BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?

Subject: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Davey
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 10:54 AM

In the 'Pics of Rick Fielding' thread, Guest I guess asked about a perceived difference that Canadian performers appear to have (in their music? performing style?) I'd like to share some thoughts and get some feedback..

I think it's partly due to our cultural differences. Canadians tend to be modest, somewhat self-effacing, and not prone to tooting our own horns. Americans are more gregarious, very steeped in a sort of 'rah-rah' nationalism that's fostered by the media and through the school system. Americans,therefore, sometimes come across as more agressive and can sometimes appear pushy.

These are generalizations, I know, but they arise out of discussions I've had with various people. I attend a yearly music camp known as The Woods. A few years ago Bennet and Lorraine Lee Hammond were on staff. Towards the end of the camp, Bennett mentioned that we have a great and a caring society here. I asked him how he could tell that by spending a week with us, and he replied that a community of 70 people is like a microcosm of the whole society, reflecting that society's attitudes.

This is, of course, highly subjective and only one opinion.

Another difference is in subject matter, as we focus on our own history and create a body of music around that theme, rather than sing American traditional songs, not that there is anything wrong with the American traditional songs, since I, and many other Canadians sing and play them regularly. On the other hand, I don't know of any American performers who are playing and singing traditional Canadian music. There's my $.02, so let the discussion begin, and be nice..'BG'

Davey... (:>)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,Steven Sellors
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:02 AM

I find that many Canadian musicians are not afraid to be "down".

Some "big time" show biz examples would be Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen and Neil Young.

Steven "I like to use quotes" Sellors

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Alice
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:08 AM

The local fiddle players here play alot of Canadian tunes, so the American musician repertoire is one more of regional and personal choice, I think, (but then, I'm in Montana, close to Canada).

Alice (the parenthetical)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:09 AM

Deffernce, eh?
What can you say, eh?
All the best (eh?)
Larry.... .... .... .... eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:10 AM

Steven,

Reminds of Neil introducing a song either at Woodstock or on Four Way Street.

"Here's a song that's guaranteed to bring you down, it's called 'Don't Let It Bring You Down"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:16 AM

Davey, I'm as nationalistic a Canadian as they come, but we're not as self-effacing as we used to be. Part of the proof is that we are always going around explaining to the Yanks how modest we are even though the UN says we have the best country in the world to live in--year after year. That's getting embarrassing! When we talk about it that much we're not being it any more. (OK, maybe I'm being a typical Canuck here.)

Also we have this simplistic notion of Americans as you outlined above. The US has lots of diversity in its population and their opinions and its kind of silly that we go around stereotyping them--also a media-propagated notion. (For Example, I heard a CBC interviewer describe Molly Ivins as "the last liberal in Texas", which is just plumb ignorant. Texas has lots of ropers, ranchers, roughnecks and rednecks but also lots of smart independent -minded thinkers, immigrants, a big New Age scene, hippies, the Austin music scene and the Kerrville Folk Festival which is my experience there.)

Its kind of fun to go down there and sing trad (and contemporary) Canadian material, which they don't know--your point is quite correct on that score.

Getting down to the thread title question, Canadian music has been vaguely but truthfully characterized as having "a sense of space." Fewer big bands, more lone folkies or duos, driving long ways from gig to gig, a tendency towards economic migration, it shows in songs like Four Strong Winds, Make and Break Harbour, Summer Wages (OK I'm an Ian Tyson partisan), and I don't know, Jane Siberry or Kim Stockwood (the ironic outside observer thing).

Y'know what I mean eh.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:22 AM

That Larry is some Joker, eh?
Aw Damn, Alison! You put the moose pie right on top of my Ian and Sylvia records! eh?

Oh Canada!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:34 AM

Excuse the jokes, (including the one from Guest on my wife's computor!). I agree with the good and bad generalising about Canadian music. Infact, I play a lot of Canadadian music, (in responce to the origional post) I play Quebecoius tunes, a lot of Scotish stuff from Nova Scotia as well as the English song tradition from Nova Scotia, and even a few Innu songs I picked up fighting against the human rights abuses in Canada leveled at American Natives. (Yup, generally a kind and caring society, but a few rough edges - some that are quite rough) We have to remember that Canada, often looking south at the violent barbarians on their boarder, has a few mea culpas to atone for the actions of their army in Africa, torturing civilians, but I still try and get my wife to move there... it still has a lot more rational government than the US. Even in places like Quebec, where you expect a domence of Norman and Breton music, there is a thriving south American music tradition, a lot of Chileans moved there after the US screwed up their nation. So, Willie O excuse the bit of fun, you guys have some great music up there, Let's sing a round of Barreett's Priveteers and have a LaBats.
PS I really do like moose pie.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:35 AM

Re: Alice's post. I have a notion that Western music is different from other types in distribution and boundaries. Notably, that the border between Alberta and the states to the south is pretty culturally porous, and always has been. Ian Tyson is once again my example--even though he's a Canadian icon, he's even more a western artist in a biogeographical way that makes the national border irrelevant.

