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Lyr Req/Add: Roller Bowler

radriano 11 Jul 00 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Barry Finn 11 Jul 00 - 10:44 PM
Chanteyranger 11 Jul 00 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,Barry Finn 11 Jul 00 - 11:41 PM
Chanteyranger 12 Jul 00 - 02:17 AM
Joe Offer 12 Jul 00 - 03:46 AM
radriano 12 Jul 00 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,Barry Finn 14 Jul 00 - 08:38 PM
Barry Finn 28 Jun 08 - 10:18 PM
Barry Finn 28 Jun 08 - 10:19 PM
Janie 28 Jun 08 - 10:57 PM
Charley Noble 29 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM
SINSULL 29 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM
Janie 30 Jun 08 - 12:57 AM
Charley Noble 30 Jun 08 - 08:00 AM
Barry Finn 30 Jun 08 - 04:17 PM
Bill D 30 Jun 08 - 07:29 PM
SussexCarole 01 Jul 08 - 07:00 PM
TRUBRIT 01 Jul 08 - 10:32 PM
Gibb Sahib 12 Nov 10 - 02:46 AM
Dead Horse 12 Nov 10 - 05:13 AM
Gibb Sahib 12 Nov 10 - 02:15 PM
Janie 12 Nov 10 - 07:28 PM
Lighter 12 Nov 10 - 08:16 PM
Joe Offer 12 Nov 10 - 08:25 PM
Gibb Sahib 12 Nov 10 - 09:24 PM
shipcmo 16 Nov 10 - 08:13 AM
shipcmo 16 Nov 10 - 08:29 AM
doc.tom 16 Nov 10 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Navvy Chris (of Short Drag Roger) 29 May 14 - 02:59 PM
Janie 29 May 14 - 11:11 PM
Charley Noble 30 May 14 - 11:26 AM
Gibb Sahib 30 May 14 - 03:31 PM
Lighter 30 May 14 - 05:14 PM
Joe Offer 30 May 14 - 05:56 PM
Gibb Sahib 31 May 14 - 01:04 AM
Lighter 31 May 14 - 09:27 AM
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Subject: Roller Bowler
From: radriano
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 07:20 PM

I am looking for the words to a sea shanty titled Roller Bowler. It is sometimes called Good Morning Ladies All.

In a previous thread, Barry Finn mentioned that he had the words. You around, Barry?


Radriano


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Subject: ADD: Roller Bowler^^
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 10:44 PM

Hi Radriano, Hugill has it in his Shanties of the 7 Seas but here is the version I sing:

ROLLER BOWLER

As I roved out one morning
Away you roller bowler
As I roved out one morning I met a Dou Dou fair
Away you roller bowler
Hey rig a gig a gig a ha ha good morning ladies all

The first time that I saw her
Away you roller bowler
The first time that I saw her, that saucy gal of mine
Away you roller bowler
Hey rig a gig a gig a ha ha good morning ladies all

She winked & flipped a flipper
Away you roller bowler
She winked & flipped a flipper she thought I was a mate
Away you roller bowler
Hey rig a gig a gig a ha ha good morning ladies all

(you get the repeats by now)

When she found I was a skint
She left me standing there

The last time that I saw her
Was down the waterside

Oh you ladies short & ladies tall
I love you one & all

As I mentioned in the other thread I got this from Marek Siurawski & Shanty Jack supplied a knock out harmony. I don't know anyone else who does this or has recorded it never mind finding someone out around your way so you can get the yelps, twists & turns that go so well with it. If you think an answering machine would do the trick I'd be happy to ring you. All the best, Barry ^^


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 11:15 PM

Hi, radriano and Barry -

You can also find the melody in Hugill's Shanties From The Seven Seas, pg. 260-261 in the paperback edition. The recording of it I know of is on a CD of Shay Black singing it at a French sea music festival. The CD is called "Les Musiques De La Fete: Brest '92." There are a few small differences in melody between Hugill's version and the way Shay sings it. p.s. to Barry - I tried your e mail address but it bounced back. My computer told me it lacked a domain name, the bastard.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 11:41 PM

Hi chanteyranger, try my address
( ncrbf@worldnet.att.net ) one more time. Thanks, Barry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 02:17 AM

Thanks, Barry. I'll give it another go.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:46 AM

Well, heck, Barry, my voice mail always enjoys a song...
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: radriano
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:16 AM

Why Barry, bless your sweet little sticky heart. And you too, Chanteyranger.

