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Tune Req: But where do you get the tune?
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Subject: But where do you get the tune? From: Naemanson Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:51 PM I have been reading these threads with great interest. I like the awesome intellectual power this web site represents. People ask their questions and in the wink of an eye there are dozens of answers available. Some of them actually agree with each other and others may or may not. Either way it's very enjoyable. But I'm already causing thread creep in my own thread. My question has to do with the answers to lyric requests. Quite often the song which is cited looks wonderful but I don't have any idea what the tune should be. Or in another instance, someone will write a great parody for one of Aine's song challenges and I will have no idea what the tune should be. I'm afraid my mother left folk music out of her breast milk for my education is sadly lactating. (Never apologize for puns!) So where do I find the tunes? Thanks, Naemanson
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:06 PM Hi, Naemanson - you pose a good question There are lots of tunes available, both in the database and on our Mudcat Midi Page, which you can reach through the "Quick Links" dropdown menu on most Mudcat pages. If a song in the database has a tune, you'll find it through a "click to play" link at the bottom of the lyrics. It's an area where we're lacking, though. We need volunteers and ideas, so we can add as many tunes to the datyabase as we can. Some of us don't have the musical ability to transcribe a tune into notation "by ear." Others don't have the technical ability to use MIDI or ABC. I lean on Alison and Blessings Barbara to transcribe from recordings at times, but I hate to impose on them too much and it would be nice to have some other "by ear" transcription volunteers. John in Brisbane has done an outstanding job of adding tunes to the database, but we need more. In the meantime, one thing you can do is ask somebody to go on -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Sorcha Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:09 PM Joe, you forgot all the tunes at the Alternate Digital Tradition site . I have never had trouble getting into it. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: John in Brisbane Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:31 PM Hi Naemanson, this is an excellent question which should be part of The Mudcat FAQ. I'll give you my answer, but I'll have to add the URL's in a later thread. (1) The very best place to start is in the collection of 4000 or so tunes which are part of the on-line Digital Tradition search. This is covered very well in the FAQ's.
(2) If you suspect that the tune/song comes from the more popular genres such as rock/pop, country, classical, jazz a good place to look for a MIDI file of the music is the Midi Explorer search engine. http://www.aitech.ac.jp/~ckelly/midi/help/midi-search.html
(3) For folkie dance tunes there's a huge collection available from JC's tune finder (available from Mudcat Links). The tunes are in ABC format, but converting them to a playable tune or printed score is not too hard.
(4) Lots of Mudcatters have a collection of folk music in printed form or have them stored away in their heads. These talented people can then create an electronic music file (say a MIDI file) and post it to Mudcat MIDI's so that we can all enjoy them.
(5) Failing the above there are lots of other resources available, some on the Web, others in large public collections of published music. There are a number of Mudcatters who are expert ferrets in finding this sort of stuff.
