Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:44 PM

James Montgomery

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Mbo
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:20 PM

G Love!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: JamesJim
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:13 PM

Ed, my man, let's talk about why we like/love the blues. What do you say? I dig the sounds, the muscianship and the creativeness of those who sing and play it. It has sincere feeling that really turns me on. I loved and admired guys like Louie Armstrong, who knew what he liked and did his thing. Many black blues musicians were down on Louie, because they thought he should be more creative, that he should "progress" musically. He found that the black funeral music turned him on and he was surprised to find that he wasn't the only one. The white community fell in love with him and his music. He was a great entertainer who was one of the main reasons us "whities" fell for the blues.

Hey gang, how about naming at least one great white blues muscian in this thread (from this point on)? I know you can. Let's do it!

One last thought:"Talk about it more and they shall come!"

Jim

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:02 PM

First: Are they? Really?

If and only if so...

Second: That's one of the really good questions. I think it shouldn't be considered to be offensive but rather to be one of those things we seem to be unable to see until somebody shows them to us. And we should think about things like these, not 'simply turn our heads and look the other way'.

Anyway...

There are too many thoughts that come to my mind now. But you may call me a coward if I don't post another message at least within two days (this is to force myself into not keeping my mouth shut as I maybe do much too often).

Joerg

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: bbelle
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:51 PM

I think this is one of the oddest threads I've ever seen started and I don't much care for it and I should probably have just passed it by. But, since I didn't ... I have never for one minute thought about the colour of other mudcatters. Perhaps that is because I don't care what colour you are? Do you sit around and discuss "why are almost all rappers white?" Not me. As far as folk clubs being primarily caucasian ... you must be referring to nowadays. I haven't been in a folk club in 25 years. When I was performing in folk clubs, there was a healthy mix of all races. I never thought about why there was a mix, I just figured they were there for the same reason as I ... for the music, politics, and socializing.

Ed, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I still don't understand why you started this thread.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Dorrie
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:49 PM

Oh Ed you've dug a hole here. I think most folkies are white cos it is english/american music because that's were it orginates. I'm not being horrible i'm just saying cos that's what i thought when i read the thread subject.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: GUEST, back at ya guy!
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:37 PM

Yeah, McGrath. Let's ask our token black mudcatters to speak for the rest of the black race. As if we have to ask black folkies if they feel out of place in the white folk venues. Duh! Cheez, McGrath that's a racist attitude if I ever heard one!

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:15 PM

Cause we had a big scare? Dunno... Pale, maybe... white? I guess it is keeping late hours in dark pubs, more grey I think...
Larry

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:08 PM

I was black once but I'm not anymore & I'm sure that's why I used to love the blues. And there are many here that do the blues justice. There are even some here that specialize in the sea music of the West Indies & surrounding islands, of the Manhaden fisheries & Georgia Sea Islands & there are some who've come out of prison singing the worksongs of the southern prison farms. This is so unfair but really why on earth would someone of their culture be drawn to anglo folk music that's the music & culture of those that hung a yoke around their necks for centuries besides they have a music of their own born out of that yoke that speaks of their heritage in a way that no other music could. I also don't wonder for a moment why someone who's been on a prison work farm (besides Leadbelly) would sing about afterwards like an advertisement and then have some white guy like myself capitalize on it not pass on any credit & then help bury it's roots even deeper. Not to long ago it was thought that the kingdom of shanties were somewhat, somehow effected by the black sailors of the period when it may be that they provided far more to it's development than any other culture only to have their traces white washed away. Barry

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Gypsy
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 09:06 PM

You ever notice that when you read a book, the characters are always the same colour as you? Well, it is the same at The Mudcat. So I see everyone as being teal with pink spots. Oh yeah, and glitter, and fringe.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: tar_heel
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 08:57 PM

yea,what difference does it make??do i have to be another color just to exist here? if so,cancel my membership!!!

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: GUEST,Alistair
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 08:34 PM

Actually I find this thread offensive. Is there really a need to bring this non-question up? I always thought that the internet was a forum where race didn´t actually exist, looks as though I was wrong. Ed, what difference does it make?

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 08:07 PM

By definition anybody who posts on the Mudcat is going to be interested in folk music.

Most are "white", I imagine, probably disproportionately so (I mean most people in England/Australia/the USA are "white" , and those are the kind of places where most Mudcatters are, it appears, so you'd expect a sizeable majority of "white" people in any case.) So they aren't going to have much direct knowledge of the reasons why their "black" contemporaries might not be into the same kinds of folk music.

And "black" Mudcatters aren't necessarily going to have much more to contribute on this, since they are into the music themselves or they wouldn't be here.

Though of course there might be black Mudcatters people who don't feel comfortable in folk venues, but who are comfortable on the Mudcat. If so, it would be interesting to hear from them. They might be able to say if there are any things about the folk venues which have made them feel out of place, over and above the fact maybe that there might not be many black faces around in those places.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 08:01 PM

I suppose part of the answer to Ed's question is that the "folk music" only exists for people outside of the culture that created it--if you are a part of the culture, it is just music, and you don't need to go to somewhere else to hear it and talk about it--

It has always seemed to me that part of the cost of becoming a part of mainstream Western society (don't know what else to call it) is that you lose your roots. A lot of the people involved in folk clubs, tradtional music of one sort or another, and folk revival stuff are trying to recapture some of what was is missing in the mainstream--

Stuff like playing music, and singing, and and having a common shared experience that isn't connected to TV or movies or radio or TGI Fridays--

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM

How do you know I'm white? I've never posted a picture of myself.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Gary T
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 07:30 PM

If you look at the performers and audiences of folk, bluegrass, Irish, and country music in the U.S., they are overwhelmingly white. I would venture that most American Blacks (as well as other minorities, to various degrees), are minimally exposed to much of this music. Their parents didn't listen to it and their friends don't, so they hardly ever hear it, and of course that means their kids probably won't hear it, and the cycle continues. Blacks, and to a perhaps lesser degree Hispanics and Asians, often are immersed in their own subculture. Some of it leaks out, witness jazz, salsa, etc., but to the extent that familiarity with something results in developing a taste for it, very little folk etc. is going to leak in. Furthermore, of the four genres I mentioned above, only country gets any significant radio/TV airplay, so the other three tend to be confined to their own subcultures.