Barry, my answering machine is at your service. Let me know if it's a long distance call and I'll be happy to reimburse you. You can reach me at (415) 664-2858.

Hey, Joe, how's it going?

Regards,
Radriano


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 08:38 PM

Hi Radriano, did you get that ok & is that pretty close to the way Shay does it? Good Luck with it. Barry


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Subject: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jun 08 - 10:18 PM

I thought I'd put this new clip of Finn & Haddie doing Roller Bowler live from a concert we did just before Christmas at South Street Seaport NYC.
All comments will be tolerated, no tomatoes please, that not having a very good season.

Thanks
Barry


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jun 08 - 10:19 PM

Be nice if I put in a link
Finn & Haddie/Roller Bowler

Barry


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: Janie
Date: 28 Jun 08 - 10:57 PM

Damn, it is good to hear and see you, Barry! That is one of my favorite cuts on the CD you guys did.

Based on my own experiences of seeing you both perform and lead songs in a song circle, one of the things that is so powerful about your performances, im (exceedingly) ho, is the way you convey to your audience the authenticity of the music you do, and engage them in a real sense of the utility of the song to men working to haul in a sail, or prisoners chopping cotton or working a road gang.    If you have some one to man the camera, you might want to have them pan the audience during times they are also participating, like in this song, to better capture this.

Anyone who has seen you live, Barry, comes away with a sense of the real place - both the functionality and the expression of the human spirit and condition -of these chanties and worksongs in the lives, labors, loves, heartbreaks, and often grindingly laborious and mundane lives of human beings.

Keep it up!

Janie


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Barry-

The video is for sure the real thing, and Janie's right, it would be nice in the future to get some audience reaction as well.

We have some nice shots of audience reaction to your singing from the Mystic shanty sessions, most of them riveted on what you were doing, some in shock, and some catatonic!;~)
We'll post a link in the Mystic thread when we finish our editing.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM

Finn and Haddie love their music and it shows. Great fun listening, watching and singing along. Can't wait to see Barry at the Portland Maritime Festival.


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: Janie
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:57 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:00 AM


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:17 PM

Thanks, espically Janie, your 2 checks are in the mail, really.
I'll note that if we get the opportunity to video a performance again we'll have them pan the audience, they usually have as much fun as we do, hopefully. Maybe at Portsmouth?

Barry


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:29 PM

Good stuff! We listened to the CD driving back from W. Virginia in April, and I'm not sure it is safe to drive I-70 and move about in time to the songs. We survived, though.

I DO like videos...Yangtze River is also online.


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: SussexCarole
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:00 PM

Thanks for that link - great to see & hear you both & look forward to catching up with you in September.


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Subject: RE: Roller Bowler by Finn & Haddie on U-Tube
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:32 PM

Granted _ I don't have a very good ear but the tune sounded slightly different to me from the tune on the CD - just slightly....am I nuts? (well, all right - I KNOW that......)


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Subject: Lyr Add: GOOD MORNING LADIES ALL
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:46 AM

I'm not seeing this around anywhere so thought I'd enter these lyrics. Might this be the earliest source for "Roller Bowler"?

From NEGRO SINGER'S OWN BOOK, ca.1843(?), pg 334-335:

GOOD MORNING LADIES ALL
From Rice's opera of "Oh, Hush."

Down in ole Wurginny,
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
A gun dat massa gib me,
    To go an shoot de koon.

Wid a hida ka dink, ah, ah! Oh, Roley, Boley,
Wid a hida ka dink, who dare? good morning ladies all

Den I take my ole rifle,
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
Get powder for a trifle,
    And's gwan to an shoot de koon.

