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Help: garbage thread

kendall 16 Jul 00 - 07:35 PM
Ed Pellow 16 Jul 00 - 07:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Jul 00 - 07:56 PM
Joe Offer 16 Jul 00 - 08:27 PM
kendall 16 Jul 00 - 09:13 PM
Big Mick 16 Jul 00 - 10:43 PM
GUEST,The Yank 16 Jul 00 - 11:05 PM
Jeri 16 Jul 00 - 11:23 PM
katlaughing 16 Jul 00 - 11:25 PM
dwditty 16 Jul 00 - 11:31 PM
IvanB 17 Jul 00 - 12:28 AM
Ebbie 17 Jul 00 - 01:25 AM
katlaughing 17 Jul 00 - 02:06 AM
rangeroger 17 Jul 00 - 02:17 AM
The Shambles 17 Jul 00 - 02:32 AM
Escamillo 17 Jul 00 - 03:54 AM
Chanteyranger 17 Jul 00 - 05:45 AM
Bagpuss 17 Jul 00 - 05:56 AM
The Shambles 17 Jul 00 - 07:01 AM
Bagpuss 17 Jul 00 - 07:14 AM
kendall 17 Jul 00 - 08:19 AM
Ed Pellow 17 Jul 00 - 08:51 AM
katlaughing 17 Jul 00 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,harpgirl 17 Jul 00 - 12:02 PM
Bagpuss 17 Jul 00 - 12:09 PM
Big Mick 17 Jul 00 - 12:25 PM
Llanfair 17 Jul 00 - 12:28 PM
Sorcha 17 Jul 00 - 12:29 PM
Bagpuss 17 Jul 00 - 12:33 PM
kendall 17 Jul 00 - 12:39 PM
Big Mick 17 Jul 00 - 12:43 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Jul 00 - 01:15 PM
Little Neophyte 17 Jul 00 - 01:57 PM
Max 17 Jul 00 - 01:59 PM
kendall 17 Jul 00 - 03:03 PM
Kim C 17 Jul 00 - 03:08 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Jul 00 - 03:08 PM
Bert 17 Jul 00 - 03:15 PM
Morticia 17 Jul 00 - 03:20 PM
kendall 17 Jul 00 - 03:27 PM
Little Neophyte 17 Jul 00 - 03:32 PM
kendall 17 Jul 00 - 03:33 PM
Irish Rover 17 Jul 00 - 03:39 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Jul 00 - 03:41 PM
kendall 17 Jul 00 - 03:45 PM
Bagpuss 17 Jul 00 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,harpgirl 17 Jul 00 - 04:03 PM
Bagpuss 17 Jul 00 - 04:07 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Jul 00 - 04:28 PM
bbelle 17 Jul 00 - 04:31 PM
Bert 17 Jul 00 - 04:37 PM
SDShad 17 Jul 00 - 05:14 PM
Rick Fielding 17 Jul 00 - 05:20 PM
bbelle 17 Jul 00 - 05:31 PM
Peter T. 17 Jul 00 - 05:38 PM
Little Neophyte 17 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM
Homeless 17 Jul 00 - 06:16 PM
catspaw49 17 Jul 00 - 06:25 PM
Peter T. 17 Jul 00 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,harpgirl 17 Jul 00 - 06:31 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Jul 00 - 06:44 PM
kendall 17 Jul 00 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,harpgirl 17 Jul 00 - 07:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jul 00 - 07:50 PM
wysiwyg 17 Jul 00 - 07:50 PM
InOBU 17 Jul 00 - 08:02 PM
wysiwyg 17 Jul 00 - 08:06 PM
Morticia 17 Jul 00 - 08:23 PM
rangeroger 17 Jul 00 - 08:37 PM
bbelle 17 Jul 00 - 09:46 PM
death by whisky 17 Jul 00 - 09:47 PM
katlaughing 18 Jul 00 - 12:22 AM
The Shambles 18 Jul 00 - 02:20 AM
Escamillo 18 Jul 00 - 03:07 AM
CamiSu 18 Jul 00 - 03:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 00 - 06:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 00 - 06:40 AM
The Shambles 18 Jul 00 - 07:03 AM
katlaughing 18 Jul 00 - 09:09 AM
JedMarum 18 Jul 00 - 09:32 AM
bbelle 18 Jul 00 - 11:07 AM
katlaughing 18 Jul 00 - 12:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 00 - 12:52 PM
InOBU 18 Jul 00 - 01:06 PM
InOBU 18 Jul 00 - 07:10 PM
The Shambles 18 Jul 00 - 07:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 00 - 08:08 PM
Little Neophyte 19 Jul 00 - 07:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jul 00 - 02:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jul 00 - 02:34 PM
MMario 19 Jul 00 - 02:41 PM
Little Neophyte 19 Jul 00 - 04:11 PM
SINSULL 30 Jul 00 - 08:18 PM
kendall 30 Jul 00 - 10:01 PM
SINSULL 31 Jul 00 - 02:36 PM
kendall 31 Jul 00 - 03:53 PM
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Subject: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 07:35 PM

I have a suggestion which I'd like some feed back on. There have been too many crap threads and instead of responding to each of them and cluttering up the forum, how about we post comments to this thread? Pretend it is a dust bin. That way, all the rubbish will be concentrated in one smelly pile. What say?


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 07:50 PM

Kendall,

As I started the 'white mudcatter' thread (a reasonable question badly phrased) I feel partly responsible for the current spate of nonsense.

I'd love your idea if it would work - I don't think it will. People will be people...

Ed


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 07:56 PM

So if someone starts a futile thread, and we want to say something rude about it, without keeping it alive in the process, we post here instead, maybe with a link to the offendig beast so that people can see what we are griping at?

Sounds quite a good idea. Of course if someone thinks this is a futile thread, there could be a problem of infinite regression...


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 08:27 PM

But Ed, don't feel bad about your "white folkie" thread - I think it's a legitimate question that warrants some serious discussion.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 09:13 PM

I dont have a problem with the "white thread" it is the ones that followed that bug me. So, if we could keep all those retorts confined to this depository it might help to stop cluttering the forum


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 10:43 PM

Let me be the first.

I, for one, am just not going in to those threads anymore. I am now under attack by a person whom I thought was friendly. This person has now gone to personal invective (namecalling) and has determined I am smug. I guess this person wasn't paying attention in the classes that explain why insecure people result to name calling. Given the fact that this person is a mental health care person, I guess I shall just run right off for counseling. Would you like to know why this person is so upset with me? Because I dared point out that her treatment of the person WHO SET UP Hearme was out of line. She was rude and unreasonable. This person obviously has a real problem with criticism, even when it is warranted. Physician, heal thyself is good advice here.

