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The Truth IS Out There - Now
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 21 Jul 00 - 08:04 AM Praise, that was a temperate response to my intemporate blast in your direction, and in the spirit of the last posting, I'd be happy to take you up on it if you can be bothered. It was Moonchild's post near the top that had really inflamed me, but I had decided to ignore that one on the bsis that it was a parting shot. (As it happens, she hung around to send me a gratuitous personal message anyway, so what the hell?) |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST,Andy mööer Date: 21 Jul 00 - 07:12 AM my gOD!!what on earth is going on in this place?? I've never heard that 'flaming 'expression before(other than in australian slang),but I can pretty well guess what it means.-a pathetic plea follows- 'can you ALL stay and can we not squabble SO much?'...Andy. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Escamillo Date: 21 Jul 00 - 05:39 AM Can't agree more, Shambles. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: The Shambles Date: 21 Jul 00 - 04:58 AM If the basis of the way this place works, is not immediately apparent and needs to be explained or tested, then the poster is not in the right place.
I think that it is sad, that far more attention, time and accommodation is spent in indulging (some) of those that behave badly, and thus encouraging them (and others), to continue, than appreciation is paid to those who do not. More importantly those who probably COULD not.
Maybe that is the reason, and the resulting loss of trust the forum does not return to where it was, prior to these spats?
Attention seeking bad behaviour in children, if rewarded, is not often to their long-term benefit and usually done at the expense of other less demanding souls.
I think it is important that the damage to individuals and to their sense of trust, should first be recognised and not be undermined, to any extent, by those who do not feel that damage.
Whatever sympathy I may have with the perpetrator, I will first consider the effect of the victims of that crime. However, the most damage of this juvenile silliness is done, to all on The Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:09 PM Fionn, I would be happy to address your question in personal messages if you are interested in a mutually open discussion. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:06 PM Michael K, you deserve a lot of respect for that brave posting at the top. And as you may have anticipated, it could be that it will be the devout souls who preach forgiveness who turn out to be least forgiving. And that first posting from Homeless was another brave one. The afterthought explanation it brought from Bert, about why we are all harmed ny Michael K's antics, was just frankly ridiculous. When I see an anonymous posting, I just assume it's from someone outside the Cat. And if the rest of you want to think it's from me, I couldn't care less. If you're going to label your postings "personal opinion" (I mean what the hell else is it going to be?) don't take on to speak for me as well as yourself. Like Jed Marum, I never see the flamers, just the endless, navel-contemplating discussions about them. I have certainly been tempted to post a flame or two myself however, and am differentiated from MK in this respect only to the extent that in the end I usually couldn't be bothered. And curiously enough, I have to say that it is probably Kat who has tempted me most, not least in this thread, where having proudly paraded her loathing, she then sanctimoniously counsels us to "let it go." Kat, if you gain from Mudcat on the music side, settle for that and ignore the rest. If you want us all to think you're wonderful because you wallow in some kid learning to ride a bike, you're here for the wrong reason and you may get hurt some more. (No offence to the kid, but is this really the place?) Lastly a question. What does Praise mean by "essentially blasmphemous" postings, and why feel compelled to "rebuke" them? Would it not be more constructive to challenge the various religious beliefs in the name of which so much suffering has been caused, and some of which linger on, to this day? |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST,Missing In Action Date: 20 Jul 00 - 08:47 PM Moonchild and Katlaughing both responded with real emotion it is true. What should tell you that the problem with Michael K. might amount to something more than a little flaming fun is the obvious absence of postings here by Rick Fielding, Catspaw, Peter T., Bonnie, and some others named by Michael K. Take notice before you decide to "lighten up." |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Ed Pellow Date: 20 Jul 00 - 08:16 PM Michael, If you're still reading this: - you fucked up (haven't we all) - you had the guts to admit it (lots of us don't) - I'd be more than happy to meet you again in this virtual place, or in person (you've done nothing really bad) I hope you'll come back To those who think Michael has somehow ruined this site forever, I'll quote McGrath: "Lighten up" Ed |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST,Rat Bastard Date: 20 Jul 00 - 01:07 PM You may be expecting too much of mankind, unFortunato. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Fortunato Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:02 AM A person's words ought to improve upon silence. (But go ahead, give it a shot) Tabla Raza. Fortunato |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Willie-O Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:49 AM I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread. Train wreck fascination I guess. Lacking any new thoughts I'm going to repeat something I said many months ago when some jackass was falsely posting as katlaughing. What gives the Mudcat value to many of us is that it is not a "virtual community". It is a REAL community made up of real flesh and blood people with opinions, friendships, dislikes, and feelings. There is no other kind of community, in my opinion. People who post anonymous bizarre graffiti, cowardly personal attacks, or who hijack the identities of others, if confronted usually mutter about cliques, and how people should consider postings on their own merits, not because of who said them. Usually these mutterings are integrated with more personal attacks, which makes it hard to take them seriously as advocacy of "the disembodied idea". For me, at least half the value of any posting is in knowing who it comes from; their location, background, musical tastes and other personal information they have chosen to reveal. Because there are no disembodied ideas; if I want something like that I'll look in an encyclopedia. I feel I've made friends here and want that opportunity to continue for all. There is an extraordinary freedom of expression here, due to Max's hands-off philosophy. I think that's great and it passes the responsibility on to the users of the forum to do so in a civil manner. Own up to your own opinions and you can have just about any you like. Michael I'm not about to waste my time looking up what TTCM said six months ago...but it took some guts to come clean here. (Wish a couple others would do so, or just get lost.) Max has officially proclaimed you "Rat Bastard of the Week" (the Week, not the month or year) and remarked that he'll forgive but not forget. I think you need to do some time in the wilderness. Go now and sin no more. Maybe come back later. (I did like your contributions to "gigs from hell", and as an Ontario musician I have a sneaking suspicion I have met you sometime). Willie-O
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Escamillo Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:09 AM LABEL END_RANT ; I'm relatively a newcomer, and am grateful to Mudcatters for their help on music and their invaluable friendship. But some things upset me (rarely), so please let me write this as a program: IF NOT WILLING_TO_READ_THIS THEN GOTO END_RANT ;
from Michael K:
2)Frankly it never ever occurred to me, that one person could have such a profound influence on the tone and atmosphere of this Forum, (and I do not want to carry the notoriety and responsibility of it any further.)
