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Subject: The Bold Benjamin From: radriano Date: 19 Jul 00 - 11:42 AM There are several old threads mentioning this song but none of them had the information I was looking for. I have heard references to The Bold Benjamin as a shanty. Anyone know what kind of a shanty it was used as? Halyards, pumping, capstan, etc.? Except for the "oh, me boy, oh" at the end of the first line of each verse there is no clear chorus. The last line of each verse changes but I suppose if the song were well known the last line could easily be a chorus. Also, the second line of each verse is a repeat of the first line and that could be considered a chorus line as well. Regards to all, Radriano |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: sledge Date: 19 Jul 00 - 11:57 AM AS far as I have been able to find out its listed as a Ballard. The only referance I have is www.shanty.org, an excellent site. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: BOLD BENJAMIN From: sledge Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:32 PM Is this the one? BOLD BENJAMIN
Brave Admiral Cole he's gone to sea, oh, my boys, oh!
We sailed our course away for Spain, oh, my boys, oh!
We sailed out five hundred men, oh, my boys, oh!
And when we came to Blackwall, oh, my boys, oh!
Here's the mothers crying for their sons, oh, my boys, oh! Cheers Sledge |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: sledge Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:52 PM Available on a CD called "Blow the man down" available on Topic, serial number TSCD464, a new run of a recording made in the 60's. |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:33 PM Its' a traditional version of a late 17th century broadside ballad commencing "Captain Chilver's gone to sea". The ballad is entitled "The Benjamin's Lamentation for their sad loss at Sea, by Storms and Tempests", 15 verses. See ZN464 in the broadside ballad index at www.erols.com/olsonw |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:41 PM The traditional version is also in DT. |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:41 PM According to A.L. Lloyd (Penguin Book of English Folk Songs), C.H. Firth (Naval Songs and Ballads, Navy Records Society, 1908) thought that the song's unusual metrical form might suggest that it had been -or was based on- an early shanty, but I have no idea if there's any evidence. At any rate, it would probably be impossible to say what kind of shanty that may have been; though I suppose an expert might be able to make an educated guess, that's about all it could be. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 19 Jul 00 - 03:24 PM "The Granadeers' Rant", commencing "Captain Hume is bound to sea, Hey boyes, ho boyes" (ZN465) has the same verse form and meter. It was to be sung to "Hy! the brave Granadeers; Ho", and that is probably another title for the same tune as "The Benjamin's Lamentation". It's also late 17th century, but the broadside has no imprint, so it's not possible to say if it's earlier or later than "The Benjamin's Lamentation" [It is probably also in Firth's 'Naval Songs and Ballads' which I don't have. Firth's transcript of it is in Bodleian Firth MS c.17, fol. 19] |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: radriano Date: 19 Jul 00 - 03:37 PM Thanks for the posts, guys! Sledge, thanks for posting the lyrics. This is a song I've known about and have been singing for years so I didn't need the words but maybe someone else did. Malcolm, the reference you cited may be what I vaguely remembered. It's also true that sometimes people call any song about the sea a shanty. And Bruce, thanks for the reference. I love finding those old ballads, especially the longer ones. Radriano |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: radriano Date: 19 Jul 00 - 05:23 PM Bruce, I managed to get a copy of Captain Chilver's Gone to Seafrom the Bodleian Library site. My first attempts to find it using their search engine were fruitless but when I browsed the entries I found it under the title The Poor Benjamin, O. I can't understand why I didn't get any hits with Benjamin or Captain Chilver as a keyword. The title of the broadsheet is actually The Benjamin's Lamentation. Some of the middle verses are a little hard to read because of the smeared original but all sixteen verses are there. Radriano |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 19 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM That's the Douce collection copy. I noted under sources in my broadside ballad index that Wood, Rawlinson and Douce (17th century ones) collection ballads could be found on the Bodley Ballads website, but didn't repeat that for each ballad in these collections. The unbared traditional tune for "The Bold Benjamin" in JFSS #11, 1907 (that regularized in 'The Penguin Book..') is coded in the file COMBCOD2 on my website, and I can't find any known broadside ballad tune of the 17th century to match it. Anne Geddes Gilchrist in JFSS #11 suggested that the tune may have been adapted from the Admiral Benbow one that starts "Oh, we sailed to Virginia", also used for "A Virgin Unspotted". |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: radriano Date: 19 Jul 00 - 07:47 PM Thanks for the clarification, Bruce. It's interesting that the Douce broadside mentions one hundred men on board with four being lost at sea and the shorter song that most of us are more familiar with (the one in the DT) talks about five hundred men on board with only sixty-one surviving. Is this an example the exageration that happens when a tale is retold over and over? There are a couple of verses in the broadside that are almost entirely unreadable but I don't see any mention near the end of how many survivors there were. Of course, the Bold Benjamin mentions sailing