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Lyr Req: Blackbird of Sweet Avondale

Related thread:
Lyr Req: The Blackbird of Sweet Avondale (7)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Blackbird of Sweet Avondale


Shanti 26 Jul 00 - 08:53 AM
Patrish(inactive) 26 Jul 00 - 08:57 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 00 - 09:15 AM
Shanti 26 Jul 00 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Nynia 26 Jul 00 - 11:46 AM
MMario 26 Jul 00 - 11:51 AM
Shanti 26 Jul 00 - 12:09 PM
Giac 26 Jul 00 - 03:35 PM
Giac 26 Jul 00 - 03:40 PM
MMario 26 Jul 00 - 03:51 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jul 00 - 03:52 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jul 00 - 04:05 PM
MMario 26 Jul 00 - 04:15 PM
Noreen 26 Jul 00 - 04:19 PM
Noreen 26 Jul 00 - 04:25 PM
Noreen 26 Jul 00 - 04:57 PM
Noreen 26 Jul 00 - 05:15 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jul 00 - 05:37 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jul 00 - 06:02 PM
Noreen 26 Jul 00 - 06:38 PM
Noreen 26 Jul 00 - 06:53 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jul 00 - 08:09 PM
Noreen 26 Jul 00 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Shanti 26 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jul 00 - 10:45 PM
Shanti 27 Jul 00 - 10:19 AM
GUEST 27 Jul 00 - 11:23 AM
Joe Offer 27 Jul 00 - 12:39 PM
Noreen 27 Jul 00 - 02:13 PM
Joe Offer 27 Jul 00 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,Shanti 28 Jul 00 - 06:04 AM
Shanti 28 Jul 00 - 09:18 AM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 00 - 08:50 AM
Shanti 29 Jul 00 - 11:09 AM
Shanti 29 Jul 00 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 29 Jul 00 - 03:17 PM
Shanti 29 Jul 00 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 29 Jul 00 - 04:48 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 00 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 29 Jul 00 - 06:16 PM
Shanti 29 Jul 00 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 30 Jul 00 - 03:15 AM
Shanti 30 Jul 00 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,Bruce O. 30 Jul 00 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,Bruce O 30 Jul 00 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 30 Jul 00 - 05:41 PM
Shanti 30 Jul 00 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 30 Jul 00 - 06:50 PM
Shanti 30 Jul 00 - 08:15 PM
smpc 02 Jul 09 - 12:40 PM
ard mhacha 02 Jul 09 - 02:06 PM
ard mhacha 02 Jul 09 - 02:08 PM
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Subject: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:53 AM

Hello Everyone,

Have been downloading lyrics from this site for three years, but I just joined a few minutes ago. Wonder if anyone can help me locate the lyrics to a Conferderate Civil War song called BROTHER GREEN. I know that I used to have music and lyrics in a book, but what with one move and another, I've lost the source. Would appreciate any help you can give. Also looking for the lyrics for an Irish song called BLACKBIRD OF SWEET AVONDALE.

Shanti


Please note:

When you start a thread at Mudcat, please try to pick a title that specifically describes what you're looking for. Nonspecific thread titles like this one cause a lot of confusion, and people often follow up and make it more confusing by adding requests for other songs.
For best results, please follow these guidelines:
  • Give threads specific titles
  • Please do not request more than one song in a thread

Even though the title of this thread is a problem for us, we'll do our best to help you find what you're looking for.
And I think we did a darn good job responding to this one.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE BLACKBIRD OF SWEET AVONDALE ^^
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:57 AM

Welcome shanti, hope you enjoy your time here as much as I do
Hope these are the words you wanted
Patrish

THE BLACKBIRD OF SWEET AVONDALE

By the bright bay of Dublin while carelessly strolling
I sat myself down by a clear crystal stream
Reclined on the beach where the wild waves were rolling
In sorrow condoling I spied a fair maid

Her robes changed to mourning that once were so glorious
I stood in amazement to hear her sad tale
Her heartstrings burst forth in wild accents deploring
Sayin, Where is my blackbird of sweet Avondale?