5)There is enough garbage on here already. (no pun intended.)
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Ebbie Date: 20 Jul 00 - 03:27 AM I'm posting part of what I wrote Michael K in a pm, mostly because it is important to me to recognize in myself the main reason I reacted so violently to ttcm's posts. Had I been 'disinterested', he couldn't have upset me. "You never hurt me but I was terribly upset at the barrage of nasty messages you addressed to other members- until I stopped reading posts by any flamers. Which means, of course, that what I was upset by was my response not the impetus itself. We all want to think well of ourselves and when we flare in outrage we can't. In my opinion, the worst effects of what you have done (other than your own loss of personal friendships) are the resultant loss of trust on the 'Cat and the role modeling and encouragement you have given other mean spirits. I've now read all the posts submitted by ttcm, et al, and most of the posts by Michael K; I hope you stay. As Michael K, you have valid opinions, and in time this episode will be forgotten or absorbed into the fabric of the Mudcat. In the meantime, your voice will be a reminder to us that we all need forgiveness from time to time. Best wishes. Ebbie" |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: flattop Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:55 AM The truth is always out there somewhere but we only get glimpses of it as we stumble around in the dark. Yes Michael, I was wrong in much of my speculation. You fooled me too. I was never a target but I still feel a little crazy from trying to play Where's Waldo? Maybe just foolish, not crazy. I can only try to imagine how ill at ease the people who were stalked felt. They have my full sympathy. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST,Praise, I logged out and no cookie just now Date: 19 Jul 00 - 08:46 PM But Kevin, All you need to do is stick with being yourself and doing what is right according to what you know is true. The rest rolls off, in time, if you just do that. Or there'd be no surviving what people do to each other (in the name of whatever they think they are doing)! And this is supported by the gift of discernment, which you can always lean on too. Funny, I am here as Guest, etc, but I bet you know it's me. Because we have taken the trouble to get to know each other just a bit, and thus we sometimes can speak to (and sometimes can hear) each other's hearts. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jul 00 - 08:29 PM It's just occurred to me - earlier in the thread I reacted about being called "a bully" by harpgirl, and there were a couple more exchanges with oter people apparently involving her.
But for all I know it wasn't her at all. And even if someone comes on posting as GUESTharpgirl and says it was, there's no way of knowing it's not some joker libelling her when she's not around the 'Cat for some personal reason.
