Beggarman...

Subject: Beggarman...
From: Merry
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 02:28 AM

Hi,

I have recently purchased a cassete with Irish folk tunes. Looking for the lyrics to "The Beggarman" (played by Noel McLaughlin on my tape) I found this site... and some six versions of the song, plus some for "Hi for the Beggarman" which obviously is itself a version.

It surprisingly reminded me "The Pied Piper of Hamelin"... the old man that lures the young of the parents' house with a song.

Now, this song:

Wi his tooren ooran an tan ee Right an ooren fal de do dee Right an ooren ooren ee Wi an tooren ooren ay do

(The Beggarman 2)

What can that mean? OK, there's a lot of onomathopea, but could it be some old tongue?

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Bugsy
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 02:43 AM

Sounds like "Mouth Music" to me.

Used instead of going Daa daa laa laa etc.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 02:44 AM

Hi, Merry - I always thought it was the "dirty parts" of a song, garbled up so people couldn't understand them. Not so. It's a musical tool called a burden, a nonsense line or verse that's used for its musical value and to fill in the meter. Somebody gave a great explanation here, and I wish I could find it. My dictionary says burden, chorus, and refrain are just different words for the same thing, but they aren't. If I recall correctly, a "refrain" is a single line, repeated at the end of every stanza of a song. A "chorus" is a number of lines, repeated at the end of each stanza. And if I have this correct, a "burden" is a chorus or refrain made up of nonsensical words or sounds.
OK, you music pros, did I get it right?
Merry, I'd suggest you check this thread tomorrow or the next day, after the pros have awakened and had time to give a solid answer.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:01 AM

Ahhh, yawwwwwn!

Good morning, Joe, and good morning Merry.

It's at the end, or constitutes the whole, of a chorus, in many instances.

It can be compared to the 'Whack fol the daddy, O' line in the likes of 'Whiskey in the Jar'

You are right, Joe - in a way, I think.
Different songs have different 'criteria' for using such 'exclaimations'.
Some are 'Mouth Music' as Bugsy says, and some can be 'nonesense', serving only to encourage hearers of the song to keep the rhythm, or the flow, of the song going.

It is also a good opportunity for the singer to take a quick quaff of the Black Stuff, and return on cue ready for the next verse.

In short: There are many reasons for lines like the one above, in songs. Sometimes a research of the song itself can point you in a direction, as certain words in such refrains can refer to something specific, even though it is enveloped in 'nonesense'
Was that any help?

I don't know. I haven't really woken up yet!

B.

Subject: Burden? Refrain? Chorus?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:10 AM

Looks like I'm close to correct. Let me give you links to a few other threads for more information. Just click on a link, and you'll be whisked away to new information and enlightenment.
-Joe Offer-

• Whack-fol-the-diddle et al
• meaning - musha ring dumma do dumma da
• Folksong jargon
• Cruel Sister - which indicates I may not be exactly right about the term "burden."

Like I say, wait until the pros wake up....
I still prefer to think it's the "dirty parts" of a song, and Irish Catholics would sing them that way so the nuns wouldn't understand what they were singing about...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: I insist
From: Merry
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:36 AM

Okay, I'm not a native English speaker - refrain means "chorus" to me for one thing.

I am familiar with the idea of mouth music - Brassens did some beautiful stuff like that, check "Brave

Margot", if you speak French.

The point with this chorus is that some of the words seem to be actual words, you could read:

"*With* his tooren-ooren *and* tan ee(?)"

and so on.

I have no clues for the "tooren". I kinda supposed it to be some ancient word/form; the first line of

the same song reads:

"A beggar man came o'er yon lea, seeking oot for charity" - yon lea? oot?

And later:

"For I had a dochter, ane o ma aine"

I can figure out "out" for "oot", "one" for "ane", "own" for "aine"... but I need the context.

On the other hand, I feel I'm being led to find a meaning in the chorus. It is not a mere chorus, the

song makes it clear that the guy is singing; in another version - number four - there is a dialogue with

the girl, her final line is "And we shall be merry and sing" (no tooren/tooroo/whatever in this version,

though the first verse ends with "Will you lodge a beggar man? Lassie to my *too row* ray").