Wid a hida ka dink, ah, ah! Oh, Roley, Boley,
Wid a hida ka dink, who dare? good morning ladies all

Den I saw de koon a swingin,
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
Den I cocked my gun an bring him,
    And down cum Mister Coon.

Wid a...

He lodged upon a bramble,
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
Den I begin to scrample,
    To get him down de tree.

Wid a...

He dead or very nearly,
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
I tink I love him dearly,
    Cause he make such damn good soup.

Wid a ...

After dat I leabe Wurginny,
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
An go to ole Kentucky,
    On my way to New Orleans.

Wid a...

Den I got a wife on Sunday
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
My son cum down a Monday,
    An I neber seed a finer.

Wid a...

Den I sen my son to college,
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
Whar he got his sense an knowledge,
    An growed up to a man.

Wid a...

His learning cost me a dollar,
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
An now he is a lawyer,
    An soon will be a judge.

Wid a...

So I gwan away to morrow,
    Oh, Roley, Boley,
Oh, people aint you sorry,
    As I leabe Louisiany.

Wid a...


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Subject: ADD Version: Roller Bowler
From: Dead Horse
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 05:13 AM

Version I sing is completely different

ROLLER BOWLER

We are outward bound for Mobile Town
With a Heave-oh Haul
And we'll heave the old wheel round and round
Good morning Ladies all
Hooraw, you roller bowler
Timee high rig-a jig an' a ah ha hah
Good morning Ladies all.

And when we gets to Mobile Town
Tis there we'll drink and sorrows drown

Them gals down south are free and gay
Wid dem we'll spend our hard earned pay

We'll swing around and have our fun
Soon we'll be back on the homeward run

And when we gets to Bristol Town
For the very last time we'll waltz around

With Polly and Peg and Rosy too
We'll drink and dance wid a hullabaloo

So long, goodbye to all you dears
Dont cry for us, dont waste yer tears


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:15 PM

Interesting, Dead Horse.

By way of comparison, your version looks like a combination of 2 other documented forms.

The form which Hugill called "Roller Bowler" is a capstan song (or some other non-halyard form). It is the same form (talking *form* here, not lyrical version) as Barry Finn's above. And the early 1840s minstrel song has the same form, though it happens to go by the title "Good Morning Ladies All."

Hugill documented two other shanties with the phrase "Good Morning Ladies All". The second of these has a typical halyard shanty form.

Your version has the form of Hugill's second "Good Morning", to which is appended the grand chorus of Hugill's "Roller Bowler." (I am using Hugill only as a common reference -- not implying it is anything more correct.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: Janie
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 07:28 PM

The version Barry posted is included on the CD he and Neil released as Finn & Haddie, "Fathom This."

Snippet here


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 08:16 PM

Now that's how a shanty ought be sung!

Gibb Sahib also does a bang-up job on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl09G5GqQQw


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 08:25 PM

When I think of the singing of Radriano, I think of "Roller Bowler." He's really made the song his own.
Interesting that he learned it from Barry, through Mudcat.

-Joe-

Click here for a YouTube recording of Barry singing "Roller Bowler" - Radriano sings it almost the same way.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 09:24 PM

Indeed, I always think of Barry Finn when I think of "Roller Bowler." In the little tribute song to him that I wrote I included the phrase "roller bowler" as a nod to that and his "roll" in popularizing the song Stateside.

Now, I wonder how "roley boley" was sung by the minstrels?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: shipcmo
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:13 AM

Here is another CD:

               Syrenka Warszawska
   John Townley & Zawisa Czarny Crew


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: shipcmo
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:29 AM

Here's the URL:

http://www.astrococktail.com/ZCalbum.html


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Subject: ADD Version: Roller Bowler
From: doc.tom
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:42 AM

Lyrics as recorded for the Short Sharp Shanties project [John Short's versions collected by Cecil Sharp 1914]:

ROLLER BOWLER

INTRO:
Hooray you rowler bowler
To my hi rig a jig and a ha ha
Good Morning Ladies all