My friends, these misguided little people will now try to drag us into a long debate, and they will try to use me, call me silly names, and so on. Please do not bother to defend me, if you are so inclined to do so. The Mudcat is much bigger than this poor soul. I intend to ignore this entirely. If you are a person who is my friend, I would ask that you ignore them is well. And if they persist, let them scream at the heavens. I believe firmly that I am just the latest target, and to allow them to use me, is just allowing them to hurt our community. I will respond no more to this idiocy.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 11:05 PM

Sorry to hear about your recent problems, Mick- unfortunately there are a lot of nutters about; nothing for it, I'm afraid.

I'm a bit surprised, however, that your experience and similar ones by other members doesn't engender more sumpathy (rather than the more common opprobrium expressed) for those folks who chose to remain "Guest-X" to avoid some of the nonsense you relate.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 11:23 PM

Nobody can take responsibility for the actions of immature, self-centered jerks who are desperately starving for attention - unless you're feeding them. I wish people would completely ignore this impotent psychotic bullshit and post whatever they want to post. Some just can't walk past it though, and that means it will probably continue. It's quite easy for me to ignore all of this "me, me ME! - LOOK AT ME!" crap.

I do respect you, Mick my friend, and I respect Ed for sticking his neck out (controversial, yes - wrong, no), and everyone else who has been helpful and kind. Destructive, mean people can go take a flying leap. Mick, I'm not going to defend you because you don't need any. (And I'd hope if the situation were reversed, you would do the same.) It would be like trying to defend someone from the rantings of a street corner lunatic. ("Hey, you with the tinfoil hat! You call my friend 'smug' one more time, and I'll tell the mothership where you are!")


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 11:25 PM

Well, Mick and Jeri, at least I know I am in good company. LMAO!!!


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: dwditty
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 11:31 PM

Well said, Jeri. Let's face it, there are mudcatters and there are ...well...
dw


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: IvanB
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:28 AM

In the attack on Mick, the poster painted me with the same brush in labelling us as a duo, along with a few other MCer's, of 'the biggest bullies around Mudcat.' I suppose I should be flattered to think that, in less than three months on Mudcat, I've gained enough power to be able to 'bully' any other member, especially since I've averaged less than one post a day, and the great majority of my posts have been in making lyric requests, responding to same, entering tunes and discussing technical subjects such as music software and MIDI files, etc. I invite anyone to click on my name above to bring up my post history and read my long string of 'bullying' posts.

I responded in one of the threads that my definition of 'troll,' far from having anything to do with fishing, is of a mean little creature who lives in the dark and comes out only to cause mischief. If my attacker wishes to engage in troll-like activity, that's her prerogative. But it sure puts the lie to her oft-stated concerns for the direction of Mudcat.

And, like Mick, I need no defenders. I haven't been a member of Mudcat long enough to have established the pattern of integrity which he has, but I'm willing to stake my acceptance in the community on the members' assessment of me over the long run.

'Nuff ranting. Let's get on to community building.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:25 AM

Quick question: Is my Musician Multi-talented thread counted among the garbage? I meant no harm- and to me the question is interesting. But I'm still pretty new here and I don't want to color outside the lines; I treasure this site and most of the people in it... Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 02:06 AM

Ebbie, that is a really good thread, IMO, and I see no reason that it would be considered anything else.

This bullshit which is causing so much trouble and good people to second-guess themselves (as you have just done) is coming from a very few who want compleat control and are insanely jealous that others have no need to engage in their stupid and petty games. They are narrow-minded and facetious people who have no self-love nor respect for themelves or anyone else nor for the music. Fortunately they are very much in the minority and as soon as the moon phases change they will figure out it is best to crawl back under their rocks and play with themselves.

Thank you, Kendall, for this thread.

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: rangeroger
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 02:17 AM

Every time I have gotten angry at one of the baiting posts and tried to post a reply,something has stopped my being able to post.
I have lost my cookie,the Mudcat has crashed, or I have had a lightening strike shut down my terminal.
It is just not meant for me to make nasty retorts and get sucked into the flamers and trolls games.So I won't.
rr


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 02:32 AM

For those that will have no idea what this is all about.

Why arn't most Mudcatter' musicians


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:54 AM

There is a new technique: some anonymous guest gets very upset for the crap he/she sees in the forum, then announces his/her departure, posting a long admonition on what the forum should be, and how stupid we are.
The technique is simply: generate the crap and then invite people to leave because the site is full of crap. The intention is to destroy the forum. And I beleive it is always the same person, who finds amusement in this activity. Don´t be surprised to read many posts from people who leave the forum, badly impressed by our stupidity. Their names will be headed by the word "guest" or even will be a valid name from somebody who lost his cookie. Let him/her/it predicate in the desert, and see this other thread:
MUDCAT DONATION*FineFolks&Place
to see what kind of people live here.
Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:45 AM

Good idea, Kendall. I've not been posting to the smarmy "why are all mudcatters (fill in the blank)" satires of the original thread asking about race, which I thought was a very interesting question. I've been here about 5 months, and in the relatively short time, I've never felt like an outsider to some imagined "in" crowd. I've never felt anything but welcomed by the mudcatters. Us newer mudcatters, though, must realise that the longer people are on this site, the more likely they would have opportunities to meet each other at gatherings and form some strong bonds that were started online. One can sense those bonds on many of the postings, and it's a great thing. I can see how that could mistakenly be viewed as exclusiveness, but in my own observations and experience here, I've found the old-timers to be open to forming new bonds. It's one of the things that make this site so special. Out of respect for Big Mick's wishes, I will try to keep a lid on it when I'm tempted to defend him against name-calling attacks. This, despite my view that it's to an attacker's advantage that they can be nasty with impunity, w/o a response. But maybe I should take my own advice on one of my early posts, and ignore the flamers. It's hard to, though. One last thing - I enjoy the friendly insults and repartee that Big Mick's critic sees as an example of worthlessness posting among an exclusive "in" crowd. Again, these kinds of posts show the kind of affection and relaxed attitude friends show for one another, and once you get to know your fellow mudcatters and gauge their temperament, I'm sure you can take part. Give friendships time to develope! This is my experience of it, and my two cents worth into this discussion.

-chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:56 AM

In my experience, it is impossible to get the majority of people to stop posting to inane threads. What i have found works better is posting to the thread, but only posting flippant comments and jokes. That way the thread doesn't usually turn into a row, we all have a laugh and the starter of the thread doesn't get a rise out of anyone, so gets bored.