To the fair counties Meath, Kerry, Cork and Tipperary
The notes of his country my blackbird will sing
But woe to the hour when we'll part light and airy
He flew from my arms in Dublin to Queens

Now the fowlers waylay him in hopes to enchain him
While I here in sorrow his absence bewail
It grieves me to think that the walls of Kilmainham
Surrounds my poor blackbird of sweet Avondale

Now the cold prison dungeon is no habitation
For one for his country who fought loyal and true
Come grant him his pardon without hesitation
For remember he fought hard for freedom and you

Now the birds in the forest for me have no charm
Not even the voice of the sweet nightingale
Her notes full of charm fills my heart with alarm
Since I lost my poor blackbird of sweet Avondale

^^


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 09:15 AM

The blackbird of sweet Avondale was Charles Stuart Parnell, leader of the Irish independence movement in the British Parliament in the late 19th century. Avondale was his country house estate. One of my Irish songbooks has an old photograph of the house on the page with "Have you been to Avondale", which I think is in the DT.

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:22 AM

Thanks Patrish, for the lyrics. There were a few words I'd been in the dark about, since I first heard the song on the last studio recording done by SILLY WIZARD. You have cleared them up for me. Considering the speed with which I got an answer, I think I'm going to love being a member.

Wassail V, Thank you for the information. I've toured Avondale, and it's beautiful. How could it not be, in the "Garden of Ireland", County Wicklow. There's a great portrait of Parnell that welcomes you to the house. I managed to get a pic of it, before I found out that you're not allowed to take photos in the house.

shanti


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Nynia
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:46 AM

Ah to be sure we have him now me boys. Be sure not to damage the camera when ye confiscate it, it's only ma's sixtieth on Friday. LOL


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:51 AM

Can't find the lyrics or tune for "Brother Green" on the web.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:09 PM

GUEST, Nynia (Interesting name...) LOL myself...had taken three shots inside before someone told me not to. Ran into the same problem all over London and Dublin, because they want to sell postcards. You should have seen the whole group of us taking photos inside one of the cathedrals in London...the souvenir shop was closed...so we all clicked, flashed and left, in a hurry. btw...this he is a she.

MMario...thanks for looking...I couldn't find them either. Maybe someone can locate them for me in a book somewhere. Heard the song just recently on a recording by Connie Dover, and usually lyrics are included in the liner notes...but not this time.


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Subject: Lyr Add: BROTHER GREEN ^^
From: Giac
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 03:35 PM

Hope this is what you seek:

BROTHER GREEN
(Tune is Barbara Allen)

O brother Green, do come to me,
For I am shot and bleeding,
And I must die, no more to see,
My wife and my dear children.

The Southern foe has laid me low,
On this cold ground to suffer,
Dear brother stay, and put me away,
And write my wife a letter.

Tell her I know she's prayed for me,
And now her prayers are answered,
That I might be prepared to die,
If I should fall in battle.

Go tell my wife she must not grieve,
Go kiss my little children,
For I am going to Heaven to live,
To see my dear old mother.

Dear sister may have gone there too,
She lives and reigns with angels,
And Jeffer's son, who died when young,
I know I'll see their faces.

I have one brother in this wide world,
He's fighting for the Union,
But, oh, dear wife, I've lost my life,
To put down this Rebellion.

Tell my wife she must not grieve,
And kiss the little children,
For they will call their pa in vain,
When he is up in Heaven.

My little babes I love them well,
Oh could I once more see them,
That I might give a long farewell,
And meet them all in Heaven.


^^


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Giac
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 03:40 PM

Oh, yeah, welcome to Mudcat, Shanti. Sorry I was so slow in getting the lyrics for you - I was at the lake with the dogs. ~:)

Giac


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Subject: RE: tune
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 03:51 PM


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Subject: Blackbird of Sweet Avondale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 03:52 PM

Can anybody direct me to a tune for "Blackbird of Sweet Avondale"?
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Blackbird of Sweet Avondale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 04:05 PM

So, Mmario, what are you trying to say? C'mon, out with it!
I found the tune in "Bonny Bunch of Roses" and am ready to transcribe it, but I'm waiting to see if you're going to say you have it already.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 04:15 PM

My computer isn't doing a thing it's told today. Maybe i shouldn't have washed it?


