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BS: Marching Orangemen
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Subject: Marching Orangemen From: Fortunato Date: 12 Jul 00 - 10:29 AM In view of the common hope (I hope) for peace in Northen Ireland, why do Orangemen wish to march commemorating a victory through the villages of those defeated? Imagine a parade of Yankees marching through Atlanta to celebrate it's burning. If one wants to heal a wound, then one should not rub salt into it it seems to me. I would like to understand if anyone can help me. Regards and hope for peace, Fortunato
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Bagpuss Date: 12 Jul 00 - 10:35 AM I think most of us wish we could understand too - then we might be able to help. Mainly I think its about them not wanting to compromise and give up too much, because then they think they will lose, and NI will go back to Ireland. So they feel they have to hold onto every scrap of their traditions and "rights", no matter how trivial and what the effects. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Callie Date: 12 Jul 00 - 10:43 AM Fortunato - there was a recent long thread about this. It didn't convince me that the march was for cultural reasons: rather for nasty reasons. Callie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Fortunato Date: 12 Jul 00 - 10:45 AM Thanks Callie, I didn't know, I'l look for it. Fortunato |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: InOBU Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:11 AM Fortunato You hit the nail squaire on the head. See the Conrad Blainy NO SURENDER thread Chears, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: L R Mole Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:13 AM Enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: InOBU Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:35 AM Dear Mole enough what? All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:40 AM Click Here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:49 AM I, on the other hand, wonder about the descendants of those defeated so many, many years ago. If the Mexicans want to march on the Alamo every year, why should the Texans OF TODAY, care? So they want to celebrate their victory, why not let them? The battle was lost so long ago I don't see why anybody cares any more. And this from someone who has a Serbian mom, talk about not forgiving old, old, old acts of agression or conversion or whatever it is people aren't forgiving about... But I also have been singing The Ould Orange Flute rather nonstop since awakening... just to make this a musical thread...Why can't the catlicks, as it's pronounced down here, just say Yes, you won the battle then, bully for you, but now is now, and go on about their business? I like parades, why can't this one be fun? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Mbo Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:57 AM Yeah, it's not like Boyne was some big crushing defeat! Billy lost at Limerick AFTER Boyne...but I don't see anyone celebrating THAT. Except me, cuz I'm a Wild Geese junkie, and it's part of my Wild Geese album project. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Fortunato Date: 12 Jul 00 - 12:00 PM Hello, Mbo, What does 'Wild Geese'mean? I assume it's not a collection of goosings. factiously yours, fortunato |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 12:10 PM One difference from the US parallels is thta the Mexicans on bothe sides of te borders seem to have given up trying to reverse the partition of their country, and there don't seem to all that many anti-unionists in the States. Whereas in Ireland issues like that aren't just history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 12:11 PM By "anti-unionists" I meant of course people who would like to see an end to the American Union. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 12 Jul 00 - 12:49 PM McGrath, I know that the conflicts of today in NI are very much of today - but this particular battle was more than 300 years ago... why not let them parade about it? Why care? And the same to the marchers - so you won this battle, that was then, why care now? Why not march in YOUR neck of the woods if you know that going over somewhere else is going to bug people? Why Can't We All Just Get Along? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Kim C Date: 12 Jul 00 - 12:55 PM Umm, can't we all just get along? What was it somebody said a few weeks ago about the popular fish symbols on people's cars? Something about, why does your fish have to eat my fish? Why can't we both just have a fish? It sounds like maybe the Orangemen (and I guess I might be one since I found out a good deal of my ancestors were Dutch) are just trying to yank somebody's chain. Perhaps the best reaction in this case is none at all. I wondered, though, why they just couldn't march somewhere else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 12 Jul 00 - 12:58 PM I didn't catch the fish comment, was in here? Great comment! Why CAN'T we just all have fish? Let them have fish! The new cry for tolerance! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 01:44 PM It's not realy about a battle 300 years ago. It's about the present and the future. The Battle of the Boyne is a symbol.
The reality of the Battle of the Boyne, as has been pointed out is different from the myth. The Pope authorised a Te Deum in Rome in thanksgiving for the victory of William. There were more Catholic troops in Williams's army than there were Protestants. And of course the Orange Order wasn't set up until more than a hundred years later, and Protestants were among the leading Irish Republicans in 1798.