Just a suggestion, feel free to ignore my jabberings.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:01 AM

If you follow the link that I provided you will see the thread that is being referred to.

What seems to have been completely overlooked and has passed without comment there and here is the ONLY significant thing in the thread.

Due to comments made there, The Mudcat appears to have lost another worthy long-time contributor, Dale Rose.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:14 AM

Though I don't know Dale, and I'm sure he will be sorely missed - I don't think Dale left purely because of comments made there. It seems that he wanted Mudcat to be something that it isn't at the moment, and that thread was just a catalyst.

He made the point about what would be left of mudcat if all the people who answer questions left. Well I wonder what mudcat would be like if it were purely a music resource site and nobody was allowed to post on other subjects. As a newcomer, I have to say I don't think I would have hung around. I'm not a great source of info, but I try to answer peoples questions when I can. I ask when I need to know stuff. And the people who answer me are very often the same people that i am talking to about totally unrelated things in other threads.

In short, I think if the mudcat was the way Dale wanted it to be, there would be far more people leaving. I'm sad that it cant be a place everyone enjoys, but I can't help that.

In most cases, it is very obvious whether a thread is a musical one or just a bit of idle chat. Surely its easy enough to avoid the type you don't like. And post more of the type you do like.

Oh well, thats all i ahve to say.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:19 AM

My memory is a bit longer than that of most people I know. (It's not as good as my ex wifes..she clearly remembers things that never happened) Seems to me that this latest wave of bitterness can be traced back to when Harpgirl suggested a womens music thread, and a few people jumped all over her. Am I right?


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:51 AM

Kendall,

I'm not sure of the origins of the current wave (and my 'white' thread didn't help) but it is just a wave, and waves inevitably crash.

It seems that we beat ourselves up here a little bit too much. If we just let it pass, it will pass.

Glad you're feeling better

Ed


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 09:10 AM

Goes back a lot longer than that with her, Kendall, back to January. It has been festering below the surface and just roils up sometimes.

Shambles, Dale's exit was noticed and commented upon, by me and a couple of others.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:02 PM

I haven't read this whole thread yet but I meant Kat and Mick were being bullies. Ivan you're just a follower, I'm afraid. And everyone else can line up with whomever they wish. I meant what I said Mick. I am disappointed in you. Impugning my 28 year dedication to mental health care doesn't intimidate me at all. I still say what I think. You are a big crybaby on top of being smug and arrogant.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:09 PM

"And everyone else can line up with whomever they wish."

Oh no!!! Please, no line-dancing.....

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:25 PM

Please don't line up with anyone.

I will not be drawn in. To do so lessens this place.

Any pipers out there that would like to respond to the Uillean pipes thread.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Llanfair
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:28 PM

I like the Mudcat cafe, and drop in two or three times a day. I am familliar with the way quite a lot of people communicate here, and hope that people are beginning to get to know me.
If I explore a thread that is not initiated by someone whom I have got to know, and the content appears negative, I come out of that thread without reading it. I know what I want out of this site, and it isn't to get all upset and angry because some stranger is enjoying pressing GO buttons.
I am still very ashamed about the way I responded to Harpgirl's thread about women only Hearme, and people got very upset in the end.
I am now VERY selective about the threads I read and get involved in.
Bron.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:29 PM

LOL!! All of this is just too ridiculous to even think about. We need to order bunches of Chill Pills from our resident Animal Doctor. Who is good at un-knotting knickers? ROFLMAO!!


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:33 PM

Knickers in a twist?

Simple solution - don't waer any!!!!

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:39 PM

tennis anyone??


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:43 PM

Bagpuss, I think I love you (in a very friendly way, FAIR ONE. Great style and great response. Mind if I borrow a bit of your style?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:15 PM

Kendall, I am not sure what you mean by people jumping all over harpgirl in the Women's Hearme thread and whether you are reffering to me or not but I made a perfectly reasonable and polite suggestion that any event that any event that excluded the participation of some members would be better ppaced in a side room to allow the main room to be kept open at all times.

As you are aware, I was trying to provide a facility for all and if you stop to give it a seconds thought, you should be able to see why I made that suggestion.

If anybody was treated harshly in that thread, it was me not harpgirl but I guess you don't want to see things that way - funny really after the thread, I recieved an number of personal messages, etc, none of wich expressed dissapproval of my stance and all except 1 agreed with my viewpoint and reasons for making what was a suggestion/ request not an order.

It appears to me that you read Harpgirl's comments, based their opinions on that without giving thought to the underlying issue that I was concerned about and tried to turn yourself into a knight in shining armour rescuing a damsel in distress.

Please go back and re-read the thread considering the implications of a "men-only", "wonens-only", "bagpipe-players-only", etc. thread. Also, please explian why something with participation rules should take place in the main room where other rooms are available. Perhaps I am wrong but even as the host at that time, if I had decided to organise a special event for banjo players, I most certainly would have used a private room to let those who just wanted the open song circle to be able to carry on as normal as I would have considered commandeering the main room for such an event as an act of sheer selfishness.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:57 PM

Can I just sit back and knit in my rocking chair while you guys hash out these issues.
How about I baked cookies for the gang or get water for the debater.
I would bring up some garbage but I try to avoid it because if I think someone is mad at me, Oy I just fall apart.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Max
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:59 PM

I have just spent my Monday morning reading most of the threads related to all the fuss of late, and I have boiled down my official Mudcat comment to this:

Row, row row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
LIFE IS BUT A DREAM

(and the Mudcat's just a Web site)

Thank you, and goodnight.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:03 PM

Actually Jon, I thought your suggestion made sense. Dont get paranoid now.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:08 PM

Y'all be sweet, now.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:08 PM

Sorry Kendall - perhaps you are right - I'm letting myself get paraniod.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Bert
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:15 PM

When us kids squabbled at home, Dad used to say. "Kiss and make up"

So I'm going to say that to all of you. Stop squabbling now and kiss and make up. I know you would do just that if you were to meet face to face. Don't let the written word drive you apart.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Morticia
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:20 PM

I thought there would be tears before bedtime.I'm ashamed to say I rose to the bait, for the first and I hope,only time to one of these facile and mischief making threads....probably as an over-reaction to having bit my lip ( keyboard?) on others that upset me much more. Mea culpa....it won't happen again.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:27 PM

You expect me to kiss Jon?... uh..what else could I do?