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 04:19 PM

Joe, go to a href=http://www.greenlinnet.com/catalog/albums/1070.htm>Silly Wizard for a RealAudio of a snippet. Not a whole verse though, but I think you can work it out from that........otherwise I can sing it to you on HearMe!

Noreen


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 04:25 PM

Sorry, try this Silly Wizard

Noreen


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 04:57 PM

I see the above lyrics have already been harvested; please insert this verse instead of the verse 3 printed above which does not make sense- obviously mis-heard by someone.

In the fair counties Meath, Wexford, Cork and Tipperary
The rights of his country my blackbird did sing

But woe to the hour when with heart light and airy

He flew from my arms, to Dublin took wing.

There is also another verse, which I'm trying to remember at the moment, beginning....

Oh, Erin, my country, awake from your slumbers..


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:15 PM

This is formatted better (I hope)

In the fair counties Meath, Wexford, Cork and Tipperary
The rights of his country my blackbird did sing
But woe to the hour when with heart light and airy
He flew from my arms, to Dublin took wing.

This verse comes after those above:

Oh, Erin, my country, awake from your slumbers
And bring back my blackbird so true unto me
Let everyone know, by the strength of your numbers
That we as a nation would like to be free

-but there is yet another, final verse coming back to me in bits. On singing it through again, I find several other errors in the lyrics above (that sounds arrogant, but I'd rather the correct words went in the database). Joe, should I cut & paste the whole thing in again with corrections, or give verse/ line references for changes?

Noreen


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Subject: Blackbird of Avondale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:37 PM

Parnell was born at Avondale in County Wicklow in 1846. He was the son of an American woman and a member of the Anglo-Irish landowning class, an M.P. for Meath, and an ardent Irish nationalist who worked to bring about land reform and home rule. Like many of the greatest patriots, Parnell was not a Roman Catholic.
In 1889, after impeding Parliament in order to draw attention to the Irish Question, Parnell was named as a correspondent in a divorce proceeding and effectively ruined by a Church-Government alliance. (from "A Bonny Bunch of Roses," by Milner & Kaplan")
Parnell died in 1891.

Barry Finn posted the other verse in another thread:
Oh Erin, my country, awake from your slumber
And bring back my blackbird so true unto me
Let everyone know the strength of his murmur
That Ireland, a nation, would long to be free
The first three verses and the last verse that Patrish posted are almost the same as what's in Bonny Bunch of Roses. Dan Milner is a New Yorker, and maybe he was on the subway to Queens when he was transcribing that verse. I'll ask him to stop by to defend himself, and I'll submit both versions of the verse to the Digital Tradition.

Milner's book also has, "Where is my blackbirds of sweet Avondale?" I'm assuming that's a typo. Maybe that subway train hit a bump.

And, since Mmario doesn't seem to have a tune forthcoming, I'll transcribe the tune and post it in a little while.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 06:02 PM

Hi, Noreen - go ahead and post your corrections here. probably better to post just the stanzas you're correcting, unless you're making corrections to all the stanzas. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with. Milner's book says the source of the song was Fr. Charles Coen, so it's a man of the cloth you're contradicting...
And I'll have you all know that my pizza is getting cold and my beer is getting warm while I'm trying to sort all this out.
-Joe Offer, dedicated working stiff-


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 06:38 PM

Here goes:

verse 1
By the bright bay of Dublin while carelessly strolling
I sat myself down by a clear myrtle shade

Verse 2
Her robes changed to mourning that once were so glorious
I stood in amazement to hear her sad tale
Her heartstrings burst forth in wild accents uproarious

verse 4
Now the fowlers waylaid him in hopes to ensnare him

verse 5
Now the cold prison dungeon is no habitation
For one, to his country so loyal and true
So grant him his freedom without hesitation

This is all I can recall of the final verse- maybe it will jog someone else's memory? I'll see if I can find the rest tomorrow:

????????????????????.
And strengthen the brave sons of old Grainne Mhaol
????????????????????.
And bring back my blackbird to sweet Avondale

I remember hearing various versions of the words of verse 3 over the years, but being assured by 'those who know' that this was the original. It must be a phrase that is difficult to work out from someone else's singing.
Out of interest, when was Dan Milner's book published, Joe?

