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Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)

Dave the Gnome 31 Jul 00 - 08:38 AM
John J 31 Jul 00 - 11:40 AM
Llanfair 31 Jul 00 - 05:54 PM
Stewie 31 Jul 00 - 07:19 PM
Malcolm Douglas 31 Jul 00 - 07:22 PM
Malcolm Douglas 31 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM
Stewie 31 Jul 00 - 08:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Aug 00 - 04:32 AM
John J 01 Aug 00 - 04:36 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Aug 00 - 06:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 01 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,JohnB 24 May 01 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Willa 24 May 01 - 06:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 May 01 - 03:51 AM
Malcolm Douglas 25 May 01 - 08:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 May 01 - 08:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 May 01 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Willa 25 May 01 - 02:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 May 01 - 05:13 PM
Anglo 26 May 01 - 01:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 May 01 - 04:31 AM
nutty 26 May 01 - 08:04 AM
nutty 26 May 01 - 08:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 May 01 - 03:45 PM
Chanteyranger 27 May 01 - 03:06 AM
Stewie 27 May 01 - 07:06 AM
Anglo 27 May 01 - 11:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 May 01 - 12:59 PM
Jim Dixon 10 Jan 02 - 11:18 AM
Willa 10 Jan 02 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,lancishire lass 31 Dec 07 - 09:13 PM
Willa 01 Jan 08 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jan 08 - 01:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 08 - 05:06 AM
Emma B 02 Jan 08 - 06:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jan 08 - 07:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jan 08 - 08:00 AM
Willa 02 Jan 08 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,chris hewitt 27 Oct 08 - 05:19 AM
Phil Edwards 27 Oct 08 - 07:42 PM
Mark Dowding 28 Oct 08 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 08 - 04:44 AM
Phil Edwards 28 Oct 08 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,chris hewitt 30 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM
Bernard 30 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM
Les in Chorlton 31 Oct 08 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Oct 08 - 06:01 AM
Les in Chorlton 31 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM
John J 31 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM
Les in Chorlton 31 Oct 08 - 01:07 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Nov 08 - 03:22 AM
GUEST,Robin 28 Nov 08 - 04:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 08 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Marting 21 Jul 09 - 08:08 AM
Les in Chorlton 21 Jul 09 - 08:20 AM
Bernard 14 Aug 09 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Guest: The Man from UNCOOL 22 May 12 - 11:17 AM
stallion 23 May 12 - 04:42 AM
GUEST 23 May 12 - 08:38 AM
Bernard 23 May 12 - 08:40 AM
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Subject: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:38 AM

Song that starts "At Peters field in Manchester in the year one-eight one-nine When cotton and coal in Lancashire in protest did combine"

Could be called "The fields of Peterloo" as that is how the chorus ends ie "Salute once more these men of yore, who were to concience true. Who gave their blood for the common good, on the Fields of Peterloo"

Lyrics and info please???

BTW - Manchester council, with their classic disregard of the past, have decided to 're-vamp' the Free Trade Hall which was possibly the best memorial to those who lost their lives at Peterloo. To add insult to injury the area (or at least the car park)is now 'Peters Fields' as opposed to the traditional Peters Field. Not much difference I will grant but makes life a lot more difficult for future historians and folk-lorists!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: John J
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 11:40 AM

I know the song you mean, although I haven't got the words. I'll see if I can get them at the pub tonight. I think the story is about the corn laws and a general demonstration objecting to them. Ordinary people were charged by cavalry in 18 hundred and something, resulting in the 'Peterloo Massacre'. I've got some bumph on it at home which I'll dig out and post tomorrow for you. Cheers, John


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Llanfair
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 05:54 PM

I don't know the song, but the story of the massacre appears to have more than one version, one being that many people died, and another that a couple of people were slightly injured when the soldiers fired over their heads after the reading of the riot act, but the news story was distorted to gain sympathy for the rioters.
It would be an interesting one to research. Bron.


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Subject: Lyr Add: PETERLOO MASSACRE (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Stewie
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:19 PM

Great song. I found this in one of my old notebooks - I can't recall my source.