And that's the damage this kind of stuff does to us. That, and trapping people into carrying a grudge. Life's heavy enough at times already without carrying grudges as well. Last grudge broke the camel's back. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Jul 00 - 07:14 PM I don't have a lot of time to frame a full answer and I may say more tomorrow. Right now I think the most I can say accurately is that none of the flames themselves did me a bit of harm either as they occurred or as I thought about them later. The reason for this is that they were based so completely on stereotypes having little to do with me, that they just were amusing. (I mean, exclusively, the ones directed at me, and I do not know about nor understand the depths other people were driven to.) So I was aiming for actual communication with TTCM, and until one particular day came when he went right over the edge, we had almost begun to have that capacity. But then the flames got really toxic toward other people, and I found it necessary to rebuke essentially blasphemous posts... it just is not OK in my framework to stand by and not address that. So there is another regret. I would have preferred the real communication. But there were two really bad days. And they hurt me in a place I never displayed here, not attacks on my Christianness at all, as had been most of the flames. The first was when someone whose past Mudcat experiences (pre-February, when I joined) are still a complete mystery to me, lashed out at me entirely unsolicited in a personal message over something that was of absolutely no concern to that individual. And I will never know if that was actually from the signed sender or if someone had hijacked a cookie, and the damage has not yet been undone so it makes any sense. The other, much more hurtful, was when someone ELSE, a new friend, who had been taking the brunt of the flames for a long time, jumped with both feet inbto a misunderstanding with me in the personal pages that was so unexpected, given the lovely start we'd made, that I just cried for hours. And that is still not cleared up either. So the problem I am having is that here is someone who wants to apologize, in part to me personally, but who does not yet seem to understand the real nature of the damage done. IMNSHO, the real damage was how the bad atmosphere came between people who meant to be friends, or at least not enemies. And you know what-- TTCM would learn more about that, and have a better chance of growing from it as a person, if he stayed right here, as himself, openly, and grew himself some positive relationships, and addressed the damages within those. I invite you to that, with myself. So I have decided that the best thing I can do is continue communicating with Michael K, outside the Forum, if he is interested in that. I remember finding him a pretty interesting fellow when I first joined, and I will go see what sort of personal messages we exchanged cuz I think there were a few. And you know, apologies and catharsis and all these refelctions from all of us are nice, but we do not actually know who TTCM was for sure. We could spend another couple of months going around and around--- "No, it was ME!" "NO!! ME!!!" "It was HIM!" "Sometimes it was...... YOU!!!" Good Lord. Re-read The Crucible. I just don't need to go there, does anyone else? I mean, we can play detective, but what difference would it really make? The only direction that ever really makes any sense is forward, even if the wounds are still oozing. Yes, sometimes we have to retrace our steps to get to a solid fresh starting point, but then do we not need to head on forward? I will say it again-- There is just no substitute for really getting to know another human being. And I will add, this time, that I cannot recall that effort ever having been wasted effort, no matter the result. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Bert Date: 19 Jul 00 - 06:03 PM Kevin, the problem I have with the unnamed guests is that they are probably people we know under a different names and they don't have enough courage in their own convictions to give their names. If 'they' don't even beleive in what they say, then why should we waste any time even reading their posts. I just skip over them. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 19 Jul 00 - 05:29 PM The entire editorial board accepts responsibility for the Editorials (which is why they are not individually signed) and that is certainly a tangible entity (usually it is excessively tangible) And if you really want to know, the paper in question, and they will tell you who scripted the editorial. (Will I get flamed for this comment?) |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST,talking to McGrath Date: 19 Jul 00 - 05:11 PM McGrath, I understand your view of anonymous guests in many ways, and the fact that you can't tell which (if any) of the recent posts on this thread, you can attribute to me. I would however say that (assuuming you read them) non of the editorials in the broadsheet press are directly attributable to anyone. I read these and choose to agree or disagree, dependent on the arguement, in the full knowledge that I'll never know who wrote any individual piece. Threads are nothing more than discussions, arguements or whatever. If a 'guest' makes a good point, surely you can reply by saying that you agreed with the arguement, rather than agreeing with the person?(or visa versa) A totally anonymous discussion here might actually prove quite interesting!
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jul 00 - 04:23 PM "A different guest" - well that's enough of an identity form the time being to allow mne to reply without breaking my firm decision not to pay any regard to unadorned GUESTS. Except maybe count them.
I've explained why, and I don't want to repeat the reasons. Essentially it's because an unadorned GUEST posting is graffiti, and if you find yourself starting a conversation with a wall, that's not a good sign. And most of the time unadorned GUESTs don't seem to be trying to make "fairly valid points". There are exceptions, but just check it out.
Presumably there are reasons why people like to post as unadorned GUEST without even what seems to me the elementary courtesy of a minimal pseudonym at the end, such as "a different guest". But I don't think these reasons can include self-effacement or modesty, or wishing to help other people. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case someone please show me.
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jul 00 - 04:20 PM "A different guest" - well that's enough of an identity form the time being to allow mne to reply without breaking my firm decision not to pay any regard to unadorned GUESTS. Except maybe count them.
I've explained why, and I don't want to repeat the reasons. Essentially it's because an unadorned GUEST posting is graffiti, and if you find yourself starting a conversation with a wall, that's not a good sign. And most of the time unadorned GUESTs don't seem to be trying to make "fairly valid points". There are exceptions, but just check it out.
Presumably there are reasons why people like to post as unadorned GUEST without even what seems to me the elementary courtesy of a minimal pseudonym at the end, such as "a different guest". But I don't think these reasons can include self-effacement or modesty, or wishing to help other people. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case someone please show me.