Doesn't surprise me that fiddle tunes would be similarly shared. There's a lot of similarity between New England and Ontario fiddle & accompaniment styles too.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:41 AM

I'd say that 75% of my influences have been rural American musicians, yet when I've played in the U.S. or Britain, I'm told my style is distinctly "Canadian. So if the remaining 25% of influences come from British and Canadian sources, they must colour what I do to an extent that I just don't see it.

On a technical level, when I flatpick, I never strum, but always use moving bass lines and minimal brush (and that's American). With fingers I almost exclusively use Thumb, index middle, with a "swing" feel, and that's American. So maybe it's the vocal phrasing. Beats me, but it's fun to speculate. I'll enjoy hearing others' responses.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:42 AM

I've been thinking about this, and I think that the only Traditional Canadian music I know is in French. I don't think I know any "traditional" anglophone canadian songs... Does Alberta Bound count? I can think of Mon Pays ce n'est pas un pays, c'est l'hiver, and a lot of others from that side, why don't I know anything by the rest of you northerners? (I am American by passport but grew up in francophone countries. But I know a lot of other anglophone traditional songs, English, Aussie, American, etc. - just not Canadian. Quelle fâcheuse lacune, as Pierre Fresnay so beautifully put it...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 11:44 AM

The point I was trying to make was that it isn't because I was in French areas that I only know French Canadian songs... since I do know a lot of others in English. I will now close that parens.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,I guess
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:13 PM

Rick, I don't think it's the guitar styles. Maybe it's the accents. Just kidding!!!

g

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:32 PM

May as well ask, "What is Canadian?"

"I am..." is the best answer I've heard, but that doesn't really help much eh?

A cultural mosaic is hard to define at the best of times, but it's undeniable...

{~`

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 05:03 PM

I don't HAVE an accent eh?

Maybe it's in the water.

Anyway, for what it's worth, Guest, I guess, (and anyone else) here's my theory on regional styles.

A local musician with a LOT of originality becomes very popular...but only in his/her area. Several other local musicians who are influenced by the first, spread it around by touring. The style is picked up by a musician who becomes VERY popular nationally. Many younger musicians hear THIS performer and start to play/sing in that style. Some kind of national media picks up on it, and checks out where it came from. They find a bunch of people back in the original location who play that way. They announce that it's a REGIONAL style.

But in reality it was that first PERSON'S style.

A good example would be this scenario:

Mose Rager plays originally and well. He gets together with Ike Everly and they become very popular...but they are coal miners and don't tour. Merle Travis learns from them, and goes to Cinncinatti, then Los Angeles. Chet Atkins hears him and becomes even more famous. Thousands hear him and play the same style......but it all comes back to Mose.

I think that Gordon Lightfoot and Ian Tyson are the "backbone" of Canadian "style".

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:32 AM

Hey Mrr.

Depending upon how strict we would like to be in our definition of "traditional" musical styles, we could go so far as to say that Canada and the US don't have any. It was all brought here from overseas, incorporated with other styles that were brought here, and made into our own.

To answer the original question. I've lived in Ontario all my life, been entertained by MANY Canadian artists, and of course I've heard large amounts of American music. ...and the answer is "Dunno" ...but it is definitely different.

To back up Steven Sellors opinion, above, when I was in Grade 13 English, and we were asked to contrast American & Canadian literature. One girl put up her hand and said, "Canadian literature is depressing. You'd think that nothing good ever happens to any of us."

Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:46 AM

I think Rick's "Historical Scenario" makes a lot of sense when you're talking about ANY type of "sound." You can trace it back in Appalachian music as well and continue it through modern C/W. Read a book a few weeks ago on the history of women in Country Music and it was written around that very point that Rick makes.

And Willie....RE: the porousness of the western borders? Why of course man!!! That's why the Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed is located in Montana!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:05 AM

Paul S., that girl in grade 13 must have been reading Margaret Atwood's non-ficton book, *Survival* (1972?) Ms.A reckons that the struggle for survival is a major theme with us in Canada ... and if that's the psyche that forms the literature, I guess it does the same for music?