Noreen

BTW hope the pizza warmed up well and that you're not too stiff! :o)


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 06:53 PM

Got it!

Verse the last:
Oh, Heaven, give ear unto my supplication
And strengthen the brave sons of old Grainne Mhaol
God grant that my country will soon be a nation
And bring back my blackbird to sweet Avondale.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM

Hi, Noreen - Songs of England, Ireland & Scotland: A Bonnie Bunch of Roses, was published by Oak Publications in 1983. It was written by our own Dan Milner, with tune transcription by Paul Kaplan. It's available at Folk-Legacy Records (click). It's a good book, even if you do disagree with some of Dan's interpretations of the lyrics.
Many of us have been known to disagree with Dan at times, but you can't help but like him.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Tune Add: THE BLACKBIRD OF AVONDALE
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:09 PM

MIDI file: BLACKB~1.MID

Timebase: 192

Name: The Blackbird of Avondale
Text: By (unknown)
Key: D
TimeSig: 3/4 24 8
Start
0384 1 57 110 0142 0 57 000 0002 1 59 110 0046 0 59 000 0002 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 62 110 0096 0 62 000 0000 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 71 110 0096 0 71 000 0000 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0096 0 66 000 0000 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 62 110 0096 0 62 000 0000 1 57 110 0094 0 57 000 0002 1 57 110 0160 0 57 000 0032 1 71 110 0096 0 71 000 0000 1 73 110 0094 0 73 000 0002 1 74 110 0144 0 74 000 0000 1 76 110 0048 0 76 000 0000 1 74 110 0160 0 74 000 0032 1 73 110 0094 0 73 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 66 110 0256 0 66 000 0032 1 66 110 0048 0 66 000 0000 1 64 110 0046 0 64 000 0002 1 66 110 0336 0 66 000 0048 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 73 110 0094 0 73 000 0002 1 71 110 0336 0 71 000 0048 1 71 110 0096 0 71 000 0000 1 73 110 0094 0 73 000 0002 1 74 110 0144 0 74 000 0000 1 76 110 0048 0 76 000 0000 1 74 110 0160 0 74 000 0032 1 73 110 0094 0 73 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0336 0 71 000 0048 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0096 0 66 000 0000 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 62 110 0096 0 62 000 0000 1 57 110 0094 0 57 000 0002 1 59 110 0160 0 59 000 0032 1 59 110 0096 0 59 000 0000 1 61 110 0094 0 61 000 0002 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 62 110 0256 0 62 000 0032 1 62 110 0096 0 62 000 0000 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 71 110 0096 0 71 000 0000 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0096 0 66 000 0000 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 62 110 0336 0 62 000
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:The Blackbird of Avondale
M:3/4
Q:1/4=120
K:D
A,11/2B,/2|D2D2DF|A2B2BA|F2E2FE|DA,A,2Bc|
d3/2e/2d2cA|B2F3F/2E/2|F4Bc|B4Bc|d3/2e/2d2cA|
B4BA|F2E2FE|DA,B,2B,C|DD3DF|A2B2BA|F2E2FE|
D7/2||


Also submitted to Mudcat MIDIs.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:17 PM

Thanks for the info., Joe, I've looked up the links you gave and the book sounds good- the more spreading of the word(s), the better! I'll add it to my shopping list.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Shanti
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM

Thank you EVERYONE! I seem to have started quite a flurry of research. Giac, thank you so much for the lyrics to BROTHER GREEN! It's a beautiful song, the way Connie Dover sings it. If you've never heard her, I highly recommend her two latest releases IF EVER I RETURN and BORDER OF HEAVEN.