VERSE & CHORUS:
O the first timne that I saw her
    Hooray, you rowler bowler
O the first time that I saw her
Twas down in playhouse square
    To my Hi rig a jig and a ha ha
    Good morning Ladies all

As I walked out one morning
Down by the riverside

She winked and tipped her flipper
I thought she was my girl

But when she found that I was skint
She left me standing there

O ladies short and ladies tall
O I have had them all


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Roller Bowler
From: GUEST,Navvy Chris (of Short Drag Roger)
Date: 29 May 14 - 02:59 PM

Well I stumbled upon this lovely shanty from a version on the soundtrack of the popular computer game 'Assassin's Creed 4' on Youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx5uegVP-78

A rich seam of shanties well known and not so much. To be commended for bringing true shanty joy to the numb-thumbed masses of gamers out there!

Rest assured we'll bring a few of them to the Falmouth International Shanty Festival in a couple of weeks. Hurrah!


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Subject: RE: req/ADD: Roller Bowler
From: Janie
Date: 29 May 14 - 11:11 PM

Whodathunkit?! Hurrah indeed!


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Subject: RE: req/ADD: Roller Bowler
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 May 14 - 11:26 AM

Nice to know this old shanty still resonates.

Charlie Ipcar


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Subject: RE: req/ADD: Roller Bowler
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:31 PM

The game creators had mainly scoured YouTube for chanties, which explains why you get a mix of the most common ones in popular (even fanciful) renditions along with lesser-known items that just one or two people happen to have posted to YT. In this case, Barry Finn's rendition is the likely source of "Roller Bowler."

That's all great, but what irks me is that while looking for chanties the creators evidently had in mind the idea that the chanties selected must be in line with an English culture of the age of piracy. And since chanties don't date from that time period (nor do most, I would argue, originate with that *culture* per se), they come up with a skewed picture—and alter the rest to fit a pre-conceived idea.

Look at "Roller Bowler". See my post earlier in the thread where a relative of the song comes in an 1840s collection of "the greatest Negro songs." Or see the discussions about "dou-dou," related to an Afro-Caribbean slang. etc. And Barry's rendition, indeed, pays homage to African-American songs and their influence in the development of an "American" singing style.

Assassin's Creed replaces the "dou dou". After that, there is nothing that jumps out in the lyrics as suggesting the song is not plausibly English and so, with the proper singing style, it can be imaged as a "pirate" song of the 17th century. It's a subtle thing, and if you take only this one example it will seem i am making a mountain of a molehill. But if you look at all the songs used in Assassin's Creed you'll find that all traces of African-American stuff have been rejected or wiped away. The same was done for clear references to 19th century America.

Now, if the majority of chanties are African-American in their style or rife with language that shows the origin and/or influence of Black song in American popular culture…and include other earmarks of culture after ca.1840s in America… then what's all this British-accented pirate-voice stuff all about?

The point I'm making is not that I would expect the game's creators to do copious research and discover obscure literature on "Roller Bowler" and every other item. It's that these creators, when scouring YouTube and finding these chanties, would have encountered, time and again, aspects that point to American and particularly Black American culture of the 19th century. There's no escaping it. It's known, for instance, that they used some of my own videos as resources, and I harp on this stuff in them just like I'm harping on it now, haha! So it stands to reason that they deliberately ignored it. They whitewashed the chanty repertoire.

That's what bugs me.


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Subject: RE: req/ADD: Roller Bowler
From: Lighter
Date: 30 May 14 - 05:14 PM

> what's all this British-accented pirate-voice stuff all about?

Gibb, it would bug me too, if I still gave a damn. But those days are over. Like so many other opportunists, talented and otherwise, the game creators are capitalizing on the time-tested "Pirates of the Caribbean," possibly because, in their own minds, British pirates of the amusing Robert Newton/ Johnny Depp variety were rife in the nineteenth century. They made ocean travel fun! ("Which colorful sea-dog do you suppose we'll meet?!")

Long ago I gave up on the idea that anybody can correct the krazy historical notions of pop culture. The best you can hope for is that the few people with more than a passing interest will eventually read the right books and articles.

For the rest, it's all rock 'n' roll to them.