I wonder if another string to our cultural-psyche bow is the CBC? Whether or not it's currently doing a good job, it was set up to give us a national (federalist?) sense of identity.

This is where we get all misty-eyed about Sing-Along Jubilee (while trying to forget about the King of Kensington - that was cbc, wasn't it?)

sian (long-distance canadian)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:29 AM

Kawai Kwai, Friends
Let's not forget that Native Canadian music is traditional and Canadian. We tend to think of Euro-American folk music as defining folk music in North America. In fact, at Tower Records in New York, Native American music is in the International sections! Though, for example Kastin has definate Beatles influence, what makes them different is the Innu root of their music, and that is absoultly Canadian.
Niout
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:39 AM

That's funny Sian; I immediately thought of Margaret Atwood too. (Of course, there's Timothy Findley, Matt Cohen, Robertson Davies, Ondaatje I guess...but Atwood is the definitive modern Canadian novelist who could have used a lifetime supply of Prozac about thirty five years ago).

The CBC, definitely. For those of us who listen to it constantly, anyway. My theory is that the Canadian version of "everyone has fifteen minutes of fame" is "every Canadian gets on CBC national radio at least once." My moment was about fifteen years ago when I wrote a homage to Stan Rogers which Gzowski read on Morningside. (Made him cry, too. We were all pretty maudlin about that tragedy.) My daughter Emily's was yesterday when Bill Richardson read her essay about procrastination (a subject she is an expert on) and awarded her a merit badge in that department.

Its said only about 10% of Canadians are CBC listeners though, so maybe its just us elitist cultural snobs that make up the national identity. Add another few percent for community/campus radio listeners, and the other 85% is indistinguishable from American radio even with Cancon rules.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:42 AM

Venturing into this minefield, I would say that for me there are two Anglo styles, which are identifiable, and have something to do with the spacing created in the interplay between the instrument (usually guitar) and the voice. To take advantage of Rick's classification scheme -- One of these styles is what I would call the Gordon Lightfoot "Winter Night" style - come in out of the cold, it is death out there, but warm in here, look at those bleak streets out of the window, or the guy driving along the road with the rain on the windshield. The huddle together against the loneliness and get warm song. The other is the "big open spaces, big rolling boats" song, with the driving rhythm and the striving voice -- also Gordon, Canadian Railroad Trilogy. You can hear both the styles, flipping back and forth in Stan Rogers, Ian Tyson, and others. Occasionally the two styles appear in the same song -- Northwest Passage is a little like that -- the verses have the broody style, and the chorus the big open spaces. Canadian Railroad Trilogy ("the sun is declining..."). They just kill any Canadian who listens to them. I am sure there are other styles, but I throw this hypothesis into the ring for the hell of it. Just thought of another: Joni Mitchell's River -- both styles in one song -- the brooding against the cold, and then the release along an icy open river. Classic Canadian rhythm.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 11:21 AM

give us some examples of traditional Canadian music.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 11:24 AM

give us some examples of traditional Canadian music.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 12:40 PM

All Right Kendall. All right Kendall.

Many of the songs Marius Barbeau collected. Quebec

Goodly number in Edithe Fowke"s various collections. Ontario

Many in Helen Creighton's books. Maritimes

Ken Peacock's works. Newfoundland

Barbara Cass-Beggs' book. Prairies.

Sorry, sorry, I know this is a cop-out, but I gotta run downstairs and teach some folks.

My favourites though? "Isabeau s'y Promenee", "Marianne", "Wheel of Fortune", "Logger's Alphabet", "The Banks Of the Don", and "Scarborough Settler's Lament" ('cause we live in Scarborough)

INOBU. Other than scattered attempts by folks like Estelle Klein to include Native music in Festivals (during the 60s), Few listened or cared until a couple of Native Women rock singers hit the charts a couple of years ago. The festivals are happy to hire Native singers as long as they're female, cute, petite, and sound exactly like American country-folk singer-songwriters.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 12:50 PM

Ah Rick: Same all over, the Pocahauntis penominon strikes again! - Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 01:02 PM

Okay.....the thread is going well and now I can make stupid comment without fouling things up.

Sometimes thread titles just hit me and everytime I read the damn thing the same stupid thought comes to mind. In the case of this one, I keep thinking, "Canadian Style? Would that be back bacon or what?"