for Spain to gain silver and gold while the broadside ballad talks about being bound for Venice. Did the change from destinations and the change from a captain to an admiral make for a more dangerous voyage and maybe a more interesting ballad? At any rate, I've always thought the Bold Benjamin was too short. You never find out what exactly happened to the ship. Radriano |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: sledge Date: 20 Jul 00 - 03:36 AM A book that might provide an insight into Naval life of the type described in the song try The Wooden World by N.A.M. Roger. It debunks a lot of myths but it also has a few surprises. Sledge |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: radriano Date: 20 Jul 00 - 11:36 AM Thanks, Sledge, I'll look it up. Radriano |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 20 Jul 00 - 10:36 PM I've had my troubles with the search by keyword on the Bodley Ballads website, too. Yesterday I could find nothing under 'Benjamin', but today I get several listings, two being our ballad here. The copy designated BDN in my broadside ballad index is also in the Bodleian, in the Don collection, and that (and the one in the Crawford collection are the earliest. Curiously, the late copy in the Douce collection is the only one that has the 16th verse (as the last). |
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Subject: RE: The Bold Benjamin From: ooh-aah Date: 10 Aug 03 - 03:22 AM Does any navy buff out there have any info on the actual incident or voyage commemorated in the song? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Bold Benjamin From: GUEST,ben Date: 15 Aug 16 - 04:25 AM my father spent twenty seven years in the rn and he also a folk singer. he reckons that it was an old Capstan shanty for when the crew were pulling anchor. hope this helps |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Bold Benjamin From: Lighter Date: 15 Aug 16 - 08:18 AM Other than the mere form (and some would say the phrase "My boys") there is no evidence at all that this excellent song was used as a shanty. No shanty collection includes it or any variant of it. It seems not to have been widely known in the 19th century in any case. Yes, it *could* have been used, by somebody, somewhere, as a shanty, but so could any song with a similar refrain pattern, including "The Two Sisters." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Bold Benjamin From: GUEST Date: 25 May 25 - 07:51 AM Should this thread not be merged with https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=52200 Asking for a friend. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Bold Benjamin From: Charley Noble Date: 25 May 25 - 10:48 AM Here's where I found the verses to "The Benjamin's Lamentations": Oxford Book of Sea Songs, pp. 44-46 The Benjamins' Lamentations for their sad loss at Sea, by Storms and Tempests Captain Chilver's gone to sea Hey, boys, O, boys, With all his company, hey, Captain Chilver's gone to sea With all his company In the brave Benjamin, O. Thirty guns this ship did bear Hey, boys, O, boys, They were bound for Venice fair, hey, Thirty guns this ship did bear And a hundred men so clear In the brave Benjamin, O. But by ill storms at sea Hey, boys, O, boys, Which bred our misery, hey, But by ill storms at sea Were drove o' of th' way In the brave Benjamin, O. We had more wind than we could bear, Hey, boys, O, boys, Our ship it would not steer, hey, We had more wind than we could bear, Our masts and sails did tear In the poor Benjamin, O. The first harm that we had Hey, boys, O, boys, I makes my heart so sad, hey, The first harm that we had We lost our fore-mast-head O the poor Benjamin, O. The seas aloud did roar Hey, boys, O, boys, We being far from shore, hey, The seas no favour shows Unto friends nor foes O the poor Benjamin, O. The next harm that we spied, Hey, boys, O, boys, Then we to heaven cried, hey, Down fell our main-mast head Which struck our senses dead In the poor Benjamin, O. Then we with seas were crossed, Hey, boys, O, boys, And on the ocean tossed, hey, Then we with seas were tossed, Many a brave man was lost In the brave Benjamin, O. The next harm that we had, Hey, boys, O, boys, We had cause to be sad, hey, The next harm that we had We lost four men from the yard In the poor Benjamin, O. Disabled as I name, Hey, boys, O, boys, We were drove on the main, hey, So the next harm we had We lost our rudder's head In the poor Benjamin, O. Then we all fell to prayer, Hey, boys, O, boys, The Lord our lives would spare, hey, Then we fell all to prayer And at last he did hear Us in the Benjamin, O. Although we sailed in fear, Hey, boys, O, boys, The Lord our ship did steer, hey Our prayers so fervent were That we had passage clear Into brave Plymouth Sound, O. When we came in Plymouth Sound, Hey, boys, O, boys, Our hearts did then resound, hey, When we came in Plymouth Sound Our grief with joy was crowned In the poor Benjamin, O. When we came all on shore, Hey, boys, O, boys, Every man at his door, hey, When we came all on shore Our grief we did deplore In the brave Benjamin, O. You gallant young men all, Hey, boys, O, boys, 'Tis unto you I call, hey, Likewise brave seamen all Lament the loss and fall Of the poor Benjamin, O Come my noble hearts of gold, Ay boys, O boys That on Neptune's waves [have rolled], ay Come my noble hearts of gold Your ancient courage bold Like the brave Benjamin, oh. I first heard the 1900s version from The Friends of Fiddlers Green with Sarah Grey and Owen McBride back in the early 1960s when they stormed into East Lansing, MI, for a concert. Cheerily, Charlie Ipcar |
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Bold Benjamin From: Lighter Date: 25 May 25 - 01:15 PM The Ian Campbell Folk Group's performance is the one I remember, from ca1964. |
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