PETERLOO MASSACRE
(Harvey Kershaw)

In Peter's field in Manchester in year 1819
Cotton folk of Lancashire in protest did combine
Corn laws had brought the crippling tax
The price of food near broke folks backs
And set alight the smouldering flax
And bristled many a spine

Chorus:
Salute once more these men of yore
Who were to conscience true
And gave their blood for common good
On fields at Peterloo

Sixteenth day of August brought the sound of marching feet
When workers fifty thousand strong in Peter's field did meet
In Mount Street from an upstairs room, the magistrates looked down with gloom
And scoffed their rabble o the loom ? vengeance, they vow, 'tis sweet

Then Riot Act were garbled out at Parson his command
For this here Rochdale vicar made with richest living in land
But folk at meeting never knew 'bout Riot Act till bugles blew
And mounted Redcoats come in view, their sabres in their hands

These soldiers mowed folk down like flies, their sabres dripped with blood
They spared no man nor woman's cry, but pierced them where they stood
Many dead that day were named and hundreds more were ripped and maimed
While tyrants watching unashamed said it would do them good

For many a year folks struggled on till 1832
Reform Act come, corn laws were done and food was cheaper too
John Bright and Cobden paved the way and now where Peter's field once lay
Free Trade Hall it stands today on field at Peterloo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:22 PM

There are a lot of songs about Peterloo; some written at the time (one slightly before), but this sounds like a recent one.  Roy Palmer's book, The Sound of History, has some of the contemporary ones.  I haven't managed to find the song you describe, but I'm sure that somebody will, in time.  Can you give us any clues?  Where did you hear it?

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM

Stewie and I cross-posted there.  All I can add is that it may have been recorded by the Oldham Tinkers (Topic 12TS206; Oldham's Burning Sands)..perhaps somebody can check that?

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Stewie
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:04 PM

Hi Malcolm, you are quite right. I checked the Topic discography at Musical Traditions site and the OT did record it. That would have been my source - I thought of the Oldham Tinkers, but the song was not in any of the four LPs of theirs remaining in my collection. However, I recall now that I once had a cassette recording of 'Oldham's Burning Sands'. Dave the gnome had it correctly titled as 'Peterloo'. It is not titled 'Peterloo Massacre', as I had it.

Cheers, Stewie.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 04:32 AM

Brilliant Guys

It is the Harvey Kershaw one shown above that I wanted. I had about 30% of the words, gleaned from a very poor quality recording from a Whitby folk festival circa 1980. I do not even know who was singing it then and it is a bit academic now as I have lost the tape anyway!

I did a bit of research on the event myself many years ago and the song does seem a good reflection of what the historians say.

What this one doesn't mention - but others do - is that the crowd had gathered to listen to Henry Hunt. The one I have heard most is "With Henry Hunt we'll go my boys, with Henry Hunt we'll go. We'll ... In spite of Nadin Joe." Joseph Nadid was the head of the local Police at the time.

There is a good, factual if rather dry, account at http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1819peterloo.html

Enjoy. And once again thanks to all contributors.

D the G


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: John J
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 04:36 AM

Well Dave, it looks like you've got the words AND some history! I checked last night at home but I'm afraid I had no info at all. Cheers, John


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 06:18 AM

Bron, the Tinkers' album Oldham's Burning Sands has a note about the song which is pretty much in line with what I learnt at school: "...some 80,000 people gathered to hear the well-known Radical, 'Orator' Hunt. The yeomanry charged into the crowd, laying about with their sabres. In a few minutes, eleven people were killed and some 400 injured."

I have always thought the tragedy might partly have been explained by both sides underestimating the effect of charging horses in a large crowd. Anyone who was at Grosvenor Square in '68 will know what I mean.

It is unlikely that the news in those days would have been massaged to the benefit of the rioters. The occasion deserved to make a massive impact in its own right. Percy Bysshe Shelley was inspired by the incident to write an angry ballad, the Masque of Anarchy, which is well worth a read. Its lines include:
I met Murder on the way?
He had a mask like Castlereagh...