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:32 PM

Oh Kendallot, what is the big deal of giving another man a kiss. Well at least you could give him a big hug, I've seen lots of knights do that in the movies.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:33 PM

This was not my fight. I was only trying to point out that stuff like this goes back much farther than we think.Little hurts and imagined slights tend to fester, and by the time the pot boils over, no one can remember when it started. As far as my being a knight in shining armor goes, I have seen women intimidated and mis treated all my life, and I hate it. Any man who beats up on a woman is a god damn coward. So, whenever I see the slightest hint of that I over react..guilty. At least I own my hangups...hangup that is..I only have one.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Irish Rover
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:39 PM

That's alright Kendall, I don't kiss men either, don't want to never have yuk don't even smell good aggggggg! ladies now there's another ball game.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:41 PM

Well Kendall, we are all different. Personally, I am not one for kissing men but I have a number of male friends who I am likely to greet with a hug.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:45 PM

me too Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:51 PM

Big Mick,

Its my *lack* of style that people usually comment upon...

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 04:03 PM

...all I feel like saying right now is who the hell is going to bring back Dale Rose? I liked him. Alot!!!! I can live without a women's hearme. But I will yell about bullying, monopolizers, people who ignore the issues (lack of music talk, too much irrelevant chat) and change the subject to how I said something as a means of not responding to the issues.
Now I am going to get a drink of vinegar and water and post only on music for as long as I can stand it!
One more thing. I believe that democracy requires dissent. Or should I just agree with everyone all the time? Is that the kind of feedback you all want?????? Believe me, it is only for the frailest of egos. I know who is frail of ego and who isn't. And I do respect this. Mick, you ain't one of them. Neither is kat.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 04:07 PM

I think everyone should just bury the hatchet.

.........NO, NOT IN EACHOTHERS HEADS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 04:28 PM

Harpgirl, I don't know Aines policy if she has one over where such an event should be hosted (main room or public room) but for the record, I am in favour of the idea you proposed and do not think that you should abandon the plan.

As for Dale Rose, I think that his absence would be a sad loss to all of us and I hope he does reconsider. Having said that, I do feel that the only way to adjust the current balance is for those who wish to see more music related threads is for them to start them rather than complain about what they do not like.

Give this some consideration: People can only respond to the questions, discussions that are raised.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 04:31 PM

Okay ... Now that I'm back to some semblance of order and rationality in my life ... thanks to the Community of Mudcat ... I will let y'll in on a secret. I know who the most prolific of flamers is ... this is not conjecture, it is a fact. I'm not going to publish his name on the forum, at this time, but will not remain silent forever, if pushed to the limit.

I know this individual very, very well and he is not a threat to the mudcat or anyone on it ... if you do not respond to his bait. Even if you do choose to respond, he is not a personal threat. But he has hurt a lot of people, myself included, in this flames, and this shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

He makes nice, under his own name and flames under aliases. He is, in a word, a coward ... a gutless, spineless wonder. He attacks those who appear to him to be weak. He attacks people who he thinks are too nice, because he doesn't believe people can really be that way. He attacks people who enjoy music other than what he enjoys. He attacks people who simply have differing ideas. He is a great charmer, as well, and charms those who he thinks are "on his side."

Boy, do I understand why you would choose to respond, because I did and he goaded me into losing my cool and I made, what I consider, my most embarrassing statement on the forum. (If you're curious, check out the ALCOHOLISM thread and follow the link, that the flamer provides, to my statement.) In addition, because of his using my name to flame other people, I had to post a public apology.

There are people, here, who are the backbone of this community. They are not afraid to debate an issue or to stand up for what may be an unpopular opinion. There are several, but one the persons taking the heat lately, is Mick. As he has said, he doesn't need to be defended. But he is a dear friend and I will defend him because he genuinely cares about the mudcat and it's people. I don't know what his union constituents think of him, but, being a little short woman, who talks to Mick "nose to bellybutton," he's a big, redheaded teddy bear.

katlaughing is another one. kat and I don't always agree but she is a kind person and also genuinely cares about the mudcat. Is she on the mudcat a lot. Sure she is. Do you know of her circumstances? If not, perhaps you should. She always provides a helping hand when a mudcatter or guest is looking for specific information. She, along with Jon, have been a mainstay of the hearme sessions. She is not a bully and doesn't deserve the appelation.

I hope that I'm part of this substantial "backbone," of which I speak. This place is very important to me. And, while I lost my way for a while, I'm finding my way back, and more intent than ever to be part of the "good" and not of the "bad."

As for me, I think I was flamed in the Gibson thread, but I'm not sure. I asked the poster to organize his thoughts and get back to me. Knowing what I do, now, I'm not intimidated by the flamers and could just as soon tell them to go to hell, as look at them.

BTW ... I'm writing this in the garbage thread, with the hope that it will reach the people who count, not the people who are so intent on destruction.

So, my advice, which is probably worth about the same as a cup of coffee ... is to ignore the flames. If you don't, they win. I know we've said this many times, but the best way to stand and be counted is to protest in silence. Don't leave the forum because of the flamers. Don't leave the forum because it's not exactly what you want. Stay, with whatever knowledge you have brought, and help to make it a better place. In other words, be a part of the solution ... not a part of the problem.

If you think I should start a new thread and post this message to it, let me know. I don't care if it draws the flamers ... I can handle it.

love ... Jenny

who is thankful to feel alive once more ... for this wonderful community ... to g-d for her voice ... for her friends ... for her ability to see right from wrong


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Bert
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 04:37 PM

OK Harpgirl, Let's talk about 'the issues'

Lack of music talk. - I am not a great authority on folk music. I'm a singer/songwriter, I've been criticized somewhat in the past for talking too much about my own songs. But that's what I know about. I don't know the origins of Spancil Hill, or whether Bob Dylan was better then than he is now. So I don't talk about those things. I can't FORCE other people to talk more about music. If people want to talk more about music then they should get on with it. The perceived monopolizers are only filling the gap left by those who don't post about music. And I say perceived because in an open forum such as this there is NO MONOPOLY because anyone and everyone is free and encouraged to post whatever they so desire.

Too much irrelevant chat - There have been a certain number of irrelevant threads started by someone who seems determined to cause trouble. But most of it has been silly stuff which can easily be ignored. If it gets out of hand I am sure Max will deal with it just as he dealt with TTCM.

Dale Rose - If someone chooses to leave it's kinda sad, you could try sending him a personal message, telling him how you feel. I like him too, COME BACK DALE.

Bullying, no one ('cept our Max) has the right to tell anyone else what they can or cannot post. So if they try to tell you, they are just pissing in the wind, they can't bully you because they have no authority over you.

