts at reunions of family and friends on holidays were not uncommon, especially on important religious occasions. Exchanges of gifts, such as they were, among slaves were often accompanied by the receipt of gifts from the master and, in the context of John Kunering, "presents" in the form of donations after performances. (69-70) In other words, in practicing the "John Kunering" tradition on Southern plantations, such as Linda's, the slaves were able to mold African customs to accommodate and take advantage of a Euro-American holiday. Such blendings may have also served to satisfy an ancient need--honoring their ancestors and each other--as well as a new one--collecting much needed money and/or food. Linda's account of the slaves' Johnkannaus practice implicitly validates Stuckey's assertions. But she explicitly concurs with Stuckey about the slaves' expecting gifts from their masters following their performances. For as she tells us, "It is seldom that any white man or child refuses to give them a trifle" (119). Yet, she also alludes to another aspect of both African and slave culture, the secular song, when she writes, "For a month previous they are composing songs, which are sung on this occasion, "especially when a white man, or master, refuses to give a donation. "If he does," Linda explains, "they regale his ears with the following song:-- Poor massa, so dey say; Down in de heel, so dey say; Got no money, so dey say; Not one shillin, so dey say; God A'mighty bress you, so dey say. (119) http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2278/is_1_24/ai_58411663/pg_6 Through Slave Culture's Lens Comes the Abundant Source: Harriet A. Jacobs's Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl - Critical Essay MELUS, Spring, 1999 by Karen E. Beardslee -snip- And though some may think that we are going far from the Mardi Gras Indian phrase "Jacomo fi na ne", actually we're not because one of the roots of the Mardi Gras Indians was the kunering tradition. See this old text about the kunner parade tradition: http://www.jstor.org/view/00218715/ap020151/02a00030/0 |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 07:56 AM As PoppaGator wrote on 04 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM "I don't think we can "nail down" any definitive meanings for any of this stuff (unfamiliar words, etc.) that comes from the Mardi Gras Indians. As someone mentioned above, today's Indians themselves no longer know what all the words and phrases mean!" -snip- Also, as GUEST,guitarist wrote on 13 Jul 00 - 12:15 PM : "heh, it's a big subject -- people make careers out of question less complicated than this. It's interesting to follow the trail, but don't get hung up on absolute answers, you won't find many. Jockomo fi na ne / Brother John is gone, that's one hypothesis, there are many others -- just pick one you like. :) " -snip- I agree that 1} it's interesting to follow the trail and 2} if you get hung up on absolute answers [in the unfamiliar words that are included in the Mardi Gras Indian songs] you won't find many [absolute answers]. I also agree that 3} "Brother John is gone" is one hypothesis for the meaning of "Jockomo fi na ne" and 4} there are many others and 5} you should just pick one you like. And I also agree with Guest guitarist that you should smile about the whole thing since sometimes being too serious can weigh you down. That said, may I suggest {or re-suggest if it has been mentioned before} that there are literal meanings for words & phrases and there are colloquial meanings for those same words & phrases. And though it certainly is interesting to try to trace a word or phrase back to its/their etymological roots, it's the street meaning that is most important when you're trying to figure out what a word or phrase means to the singer and his/her audience. Members of the Mardi Gras Indians may not know the etymological meaning of the phrase "Jacomo fi na ne", but I think they do know what it means when they say it. I prefer Bob Coltman's [and others] conclusion that a "Jacomo" = a jester, jokester." But I don't think the Mardi Gras Indians mean/meant "You're a jokester" when they say/said "Jacomo fi na ne". And when the Mardi Gras Indians sing/sang "Jacomo fi na ne", I don't think they are/were saying, "John is dead". It makes more sense to me that they are/were saying "Well go f***k yourself". Or maybe they are/were saying "You're a fool". If we go with this meaning, than we'd have to note that "Jacomo fi na ne" is/would have been sung in a real put-down/dissin manner with "fool" {Jacomo} used as a substitute for the latest, most insulting street term that means something like "fool". These are just two theories. I'm sticking with door #1. But all this to say that trying to figure out where this phrase came from is one thing {or multiple things as the phrase might have had multiple origins}. And we can only speculate about those origins. But it's a whole 'nuther thing to ask contemporary Mardi Gras Indians what the phrase means to them, and what they understood folks in the past thought the phrase meant. In addition, it seems to me that folks interested in the "real" meaning of this phrase should look at the phrase in its context. How is/was the phrase used in the the context of songs and in the context of the competitive and often dangerous encounters between one group of Mardi Gras Indian and rival groups or persons who aren't {weren't} associated with their group or any other Mardi Gras Indian group? Does this jibe with the meaning that people who use it give? If so, we have struck gold. So again, I'm sticking with door #1 {btw this "door #1" is a referent to the loong running American tv game show "The Price Is Right" and has nothing to do with the "Jacomo fi na ne" phase itself} But if you don't like what I'm sayin then Jacomo- Naw. I really don't mean that. It's a joke. Get it? "A joke"? Ha Ha. Oh, I'm such a jokester {and when I say "jokester" here, I mean something good, not something insulting}. Get it? No? Okay...moving right along... Instead of the door #1 sentiments in and for my weak attempt at Jacomo witticism, I'd like to end this post echoing what GUEST,sandi said in her 04 Apr 07 - 10:36 AM post: "At least there is a real discussion going on here - even if none of us seem to know the meaning of the words." |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:40 AM I haven't read through all the thread so apologies if this has been broached before. I do have a certain fascination with etymology and like to see the threads common in various languages. Brother John is of course the English translation of the French kids song 'Frere Jacque'. John, Jacque and Jacomo (or Giacomo) being possibly the same in origin. All I can find for Finane as a name is English - and old at that - so I do not see a connection there so I am, for now, ignoring it. The more recent talk of Jonkanoo and John Canoe I found intersting. It is not a million miles from the sailors name for South Sea Islanders - John Kanaka - Spawning a sea shanty of the same name. OR did the phrase in the shanty exist first? Shanties and plantation work songs have a long and proven connection - Would the African Jonkanoo have become the English John Canoe only to be replaced on board by John Kana or Kanaka? When the sailors were greeted by the Isladers in their canoes would they have become John Canoes as well? Certainly worth a brief speculation I would have thought. Or am I talking bollocks? Should I wait until I am at the bar before bringing it up again? :-) Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Paco Rabanne Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:33 AM Nope! A question was asked by the starter of this thread seven years ago which hasn't been answered. shame really, I wanted to know the meaning. |
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