And thanks one and all for the various versions of BLACKBIRD OF SWEET AVONDALE. I noticed some of you referring to the Silly Wizard recording called GLINT OF SILVER for the tune to the song. Andy M. Stewart is one of my favorite Celtic performers. He was the Wizard's lead singer and now is on his own. He's an incredible song writer as well.

This has been a very rewarding first day of membership...think I'll stay on.


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Subject: Brother Green
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:45 PM

Ah, Shanti - I wish I would have remembered that it was on Connie Dover's The Border of Heaven. Here's what she says in the album notes:
Approximately 160,000 Irish-born troops fought for the Union during the American Civil War, some fighting in all-Irish units such as the Irish Brigade, which grew to five regiments from New York City, Boston, and Philadelphia. However, Ireland officially sided with the South, and many Irish fought with the Southern units. In an attack at Vicksburg, Mississippi in 1863, five men of the 7th Missouri Infantry were shot down while trying to keep their green flag aloft in a ditch beneath the enemy's ramparts. In the 1862 Battle of Fredericksburg (Virginia) the Irishmen of the 24th Georgia Infantry cheered the bravery of the charging Irish Brigade before mowing down their countrymen (Kansas City Star, March 17, 1998).
One of my sources for this song is from the singing of Mrs. Emma Dusenberry of Mena, Arkansas, as printed in Ozark Folksongs, edited by Vance Randolph. Versions also exist in Tennessee, Illinois, and Missouri. The latter state was the scene of some of the war's bloodiest fighting, particularly along its western border with Kansas, where continued violence between "Free Staters" and "Border Ruffians" terrorized inhabitants and kept the region in a state of turbulence for over a decade. The melody is derived from "Barbry Ellen," an American variant of the well-known Scottish ballad, "Barbara Allen."
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 10:19 AM

Thanks Joe,

I'm always interested in the background of of a song. I knew there were many Irish who fought in the Civil War. The ones who fought for the South were no doubt landowners who wanted to keep their land. Most had probaby come from poverty in Ireland, where land ownership was denied to Catholics. I can certainly understand why they sided with the South. I have a book of folksongs that were compiled by the Univ of Mo...hadn't thought to look in there for Brother Green. Hmmm. The tune I heard on the BOARDER OF HEAVEN by Connie Dover was not Barbry Ellen...it was no doubt arranged by Connie herself, and has a much more poignant sound.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 11:23 AM

When you write about making "corrections" to a folk song, there is an assumption that there is only 1 true set of words. This flies in the face of the very nature of folk song, i.e. that the text may change over the years as successive performers both consciously and unconsciously alter words. Substituting "myrtle shade" for "crystal stream" should hardly be thought of as a correction. Father Charlie's version is as valid as anyone else's.

Beyond that, there are a few typos in A Bonnie Bunch of Roses and pluralizing "blackbird of sweet Avondale" in line 4 of verse 2 is one of them. At the time the book was put together, there were no such things as a PC and Spell Check. Therefore, the book was literally pasted together by a typesetter. He must've done this song after lunch when he was a little spleepy.

The book has been continuously in print since 1983. It's a stock item at most Borders bookstores in the USA and there are 2 copies at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library of the English Folk Dance & Song Society in London.

All the best,
Dan Milner

P.S. I recently picked up a copy of Charles Stewart Parnell written by his brother, John Howard Parnell in 1914. JHP lived on a plantation in Alabama.