Women's Hearme - I think it's a great idea, no one can stop you if that's what you want to do - GO FOR IT. If others don't like the idea they don't have to tune in.

...should I just agree with everyone all the time? - Of course not. I love hearing what you have to say even if I don't agree with you all the time. Keep posting.

Love and Kisses - Bert


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: SDShad
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:14 PM

Lovely post, Jenny. For that post alone, I'd include you in that backbone of which you speak. As with anyone on this forum, I don't always agree with what you post, but I do always appreciate it.

And Bert...well, sometimes it seems like Bert is more like the 'Cat's kidneys or liver, filtering out the crap and impurities, finding a way to be kind and welcoming to just about everybody. That was much better put than I coulda, Bert.

This is genuinely a remarkable community, no matter what the flamers say.

So is this where we bitch and whine about Sinsull's garbage thread? :-)

Chris


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:20 PM

Hi Bert. Don't like these threads, but when vital information is needed...just can't resist. Dylan is neither "better nor worse"....just "different". There, I hope that puts your mind at rest.

Moonchild. I checked the Gibson thread to see if you were being "dissed". You're right, it's hard to tell. Maybe the poster is just filled with "Ventura Pride"! Would you trade a Gibson for one? I wouldn't.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:31 PM

Rick ... I wouldn't "trade" my Gibson for any guitar ... I just want another guitar.

moonchild (whining)


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:38 PM

I chime in to echo Escamillo's point -- there are people here who are deliberately looking for conflict and to mess this place up. They take great pleasure in stirring up antagonism because it feeds their belief that the world is full of hypocrites denying that the real basis of life is struggle and conflict. They find any language about affection, or community, or restraint as a goad to their need to prove that antagonism is the basic ground of life. they find fighting amusing: puppetmasters.

I would also point out that this is the Internet. It is not you and me in a room together. It is very, very, difficult to assess people's words and actions when they are not present with you. As a technology this is so new that we have not learned how to manage our interpretations of other people's behaviour through this new medium -- Because it promotes intimacy so easily, we tend to think we are actually talking to people, in the same room, using the same kind of brakes that we would use in a conversation. THIS IS NOT TRUE. It is a very new experience, and we are still misjudging what we read and how we respond. It is absolutely crucial that people not rush to judgement, and be very forgiving and polite to each other. We need far more manners and mutual understanding than one does in everyday life, not less. We do not have instant feedback, and personal touches. It is very fragile. Personal gestures of goodwill and friendly meeting make it much less fragile, but not everyone can do that. That is why attacks are so hurtful, why cursing is usually a mistake, and misunderstandings are common occurences. This is multiplied a thousandfold in issues of gender, politics, and religion. I do not say that we should stay away from them: but we need to be extra patient and forgiving with miscues, misintepretations, and general problems. This is different than the deliberate saboteurs I mentioned above.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM

Oh Peter T. this is a very good point. It is kind of like being blind.
Putting extra effort into not rushing to judge, being more patient, very forgiving and exceptionally polite to one another is kind of like walking around with your seeing eye dog.
And you are right about it promoting intimacy very easily and we must take extra care in handling other's feelings gently.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Homeless
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:16 PM

I would like to propose a challenge.

The quantity of "garbage" threads lately has really turned me off of Mudcat, but I've hung around hoping things would get better soon. I really don't want to abandon it completely, because y'all have been a wealth of information for the questions I've asked. However, I personally would like to see more music related stuff, and a significantly lesser amount of troll and/or garbage threads.

So, my challenge is this. Any time someone starts a garbage thread, figure out a way to turn it into a musical (or at least Mudcat) thread - Much the way the BS: Do Mudcatters like Leather thread was commandeered.

Rick started a precedent of using provocative thread titles (What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat? (at least Rick's was the first I ever saw - apologies if it should go to someone else) for legitimate threads to incite participation among readers. Well, someone is manufacturing the provocative titles - all we have to do is supply the threads.

Are there any takers for this challenge? Does anyone else feel that this is a good idea?

(P.S. - after re-reading this thread, and re-reading my message, I think a definition may be in order. The difference I draw between a "legitimate" thread and a "garbage" thread is one of intent. If someone asks a serious question with the intention of finding out an answer or opening a discussion ("white" thread) that is a legitimate thread. If the thread is only to provoke (emotional?) response or outburst it is a garbage thread. My opinions only, but the ones I've used to define the challenge.)


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:25 PM

One of the more interesting things I'm enjoying anymore is coming back here after a weekend camping or something and finding out, "What's Happened NEXT?" This one deteriorated pretty rapidly, but probably because its been fermenting for awhile. And now it seems to be moving back in the other direction.........hmmm....much like life in general.

I particularly like these "Garbage Threads." The other day I suggested a primal scream kinda' thread and I see the idea isn't foreign to quite a number of others. Taking Peter's comments into account, this place is still very much like any small town where everybody knows everybody else's business. This stuff gets real nasty and then it passes for awhile. You'll find the same cast of characters here in all of their most radiant personal worsts and bests. Again, outside of Peter's observations, the one differentiating factor here is that you can easily move away.

Bert my friend, what are you taking for the CRS? Seems to be working well as that was an incredibly fine post. Now I believe I'll try to tune in Brother Rick's show and pray for no net congestion, while I catch up on a few other threads. I'll just let out a quick scream here first.........

AAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGIIIIIIIIIYYYYYYIAAAHHHHHHH

Thanks. Alrighty then.........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:28 PM

Actually, Bonnie, you prompt me to say that I understated the problems. Here, you can attack people without any sense of what their own feelings would be, you can attack them and run away without penalty.
In other areas, some people create personas and veils here; others are just themselves, and are open -- and assume that everyone will adjust to that. That everyone knows they are "right on line" -- sometimes even more than they might be in ordinary life. But some people aren't good at that kind of interpretation -- and others take advantage of it. So, it is very easy to abuse the intimacies created here, or in lots of places in cyberspace. Virtually everyone who writes on a computer does this privately, in their own personal space, which they go into, and this induces a feeling that one is transparently talking to the "out there" as one types. Also, very quickly -- because they have to try and read between the lines, or weigh someone's character on the strength of their writing style -- people invest a lot of interpretative energy into other people's stuff, because there is less of it than there would be if they were there in person. It is ripe for fantasy generation. I have been researching occasionally into some of the first psychological literature on Internet behaviour, and it is very very odd, psychologically. I don't think we realise how strange it is, and some normal defences (created during the print and telephone world) seem to get undermined. We need to be very clear that we are dealing with something new, and appropriately patient.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:31 PM

...thanks Bert. I always feel calmer after you have spoken. I appreciate your plain spoken intelligence.
Jon, I wish there was support for a women's Hearme. But there doesn't seem to be. I'm not into leadership on the forum, though. I have too many responsibilities in real life.
Moon, I appreciate your remarks. But I don't agree with all of them.
After attending the memorial service for my friend's son this weekend, all this arguing seems petty and irrelevant. If anyone is curious about this, ask moonchild or Kendall. They know what happened but I wouldn't want to put it in a public forum. I don't have a mailbox here anymore.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:44 PM

Bert, I have to dissagree with you slightly one your view point over the usage of Hearme. It is true that nobody can stop anybody using the facility (at least not easily) but if your arguement was followed to the letter one could argue "I want to swear and be abusive - nobody can stop me so I will do it".