***************************

"The Pied Piper of Hamelin" is more than a tale, it's a myth. I might exagerate the importance of the link between the tale and the song(s), but the mythical element seems to be there - the old man enticing the child with his song. It has to be the beggar's song, or else we'd have to believe that young girls really go for "auld" beggars, wouldn't we? And if the magic is in the beggar's song, the words would be quite important, right?

So, I insist...

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 04:05 AM

Wher abouts does the song refer specifically to a child?

B.

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Merry
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:58 AM

"The auld woman gaed tae waken the maid"

And it doesn't need to reffer SPECIFICALLY to a child. Variants of tales can be very far apart in details, I remember reading a book about the myth of Prometheus, it seems they have some 1000 versions in Caucaz, and some of them don't even mention fire - the guy gets to be a hunter or a shepperd. The common part is that he is finally crucified(?) for fooling around with the gods.

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:34 AM

A lot of variants on 'The Jolly Beggar', where a beggar comes to the farm-house, asks for lodging, and as there is no 'spare bed' he is given the choice to either lie in the barn, or 'by the kitchen fire'

The beggar invariably chooses the fireplace.
Later on that evening, the farmer's daughter gets up out of bed to lock the door and is confronted by the sight of a naked beggar, and she quickly jumps into bed with him, and they get up to all sorts of things.

The 'maid' loses her virginity this way and curses the beggar and throws him out of the house.

The image of the beggar is often associated with King James VI of Scotland (James I of England), who was known for travelling around his kingdom in disguise, and seeking lodgings.

I have heard no references to Pied Pipers, though...or Prometheus for that matter.

B.

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Merry
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:41 AM

Tnx. I started with "The Beggarman" (v. 2 and 6 are closest to the song I actually heard, v. 3 is a totally different song, v. 4 is close to what you wrote, but features actual words in the song, no tooren stuff; I didn't manage to spot v. 1 and 5), which is a little different, the beggar is old - an old beggar, even naked, is unlikely to look appealing to a young maid - then he is invited directly to the house.

The maid herself is only mentioned, she doesn't "appear" (except for v. 4, which is closer to "The Jolly Beggar"). And there is no explicit refference to losing her maidenhead, except the last lines, where she is a mother, but then the old beggar isn't necessarily the father of her children.

I admit being an enthusiastic nature - and a poor English speaker - but I only said it "reminded me <The Pied Piper of Hamelin>". The rest of the "conversation" is my trying to explain that thought (and not to prove something I know very little of) - and you mocking.

Thanks for the valuable information, though.

Merry

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:29 AM

Mocking?

I needn't have bothered my ass, Merry
Figure the rest out yourself!

B.

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Gary T
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 09:50 AM

"Yon" is a short form of "yonder", meaning "that", perhaps more precisely "that one over there". "Lea" is a meadow.

"For I had a dochter, ane o ma aine"--I believe "dochter" is daughter; "ane of ma aine" is "one of my own" (as you figured, Merry).

"Will you lodge a beggar man? Lassie to my *too row* ray". Here the "*too row* ray" part sounds like "too ra loo ra loo ra", and I would guess it's meaningless filler.

"*With* his tooren-ooren *and* tan ee(?)"--here I have no clue.

I can't help but think this little tiff over "mocking" is a simple misunderstanding/miscommunication. Though Merry is more proficient in her (written) English than what I would call a "poor English speaker", some of her spelling and construction is consistent with someone who does not know English as her native tongue. Perhaps we should allow a little slack?

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 09:53 AM

It has already been sorted out through PM's, Gary
No problem.

B.