His [Lord Ermine's] big tears, for he wept well,
Turned to millstones as they fell;
And the little children who
Round his feet played to and fro,
Thinking every tear a gem,
Had their brains knocked out by them....

Stand ye calm and resolute,
Like a forest close and mute,
With folded arms, and looks which are
Weapons of an unvanquished war.

And let Panic, who outspeeds
The career of armed steeds,
Pass a disregarded shade,
Through your phalanx undismayed...

And perhaps most famously:

Rise like lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number!
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you:
Ye are many?they are few!


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Subject: Lyr Add: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 01 - 11:56 AM

I have just completed collecting and sifting through the various bits and versions I have learned. Stewies version above seems pretty close to what I have now so I will not bother going through the differences. I don't know what is Harveys original work and what is someone else's interpretation anyway!

All that aside I have resurected this thread because the other day I was basking in the glorious sunshine outside Bar 38, a trendy wine bar on Peter Street, Manchester, just down the road from where they are busy turning the Free Trade Hall into an up-market hotel, leaving only the original facade. Bear in mind the hall was a memorial to the people who lost their lives and it provided a good quality and affordable venue for all sorts of events for the people of Manchester. I contemplated the wine bars, clubs, concrete sculptures, fountains and trendy young people (not me of course!) enjoying themselves. It is all very pretty but I felt deep regret that these buildings were on, or at least alongside, the very fields where the horrific massacre occured nearly 200 years ago. There is no mention of it anywhere.

It is not often I am moved to writing but the anger I felt resulted in the following verse, written by me, which I feel could now expand the original. Don't bother crediting me if you use it but do mention the original is by Harvey Kershaw and the last verse has been added by someone else in the light of more recent events.

Here it is -

This fine hall it stood in tact 'till the new millennium turned
Built with cotton money to remind us all of the terrible lessons learned
But the rich developers wanted the land
On the Free Trade Hall a hotel is planned
Where the concerts played, garish bars now stand
On the fields of Peterloo

Nowhere near as good as Harvey I know but the best I can think of at the moment.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:39 PM

Thanks for the hard work DTG, I was only thinking of this song last week, now I don't have to dig around for the words. JohnB


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 24 May 01 - 06:05 PM

Jim Woodland's song, 'St.Peter's Fields' (sung by Janet Russell), is a modern, but very traditional-sounding song.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 01 - 03:51 AM

Oooh - have you got any details, Willa? Words would be good. With tune even better! Details of any recordings would suffice though.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 May 01 - 08:22 AM

Janet Russell, Bright Shining Morning, Harbourtown Records HARCD 026, 1993.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 01 - 08:39 AM

Thanks Malcolm - note made. Good to have met you last weekend btw.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 01 - 08:41 AM

Knew I'd forgot something else - Theres a great version of this song (Harveys Peterloo that is) on Lynne and Barry Hardmans new CD. Dunno what the CD is called though but you can get it wherever Lynne and Barry are playing.

D


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Subject: Lyr Add: ST PETER'S FIELD
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 25 May 01 - 02:15 PM

ST. PETER'S FIELD
JIM WOODLAND (JANET RUSSELL) F#C#G#

Peter's fields in Manchester, on a day we need not name.
Soldiers waiting in the sunshine, one by one the people came.
And the women were dressed in white, wearing leaves of laurel green.
Peter's fields in Manchester, 1819.

EEEEDCBA AAAAFEE EEEEDCBA AAACCBB EEFFEFEE.CDEECAF AAAACCBA.BBAA

And you would think reform
was a baby that must be born.
And you would think democracy
would give us hopes of liberty.
But do you think that's true?
Have you heard the news?

EFFFEF.FEFFEFEE EFFFEFEF.FEEEFEFG EFFFCB.FFFCB

Chorus
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.
And the red upon the green grass sparkles like the morning dew.
Feel the tears roll down like water, and wash the bloodstains from you.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.