But the 12th isn't really anything to do with history as it happened. It's like in any family quarrel, all kinds of half forgotten events from the past get pulled out and brandished, but that's not what it's about. In a different atmosphere the same episodes would very likely be recalled as a way of binding people together - "well, if we got over that, we can get over anything".
And that's how it'll be with the Battle of the Boyne and a lot of more recent happenings, when peace has really come. "When", not "if".
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 12 Jul 00 - 02:56 PM more confused than ever but generally go along with Kim C Brendys thread gave me a migraine..information overload the march seems pretty childish Bowler Hats??? It seems that the confrontation fans the flames perhaps the residents could put the fire out by welcoming the parade and letting go the anger then we might have a generation of children that don't learn to hate each other they ain't born that way Roger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:00 PM What Fish.....Where could someone point the thread out Roger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:13 PM Anyone who doesn't get a headache thinking about Northern Ireland can't have really been thinking about it.
It's no good giving advice from outside, this is something that's got to be sorted out by the people living there. Most Protestants in Northern Ireland probably do not support the demand by the Orange Order to force to go where they are not wanted. Maybe that is where the key to breaking this deadlock could be found, with a non-sectarian march for peace down the Garvaghy Road.
But that would probably be seen as provocative by the heroes of Drumcree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: InOBU Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:21 PM Roger: An English journalsit once told me that the problem with me was not that I was ignorant about the north of Ireland, but that I knew too much. If your government, who by the way, endorces that ignorence is so successful in making you afraid to take a little time to find out the facts, don't you find yourself a bit currious? Here in the states, our government did not want us to read the Pentagon Papers, which exposed the real politic behind the Viet Nam war and the illeagal bombings of Cambodia and Laos. It was a lot to read, but one of the respocibilities of democracy, is finding out the facts behind your vote. Sorry if Brenny gave us a bit too much home work, but I think more is better when it comes to educaiton. Print it out, make a nice cup of tea, pop and asprin and endulge your currisoity. all the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:22 PM EVERYTHING can be seen as provocative. The trick is to half-close your eyes without looking superior... Sorry, just getting through a very long day. Thanks for the details, McGrath of Harlow. Your comment about headaches reminds me of the old saying If you remember the '60's, you weren't really there... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:33 PM Good idea McGrath And yes InOBU a print out is a good idea. It is the monitor not the text that is giving me the headache. Roger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GUEST,I guess Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:01 PM Thanks for answering my question from the ugly Orange thread Inobu. I've never had a problem with the way YOU make your points and there's hardly anyone here who is more passionate about these kinds of issues. In almost a year I've only seen you act sarcastic or patronizing once. So that's a pretty good average. Almost everything this Conrad says from his rabidly pro smoking tirades to his 'musicians who play for money suck' to his obvious glee at those who want to march past the houses of people who lost a battle hundreds of years ago, is geared to stirring up trouble. I have a lot of respect for folks like you, McGrath, and actually most people here. g |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: pastorpest Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:23 PM I know nothing of the html stuff. I do know these three web sites provide excellent information for understanding Northern Ireland. www3.pitt.edu/~novosel/ireland.htm wwwvms.utexas.edu/~jdana/irehist.html#top cbc.ca/news/indepth/nireland/index.html The CBC site will get you started. The other two sites from academics will keep you going for awhile. Many courageous people, mostly in Northern Ireland, are trying to make the current peace process work: they need our support!
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:45 PM html?? me neither. The addresses copy and paste OK Thanks for that they are bookmarked to view later Roger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Kim C Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:50 PM The explanation of the fish: I think it was somewhere in the Mudcat but honestly I don't remember. Anyway the conversation turned to the Icthus, the little Christian fishy symbol that a lot of folks like to put on their cars, and all its variations. There's a Darwinian fish with legs on it, and apparently another one of a fish eating a fish. (I haven't seen that one.) But the writer wanted to know why we couldn't each just have our own dang fish, instead of having to conquer everyone else's fish. (Does anyone else remember that besides me?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:52 PM Here's the first of those links
a href="cbc.ca/news/indepth/nireland/index.html ">And here is the third.