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 10:05 AM

Merry:

There is a glossary of Scots words here in the Forum:  Click Here  which you may find helpful with some of the less-familiar words.  In versions 2 and 6 -both Scottish- the point is that the older woman thinks that the beggar is an old man, but he's really just disguised as one, as the final verses go some way to explaining.  "Maid" can mean a child, a young woman, a virgin of any age, or a female servant; in this context, we're obviously looking at the young woman variety.   As to the refrain, I don't think that there's likely to be any hidden or lost meaning; quite often these things contain just enough "real" words to sound like a proper sentence, but really are just nonsense.  An example from the French tradition would be La Belle Fille de Parthenay, with the line J'ai me lonla lonlan dérirette, j'ai me lonla lonlan dérira.  As for mythic interpretations of traditional songs; these were very popular in the late 19th/ early 20th centuries, and were indeed highly entertaining.  All that talk of Sun Heroes and Sacrificial Kings...most of it was pure romantic speculation based on very little genuine evidence, and such theories are rather out of favour nowadays.  There's no harm in a bit of speculation, though; sometimes real insights are to be found that way.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Bearheart
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:48 PM

Hi Merry-- The variant you've got was recorded by Cilla Fisher (sister to Archie and Ray-- Fisher family is well-known in Scottish folk music circles) and her husband Artie back in the 80's. Her sister Ray got a lot of songs directly from Jeannie Robertson, the famous tinker ballad singer who was extensively recorded back in the 50's and 60's. (Caedmon, a British outfit, did a whole series of recordings of tinkers, farmers and ordinary folk singing the old ballads back then, and The School of Scottish studies has archives too.) I'm pretty sure this was one of Jeannie's songs. So the chorus could be "cant", which is tinker language. There's a whole genre of songs we almost never hear in this country that are "cant" songs-- they can be in Romany (the language of the gypsies) or can involve other words that are a sort of secret language spoken amongst the tinkers/gypsies/traveling people when they don't want to be understood by non-tinkers. If you just have to know for sure I'd try to find a copy of the Caedmon recordings-- a good university music library should have them if they have a folklore department--- I know the series included extensive liner notes.

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: sheila
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:19 PM

Brendy -
Are you sure about the beggar/king being James VI?
I thought it was an earlier king - James IV.

Subject: Tune Add: THE BEGGARS MEAL POKES
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:14 PM

In Walsh's 'The British Musical Miscellany', I, p. 50, nd [1734], is "The Gaberlunzie Man, by James V of Scotland", with a 3/4 tune as in 'Orpheus Caledonius', p. 43, 1725, and I, p. 95, 1733. Walsh reprinted a lot of songs from the 1733 edition of 'Orpheus Caledonius', but the comment about the origin is not in OC.

Somewhat later (but before Herd's publication of "The Jolly Beggar") we find:

X:1
T:The Beggars Meal Pokes. Compos'd by King James the 6th.
S:Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion', bk. 9, c 1758.
Q:1/4=120
M:C
K:G
G/|(G/A/)(B/c/)dG/G/|G/g/g/g/e3/2d/|g/b/a/g/ (e/d/)e/g/|\
d/B/~A/G/ A3/2::B/|(c/B/)c/d/ee/f/|(g/f/)g/a/{g/}f3/2d/|\
(b/a/)(g/f/) (ef/)g/|d/(B/A/)B/ G3/2:|]

Prof. Child notes, #279, that both "The Jolly Beggar" and "The Gaberlunzie Man" are regularly attributed to King James V of Scotland. (In the 1776 edition of Herd's 'Scots Songs' no attribution is given for either song.) However, Child noted that the earlier published one, "The Gaberlunzie Man", was first given in the 1724 edition of Ramsay's 'Tea Table Miscellany' (the 2 extant copies being at Yale and the Huntington Library and I've seen neither). There is no tune for it in A. Stuart's music for TTM, c 1726. Child adds: 'The tradition as to James Fifth is, perhaps, not much older than the publication in either case, and has no more plausibility than it has authority.'

Both "The Jolly Beggar" and "The Gaberlunzie Man" are probably early 18th century songs deriving from the mid-17th century "The Pollitick Beggar-Man" which is in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website at www.erols.com/olsonw, or in Child's appendix to #279 if you like want an expurgated version.

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 11:44 PM

There ye'are, now, Sheila.

Learn something new everyday, don't we?

B.

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: Mbo
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 11:47 PM

Paul Mounsey does a diffent variant, called "Journeyman".

--mbo

Subject: RE: Beggarman...
From: sheila
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 08:15 AM

Thank you, Bruce.