I do believe that Harpgirl's suggestion was a good one but in Mudcat, if someone want's to raise a new topic, they start another thread rather than try to change the direction of a current thread. I still feel that the same principle should be applied to Hearme - keep the current thread as the open session that it became and use other rooms, freely availalbe on Aine's site for additional purposes.

OH and BTW, in spite of our disagreements over certain issues, I feel strongly that most if not all contributers to this thread are of the "kiss and make up" school of thought although one some issues that has to involve "agreeing to disagree".

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:56 PM

what Harpgirl had to face this weekend was nothing short of horrifying.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:14 PM

...kendall...I appreciate your support. His mother, brothers, dad and the rest of the family are the ones having real difficulty.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:50 PM

"The most distasteful duo of bullies lately besides Conrad, Shambles, and McGrath" - that took me a bit aback. I can be garrulous, but I can't think of any time I ever set out to bully anyone. If that's how it's seemed, that's not how it's been meant.

And I'd be grateful to have an indication of when I may have stepped across the line in harpgirls's view, and whether other people share that view.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:50 PM

When all is said and done, what I keep of my time at Mudcat is the time spent getting to know new friends and being as good a friend to them as I know how to be. This includes being in many new friendships where each of the two people are learning from each other just how good a friend they can be.

Sometimes, being human, I forget how rare that is, in any setting, and what a privilege it is to have that possibility so EASILY here. When I forget that sense of privilege, it doesn't seem like it IS easy. But it is. You can look across a crowded forum here and begin the wonderful adventure of knowing another precious and unique human being.... much more often and with much better result that is usually the case in a "real" crowded room. And it isn't just cuz it's virtual and thus safe or masked or whatever-- it is because the affinities of people drawn here are already half of the package I would say make an ideal friend. For me. (And I love it that the frinds I make here seem to feel the same about me.)

In fact, even the people here who think I am totally full of shit and want nothing to do with me are, actually, people I have more in common with, and clearer communication with, than the average run-of-the-mill joe or jane on the street. So actually, if I just remember to move over to that viewpoint, a sworn "enemy" at the Mudcat is already closer and dearer than most of the people physically available in my world on a daily basis.

It's no wonder we keep coming back, whine though we may about the lack of absolute perfection in this wondrous place.

And Kendall, I love that you made a place to say this.

And Mick, just being yourself here obviously invites people to think, think again, go away and think and come back-- to try to communicate clearly again. The cost of that, to you, is not fair. But you shine through it so brightly.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:02 PM

One good thing about this tread, (besides it shows the popularity of garbage) Is that I had missed Big Mick's Uilleann pipe thread, and so it directed me to that. As to the popularity of garbage, it is odd, isn't it. We in Manhattan have had to send all our garbage to Staten Island, for years now now they don't want it any more so we are mailing it to Iowa or Idaho, one or the other, same to me... but all we have to do is post a garbage thread on some folk music page, and people will come and get it! Remember when we sent it down to South America and Cuba had to chase away our garbage barge with gun boats. If we had only known. Fancy that...
Wallowing in the hollow with all our friends
Larry


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:06 PM

Kevin,

I hope you get an answer because I know that you sincerely want to give your best here, and you give it unsparingly. I know you will take action to correct anything that needs to be addressed.

You ask how it seems to others... how to respond...

OK. See, that you would care enough to ask tells me all I need to know, on how to view you. I consider any opportunity to communicate with you a fine privilege indeed. And not because of anything you have ever DONE.... except to be as much of yourself as you know how to be. And I know that communication with you is built on a good solid chunk of fine-grained... humanity.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Morticia
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:23 PM

Harp-honey, I haven't always liked what you've had to say or the way you've phrased it but ( to paraphrase Swift, I think) I defend to the death your right to say it. The people who have been around awhile ( the back bone, if you will) have been accused, as I read it, of sycophancy and sacharine insincerity.........I don't believe that for a moment, but I can see how it might appear that way......we need people who see things differently and who are not afraid to challenge.I hope you feel you can come back as you ,rather than guest, again at some point but I understand why it isn't now.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: rangeroger
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:37 PM

InOBU,
Idaho is nothing like Iowa and I resent the implication. Did Rosalie Sorrels write a songbook called "Way out in Iowa"? No sir, it was Idaho.
Actually if more people were unable to make that distinction, maybe they would all move to Iowa instead of here.LMAO and a BG.Thanks for the laugh.
Besides after Cecil Andrus blocked the border with State Police and stopped the DOE from bringing nuclear waste shipments in, I don't think anyone can get away with sending us garbage.
rr


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 09:46 PM

Dear All ... I have to retract part of my above statement because I was wrong. The person, whom I referred to as a "prolific flamers," has had nothing to do with the recent flames and inane threads. They have contacted me regarding this and I don't think they have any reason to lie. This person said they also were not the flamers known as Twitchy and Threadie. Again, I believe them because there was no reason to contact me at all.

Although I didn't, and won't divulge names, this individual has taken a new attitude towards the mudcat, and deserves the respect of not being blamed for the actions of others.

We all make mistakes and this is no exception. We all deserve the right to apologize and make amends. We all deserve a fresh start.

I'm sorry for my part in this. I hope this person will come back to the mudcat and continue to share his wealth of knowledge with all of us.

love ...

jenny


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: death by whisky
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 09:47 PM

Iwonder what I'm getting into.I haven't been here very long.The Mudcat was referred to me by a musician from Belfast,who lives in Washington. He joined in on a session in Tralee. I want to talk to musicians.I started the How was it ? thread.{I can't do the blue thing)O.K,so the title wasn't great. But the idea is a valid one.What's it like to play in the place that you are?.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 12:22 AM

Hang in there, DBW, and take a look at some of the more classic threads. There should be a reference to some of them in the PermaThread at the top of all of the threads, called Mudcat FAQS. This is a good community, it just goes through these flare-ups sometimes.