Sorry.....go on now.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 01:24 PM

Ya -I had my 15 minutes of fame on CBC's Richardson's Roundup not to long ago- a Canadian talking about banjo music (old time clawhammer Appalchian influenced)-go figure? In this day of mass media, North American musical influences have no boundries. You'll find Bob Dylan, and Stan Rogers clones everywhere. The Canadian fiddlers and learning American tunes, and visa versa. Music culture is meshing all over - which is both good and bad. It makes for a lot of interesting music, and it may also dilute music forms that were specific to one area in the past (like perhaps I've done a little with my bano recordings).

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 02:29 PM

C'mon Arnie. Imitators or influenced singers are common, but its probably fortunate that no one has ever cloned either of those two singular gentlemen.

Who the hell cares about "diluting" music--no living culture stays the same. If you like the way it usedta be played, then play it like that. Nothing the least bit new about different regional styles colliding and turning into something new. Jazz & rock n roll for example. Jazz is the interesting amalgam of a couple of black music forms--blues and African rhythms, coupled with the availability of lots of brass instruments that were leftover from Civil War marching bands, and some of the style those bands played.

But there ARE boundaries, at least here in the East. Many of us play music that is demonstrably Canadian, and like it like that. Whatever it might be, it is what we do. I can tell the difference from south of the St Lawrence. Even though as Rick has noted we borrow a lot stylistically from the Americans, the main thing we do differently is sing Canadian songs sung by Canadians.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 02:36 PM

I just saw another one of his singing(?) TV ads, and outside of the fact that he DOES look like Brother Rick, where does William Shatner fit into all of this?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Fortunato
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 02:47 PM

InOBU,when you say you like Moose Pie, is that the pie that Utah Phillips calls the meadow muffin?

Just curious, Fortunato

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: bob jr
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:28 PM

as far as niel young and joni mitchell and leonard cohen go the Canadian style seems to be to split to america as fast as possible

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:55 PM

I grew up with Canadian singer/songwriters. Wilf Carter, Hank Snow,then, Ian Tyson,Tom Russell and Stan Rogers. I still do their songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 11:24 PM

Bob jr, you probably don't understand that that's an offensive remark. Forgive ya this time but next time I'm strappin on the snowshoes, pounding some pemmican and back bacon into the pack, mending my tumpline and coming after you. With a sawed-off eight-gauge tiple.

Yeah, the folks you mentioned are all in California, though I'm not sure where Cohens spent most of his time.

Its been pointed out that despite the incessant whining from the corporate elite and other rightwingers about an alleged brain-drain from Canada to the States, actually there's a pretty stable tradition of left-wing American immigration to Canada, (the Vietnam war era is a major example of this trend, but neither the beginning nor end of it) and right-wing Canadians going to the States. So we have Jane Jacobs living here, and you have David Frum. Lucky you.

It's a free world, but if people choose to pursue their muse down in the bright lights of LA, that's at the expense of some of that Canadian style. It ain't re-motely what we're talking about here.

Because lots of us don't want to go do that stateside thing, because we have a strong sense of place. Some Americans, frankly, are too thick to recognize this, and think everybody naturally wants to live in the States.

Tain't so brother.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 12:38 AM

Peter makes an excellent (and unusual) point. 'Course we're talking apples and oranges aren't we? In answering "Guest, I Guess" (jeez Guest, can't you put a "name" to that?) I was at first thinking about Canadian SONGWRITERS in a "folk" style, but parallel to that we're also discussing "traditional" music as well. I'm no folklorist, so I'll stick with the "writers", but I think I would add Stan Rogers and Bruce Coburn to Lightfoot and Tyson as the folks who really defined Canadian style. Not because they were neccessarily better, but because they toured and recorded so extensively.

I have to say though that the most imitated Canadian artists have been Joni and Neil.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 07:40 AM

Fortunato:
No quite serriously, working with the Innu, an Algonquin community in the far north east of Quebec and Labrador, I often have occation to eat Carabou and Moose. Moose pie is one of the great ways to have moose. The Canadian government attempted to destroy Native hunter gatherer culture by placing the children in boarding schools. As a result, in Quebec, one of the only good outcomes, was a certain amount of french cooking being learned a generation ago, so there is a mix of traditional Innu and French cooking which Moose or Salmon pie is a wonderful part. Music wise, there is a mix of Scotish music and Quebecoius music into modern Innu folk, though older music styles are alive and well. People who wish to sample both Innu music and food should go to the Mani Utenam or Maliotenam (depending on your politics) Music festival 14k above Sept Illes, the first week of August to hear Native music from all over the hemisphere with a majority of Innu bands. You WILL have a great time, and have a chance to eat Moose pie. You can also say Kwai Kwai (hello) to really nice folks up there. (Please leave your drugs and alcohol at home - it is not a cool environment for either, you wont miss em, the music and food is enough)
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,John Leeder in Calgary
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 01:19 PM

I'm stealing time from my employer, so I don't have time to do this topic justice (even if I could!). So I'm going to ignore modern singer-songwriters, and instrumental music, neither of which overlap a great deal with traditional singers.