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Subject: Rose of Avondale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 12:39 PM

Ach, Dan, come back! I was hoping you could comment on the meaning of "He flew from my arms in Dublin to Queens." Where's Queens? I take it "Kilmainham" is a prison, but where, and is there a story behind it?
Is there more of a story behind how the song was found?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 02:13 PM

Hi Dan,
I take your point about different versions of a song and am well aware of the oral tradition at work. Sorry if my wording offended you (or anyone else), that was not the intention.
In the version I was taught, the rhyme is maintained in verses 1 & 2
'myrtle shade: fair maid' and
'once were so glorious : wild accents uproarious'
which leads me to believe that this is what was intended by the author, whoever he / she was. The 'took wing / to Queens' alteration sounds like a mishearing to me, and I know which one I think makes more sense. But everyone is of course free to sing whichever words please them (unless/ until anyone finds a definitive source)- I've said my bit.

Noreen

Joe, Kilmainham is the prison in Dublin where Parnell was held, and it is mentioned in several other songs.


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Subject: Rose of Avondale
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 04:56 PM

Here's Dan's response:
Hi Joe!

The only "Queens" that makes sense is Queen's County. That is the old name for Co. Laois (pronounced "leash" and also spelled Leix and at one time Laoighis). I don't know the significance of the line but the fact that Dublin was the political center of the country and Queens was not probably plays into it.

Kilmainham is a prison alright. It is also a district of Dublin on the south bank of the Liffey just west of the city center and that's where the prison is located.

Parnell has often been called the "Uncrowned King" of Ireland. He had great public support. Obviously, the Roman Catholic Church could not have supported him at that time given his affair with Mrs. O'Shea. It also did not want to.

History has made some strange bedfellows.

All the best,
Dan
Thanks, Dan.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Shanti
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 06:04 AM

Thanks for all the info, Dan. You've done some great research.

Kilmainham Goal is now a museum, and an incredible place to take a tour of. The ASGARD, a yacht that ran guns to Ireland for the '16 Rising is now in the yard of the prison. They're restoring it. One really grim stat about the prison, is that it was originally made to hold perhaps 500 people...but at one point it was housing 3000! Children were also kept there as prisoners. The youngest was an 8 year old girl, who had stolen a cloak, because she was cold.

You can see the cells where all the '16 prisoners were kept, the yard where they were shot (there's a placque on the wall with all the names. That one act, more than any other, is what finally brought the attention of the world to Ireland's cause.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 09:18 AM

Don't know why this system keeps referring to me as a GUEST...I'm just a very new member.

Dan,

Where did you find the copy of the book about Parnell? Have you read the one called KITTY O'SHEA (Kitty was a name she hated to be called...the press gave it to her)? The entire story of her relationship with JSP was so very sad.

I agree about "corrections" to the lyrics of folk songs. There really isn't such a thing...they're all just variations on a theme, so-to-speak.

Joe,

That one line that you've been discussing is the main reason why I asked about the lyrics in the first place. Just could not make sense of it. With the word Queens, I still can't, unless it was a reference to Queen Victoria. Parnell wasn't held in Kilmainham for very long, only a few days. In that place, any amoung of time would have been horrible!


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 08:50 AM

Hi, Shanti - look at Dan's explanation (click) above - in the e-mail I quoted. He thinks it may be County Queens (now County Laois).

If you're coming up on new messages you post on some pages as "Guest," they may be pages left over on your computer from the time before you were registered (in the old messages you posted, you will forever be "guest"). clear the cache on your browser, and that should take care of it. More details in the Cookies & Registration thread.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 11:09 AM

Joe and Dan, You could of course be right about the Queens reference in the song, but since Parnell was housed in Kilmainham, which is in County Dublin (it's actually just a part of Dublin City now), the line still doesn't make much sense. I'm going to drop an email to Andy Stewart, through his new web site, and see if he'll tell me how the exact line reads and what it refers to. Besides being the Wizard's lead singer, he also wrote or arranged a lot of their tunes, so he should know. I'll post my answer, when I get one.

I did find out that the cookie had to be reset on my puter, and I did that last night...hope I no longer be referred to as a "guest." Thanks.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 02:49 PM

Noreen...you win the prize (have no idea what it is)...

On 7/26, you sent me the lyrics to BLACKBIRD OF SWEET AVONDALE and you had the last line of that tricky verse as "to Dublin took wing." At least the way Silly Wizard (Andy Stewart) sang it...that's exactly right...and it makes more sense than the alternative, "to Dublin to Queens."