Welcome to the Mudcat.

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 02:20 AM

As one of the unholy trinity mentioned, I would like to speak up for one of us.

I have met Kevin, and I have met and encountered many bullies in my time also.

The terms chalk and cheese come to mind. As less likely candidate for a bully, that I can think of.

Maybe it was not quite the correct word to use?

Now as for the other two?

As the comments came from a 'guest', maybe it should not worry us too much? I have had worse..........


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Escamillo
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 03:07 AM

Moonchild, I agree with you, but if you allow me, I would introduce some variant. You say:
"We all make mistakes and this is no exception. We all deserve the right to apologize and make amends. We all deserve a fresh start."
Yes, but if I recognize to have been a personal attacker, an anonymous or false-identity flamer, or a saboteur to a group of people, I SHOULD identify myself and make my apology PUBLIC, not privately commented to one member who will respect my privacy. Only then I will deserve a fresh start.
Besides, who, under a shell of anonimity, could claim for a "respect of not being blamed for the actions of others" ?

I think that a self-introduction and a public apology is what this person should do, if he wants to be respected, regardless of his music knowledge. I bet that then, we'll all be glad to welcome a new member.
Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: CamiSu
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 03:15 AM

I must admit that it gets more than a bit confusing to try to read a thread and retain who said what--especially when there are so MANY people talking. (A bit like town meeting around here when we're a bit riled). Seems to me that the best way to end threads one doesn't like is Don't Post! Each time we do that thread is extended another 24 hours... Jenny- so well said. When we don't have all the other signals that people put out when they speak, we put our own crayon onto someone's words. And as often as not that crayon is the wrong color. All the posts I've seen from Harpgirl lately have SEEMED to be overreactions, BUT when seen in the light of her stress lately, there is much room for forgiveness (Believe me I understand. I have been a prayer's breath from losing my then 5 year old son and have had to look at the --blesseedly minor--damage ever since. It's a hurt that can overwhelm in an instant and everyone else has no clue). Sometimes rereading can help, but we do need to take this in love, 'cause we wouldn't be here if we didn't have the common thread of the music. Praise is right, the farthest ends of Mudcat are closer than many people on the street. One of the things I liked best about New England was the folk community that stretched from Maine to the Adirondacks (and beyond I know but that was what was practical for a day's drive) and we could go to a Contra Dance or a concert anywhere and see friends, or at least people we know. This is just a much further flung community and we have lots to talk about. I don't limit my conversations with backstage techies to tech stuff. There is so much more. So I will continue to read the odd threads if they seem interesting, and comment if it seems a good idea.

Happy to be here! (and Kendall--glad you're feeling better)

Cami Su


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:31 AM

"Seems to me that the best way to end threads one doesn't like is Don't Post! Each time we do that thread is extended another 24 hours..." - CamiSu's got it right there.

That's where this thread comes in - you can register dismay and dissent at a thread without autonmatucally extending its life. Sticking a blue clicky to it so other peoiple can see what you are on about would make sense (and death by whisky - the FAQ shows you hiow to do that too - other wise yiu can just copy the address into the thread with a Ctrl+ C and a Ctrl + V)

Thanks for the warm fuzzies about me as a bully - but it wasn't that I'm hurt, just puzzled. I'd probably have asked harpgirl direct, but she's crumbled her cookie.

There's a definition of a gentleman as someone who never insults anybody unintentionally, and though I don't go for the term gentleman too much, I try to keep to that. When I think there's a reason to go after somebody I can be quite cruel. Here is an example.

Escamillo said: "If I recognize to have been a personal attacker, an anonymous or false-identity flamer, or a saboteur to a group of people, I SHOULD identify myself and make my apology PUBLIC." In principle I quite aggree - but recently that happened, and the resulting thread turned quite nasty. So in the interests of not mnessing up this watering hole, it might not always be such a good idea to come clean.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:40 AM

And here is a link to the thread about that public apology that went sour


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:03 AM

Who is this Max, bloke anyway?….. Posting songs and going on about rowing boats and dreams and such?………What does he know about any of this? ….Have a look at the 'newcomer's guide' first Max. Oh and welcome to The Mudcat.

Shania's old man, Mark said a lot of good common-sense things in his time. I think it was he who said. "there is nothing worse than someone who sets a good example".

Most contributors to the Mudcat do at least TRY, to set a good example. They do this by mainly reading, respecting and understanding what other people's wishes are and trying to accommodate them.

There are others contributors who appear to think that everyone else should accommodate only their wishes. Demanding their rights and recognising little, if any of their responsibility to everyone else

The forum does go up and down. It is the latter section that is responsible for making it dip down. It is unfortunate that when it does go up again, due to the efforts of the first section, it never seems to go back up to the level it was?

I think that it is sad, that far more attention, time and accommodation is spent in indulging those that behave badly, and thus encouraging them to continue, than appreciation is paid to those who do not.

Maybe that is the reason the forum does not return to where it was, prior to these spats?


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 09:09 AM

I totally agree with Escamillo. The recent apology which turned sour was done in a seemingly facetious way with nothing said as to who they really were or who we had really known them as, in other words, the condition of anonymity remained.

When we join this community, most of us commit ourselves to certain responsibilities of friendship. We encourage, scold, love, support and we do this with the expectation, usually well-met, that we can count on others to do the same for us. It requires a lot of trust, but with our common bond of love of music, we already start from a higher level.

I think the veiled references do more to tear the fabric of trust than has already been done. If the person Moonchild speaks of is sincere, I believe s/he should come clean, on his own and let the chips fall where they may.

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 09:32 AM

I keep looking for something worthwhile
it's been a long hot summer
brings new meaning to the term "summer doldrums"
but I keep comin' back
maybe I'll catch a breeze


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: bbelle
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 11:07 AM

kat ... you are right and so is Escamillo. I wrote the retraction regarding the events of the past three weeks because this person did contact me and I don't want to blame someone for something they didn't do.

I've always tried to be direct and veiled inferences are not my style, but I have my reasons, and they aren't very good nor would they make much sense to anyone but me. I won't "out" this person in the forum for personal reasons ... and because I fear ostracism by a good portion of mudcatters and I don't have the emotional stamina for that.

I stand by everything I said in my first post, with the exception of recent flamings.

Please don't respond to me in this post because I'm not going to say anything further. The person in question is lurking and I would prefer any more communications not be public. If you wish to PM me, I will respond.