Hope that this helps. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: John in Brisbane Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:34 PM Joe and Sorcha - ships in the night. Both points made are excellent. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Sorcha Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:06 PM Joe, Naemonson, and others: If I have a tune in my collection I can manually convert it to abc. I am not the greatest in this skill, but I can do it. Most of what I have are "fiddle" tune, ie, dances. I do have an eclectic collection of songs, (tunes and words) that I have picked up over the years. If I have it, I will be happy to abc it. No MIDI skills or programs yet. (giggle, John) |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:25 PM Naw!!! BEST place is to hang out at HearMe and learn them there! In a true emergency, I have heard that many Mudcatters will actually throw a melody onto a tape or an electronic sound file, and send it to you! McGrath of harlow has many of his on his website. And you can always send a personal message to the poster and ask them to call you to sing it! (Some of these people will try ANYTHING!) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:33 PM Sorcha, ABC files work fine. If you post them in the Forum, be sure to put a <br> line break after each line so all the lines don't get smooshed together. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: IvanB Date: 18 Jul 00 - 02:47 PM Joe, does your first post mean to imply that you have sound files waiting for transcriptionists? If so, I'd be happy to volunteer. Also, is there any list available of what songs in the DT DON'T have tunes? It sure would be handier than going through one by one. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 18 Jul 00 - 03:28 PM search in the DIGITRAD lyrics search (NOT the supersearch) for "NOT [click to]" exclusive of the quotes. Of course you THEN might want to do a forum search to see if it has been posted since, and probably check Alan of Oz'z midi site as well to avoid duplication of effort. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: IvanB Date: 18 Jul 00 - 03:56 PM Thanks, MMario. Dunno why I'm perfectly happy using the 'NOT' operator on a database on my hard drive, but continue to forget it on the internet. Of course, actually I was hoping that someone had already done a list and crosschecked it, to save me the work. But I've gone through 'G' in the DT and checked against the MIDI site, so I have a fair list of tunes to get me started at least. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 18 Jul 00 - 04:02 PM John in Brisbane had a list at one point, but I don't know if he has updated it. Hey MAX!!! I am willing to maintain a list of "Songs in the DT without Tunes" thread. if ya want.... |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 18 Jul 00 - 04:17 PM |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Jul 00 - 04:46 PM Ivan, thanks for volunteering. I'll e-mail you a WAV in the next day or two. I kind of think we don't want to take over things that have already been started. Alan of Australia maintains the Mudcat MIDI page, and you should submit MIDI files to him. Alison and I are listed at Mudcat MIDIs, but right now she and I do not add tunes to the page because Alan has been able to handle it all. It's no problem if you e-mail tunes to Alison or me, because we just forward them to Alan. John in Brisbane has been spearheading a project to add tunes for all the database songs that don't have tunes, so I kind of think we should let John take the lead in maintaining a list of the songs that need tunes. Mmario, you've got a good idea, but I think you should work it out with John. The editors of the Database are Dick and Susan, and they're the ones who make all the decisions about the database. I help harvest lyrics, since I am blissfully retired and Dick and Susan did not want me to stray off into a life of crime and wickedness in my idle hours. I just found out something from Dick. I've been entering tunes in Noteworthy Composer, and I usually enter the lyrics at the same time because they serve as a good guide to make sure I don't get lost in the notation. Then, I've been converting the Noteworthy file into a MIDI without lyrics. Well, Dick says the Noteworthy tunes work better for database submissions than MIDI files, especially if they have lyrics attached. So----if you've typed up a tune in Noteworthy, send that along to Alan, too, and he'll see it gets sent to the right place. If you're submitting a tune, send it to Alan at Mudcat MIDIs. If you're posting lyrics, post them in the Forum so everybody can see them and comment on them immediately. It's not a bad idea to add a note in the Songs You've Posted thread if you see the song hasn't been harvested for the database. We mark songs with a birdie ^^ when we've harvested them. If the song is redundant and is already in the database, we mark it with a redundant third wing - ^^^ Note that you do not have to start a new thread to post a song. If you're posting a train song and there's an existing thread on train songs, that's a good place to post it. Just make sure the Subject title of your message includes the word ADD and the song title. Also, try to remember to put the song title IN ALL CAPS at the top of the lyrics, and the name of the songwriter (in parentheses) in the second line. Also, I'd suggest that you do NOT post lyrics in the "BS" threads if you want them to be included in the database. We haven't figured out a sure-fire way to avoid missing lyrics that have been posted, but we're working on that. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Jul 00 - 05:04 PM It is a bit of a tedious task to transcribe songs from recordings, so it's best if you can submit tunes in some form of notation (Noteworthy, MIDI, ABC, GIF, or even on tattered shreds of paper snailmailed to Dick). However, if you can't give us notation, consider sending us a recording. If you can sing on HearMe, you can make a recording that can be e-mailed to us. Just use the Sound Recorder utility that's supplied with Windows. In Windows 98, it's at this location: C:\WINDOWS\SNDREC32.EXE (I could actually make that a clickable link that would start the program on your computer, but it gets a little messy and brings up all sorts of security warnings first.) Anyhow, if you can't make the notation for us, e-mail me a recording (less than 1 megabyte in file size, please - RealMedia, MP3, or WAV), and I'll get somebody to transcribe it. Click on my name below to send me e-mail. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 18 Jul 00 - 05:23 PM !!!! you mean I have been transcribing from paper into noteworthy , saving as a midi, converting the midi with midi2txt and then posting the lyrics and tunes seperately when I could just send out the NWC file??? yikes..... course if I just sent out the NWC file, they'd never get posted to the forum, right? John_in_b....not trying to take anything away from you, but thought maybe I could give you more time for what you do so well....as I don't have many resources to work from... |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: GUEST,John in Brisbane Date: 18 Jul 00 - 08:00 PM To All Volunteers Above (and to any lurkers who may want to do the same) - firstly, well done! The more the merrier!