Canada is a young country, and its immigrants brought traditional music from their own backgrounds, and some of these started to influence each other, but nowhere near arriving at a homogeneous style, so in a sense we're talking about a "Canadian style" which may not exist, or may just be in the process of developing. (But this development may be swamped by "modern" influences anyway, and disappear before it gets a chance to develop fully.) There are lots of recorded examples of singers whose style is indistinguishable from people in the Old Country. There are also songs written in Canada whose style would fit into those genres. (I'm including the French cultures as well as British and other backgrounds -- it applies to any non-aboriginal cultures.)

I'm not a student of traditional music, I've just listened to a lot of it, so I can't quote chapter and verse on this. At the risk of overgeneralizing, I'd say that there is a tendency for Canadian singers to strengthen the rhythm and simplify the ornamentation on songs they've inherited from the Old Country. For example, singers who sing old Irish songs tend to regularize the tempo and reduce the number of grace notes.

(I have some credentials here; I'm secretary of the Canadian Society for Traditional Music, co-editor of the Canadian Folk Music Bulletin and former president of the Canadian Folk Music Society. Not that titles matter, but just to show that this is an area I've spent time on.)

Must rush off. I hope this discussion hasn't disappeared by the time I get back to work on Monday.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 01:26 PM

John Leeder,

Welcome aboard, hope that we hear more from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 01:31 PM

Hi John. Indeed you DO know what you're talking about. Put out some Damn good publications as well.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 02:32 PM

Couldn't resist taking another peek. Thanks for the kind words, Rick! Now if we could only get lots more people to subscribe...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM

Well John, you could post the subscription info. It ain't like you're selling NRA memberships!

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: bob jr
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 12:00 AM

wiilie o you dont have to do none of that to find me i am in canada ,one great national treasure we havent mentioned yet is the 4/5ths canadian band....the Band...that richard manuels voice gets me everytime rick danko too for that matter

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 06:06 AM

First I will say that I am a Dual Citizen of Canada and the U.S. and I love both countries dearly. If and when I am able I will spend half my time in each country. I agree with the thought that both Canada and the U.S. are too large to have a single homogeneous "style". But I would like to add a couple of personal observations. I think that it is sad that Ontarians seem to consider themselves to epitomize Canadian culture in general. By and large they tend to ignore Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Western Canada. (I won't get into the Quebec issue) For the most part they are more influenced by U.S. culture than anywhere else. This is only natural as 80% of the Canadian population is less than 100 miles from the U.S. Border and a large percent of their media is from the U.S. Not wanting to accept this, they hang onto a few little variations in their speech and attitudes so as not to seem totally "American". But the truth is that other regions of Canada and (and the U.S.) are more distinct than Ontario, such as NFLD, NS, Alberta.....Boston, NY, Texas, New Orleans, etc. I don't think that we should interpret subject matter, and minor variations in accent or word choice to exemplify a "style". Most Americans did not realize that Ian and Sylvia, Gordon Lightfoot and Neil Young were even Canadians when they first heard them. To me a "style" should be completely recognizable and distinctly different, not just our own little variations and interpretations of a main style.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: RichM
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 09:44 AM

I am an Ontarian--albeit a transplanted Quebec-Anglo- and I don't feel that Ontarions epitomize Canadian culture in general. I don't feel we ignore other parts of Canada. I cherish the qualities that each of these areas bring to the national character. Being from "away", I see differences between anglos from Quebec, and those in Ontario; and from those in any of the other regions of Canada. I cherish all of them.

Yes, we are influenced by American culture. We share a language, and some of our british heritage in common. However, I don't hang on to my speech/attitudes in deliberate opposition to American culture. Rather, my culture is me, and I am part of it. As to whether other parts of Canada are "more distinct" than Ontario is a non-issue; as Popeye said, "I yam what I yam". Am I different from Americans? Of course I am. Am I similar? Yes. But my culture does not need to be measurable on some comparative scale. Swedes, Norwegians and Danes share some culture and history in common, yet seem to have no problem being comfortable with themselves.