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 19 Jul 00 - 04:18 PM I mention this all only to point out that there is much less activity than there had been before this all began, and to bolster my point that many people who had been very active and contributed a lot, stopped, because of the attacks. Personally, I have always tried to respond to any questions that I could that came up related to music theory. It isn't always so easy to answer those questions, and it sometimes takes a while to write the answers out in a way that is complete and understandable. There came a point when I was subject to some personal attacks, and I realized that when I was trying to help people, all I was doing was opening myself up to more attacks, so I just started let questions go unanswered-- I wasn't the only one to do that, either--
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 19 Jul 00 - 04:12 PM I mention this all only to point out that there is much less activity than there had been before this all began, and to bolster my point that many people who had been very active and contributed a lot, stopped, because of the attacks. Personally, I have always tried to respond to any questions that I could that came up related to music theory. It isn't always so easy to answer those questions, and it sometimes takes a while to write the answers out in a way that is complete and understandable. There came a point when I was subject to some personal attacks, and I realized that when I was trying to help people, all I was doing was opening myself up to more attacks, so I just started let questions go unanswered-- I wasn't the only one to do that, either--
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 00 - 04:04 PM I guess, Such generalisations are by definition, wrong. Such narrow minded comments are perhaps part of the reason why some of us get pissed off and make us write in small letters |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST,I guess Date: 19 Jul 00 - 03:57 PM As has been pointed out, the behaviour on Newsgroups is far worse, and I suppose Mudcatters should be happy that considering the number of people now here, the constantly angry ones are still a tiny minority. There really are two separate entities operating here, a large group of decent polite people who ask and answer questions, discuss even volatile issues with intelligence and courtesy, and in general, have satisfaction in their lives. You can't imagine how that annoys a small angry minority who thrive on conflict. Thrive is not the proper term, they NEED conflict to survive each day. One of the angriest people on this forum gleefully welcomed back a presence who has become legendary for his sheer meanness. No uglier self-portrait could be painted.That person's anger, self-loathing, and future intent here, was made perfectly clear by those few words. One ally leaves, another reappears. We must know that these angry people will NOT go away. Anonymous posts on a very tolerant site may be the last place that their behaviour is tolerated. Len E. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 00 - 03:55 PM McGrath, I know your somewhat obsessive in your dislike of 'guest' threads - and perhaps with good reason. It might be nice, however, if you addressed some of the (to my mind) fairly valid points that these guests made, rather than just moaning about their lack of appellation A different guest |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jul 00 - 03:50 PM Five "GUEST" posts so far in this thread - now would that be five different people each posting once? Or one person posting five times? Or one person posting once and another person posting four times> Or... |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 00 - 03:30 PM M Ted The nature of the threads that "should" be in the mudcat are purely a personal preference. None of us can, or should wish to assume, that we are 'right' and that our individual take on what mudcat should be is somehow correct. You mention that some threads only have a few replies over a few days whereas in the past such threads might have 20 replies within the hour. There are others who wish that threads didn't have so many replies and yearn for the 'good old days' (whenever they were), when the lack of quantity was (supposedly) replaced by an increased quality. There are many others, and this is where MIchael fell foul, who are annoyed by the fact that mudcat has become more of a general chatroom, with a small 'clique' of regulars. Not really for me to say who is right... |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 19 Jul 00 - 03:13 PM People have asked what the damages are, or could possibly be, given that it is the internet--The damages are that people stop being involved, and they leave. If you look at the activity level in this group, you will note that the roster is long only because there are many old threads that have been refreshed, and there are many threads that hang on because they pick up one or two new posts over the period of a few days. Not like it used to be, where a new thread often had twenty posts attached in an hour, and you could sign on several times a day and still not catch all the discussions. There are also certain kinds of threads that are disappearing, the kind where people open up and talk about personal issues--people won't do that after they see someone get flamed by someone who thinks that the death of a family member or a divorce, or disabilities and chronic medical problems are a great target for crude humor-- If you think that those threads aren't important, remember that many of the members are geographically isolated, and there are not a few others who are shut-ins, for one reason or another--this is a welcome link to the outside for them-- Mostly though, this is only the on-line face of a larger music community, and that when people are alienated here, they are likely to withdraw a bit from the live music scene as well--and it isn't just that they stop going to concerts and group participation events, they stop their own efforts to make those events happen.
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:37 PM If nothing else comes out of this, gargoyle won't keep being irrationally blamed for every flame. Next time you'll all be thinking "I bet it was TTCM"... You're so open minded here |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:32 PM Bert, Assuming he does that, I hope you'll forgive him - grudges cause misery for both parties Life really is too short for that |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Bert Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:22 PM Homeless, the harm he caused was to take away the trust that we had on this forum. As long as he remained anonymous there were other members who were suspected of the mischief. As long as we didn't know who it was, that suspicion fell equally on ALL Mudcat Members, even you. It's the trust that we have here that allows you to reply to Moonchild and kat and express your opinions in a reasonable manner even when you disagree with them. What Michael K. did was to betray that trust and to make vicious personal attacks on MY FRIENDS under a cloak of anonymity. I can well understand how they might not feel inclined to forgive him. OK, so he fessed up. I hope he also had the guts to send a personal message to everyone he attacked and apologise to them individually. Bert (personal opinion) |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:18 PM Songster Bob, You make, I think some very good points. However your analogy of the 'mudcat' being a family is perhaps part of the problem. To the casual user, there is a 'family', which can all too easily seem like a clique. (in jokes and all) Given this, it's not hard to understand how those on the outskirts of this family, might get pissed with feeling left out, and resort to anger (aka flaming) The fact that this happens as little as it does is the main reason I still come here. McGrath, The best way to ensure that people do something, is to tell them not too. I'm suprised at your last comment. I thought you had more sense than to assume for yourself the 'moral voice' of this forum. Guest (sadly posting as one - but scared of the likely vitriol if he didn't) |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Homeless Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:46 PM "Ignore history and you are doomed to repeat it." Based on some of what is posted in this thread, I don't believe I understand the full impact of what has happened. I would like to understand so that I can learn a lesson from it. "Let it go" - it seems to me that if you refuse to forgive someone *ever* then you are not letting go. "Let us all move on" - Move on to where? Around in a circle so that the same kind of thing is repeated in a year or so? I'd rather learn from the situation so as to prevent it in the future. Personal Messages to me are welcome and encouraged if anyone can explain to me the destruction and harm that was caused to the Forum, or if you don't want to expose your hurt in a public thread. Or if you just want to tell me to go take a flying leap. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:37 PM Please, let it go and let us all move on.
All. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Songster Bob Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:32 PM Seems to me the difference in reaction to his and others' flaming is the difference between newsnet and this forum. On newsgroups, flaming is a way of life. Visit many if not most newsgroups and you'll see more than a little of it, only a small, small portion of which is entertaining or funny (though some of the posters think they are the new Robin Williams or Henny Youngman). This forum is a lot more like a club or family, and has norms and expectations quite different from the typical "it's just newsnet, it doesn't exist" philosophy. When someone comes here using manners appropriate to "there," we get upset. It reminds me of a few songwriters' lyric boards, where anonymous and obnoxious folks discovered that they could savage earnest and vulnerable beginning writers with no consequence to themselves. Some of the boards had to resort to constant watching by the board keepers, which, being a free site, meant lots more work than the "payback" deserved, and some boards folded up, at a loss to the regulars. It's the use of "outside" manners "inside" that gets us upset, and it's something which we have little control over, other than "community action" and comdemnation of the perpetrators. Posts can be and have been removed, but it shouldn't take that level of vigilance. What we need is a universal response when someone violates the mores of this, our clubhouse/parlor. Something like we use with kids: "Indoor voices, please!" Or "Company manners, now!" And, once this response is given, the thread is ended. No other response, no flame in return, just ignoring the troll, the "nikulturni chelovyek," the farter-in-church. Ostracize him/her/them. Serves 'em right! Don't know that this would work, but it's a thought. Nothing keeps a flame war going like responses, earned or not, and nothing stops one like lack of fuel. Bob Clayton |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: katlaughing Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:19 PM Kevin, I respect you, your music, and your opinion on here, but singling out the people who were harmed by him and castigating us for a few harsh words will go a lot further in keeping this going than us expressing how we feel. You do not know the whole of it, not from what I went through, nor any others. Please, let it go and let us all move on. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:19 PM It strikes me that some of you good people take this place _far_ too seriously. Yes, Michael has said some mean and uncalled for things. Hands up everyone who has never done that. The response of those who have been 'hurt' strikes me as being somewhat over the top. To _never_ forgive someone, or _never_ trust them again, is a big thing to say. Forever is a long time. Did Michael cause you long-term physical or emotional scars, or con you out of large amounts of money? Did he do anything that will have a long lasting adverse effect on your life? If he did, I can understand your anger, if not, forgive the guy! He did wrong and had the guts to admit it in his own name - something which very few people here would do. Let those without 'cyber-sin' cast the first stone. If you are really honest with yourselves, I expect to wait a long time before the next reply. Guest (who having posted as a guest half expects to be called a coward) |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Homeless Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:17 PM Bert - I have to disagree on one of the points you made above. Even tho you explicitly expressed that this was your "(personal opinion)" you stated that "you caused an immense amount of harm to ALL mudcatters." I don't believe that TTCM caused me any harm at all. When I would see a post by TTCM I had one of two reactions - either ignore it completely, or read the content and ignore the vehicle. Either way, I don't believe that I was harmed. Going a bit beyond that, I don't believe that anyone can be harmed unless they allow themselves to be harmed. I lived with a verbally and emotionally abusive wife for 9 years. The first couple years were absolute hell, until I realized I didn't have to be hurt. From that point on, when subjected to her ranting, I just considered the source and didn't allow her statements to have a significant impact on me. Moonchild - I believe I read a post from you in another thread (I think I'm remembering this correctly) where you said you were not a "victim." I've understood victim to mean "one who suffers ill from another's actions." While you don't say in your post at the top of the thread that you were hurt, your vehemence at Michael leads me to think that you were. If you were hurt, then (to my line of reasoning) you would be a victim. Can you reconcile these seemingly conflicting viewpoints for me? Or is my reasoning or definition incorrect? My questions stem from an honest desire for understanding, they are not meant snidely. Kat - you too seem rather vehement. I can understand if you have anger since you were one of the prime targets of many flames. However, I would like to know your specific views on the harm that was done to the MudCat. If you have already explained them and I missed the point, a pointer to the thread in which they appeared is all that I ask. Personally, other than causing some people to leave the forum (which seems to happen on a regular basis for a number of reasons), I don't see that there was much permanent harm done (maybe I just missed something, or am more cynical than most people). |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:11 PM I suppose the worst damage done is that expressions like "the people he left lying in his wake of destruction" can get used.