CCCCBAAD.CCCAABD CCCCBAAD.CCCAABC CCCCBAAD.CCCCCEE CCCCBABE.CDCAABA

Somebody tell me how it happened, I know even less than you.
Their swords were out and sharpened, a hundred thousand pushing through.
We were standing in the front line, still I can't believe it's true.
I saw her eyes, she saw mine. She was dead before she knew.

Chorus

And when you wake up in the in the morning, thank the star that shines on you, that the likes of Phoebe Webber always do the things they do.
From the bloody streets of Moscow to the ghettoes of the USA,
From the haunted squares of China to the graveyards of the Cape

CCCCCBAAD.CCCCAABC CCCCBAAD.CCCAABC CCCCBAAD.CCCAABC CCCCBABE.DDCAABC

She will die again tomorrow, just as she died yesterday.
She will die until the sorrow and the chains are swept away.

CCCCBAAD.CCCBABC CCCCBABE.DDCAABA

Now the green leaves of the laurel turn a red and deathly hue.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.
Now the green leaves of the laurel turn a red and deathly hue.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on a street not far from you.

CCCCBAAD.CCCBABC CCCCBABE.DDCBABA


Sorry about the peculiar notation; I understand it, but it's probably meaningless to anyone else; at least you have the words now, and yes, Malcolm's reference to Janet's CD is correct.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 01 - 05:13 PM

Cheers Willa

I was there again today. Not quite as sunny but still warm. Teasers bar. Gosh - how do they get away with wearing so few clothes? Not that I'm complaining mind...

Anyway. A bit more of the history. The latest trendy bars etc are built on the site of the old LNER warehouse on the corner of Peter Street and Deansgate. I commented to the better half that even though the site is now worth millions it was probably worth a lot more, in todays terms, when the LNER was transporting cotton, coal, and everything else through its warehouse. The Free Trade Hall is still becoming a hotel but it made me feel a little less angry when I realised that the cotton and coal magnates had lost in the end. It is now ordinary working folk that frequent Peters fields.

But don't look too closely at who owns the bars;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Anglo
Date: 26 May 01 - 01:30 AM

Would that be the LNWR, Dave?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 01 - 04:31 AM

Could be - I'll double check when I pass.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: nutty
Date: 26 May 01 - 08:04 AM

There's lyrics tune and chords here - not sure if it's the one you want but this is a very useful site anyway

PERETLOO


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: nutty
Date: 26 May 01 - 08:06 AM

SPOT ......the deliberate mistake. My mind is back to front as well this morning


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 01 - 03:45 PM

Brilliant link, Nutty. Thanks.

And what's wrong with portaloos's???

Not got chance to check if its LNER or LNWR yet - maybe Monday

DtG


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 27 May 01 - 03:06 AM

There was an LP by, I think, Ewan MacColl called "Waterloo/Peterloo." Don't know what became of it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Stewie
Date: 27 May 01 - 07:06 AM

Chanteyranger, that was by The Critics Group of which MacColl was a member, and it has gone the way of a lot of great music - out of print. It was on the English Argo label, a subsidiary of Decca (I think), that seems to have disappeared long ago.

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Anglo
Date: 27 May 01 - 11:04 AM

Not important, Dave. I think the LNWR (London North Western Railway) was the largest of the companies that regrouped into the LMS. The LNER (of Flying Scotsman fame) went up via Doncaster & Newcastle. Just a memory of my mis-spent trainspotting youth.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 01 - 12:59 PM

Aaaagghhh! Now you tell me! I drove into town today specialy!!! You owe me 30p for diesel! (Not realy - I was going in anyway;-))

It was LNER - I guess central station (now GMEX) immediateley behind the depot was LNER. Victoria was L&Y. London Road (Now piccadilly) was LMS and Exchange may have been L&Y or LNWR. Interesting to me as well - you're not the only train spotter!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: Lyr Add: ST. PETER'S FIELDS (Jim Woodland)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 11:18 AM

I have transformed Willa's "peculiar notation" into something more readable. However, I don't know the song, and I don't really understand her notation, so I don't know if the lyrics below are properly divided into stanzas and chorus(es).