Respectfully, Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,Willie-O upstairs
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 11:47 PM

Actually I think that Ontario as a whole has the least cultural identification of any province in Canada. There are strong regional identities within Ontario though, such as Northern Ontario, the Ottawa Valley, Metro Toronto, or Mennonite country in southwestern Ont, but calling yourself an Ontarian doesn't evoke anything in particular to me until you ID which part of Ontario you're from. Now, being a Prince Edward Islander, Quebecois or Albertan is quite a different matter in terms of an immediate image.

Odd, but true.

W-O

p.s. hey bob jr., I'm not really comin after you...and I can't find you that easily anyway, it's a damn big country. I still think that was a stange thing to say, but my jets have cooled somewhat. Now pass me some of that moose pie.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: bob jr
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 01:36 AM

willie i am a veggie how about some poutine with meatless gravy ? thats good eatin!! i just get sick of canadian artists who run down south after the "big time",especially neil young (whose music i like a great deal by the way) his pro-reagan 80's stance made me ill ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 07:42 AM

Hey Willie O:
Did you say yer from Prince Edward Island? You know the guys and gals from Barachois? GREAT band. Nice folks,. I lost the inside of the CD case to their album. If you can post the words to Le petit (monk - can't spell the word in french) I would be really thankful. Save me a slice of Moose pie.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 07:47 AM

I just reread your sentence and realize you did not say you are from Prince Edward Island, Willie O, If anyone is and knows those guys... well anyway never mind (in the words of Gilda Radner)
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,Willie-O still upstairs
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 11:00 AM

No I'm not from PEI but as a matter of fact I do know a couple of Barachois folks. and thereby hangs a tale. About ten years ago we went on a family camping trip to PEI, with our old Dodge pickup camper. Kids were four and 1 1/2 then. Spent a week at Cavendish park, it rained most of the time. It was September, post-tourist season, not a lot of music going on but there was something at a fancy resort which turned out to be a "PEI kitchen party for tourists" kind of thing. The band was Grady Poe (now Barachois' manager), his wife Helene (Arsenault) Baillargeon and a couple others. They had an audience participation thing so I did a couple of my songs...afterwards we chatted and found out that Grady & I had both been introduced to playing trad music by the same person, Nathan Curry. On the strength of that, they lent us their cottage on Northumberland Strait for the weekend. Real nice folks. Years later the CBC did a whole hour broadcast of a real kitchen party at Grady & Helene's house in Acadie, with her father the great fiddler Eddy Arsenault. Greatest hour of radio I've ever heard. Haven't seen them since, but I'm real pleased Barachois is doing so well.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 06:48 PM

I define a Canadian sound as being anything with backup by Paul Mills (Curly Boy Stubbs). The vocal is a trained voice like Stan Rogers or Ed McCurdy or Alan Mills (any relation to Paul?) or Ian Tyson or that new guy who came along shortly after Stan's death---can't remember his name. Even John Allen Cameron----But not Vera Johnson ;-)

These were all great SOLO performers who I preferred without big ensembles or drums or electricity. But when they got a taste of big production, they went in that direction and, like American country music---really watered down their individuality in favor of a gneric sound that probably sells more records.

That's why there are so many stupid love songs about moon, June, croon and spoon (as Pete used to say although he doesen't now) instead of songs celebrating topics and smaller geographic areas. Songs about love and sex and allied industries are salable all over the world 'cause kids are made the same way everywhere.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why things trad have disappeared in favor of glitz and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Just my humble thread-creeping opinion.

And I love Paul Mills work!!!!!!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a 'Canadian' style?
From: GUEST,Willie-O Again
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 10:31 PM

Well I hate to disagree with you Art since you're mostly right, in this as in other matters...but without electricity you wouldn't hear much from any of those guys unless they're in your living room!

Aside from that, Ed McCurdy, Alan Mills and maybe JA Cameron were in the habit of playing solo--the others mentioned almost always had ensembles.

The other guy you're thinking of could only be James Keelaghan--who also has pretty much always had a 3-piece combo, but hasn't really expanded much beyond that. I think he's stuck pretty close to the original simple production style he's always had, which is devastatingly effective for his type of music. (Such as in "Cold Missouri Waters", you wouldn't want to mess that classic lyric up with a bunch of instrumentation. Which reminds me, he's another Albertan western cross-border songwriter e'nt he, at least part of the time.)

W-O