And here is a fourth - the Irish Times special report, The Path to Peace, which is regularly updated
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 12 Jul 00 - 05:05 PM fishy indeed - those links won't work for me except the irish times which is fine do the links only work on Fridays?? Roger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Dee45 Date: 12 Jul 00 - 05:19 PM (minor thread creep but relevant) I am reminded by reading these threads, about a memory from early childhood. I was around 6 or 7 at the time and was calling on a friend for our walk together to school. As we're walking and chit-chatting, he matter-of-factly says to me "Do you like Catholics?" (He being Protestant and me being neither) and my response was "I have nothing against them one way or another. Why do you ask?" And his response was "We're supposed to hate them, but I don't know why." My children do not see "color" or religious persuasion bashing. If prejudice isn't taught, it can't be passed on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 05:25 PM The html links work all right, but something went funny with my blue clickety version. Here goes again.
And for good measure, here's the Irish Times one as well
And now let's see if they all work.
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 05:28 PM The second one - third time lucky |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Bill D Date: 12 Jul 00 - 06:06 PM all it needs is another verse or two |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GUEST,oggie Date: 12 Jul 00 - 06:09 PM An Irish friend of mine once said ' The problem with the English is that their memories are too short, the problem with us Irish is that or memories are too long!' oggie (steve) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 06:38 PM What a pity he wasn't William of Banana... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Lanfranc Date: 12 Jul 00 - 06:41 PM "Peace will come, let it begin with me" (Paxton) History, religion, gangsterism and paranoia seem to be present in equal parts in the recent events in NI. I can't help but wonder what would happen if they were denied the "oxygen of publicity". Some would scream "censorship", but if the bigots were denied their 15 minutes of notoriety, who would be the poorer? Discuss, if you will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Irish Rover Date: 12 Jul 00 - 06:47 PM I swore I would not get sucked in to this. because if you don't live there every day you can't get it! these lovely people(orangemen and RUC) burned my house to the ground in1957 because my father(a prody) was married to an Irish Catholic. they told him to get out of the area he said no. so all of your nice thoughts don't mean much to a little kid watching his mother get pushed around and grouped by these lovely people. Hate you bet and no matter how hard I try to forgive I can not. My father, God rest him, served in the 42nd in wwII. made no difference to them. you have to feel it from the bottom to understand. ah never mind......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: mg Date: 13 Jul 00 - 01:18 AM I imagine it is probably a lot like the Confederate flag issue we have here, and singing Dixie...some people are convinced that everyone only would fly the flag or sing the song to harrass others..and for some people that probably is their motivation. For many people, it would be an entirely innocent experience, with no overtones at all. Probably a lot of others would be somewhere in between. Sometimes things are as they seem...it might be really important to them to carry on the traditions of their culture..march where their grandparents marched etc...I don't know the motivation of everyone there...probably falls along the same lines of the Confederate flag issue.. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: paddymac Date: 13 Jul 00 - 02:21 AM Religion and history are largely meaningless catch phrases in the NI conflict. It's really all about domination in an apartheid state. I suspect the many sentient unionists in the north are struggling today with the realization that they too are being held hostage by the Orange thugs. It's an ugly little drama played out on a world stage that is no longer completely dominated by the BBC's less than objective coverage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GUEST,skarpi at work Date: 13 Jul 00 - 08:53 AM Hallo all, well I have been writing The path to peace and It seems to me that there´s not gonna be any peace in N-Ireland for the years to come. I started singing a few weeks ago a song called " Sing Irishman Sing " I was hoping that the folks in N-Ireland would sing this song and be happy , I was wrong. Could it be possible that if the British army left the N-Ireland for good,would the IRA then return their guns? Can´t the orange walk around their own neighbourhood? Why selebr, some awent that happent so many ages ago which cost so many lives?. well those are my thoughts at the moment, but I hope there will be peace in N-Ireland. All the best skarpi Iceland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Mbo Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:01 AM Star Trek sets the final peace to come in 2015... --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GreatBrownShark Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:18 AM The reason why people object to parades varies from town to town. There are thousands of orange marches every summer; five of them cause trouble and two were stopped. Most marches go through all protestant areas. Some go through Catholic areas where relations are good. Mostly rural places where people know each other. Some go through Catholic areas where relations aren't that good but because the march itself is always reasonable and respectable no one objects. The tiny minority are in areas where relations are bad and the Orangemen and their followers act like bastards. The Drumcree parade is through a ghetto where unemployment is vast,y higher than the surrounding area and where people are scared to go into the town centre. Catholics have one day a year to get back at protestants and they take it. The local Orangemen have been allowed down in the past on the basis that