A bit of history first - a couple of years back Alan produced his marvellous program to allow us to post tunes right here at the forum. Shortly after that I produced a list of naked lyrics for my own benefit (I used Excel to do the sorting) and sent it ti a couple of people including Alison. I subsequently re-jigged it after further updates and have been waiting for the April 2000 to do the same. MMario PLEASE FEEL FREE to create a new list and incorporate any new ideas such as the tunes now in Mudcat MIDIs. I tend to do new things at Mudcat to plug holes or more frankly to encourage others to have a go themselves. So go for it.
Ivan, I'm sure that your offer to translate from WAV to MIDI will be greatly appreciated. Speaking personally, I'm not happy with my own talents in that regard because keyboards aren't my forte (joke). Instead I'm working on taking the tune in my head directly to notation - but I've got a long way to go.
Joe, your advice above re NWC has left me a bit stunned, so I'll need to have a good think about it. What I will say right now is that the use of a proprietary PC only standard may be limiting for general use. As per another thread on this subject I'm working in background mode to convert SongWright lyrics and tunes to MIDI. The lyrics component is giving me the greatest amount of grief, but this concept is fairly easily transferable (I hope).
Important topic. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Jul 00 - 08:30 PM John, I don't think there is any move to make a proprietary format like Noteworthy a standard for the Digital Tradition. The problem is, right now there is no standard format in the computer world for music-plus-lyrics - and MIDI doesn't work very well on a number things, like the pickups notes at the beginning of a song. For now, the "standard" for Digital Tradition tunes is SongWright, which isn't available to most of us. I doubt that the Digital Tradition will change to a different lyrics-and-music standard until there is a standard format that really works and that is generally accepted. While it may seem strange to stick with something as obscure as SongWright, remember that we have been given permission to include a runtime version of the SongWright player with the Digital Tradition, so anybody who downloads the database can play the songs. If we used the MIDI-with-lyrics format, we wouldn't be able to do that. For submitting tunes, there is no standard - get it to us the best you can, and Dick will convert it to SongWright for the downloadable version and Max will convert it to MIDI for the online version. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Naemanson Date: 18 Jul 00 - 11:57 PM Wow! Thanks for all the good ideas. I have been up to my hips in work and play but I will put them to work when I get this crazy week out of the way. Once again, thanks for the help. Brett |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: John in Brisbane Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:15 AM Joe, thanks for the above. Just a couple of points though which I can't let pass without comment.
There are several 'standards' for integrating lyrics and music. I'll just spend a minute going through them if I may:
ABC - The ABC standard exists but there is currently some lack of agreement among the software developers as to its implementation. In some discussions over the last week most have recognised that this an area of priority for them.
NIFF - The standard is very comprehensive and the broad concepts are good, but it has yet to attract any commercial support. It would take adoption by Cakewalk or its ilk to ensure that it ever goes anywhere. MIDI - The MIDI standard to integrate lyrics has existed for quite some time, but developers have been slow to implement it. It's in the display and print routines of Melody Assistant, newer versions of Cakewalk, PowerTracks Pro, Anvil Studio, Nstation and a number of newer Media Players will display the lyrics Karaoke style using a standard lyric enriched MIDI file as input. For Mudcatters the freeware version of Midi Notate will very capably play and print the music with associated lyrics under each note.