The whole thing was irritating, even upsetting. But that's the kind of language you might use about a drunk driver who ran into a bus queue. You might even use it of someone who wrote particularly damaging poison pen letters to vulnerable people.
But to talk that way in this context is over the top. If it goes on like this there's a real danger it'll build up and it'll do as much damage to this place as the original nonsense did.
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Bert Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:23 PM Michael, you said "It was my intention to be sarcastic and somewhat funny and entertaining." The rally sad thing is that if you had posted under your own name, most of the stuff WOULD have been funny. We can take criticism and BS from someone we know, but it hurts when it's from some anonymous, gutless, shithead. I think you got of lightly from Moonchild and the others that you hurt. I would have given you a hell of a lot more grief. Personally, given time, I may be able to forgive Michael K, but none of those alter egos had better appear again. You'll have to go on a one by one basis to get forgiveness from everyone else. And I mean 'everyone' because you caused an immense amount of harm to ALL mudcatters. Moonbaby, I think your comments were very restrained, you have no reason to leave or even feel the slightest bit bad. Bert (personal opinion) |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: kendall Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:00 PM You cant unbake the bisquets |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: paddymac Date: 19 Jul 00 - 11:51 AM I guess we all like to think the best of things and people, but I agree with Clinton - it is the internet and all things should be treated with a degree of healthy cynicism. Besides, where else but mudcat can creative people play with a typo and turn it into the cyber-print version of slurred speech? I'm in stitches: "ostradized - ostarized - ostracised". I had visions of flamers and flamees whirling around in some sort of cyber-spa hurling insults and tears at each other until they exhausted the supply of whatever they were drinking or ingesting. Sort of reminded me of that bumper sticker: "pray for whirled peas". Sorry if I don't take this as seriously as some folks. Maybe I'm just in a sillier-than-usual mood today. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: L R Mole Date: 19 Jul 00 - 11:47 AM Well, not having been yet muddy when this all seems to have gone on, I'm of three minds:1)ah, hell, let's forget it; 2)be careful of these nice folks I like, though I only know them through this disembodied but friendly medium;3)as Alan Stuart says to David Balfour in "Kidnapped", "...there have been things said here that canna be unsaid." I think I'll be quiet awhile this afternoon.Then play. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 19 Jul 00 - 11:18 AM Ummm... I got flamed?? Dang! I musta missed it!! LOL!!
Now ya wanna come down off the cross, we could use the wood for instruments... I think you give your opinions too much credit here... It is, after all, just the internet... Anoye who takes it that seriously may be a little skewed... And I realise that the above is just -MY- opinion, ya! LOL!! No harm, no foul Michael! Get over it, and sit yerself down here with the rest of us... [~` |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: SINSULL Date: 19 Jul 00 - 09:55 AM Michael, I am new to Mudcat and frankly don't understand all the implications of your apology. I have reviewed some of the less than kind posts you chose to leave anonymously. Not pretty. But if you are truly sorry for what you did, you will have the courage to either stay or come back (as yourself) and use your talents to make amends. Without that, you are simply laying a guilt trip on the people you hurt in the first place. - "Poor Michael is going to pay the ultimate price. He can't play here anymore." And somehow it's the fault of the people on Michael's list of marks for making him do it in the first place (by their neediness, their inferior talent, their superior talent, etc.). SINSULL, now Mary |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:44 AM Michael, as TTCM and others, was neither the first, nor the only, and maybe not even the most frequent offender, and, even though he was hiding behind a made up name, it was the same name, or group of names, and you got to know what to expect. The damaage is not so much from what was said, or even how cruel any individual post might have been, the damage comes from the psychological climate created by the repeated barrages of anonymous abuse, and finally, just by the threat of it. Kat is right about the damage--more than anyone can see, and it is felt far heyond these threads--
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Mbo Date: 18 Jul 00 - 10:23 PM Check out the threads around March 20th or so. Mudcat was a veritable war zone. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: JedMarum Date: 18 Jul 00 - 10:17 PM In one or two of his books Joseph Wambaugh had a character called "Wadda ya mean Dean" because his name was Dean and he never seemed to fully understand what was going on around him, bright as he was, and he was always asking for an explanation from folks who were too involved to bother with an answer. Well that's who I feel like around this issue. I keep hearing about all this bad behaviour that's happened, and I haven't seen any ... am I thick or just reading the wrong threads? |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Jon Freeman Date: 18 Jul 00 - 09:56 PM kat, I for one am well aware of the fact that their have been varying degrees of hurt in this whole business and I do not consider myself to have been personally injured which does make it easier for me to forgive although I am distressed that some people were really hurt, real damage was done to the forum and particularly that this did involve people who considered themselves friend of his. I have made my position clear, I neither ask Michael to leave or stay but state that I would be happy to see him start afresh. I appreciate that others may feel differently and do so with justifcation. I do however feel that forgiveness is a personal thing and people should be free make that descsion with out attracting criticism from others. Jon |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: katlaughing Date: 18 Jul 00 - 09:30 PM I realise it is the better nature of the Mudcat to rise above and forgive, BUT I cannot believe how many are falling all over themselves to get this guy to stay. Especially without much seeming regard for the people he left lying in his wake of destruction. There is much more that has gone on than meets the eye in this thread. Much more damage to individuals than most of you will ever know, recently and in the past. For any of you who are fairly new to the Mudcat, I would invite you to go back to January and start reading some of the TTCM posts; they were vicious and sickening with absolutely no regard for the people who were flamed. LeeJ is right, the level of trust has diminished forever at the Mudcat because of the terrible crap which MK has wreaked. I for one hope he really does leave and never comes back, but I also have a hard time believing he will even do that. I trust nothing which he says. kat |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Lonesome EJ Date: 18 Jul 00 - 08:08 PM 12 Step Mudcat Redemption Program? Yep, Michael, we're real out here. As I told you when you were TTCM, the best thing about this Forum is the lack of pretense, the honesty. I think you did damage to the level of trust here, damage that has caused a change in the atmosphere of honest give and take in this environment. Things that are very special can also be quite fragile. Maybe you would agree with me now. I also think it took a lot of guts to come out from under the hood, and take it like a man, like you are doing now. I, for one, hope you don't leave. And Moony, I hope you stay too. You have every right to be pissed, and to express it. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:43 PM If I got flamed, I didn't get burnt, so apology accepted. I can't remember it anyway.