I just re-listened (VERY CAREFULLY) to the CD with that song, and remembering how AS sounded when I saw him perform, with his lovely Scottish accent, that is just the what he is saying.

Thanks!


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 03:17 PM

"The blackbird of Avondale, or the Arrest of Parnell" is on the Bodley Ballads website. It seems to be an imitation of "The Ladies Lamentation", 1651, which is in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website. The Irish (much later) called this "The blackbird" and there are many copies of the 'Irish' tune for it from the late 18th century on (an ABC of is in file S1 on my website). The tune is first found as "The Bonny Lass of Aberdeen" in Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion'.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 03:52 PM

Thanks for the info BruceO. I'd like to check out the web sites you mentioned. How do I get to yours? I have seen a couple of other songs with similar titles, but they were not the versions I was looking for. I like the Silly Wizard version of BLACKBIRD OF SWEET AVONDALE, because of the imagery in those particular lyrics and the poignancy of the thoughts...could have been written by Katherine O'Shea herself. Does anyone know who wrote them?


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 04:48 PM

Mine website URL has been posted many times in the Mudcat Forum, but I keep forgetting that new people are coming all the time and haven't seen the old posings. For reason's I don't know, I've never been listed in the Mudcat's Links. My website is at: www.erols.com/olsonw

The Bodley Ballads website is in Mudcat's Links.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 06:07 PM

Click here to get to the song at the Bodleian Library. I added Bruce's wonderful Web site to the Mudcat links page. Still, Bruce, it might be helpful to provide specific URLs or links for the documents you refer to. I had some trouble finding the document at the Bodleian Library myself, and I'm quite experienced at Web searching.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 06:16 PM

Bodley Ballads Search doesn't work as well as it might, so I usually start with a key word, as unique as possible, in this case 'Avondale', because 'blackbird' can be one word, two words, or a hyphenated word.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 08:13 PM

Thank you Joe and Bruce! It's incredible! Finally, I've been pointed in the right direction for research on this subject. Bruce, I checked out your web site earlier this afternoon, and it's very impressive. How did you get started with this endeavor? Joe, I'm glad you've added a link to Bruce's site. It's well worth looking into. Thank you as well, for providing the click to get to the broadside on the Bodleian site. I had done research with the library's vast collection of medieval tapestries, but I had no idea that they had such a marvelous collection of folk song as well. Wow!


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 03:15 AM

Under 'blackbird' the Bodley ballads website are several different song. The ones that reprint "The Ladies Lamentation" of 1651 on my website are those that commence "Upon a fair morning for soft recreation". For several of these the Bodley Ballads website has a note that says the subject is Charles Edward Stuart (1720-88). This is an old, but erroneous association. I have seen a J. Pitts issue in the Library of Congress (but can't find it on the Bodley Ballads website) that says the song is an old Scots one from Allen Ramsay's Collection of Scots Songs (Tea Table Miscellany), and it first appeared there in the 1740 edition, and I suspect that is how the song got to Ireland. I've also seen the song said to be associated with James II after he lost his kingdom (late 1688).

Another seeming imitiation of the 1651 ballad is the a late 'blackbird' (Henry Such issue) on the Bodley Ballads website that commences "Come all you Irishmen both great and small".

Somewhat surprisingly, J. Hogg's 'Jacobite Relics' has only a fragment of "The Ladies Lamentation" from a manuscript, and Hogg couldn't figure out who the 'blackbird' might be.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:34 AM

Wow! Bruce, you're as avid a researcher as I am. I'm nost surprised that "blackbird" would retrieve so many different listings. That particular species figures in MANY different ballads and songs. I agree that the reference to Bonnie Prince Charlie in the one example is false. Don't think, from what I've read, that he was ever referred to in that way. Bonnie Dundee could possibly have been called blackbird at one time or another...portraits show him dressed in black armour, with long black hair.