they not play sectarian songs and shout offensive slogans. That promise was as empty as the Ulster Covenant. The Lower Ormeau is an "interface area" where community relations between poor protestants and catholics are teerible. Again the marchers represent the worst of orangeism. It would be easy to get down the Garvaghy road-- stop telling people that you'll kill them if you don't. GBS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: InOBU Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:10 AM My dear friend Skarpi: Lovely sentiment, and one clarification As to IRA armed struggle and the British troops. They did not come to Ireland to end IRA violence. In fact, they were in responce to a miscalculation on the part of the nationalist/civil rights community who were the target of loyalist violence. The had patterned their non-violent movement for civil rights on the actions of the Southern Christian Leadership and SNIC (Conrad Blainy old boy) in the US. They thought that crown troops would come to protect them, like the federal troops in the south in the US. English government policies had other things in mind, and members of the English Troops Out movement - of British veterines of the war in Ireland describe being told by thier officers that their role was not to protect republicanism but to teach them a lesson, which they did on Bloody Sunday, killing unarmed civilians and leading to the eventual rearming of the Irish Republican Army. So the troops leaving will have no effect, though loyalsit terrorism might indeed. All the best, and enjoy the short summer in Iceland, and keep singing about peace, we all agree on that (other than Mr. Ian "Never Never Never"Paisley and his crowd) Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Fortunato Date: 13 Jul 00 - 11:45 AM Irish Rover if you're still reading this thread, I'm sorry if my starting this thread at allseems insensitive. I am an American of mixed celtic descent. I have four friends, all from Dublin, who have immigrated here. I asked the question to learn from mudcatters. The information I receive through the media here is limited and perhaps suspect; certainly it is inadequate. Mudcatters often educate me. They have done so in this instance. Still, you say one cannot understand unless one live there. I have never been in Northern Island. But I do live in the same world as you. Here in Washington DC violent hatred and prejudice and injustice are currently played out in more covert ways than in Northern Ireland perhaps, but wherever there are humans these three exist. I can't know your feelings, but I understood enough from your message to learn from it. I wish you peace. Fortunato
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: InOBU Date: 13 Jul 00 - 12:55 PM Fortunato: The violent machinations of Washington DC are indeed played out in the North of Ireland. I posted a long post about the conection of the US intrest and Nato interst in maintaining a military presence in Ireland until the end of the cold war, the same year that England began secret negotiaitons with the IRA. I think it may have been in the Joe Doherty thread, I don't recall the name of the thread, but rather than tell the whole story again, perhapes someone may remember what the name of the thread was. In short, Ireland is non-alingned, which is why the US back England in the war, more than carrying on propaganda, sending Chalrie Beckworth to train Delta Force illegaly in the North of Ireland. It was a US dirty little war as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Brendy Date: 13 Jul 00 - 01:12 PM And then some! B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jul 00 - 01:41 PM Irish Rover, may I echo what Fortunato said? I understand the need for eyewitnessing and expriencing, but if lack of first-hand experience had stopped empathisers in the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's over here, we wouldn't have gotten very far. What you have experienced obviously caused tons of pain and there is nothing we can say or do to take that away, except to say we are sorry and what can we all do, together, to prevent such madness from happening again? Maybe the following copyrighted article by one of my favourite authors, James Dillet Freeman, will offer some answers for us all: He is talking about changing the world for the better: It (the idea) is a very simple one: Change myself-change yourself. Until we human beings change, there is no way, no matter what hap- ens outside us, that a change in world conditions can be maintained. I am for social reforms, for laws and treaties and welfare agencies and charity. But these only case the symptoms; they don't change the cause. For the cause is me--yes, me and you! It is our attitudes toward ourselves and toward others that determine the condition of the world, for we are the world; and, until we change, there is no way that a true change can take place. Oh, if you are powerful enough, you may make me do what you want me to do, force me to submit to your legal or moral edicts. But only at great cost. Sooner or later I will be doing what my impulses and habits of thought prompt me to do. So we had all better be about changing ourselves, changing our thoughts, changing our feelings about ourselves and about one another, changing our characters. Only when I am more just will there be more justice; only when I am more loving will there be more love in the world. Only when I am more trusting can we have more trust in one another. Only when I am more honest will there be more straight dealing between us. Only when I am less self-centered will there be more thoughtfulness. Only when I am more in control of my thinking will there be less rash and harmful behavior in the world. The way to a better world is not more enactments and promulgations, but more inward changes. When we have more love within ourselves, we will need fewer welfare agencies. When we have more trust in one another, we will need fewer laws. When we treat each other with fairness and justice, we will have fewer wars. There is only one way to a better world. That is for you and me to start to bring it into being. How? By starting to change the one thing in the world we have power to change-us!