If that's the worst thing you've done in your time, Michael, you'll do.
Stick around. For one thing, it's handy to have someone with a few insights into what gets people doing stuff like that, because there'll be others around.
No Ostrich Eyes here I say! Not for moonchild, not for Michael K. Not for other people either.
We are living in a world where all sorts of terrible things happen every day, on the big stage, and in our personal lives. The spats that mess up this place from time to time are a nuisance at worst. They matter, as quarrels between friends always matter. But they aren't life and death. "Offer them up" is what they used to say. Good advice.
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: The Shambles Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:35 PM Lets keep on with the modesty OK? |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Bill D Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:26 PM I deduced many weeks ago that Michael K was one of the anon posters who were stirring things up...but, lacking absolute proof, I said nothing. It is sad that a talented guy should have gotten so far into that game that it came to this. I am not sure why he would 'confess', instead of just stopping, since it might have been easier to go on and participate, but if the bit about conscience is true, he must feel VERY foolish... yep...this place DOES have quite sense of community, though, it seems, it does not mean exactly the same to everyone. I guess that it is becoming frighteningly clear how easy it is to allow the darker sides of ourselves to escape when 'almost' total anonimity is possible. I remember halloween parties of years ago when people did amazing things when they were 'in costume' with hidden identities. That is one reason I did NOT think up a cute nom-de-plume for myself in here... I will make NO requests to either Michael K or Moonchild to go OR stay...it is a personal choice, and I can cope with it either way... |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:23 PM Hey, Michael, are you the one who posted all those idiotic chords requests on January 31? Gee, I hated dealing with that one... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Irish sergeant Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:07 PM Michael: I don't know you and I theefore won't comment on your need to apologize. You never "flamed " me. I think your leaving is rather drastic penance however. To quote Burl Ives in Cat on a hot tin roof, "If you did it, don't do it again." MoonChild, I do hope you'll remain with us and continue to share you wit and opinions with the rest of us. With kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Sorcha Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:56 PM First response on my part--Well, I'll be damned. 2nd response--Jenny, don't go, please. 3rd response--Don't either of you go. We need you both. You don't need to. It's OK, at least with me. I am just amazed that TTCM is out..........wow. I, too, have mellowed some lately. Have gotten to where I can take most things with a grain of salt, and laugh if need be. I think Jenny and I have had some misunderstandings in the past, but I at least am over that. This is, after all, HOME, and HOME is, "when you have to go there, they have to take you in." att: Robert Frost, I think.