Blackbird certainly fits Parnell though. He seems to have been quite striking, with piercing eyes, and a black beard. He was of the Irish ascendency and I think it must have surprised some people that he became such an avid promotor of Home Rule. His home in Avondale is now part of the Forestry School in Ireland, and it's a grand place to take a tour. The setting is gorgeous!

As for the tune making it's way to Ireland, it probably came with some of the Irish who were supporters of the Jacobites. Irish republicans would have supported (and did) anyone who was fighting against the English.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 03:32 PM

With some diddling with Search on the Bodley Ballads website I've found that that 'Title, First line, tune keyword" means a single keyword from title, first line or tune, and the search doesn't work with more than one word entered.

I was wrong about no J. Pitts issue on the Bodley Ballads website. A Search on 'Black-bird' turns up addition copies printed by Catnach and Pitts with the note that the song is from 'The Tea Table Miscellany'. The Bodley Ballads website then (erroneously) attributes the song to Allan Ramsay.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Bruce O
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 03:46 PM

There are 4 more copies of "The Ladies Lamentation/ The blackbird" on the Bodley Ballads website under the title "The Royal Black Bird". 'bird' is the best keyword to use for a search, as one only has 11 pages of results to scan through to find them. The single keyword search is very awkward here.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 05:41 PM

"The blackbird" is #2375 in Steve Roud's folk song index. There are many more broadside than traditional versions listed. Those I have are: Randolph's 'Ozark Folk Songs', I, #116, (1980 ed.); Joyce's 'Old irish Folk Music and Songs'; 'The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection', I, #117 (1 verse fragement with no tune). Roud says it's also in Christie's 'Traditional Ballad Airs'. [Also in Colm O Lochlainn's 'More Irish Street Ballads'].

S. P. Bayard, 'Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife', #177, 1982, gives 8 instrumental versions of the tune and mentions the song as being sung in Pennsylvania in the 1930s.

"The Blackbird of Avondale" is Roud #5174, but he lists only 2 versions, both traditional on phono record


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 06:24 PM

BruceO, I'm absolutely overwhelmed!

Your research certainly traces the tune at least, over many miles and to many places. Thank you for all your work. It's always amazing to me that folk music seems to just incorporate change of time and location, without losing anything of the spirit behind it.

The more I've thought about it, with regard to Parnell, the more sense the lyrics make. The verse with the questionable line, for instance, talks about a sort of "whistle stop" campaign that Parnell had been on, just prior to coming back to Avondale. But before he had been home for even a day, I think, he was called to Dublin, and en route, he was taken prisoner and put in Kilmainham. The song is from the viewpoint of Katherine O'Shea as the personification of Ireland. In Irish myth, the country has always had a feminine personna, and she's both warrior and mother.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 06:50 PM

Ireland as an old woman seems to have been most often personified as Grace O'Malley. There is a least one old thread here and some songs on Granuaile in the DT. However, spelling is so variable it would take a long time to dig these out. See early copies of the tune and some songs to it on my website, and search on the Bodley Ballads website for 'Granua' for several Irish ballads having 'sons of Granua' or similar in the first line.


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Subject: RE: New Member, Old Lyrics
From: Shanti
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 08:15 PM

Grace O'Malley never made it being an old woman, I don't think. If you listened to the Virgin Queen, Grace was a pirate. She took of the chieftancy of her clan after her husband's death, and she raded the English coast to get supplies and money. Granuaile (with the various spellings in Old, Middle and Modern, not to mention Scots) is Gaelic and in English it's translated to Grace.

There was also a mythical Granuaile, and that's the one to whom I think the song is referring. She was, I think a mother/goddess.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Blackbird of Sweet Avondale
From: smpc
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 12:40 PM

i twice heard this song sang by Nora Butler but i always thought there was one or two more verses than showen here? ? ?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Blackbird of Sweet Avondale
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 02:06 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzW-mmMlJ30


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Blackbird of Sweet Avondale
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 02:08 PM

The above clicky was mine, this recording of the Blackbird of sweet Avodale, by The Wolfe Tnes.


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