ST. PETER'S FIELDS
(Jim Woodland)

Peter's Fields in Manchester, on a day we need not name.
Soldiers waiting in the sunshine, one by one the people came.

And the women were dressed in white, wearing leaves of laurel green.
Peter's fields in Manchester, 1819.

And you would think reform was a baby that must be born.
And you would think democracy would give us hopes of liberty.

But do you think that's true? Have you heard the news?

Chorus

Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.
And the red upon the green grass sparkles like the morning dew.

Feel the tears roll down like water, and wash the bloodstains from you.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.

Somebody tell me how it happened, I know even less than you.
Their swords were out and sharpened, a hundred thousand pushing through.

We were standing in the front line, still I can't believe it's true.
I saw her eyes, she saw mine. She was dead before she knew.

Chorus

And when you wake up in the in the morning, thank the star that shines on you,
that the likes of Phoebe Webber always do the things they do.

From the bloody streets of Moscow to the ghettoes of the USA,
From the haunted squares of China to the graveyards of the Cape

She will die again tomorrow, just as she died yesterday.
She will die until the sorrow and the chains are swept away.

Now the green leaves of the laurel turn a red and deathly hue.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.

Now the green leaves of the laurel turn a red and deathly hue.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on a street not far from you.

[As sung by Janet Russell on "Bright Shining Morning?" Harbourtown Records HARCD 026, 1993.]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Willa
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:23 PM

Hi, Jim. Thanks for amending my posting. The song is, I think, by Jim Woodland. These four lines only are the chorus
Chorus
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo
And the red upon the green grass sparkles like the morning dew.
Feel the tears roll down like water, and wash the bloodstains from you.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: GUEST,lancishire lass
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:13 PM

slightly befuddled brain tonight as for some unknown reason this song came to mind . Maybe passing the area earlier en=route to wilmslow rd had triggered a memory.as i recall a well performed Olhdam Tinkers song.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Willa
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 10:09 AM

A red plaque (replacing the original blue one0 has now been erected in the centre of Manchester, after pressure from members of the Peterloo massacre memorial campaign, giving fuller details of events. (15 dead and over 600 wounded.) Members are still campaigning for a commemorative sculpture to be erected.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE MEETING AT PETERLOO
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 01:29 PM

This is the text of a broadside I found in historian Eddie Frow's library back in the sixties
I have included the note that was added by Tish Stubbs and Sam Richards when they included it in 'The English Folksinger.

THE MEETING AT PETERLOO
1. Come lend an ear of pity while I my tale do tell.
It happened at Manchester a place you know right well.
For to redress our wants and woes reformers took their ways,
A lawful meeting being called upon a certain day.

2. The sixteenth day of August eighteen hundred and nineteen
There many thousand people on every road were seen
From Stockport, Oldham, Ashton and from other places too,
It was the largest meeting that reformers ever knew.

3. Brave Hunt he was appointed that day to take the chair.
At one-o-clock he did arrive, our shouts did rend the air.
Some females fair in white and green close by the hustings stood
And little did we all expect to see such scenes of blood.

4. Scarcely had Hunt begun to speak: Be firm, he said, my friends.
But little still did we expect what was to be the end
For around us all so hard and cruel regardless of our woes
Our enemies surrounded us on the plains of Peterloo.

5. The soldiers came unto the ground and thousands tumbled down
And many armless females lay bleeding on the ground.
No time for flight was gave to us, still every road we fled.
There were such heaps were trampled down, some wounded and some dead.

6. Brave Hunt was then arrested and several others too.
They marched us to the New Bailey, believe me it is true
And numbers there was wounded and many there was slain
Which makes the friends of those dear souls so loudly to complain.

7. Oh God above look down on those for Thou art just and true
And those that can no mercy show thy vengeance is their due.
Now quit this hateful mournful scene, look forward with this hope
That every murderer in this land may swing upon a rope.