Please stay, we need you both. Michael, it is OK if you are our concience, just do it in the same name without getting personal. Every village needs one, after all. OK, I am opening Sorcha's Bar and Grill, and the first round/meal is on the house!! |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: katlaughing Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:50 PM It is a start, but one that will never be enough to regain any trust there may have been, as afar as I am concerned. Moonchild, Harpgirl and I agree for once...you are not being ostracised. Hopefully this will begin a healing for you and the rst of us at the Mudcat. katwhoisnotlaughingatthemoment |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: JedMarum Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:45 PM hmmm, Michael I am feeling a bit of list envy! How come I never got flamed - or did I get flamed and I'm just too thick to know it? ;-) Somehow I missed most of the flaming. I've seen more messages about flaming than I've seen flaming! So maybe I just don't recognize it when I see it. I am sorry to see you go. I truly enjoyed your music. Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Jon Freeman Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:43 PM I recently questioned the worth a public apology from a flamer/troller as I felt that it was likely to start more paranoia but I am glad that this one has finally come out and I do hope that it does put and end to a lot of suspiscion, speculation and general bad feeling and I think it was quite brave of you to confess. I must admit I am a little bit surprised at my name being on the list as I can't remember feeling personally offended by the posts under the names mentioned but maybe I did but I see no point in looking back to check what has been said. Perhaps the hardest part for me to accept is that you obviously did betray the trust of people like Rick Feilding who I believe you know outside of this forum but as far as I am concerned, it is all over and any apology to me if due, is accepted and personally, I would be happy to see you start afresh here. Either way, I am sorry that it all happened and I wish you the best for the future. Jon |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Midchuck Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:40 PM Is it possible to ostracize someone while being ostracized by someone else? The possibilities are endless...we could have huge ostracism circles ending up back at the original ostracizor... Or maybe I'm not taking this orgy of hurt feelings as seriously as I should. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: GUEST,harpgirl Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:27 PM ...hey moon...let's go get ostarized tomorrow night! YOur friends will always love you.... |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: bbelle Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:24 PM I think you think too much of yourself in thinking that you, one person, could have any profound negative impact on this forum. As for what you perceive as conspiracy and lies ... you are full of shit ... accept and take responsibility for your actions. And, since you swore you never flamed me, you don't owe me any apology, unless of course you lied about that too. And since I will be totally ostradized after this post, I might as well leave with a bang ... fuck you, michael ... go to hell jenny |
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Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: Morticia Date: 18 Jul 00 - 06:16 PM Brave of you to own up, well done...wish it could have been different |
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Subject: The Truth IS Out There - Now From: MK Date: 18 Jul 00 - 05:59 PM There is sometimes a fine line between being multi-talented, and being somewhat of a lunatic. I am afraid I am a little of both. My current feelings about this Forum and it's inhabitants can be summed up here by something I wrote using an anonymous Handle. To some of you, the following may come as a surprise. To others it will merely confirm what you've suspected for quite a while. To those who are new to the Forum, this will probably seem irrelevant. (For the record, I have not been involved in any flaming activity whatsoever in the past several weeks, so anything that HAS been going on here in the interim should not be attributable to me.) You can of course think whatever you like. In light of the current mood and rumors, inuedendos, disinformation, and lies being spread, with my name repeatedly mentioned in the back alleys via personal messages, anonymous emails, etc.... for the sake of attempting to heal this Forum and returning it to a place that those I respect as well as the general populace here, can once again ENJOY, I have decided that the real healing should start from this moment forward. Frankly it never ever occurred to me, that one person could have such a profound influence on the tone and atmosphere of this Forum, (and I do not want to carry the notoriety and responsibility of it any further.) Over time I have grown to sincerely regret my past non-music related activities here. I realize now, that I have hurt a lot of people on this Forum from the tone of my flaming in the past. It was not my intention to create hurt. It was my intention to be sarcastic and somewhat funny and entertaining. Obviously I missed on all accounts. I offer no excuses as to why I did what I did but perhaps it was boredom; blowing off steam; perhaps it was immaturity; perhaps it was jealously towards the innate sense of community here; perhaps I grossly underestimated what this forum means to so many people; perhaps it was cowardice, perhaps it was a very misguided superiority complex ridiculing lesser talented but capable people...but the bottom line is I do have a conscience, and I know it was wrong. My past activities also created a spate of copy cat flamers, who helped and continue to contribute to the overall anarchy and morose nature of this Forum. I am probably responsible and repentant for much of this as well. Unfortunately there is little I can do personally to stop others from arm chair flaming. Maybe in time, if they allow the spirit of what this forum is about, to reach them, they too might feel differently. I can only speak for myself. Therefore in the interests of trying to do some small piece of good so that something positive can come from my departure, and at least make this a warmer, friendlier and safer place emotionally for many, (which it has always been --just needs a little nudge these days) I wish to publicly apologize to everyone on this forum and specifically to those I've listed below. I am truly sorry for all the hurt, sarcasm, interpretted maliciousness directed towards them, insensitivy and just downright shit I unloaded on this place. If I've left anyone's names off the list below, or, if you want to contact me privately and vent plasma in my direction (and keep it from cluttering the Forum which I think would be preferable) you can email me at ttcm_2000@yahoo.com. (This is a legit email address.) Profuse Apologies to: Rick Fielding... (for betraying his trust in me and for the loss of our friendship) ...and the following for all the pain, hurt, meaness and insensitivty directed towards these people as a result of past flames: Katlaughing Praise Mbo The Shambles Catspaw Amos McGrath Aine Ebbie Peter T. Bonnie Jon Freeman Gargoyle Moonchild Max Joe Offer Beanster Clinton Hammond ...and anyone who's names I've left off but should be on this list. Having said all this, I wish everyone here the best in all of their endeavors, and to keep singing, playing or just enjoying the music. I cannot stay. My credibility would never be the same, and far too much damage has been done to my reputation (mostly at my own doing) and I would be ashamed to show my face at any future Mudcatter gathering. I'm really not worthy of membership on this Forum. I will lurk only for a couple of days in case there are personal messages sent to me requiring responses or people just want to vent in my general direction. I will only discuss the issues addressed in this post and will only do so privately and not on the Forum. There is enough garbage on here already. (no pun intended.) Take care all, Michael K. a.k.a. TTCM Sir Arthur Conan and Doyle Uncle Milty Guest with Guitar In Hand and Dog By Side |
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