This is a very difficult time for me ... please understand and have some patience.

jenny


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 12:31 PM

Sorry, Jenny, I was not pointing fingers at you. I will PM you, but want to make sure everyone understands, I think the onus is on THAT person to come forward, NOT for you to have to do that for them.

Take it easy and deep breaths...


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 12:52 PM

If someone regrets being a pain in the arse, and has firmly decided not to do it any more, that's seems good enough. Maybe they should do something gratuitously helpful anonymously to make up for it. Public naming and shaming and self-abnegation - I don't think that kind of thing really helps us move on.

Shambles post about how we seem to have some kind of downward motion, in which each time we recver from a decline we never get right back up to where we were - that strikes me as ominously plausible.

And it occurred to me that, properly speaking, this isn't so much a thread as a "meta-thread". You know, the way in an argument, instead of responding to what the other peron has said, you say something like "This is very important to you, isn't it?" and so forth, that is "meta-communication". (Really pisses me off when it happens to me...)


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 01:06 PM

Hey D B Wishkey!
How is the craic in Kerry Boy. I am here playing with Mary Courtney on occation - rarely, great gal from DIngle, and by the way, how is Morris McKenna and his flute? Give Fergus O'Flarity and Maz my best when you go west from Tralee, and the Begley family rules. UP THE KINGDOM... Ah Kerry, the best potatos in the world, of cource out side of Iowa, Rangerover. My old dad used to tell me all about the Grain Exchange radio in Des Moines Ohio. Well, anyway Rangerover, how proud you all must be that your Gov. got elected president, good ol Clinton. Writing from New York
Larry Otway


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:10 PM

PS Or is it Arkansaw... that the potatos come from? - Larry {:-0


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:58 PM

Until this post reaches about 30 posts, it might not be obvious what it is about. The truth is out there.

A reference to it probably needs to be here?


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 08:08 PM


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 07:04 AM

Kevin of Harlow, from reading the part of your posting 'You know, the way in an argument, instead of responding to what the other peron has said, you say something like "This is very important to you, isn't it?" and so forth, that is "meta-communication". (Really pisses me off when it happens to me...)'

I try to give some slack when that happens in a discussion.
Feelings will be involved in a discussion and maybe it is difficult for the other person to verbalize what they are feeling and it is difficult for me to know how they are feeling too.
So I will say, "I guess this is really important to you" and give respect to those feelings not verbalized into thoughts and take them into consideration.
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant on that posting, but that is how I took it.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:31 PM

Banjo - yes, that's what it's about, and it's often a very sensible way of proceeding, to step back and try to understand what is going on, and why something seemingly trivial is causuing such grief.

But it has to be done tactfully and cautiously - what I was referring to in my crack about getting pissed off is the way it can be done mechanically, and even aggressively as a trick, way of upstaging the other person, and winning the argument.

The real time when it comes in useful is when you apply it to yourself. "Why the hell am I getting so angry about this?" And when you do that you'll likely identify siomething competely out of the picture that is stirring things up.

Some of the upset that has been is and currently being expressed, about the various flaming and anonymous posting spats on the Mudcat strike me as fitting into this kind of context. The depth of feelings and anger being expressed seem out of kilter with what has actually happened, so perhaps other things are feeding into the cauldron.

But saying that kind of thing in a thread which is directly about those kind of things would just be stirring. Maybe a meta-thread like this might be a better place to talk in that kind of way, try to woerk out why it is tese uopsets upset people so much... Except that I can see that all backfiring.

Quakers are often good at this - when a discussion gets overheated, someone will be likely to call for a couple of minutes silence, probably without giving any reasons. It often works wonders. But there doesn't seem to be an equivalent for the Mudcat. Pity.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:34 PM

Banjo - yes, that's what it's about, and it's often a very sensible way of proceeding, to step back and try to understand what is going on, and why something seemingly trivial is causuing such grief.

But it has to be done tactfully and cautiously - what I was referring to in my crack about getting pissed off is the way it can be done mechanically, and even aggressively as a trick, way of upstaging the other person, and winning the argument.

The real time when it comes in useful is when you apply it to yourself. "Why the hell am I getting so angry about this?" And when you do that you'll likely identify siomething competely out of the picture that is stirring things up.

Some of the upset that has been is and currently being expressed, about the various flaming and anonymous posting spats on the Mudcat strike me as fitting into this kind of context. The depth of feelings and anger being expressed seem out of kilter with what has actually happened, so perhaps other things are feeding into the cauldron.

But saying that kind of thing in a thread which is directly about those kind of things would just be stirring. Maybe a meta-thread like this might be a better place to talk in that kind of way, try to work out why it is that these upsets upset people so much... Except that I can see that all backfiring.

Quakers are often good at this - when a discussion gets overheated, someone will be likely to call for a couple of minutes silence, probably without giving any reasons. It often works wonders. But there doesn't seem to be an equivalent for the Mudcat. Pity.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: MMario
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:41 PM

bonny, there is a big difference between the way people will ask "This is really important to you?" because they care and those who ask the same question basically as a gambit in not giving a damn; which is the way I most often encounter it. Especially in the working world where derailing the employee by trying to psych them out has become much more common.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 04:11 PM

Oh I understand what you are both saying Kevin & MMario. Makes a whole bunch of sense to me now.

To add to what Kevin commented about "Why the hell am I getting so angry about this?".........
I think it is a good idea to become a bit more introspective. I guess the best you could do on a forum like this is to ask that very question when you become upset. "why does this bother me so much".
I try to do that when I get really upset with a posting on a thread. I ask myself, 'why does this bother me so much?' And usually I come up with an answer that would mean very little to anyone else but myself. Yet, it helps me put things back into perspective and it also helps me grow as a person.

Kevin, why did you call me a banjo. I don't look like a banjo do I MMario, I look like PollyAnna

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 08:18 PM

Refresh.
Kendall,
For the record - your thread has more posts than mine but some are repeats done in error.


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:01 PM

sure, but, mine died on the 19th. You just refreshed it, while yours is still active.. and momma bear said.." bitch bitch bitch.. I'm trying to create an issue but, dont have much to work with here.. best leave it to others I guess lol


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 02:36 PM

You really are having a hard time not speaking if this is the best "bitch" you can come up with! Read a paper. Watch the TV News. If the stories don't aggravate you, the well coiffed anchors should. Move on. Hee Hee


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Subject: RE: Help: garbage thread
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 03:53 PM

actually, I'm just mocking the mal contents!


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Mudcat time: 11 July 2:53 PM EDT

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