To sum up, I believe musical taste is largely (though certainly not exclusively) developed through repeated exposure, and most American non-whites have very little exposure to the kind of music discussed here, which is predominantly folk.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 07:27 PM

ED,
I have wondered the same thing. No one here seems to specialize in music from the Islands or slave songs. Minimal Gospel coverage. No African music that I know of.
Every once in a while I am tempted to ask a poster if they are black but then assume it's an inappropriate question. Tippy toeing across the eggshells here.
I live in a heavily Hispanic neighborhood and have recommended the Cafe to many musicians whose initial reaction is "Wow, do you really think they want to hear my flute or guitar or whatever" But none have ever shown up.I'll keep trying but I think maybe some outreach is in order. Anybody agree?

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:25 PM

That's cause you're a sociology maven Ed.

The question though is valid regarding folk in general, and if you combine Soph's answer and Aine's you have good start.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:19 PM

sophocleese,

that's a very valid point, and of course skin colour is an absurd way of judging anything.

But why is that 'black' blues music has become a 'white' interest?

I'm more curious than anything...

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:12 PM

Umm Ed, can I ask another question? Does English Folk Music, beyond a few exceptions, exist in Black Music clubs? As far as I know Mudcat does not attempt to actively discriminate on the basis of skin colour, but it also doesn't actively attempt to recruit on the basis of skin colour either. Like Fionn I know very little of blues music and would like to learn more. The only way I can see for more threads on blues to get really going is for mudcatters to encourage blues musicians and fans to come here.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:08 PM

Paddymac,

Of course, everyone here is of a unique background. My question, is I guess more general...(I won't repeat myself)

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:07 PM

You're likely right - but I've never hunted through the pictures to check, and the people with pictures are only a small sample of the people on the Cat anyway.

But I'd suspect that there are people on the Cat that you might assume are "white" who aren't. That's the nature of the Internet.

Insofar as there might be fewer people of other colours and ethnic origins into folk music in various places than you'd expect, I'd suspect there are different reasons. And I'd think that it's not true in all places. Well obviously it's not true. Africa and Asia and KLatin America are full of people enjoying and performing folk music.

But as for the folk clubs and folk festivals and folk venues of Northern Europe and North America and a few other places - I'd like to hear if there's any sense that in some way they are felt as unwelcoming by black people and brown people.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: paddymac
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:03 PM

What do you mean by "white", Ed? Seems we had some discussion on this general topic some time ago, which revealed that there are a number of folks here with various kinds of mixtures of backgrounds. The door here is wide open for any one to walk through, and I believe we do a good job of making people feel welcome, and that without having any idea about their racial background(s). One of the things that I cherish most about Mudcat is the ability to chat with folks and respond on the merits of whatever they have to say, without "interference" either way by visual clues.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:56 PM

Very reasonable question Ed. I'm glad someone thought to ask it. The hilarious theories of Flattop, Aine etc aside, I'm wondering whether it is simply that the blues enthusiasts in the forum are massively outnumbered by the folkies?

My own serious musical interests, European art music apart, are English & contemporary folk and Irish traditional. These are fantastically well catered for here. But I've always intended to get better informed about blues, and I thought Mudcat might be the way. So far, I've seen very few blues-related threads. And my own knowledge of the subject is so poor, I don't even know the right questions to ask to start threads myself.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:55 PM

I'm tired, and I probably didn't express myself too clearly in my initial post.

To quote Martin Carthy: "It's a real drag that, beyond the occasional exception, Black music doesn't exist in English Folk Clubs"

I'm just trying to understand why...

Ed

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: SeanM
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:42 PM

Probably due to a large amount of the posters performing or seeking in the European/"Anglo" (I know, they ain't all anglo, but if ya gotta lump it, go for something most people will know) traditions, or in the American Folk Revival tradition.

I wouldn't remotely say that other 'races' are discouraged from posting, but honestly there just isn't as much discussion of other musical traditions.

M

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:41 PM

McGrath,

I was afraid that this thread would be taken the wrong way - and you already have!

"How do I know?" - a look at the pictures in 'mudcat resources' and your experiences of folk clubs / festivals, should be enough to answer that...

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Áine
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:38 PM

I don't know, Ed. Shoulda asked Mom and Dad while I had the chance...

Now the not-so-cheeky answer -- I've heard discussions about this on a few public radio talk shows, and it seems the majority opinion is that the expense of the technology is still out of reach for many minorities. However, with the release of the new 'Internet only' devices, and the spreading of cable and DSL lines, the situation will be changing in the next few years. That's what I've heard, anyway.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:35 PM

of course not.

i was simply wondering why there are so few black people in folk clubs, and here

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:33 PM

How do you know that anyway?

I'm a sort of pinky grey colour meself, but it'll do for now, and the bits that show are mostly covered in hair.

And as for "why" - well, I'm that colour because I was born that way.

Subject: RE: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: flattop
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:31 PM

I was born that way and haven't gotten around to doing anything about it in fifty years. Do I have to start another apology thread on this?

Subject: Why are almost all 'mudcatters 'white?'
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:24 PM

The blues was created by 'blacks'

None of us are racist (I hope)

Yet almost all of the people here, are 'white'

Why?