I don't believe that the pick-up bars have much to with the MIDI standard per se. This question arose at the time when we were using Alan's program to submit tunes to the forum. By necessity Alan had to create his own standard for displaying the contents of MIDI files in text format and to be able to convert them back again. The conversion from cow to sausage mince worked just fine, but on occasions the reverse process did not always re-constitute the original cow. I'm sure that Alan could have cloned the cow perfectly if he had seen this as a dire need.
There IS a music plus lyrics standard, and the tools are now becoming freely available for us to turn the corner on this subject. End of rave. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jul 00 - 04:14 PM OK, John, I'll agree. There are standards. What I was trying to say is that there's a need for a universally accepted standard. Eight-track is a standard for recording music. Should we submit tunes in that format? End of re-rave... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: John in Brisbane Date: 19 Jul 00 - 08:25 PM Yes Joe, agreed(ish)! The one aspect that I'll keep an eye on is the degree to which lyrics can be seamlessly and painlessly transferred between formats (say MIDI to NWC and vv). Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 20 Jul 00 - 04:41 PM if anyone is interested there are currently 3874 songs in the DT listed as not having a tune. Some of these go to already posted tunes, and I am still in the process of identifying which are already on alan's site or in the forum. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 21 Jul 00 - 11:29 AM fwiw- have the list now...PM me if you are interested. have checked it against the midi page but not against the forum yet. down to about 3800 to go... |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: John in Brisbane Date: 22 Jul 00 - 01:09 AM Mario, if you manage to sift all all of the MIDITEXT tunes in the Forum I'll be the first in line to shout you a drink. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 24 Jul 00 - 09:07 AM I don't think I can sift them ALL, but will try to get a good chunk of them..... of course, Alan may find his mailbox bursting with midi's soon....*grin* The list is 125 pages long folkes, so this thread is goiing to be maintained "offline" unless you ask me to e-mail it to you... |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: IvanB Date: 24 Jul 00 - 11:43 AM MMario, did you get my PM? And, do you need help with the forum search? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 24 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM If you want to "claim" a letter to search the forum for the tune(or multiple letters) or whatever, I will gladly serve as a consolidator. Just posted a "Missing tunes wanted" thread which can serve as a clearing house and central repository. If you (or anyone finds a tune in the forum thats on the "missing" list, a link can be posted there. You should have a 125 page document sitting in your mailbox....*grin* |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jul 00 - 01:42 PM When you're looking for tunes, a good idea is to check the UTK Song Index to see if it's in one of their 1,500 songbooks. If they have the songbook, there's a good chance one of us has it, too. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Alan of Australia Date: 01 Aug 00 - 09:54 AM G'day, A note to Noteworthy Composer users: Joe's comments above about NWC files being useful to Dick also suggests sending NWC files to me. Actually, I'd prefer to just get the MIDIs as I've never needed to use NWC. You can send me MIDIs and Joe the NWC files if you have the files in that format.
Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Aug 00 - 02:44 PM Here are the latest instructions for posting tunes. There's an effort about to collect tunes for all the Digital Tradition songs. The missing tunes thread (click) has information about tunes that are needed, and about tunes that have been posted in other locations. The Mudcat Cafe has over 23,000 threads posted so far, so we have to take some care to ensure that we don't lose tunes and lyrics that are posted.
I hope that clears up what we need. I'm sure Dick Greenhaus will drop in from time to time to give us further instructions. If you post your tunes here in this thread or send them to Mudcat MIDIs or to Dick, it will make it much easier for us to make use of them. Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:47 PM refresh - hard to believe it's been almost three years! |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:50 PM Sorcha said: Joe, you forgot all the tunes at the Alternate Digital Tradition site . I have never had trouble getting into it. I tried to go to it, but was told I didn't have permission to get into it. How does one get permission? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: But where do you get the tune? From: MMario Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:53 PM http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/ Yet Another Digital Tradition I think the link has changed since then UncleDave - it has been three years. try the new one in this post. |
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