Actually I was pleased that, for performances by uncredited, British-accented, pretend pyrates (the preferred RenFaire spelling, thought to impart as much Xtra authenticity as the ees in "Ye Olde Gifte Shoppe" and "RenFaire"), the couple of renditions I heard sounded relatively natural. (Despite the fake "Timmes!" invented, so far as I can know, by the Clancy Bros. ca1961.)

Just imagine how much worse the pyrate shantying would be in art-song style - the way computer games in the 1920s would have done 'em.

The ripples of your YouTube singing keep spreading. Too bad you can't get any royalty doubloons from the computer guys.


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Subject: RE: req/ADD: Roller Bowler
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 14 - 05:56 PM

Well, I'll always associate "Roller Bowler" with my friends Barry Finn and Richard Adrianowicz, not some computer game. Barry and Richard took ownership of the song long ago.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: req/ADD: Roller Bowler
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 31 May 14 - 01:04 AM

I agree, Lighter. The thrust of my comment though (perhaps buried in my rambling/ranting) is not disappointment with the "pyrate" interpretation in itself (which, as you say, is par for the course) but rather more disappointment that they were exposed to these other ideas—and (seemingly) chose to ignore them.

The hypothetical "general public" may have this vision of the genre, but they, practically speaking, have "no choice"; there is an abundance of media and representations that form their vision and they have no occasion to get that vision challenged. So be it. We geeks, needs, revivalists, scholars, etc. have our various views and they don't affect much. So be it.

On the other hand, it is said - by the creators and by fans - that the Assassin's Creed series' creators are known for their "meticulous" research on the eras/setting portrayed in their games. In promotional literature and such they pride themselves on this aspect that distinguishes their productions.

And so they *did*, unlike Joe General Public, embark on some research to do this. So in the process of looking for circa 50+ chanties that they would select to include in the game, they went through much material. My videos for sure. Other video renditions like Barry Finn's. Hugill's book, I think. Probably even Mudcat, but that's just a guess. So it seems they were not innocently uniformed, rather they ignored stuff.

It's just a huge missed opportunity. That is, this game (which came out last November IIRC) is (or will be, I believe, in hindsight viewed as) a milestone in the development of the public's knowledge about the chanty genre. It create a significant spike in interest among the current generation of young people. And it's a generation that's receptive to alternate visions of the genre - who in fact (in my experience) are not firmly entrenched in prior generation's notions. This is a generation that doesn't even know "Blow the Man Down." They are quite open.

They are also a generation that, like it or not, Joe, is getting their info on this genre from a few main sources, which in most cases do not include folkies or the canonical book collections. Those sources are this game, followed by looking up the songs on YouTube, followed by Wikipedia. The game creators dropped the ball…

Incidentally, I wouldn't want any royalties for any of my deliberately-sketchy YouTube activities. However, I do know that the head game creator used my videos (and others) as a resource. Rather than royalties, I'd rather he'd mailed me and told me directly (instead of my discovering it, after sleuthing it out, in an on-line conversation between 3rd parties) that he did. In which case, he might have even asked me (and others) for advice on the thing.


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Subject: RE: req/ADD: Roller Bowler
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 14 - 09:27 AM

Gibb, I'm guessing the research budget was comparatively small. Any expert advice presumably went to more obvious and interesting questions, like what a real pirate ship looked like, and whether pirates carried automatic weapons.

The simplest explanation for the singing style is probably that the music director was so used to English- or Irish-accented shanties that it never occurred to him or her to vary it. Or if it did, the task might have been too daunting for the time and talent available and the wages offered. (If you're supplied with a bunch of white shanty singers, for example, it could be a PR disaster to urge them to sing more like what you or they think 19th C. Africans should have sounded like. And there may have been no time or money to hire additional black "shantymen.")

It sucks when people don't want to draw on one's knowledge or, worse, acknowledge one's efforts. But video-game people on deadlines aren't likely to cover all bases. And in the business world, unfortunately, acknowledgements are usually given only if legally required.

If pop culture dropped the ball (again), maybe it can retrieve it later.


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