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Irish Rover Date: 13 Jul 00 - 02:32 PM Thanks to all for your nice sentiment. As I said I tried to stay out of this but couldn't. I don't begin to know how to end the troubles. It is so corrupt there every body selling out to the highest bidder, the US in bed with the brits, makes me sick. A follow of African/American decent was regailing me with stories of slavery and mistreatment. I said try being Irish in your own country. He didn't find me amusing. my point being the world is in trouble. It is the same trouble everywhere. I was crying in my beer yesterday and I appologize. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Fortunato Date: 13 Jul 00 - 02:40 PM No apology necessary. cheers, Fortunato |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: death by whisky Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:04 PM every pub i've played in this week has had a fair number of northern irish.i seem to remember that we always tokk our holiday at thiis time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Big Mick Date: 14 Jul 00 - 12:59 AM Irish Rover, there is no need to apologize. It must be very hard for someone who has had to live with these types of memories to sit by and listen to a bunch of folks who live far away from it all discuss it as if they understood. I can tell you from my experiences during the Vietnam conflict that it is very frustrating to have people speak, whether they are empathetic or accusatory, as if they understand how the experience affected me. That is not to say that they can't discuss the ethics of the conflict, take a position on who was right/wrong, etc. In fact, that is one thing that, as an Irish American, I defend strongly. I hate it when my Irish cousins act like Yanks have no business discussing the troubles. Of course we do, we are here instead of there because of them. But we have no right to suppose that we understand the anguish that the people that live it day to day face. Your reaction was justified and once again helped give me insight into the problems in the land of my Grandparents. Thanks for sharing. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: little john cameron Date: 14 Jul 00 - 11:19 AM Only six arrests following Orange Walks in county ONLY six people were arrested in connection with Orange Walks in Lanarkshire on Saturday, despite thousands taking part in parades across the county and thousands more watching.
Just one arrest is known to have been made during the course of the 28 walks which took place in South Lanarkshire.
This might be off interest. LJC
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Big Mick Date: 14 Jul 00 - 11:24 AM Well, Little John, I am pleased with that figure for the 12th of July. Now, factor in the 7 days leading up to it and tell me what you get. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: little john cameron Date: 14 Jul 00 - 12:22 PM Mick, that is an article in the local paper in Scotland.I have been following it there and it seems to have been pretty non violent.The problem seems to be mostly confined to N.I. We only have the 12th.No "marches" only "walks".Later on there is the Hibernians "walk" It is much the same i.e. a few nutters on both sides but nothing on the scale of N.I. I don't want to get involved in this ,i just thought i would let the you guys see that it is not the same everywhere,altho' i think in the interest of peace and quiet i think they should stop all the marches and parades.Like someone said earlier "you have to be their and live it,to have a clue about the the deepseated suspicions on both sides. It is heartbreaking . LJC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: InOBU Date: 14 Jul 00 - 06:46 PM Dear Brother Cameron: That's how it should be, as I pointed out in Conrad's tread, a major Catholic church in Belfast was built by the Protestant community. Here we are fighting it out at the bottom of the British ecconomy. There is a reason no doupt, some where around 10 Downing street. I think there is fear about hearing fifes and warpipes playing the same tunes come eleciton day. Slan agus beanaught Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: GUEST,Devadip Singh Date: 14 Jul 00 - 06:55 PM I nominate Mr. Bladey for the "Asshole of the Month" award and I am not even Irish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: Big Mick Date: 14 Jul 00 - 11:42 PM Thanks for pointing out the context of the comments, Little John. I apologize for any slight that may have been taken. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Marching Orangemen From: InOBU Date: 15 Jul 00 - 08:20 AM Brother Devadip Singh: After Jillianwalla (excuse the spelling) Shiks ARE Irish and Irish ARE Shiks, and people like Conrad are the ones on their knees! Jai Guru Nanik Larry |