8. But soon reform shall spread around for sand with the tide won't stay.
May all the filth that's in the land right soon be washed away.
And may sweet harmony from hence in this our land be found
May we with plenty all be blessed in all the country round.

The Meeting at Peterloo (p. 161) A Manchester broadside, set to a traditional tune - a Cornish version of "The Loyal Lover' from the Gardiner manuscript.
This broadside describes the notorious massacre at St Peter's Field, Manchester, 16th August, 1819. Hunt, mentioned in several verses, was the main leader at this gathering of radicals and reformers, and in their book 77 The British Labour Movement, 1770-1920, A. L Morton and G. Tate give a grim picture of what took place: 'On August 16th 1819, contingents with bands and banners, and including many women, marched to the meeting ground in perfect order but with a discipline more terrifying to the authorities than any disorder could have been. As Hunt was beginning to speak, a troop of Hussars and the Manchester Yeomanry were launched at the closely packed crowd. The soldiers seem merely to have obeyed their orders mechanically; it was the upper-class yeomanry who showed a positive enthusiasm for hacking and trampling the unarmed people. Very soon eleven were dead and some four hundred wounded.'

"I don't know the song, but the story of the massacre appears to have more than one version, one being that many people died, and another that a couple of people were slightly injured when the soldiers fired over their heads after the reading of the riot act, but the news story was distorted to gain sympathy for the rioters.
It would be an interesting one to research. Bron.

I missed this first time round - I've heard of holocaust deniers, but this is is nonsense.
The facts of the massacre are well established and fully accepted, except by a few nutters.
There is an excellent account of the events in Joyce Marlow's 'The Peterloo Massacre, published by Rapp and Whiting in 1969.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM

Funnily enough, Jim, the massacre was always denied by one of the chief causers - William Hulton. Not only head of the Manchester Magistrates but also High Sherrif of Lancashire, this paricularly nasty piece of work was also responsible for hanging children as young as 10 and casuing the deaths of dozens of miners down his pits by blatantly disregarding the times woefully inadequate safety legislation. He was, understandably, ostracised by his peers when he chose to not only deny any involvement in the massacre (It was he that ordered Parson Hayes to read the riot act) but then he also denied that anyone outside the militia was injured. His politival career was, fortunately, ended then.

I think I have said to you before on discussions about British Imperialism that the first victims, and probably last with Thatchers demolition of the unions, of the British Empire were the Englsh working class. Look up William Hulton if you want any further proof!

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 05:06 AM

Dave,
Thanks for that - funny - the minute I started to read your posting I though 'Thatcher'. Wouldn't William Hulton have made a great Home Secretary in her government?
When I lived in Manchester I did a great deal of work in The Central Library on The Chartists. For anybody interested, they had a reasonable collection of broadsides and hundreds of newspapers (on microfiche) from the period, many of them containing songs and poems.
Never got round to The John Ryland library, but I believe they have similar.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 06:19 AM

thanks Willa, it was good to read that news item

Picture of the original commerative plaque and proposed red plaque here


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 07:40 AM

The Guardian article says "We are very happy with what the city has done about the plaque," said Paul Fitzgerald, spokesman for the Peterloo massacre memorial campaign. "And it's a great victory for our group." I would have said it was the very least Manchester City could do!

The Free Trade Hall was a much more serious memorial to those people. The were demonstrating against, amongst other things, the reform of the Corn Laws which priced food off peoples tables. The act which finaly removed the last elements of those awful times was the Reform Act of 1832, allowing Free Trade and bringing food prices out of the control of the Government and landowners. The Free Trade Hall was built in the 1850s as a permanent reminder of the repeal of the corn laws and, although it was never said by the people funding it, a memorial to the people that died to bring about their repeal.

I was sickened and disgusted that the City council sold this wonderful building to private business and now all that remains is the facade. A sham, covering the so called Labour councils sell out to capitalism. The final straw, for which I was threatened with police action, was when a young homeless man selling the 'Big Issue' outside the Hotel that now hides behind the facade was 'moved on' by a liveried doorman. My language was not pleasent and I did later apologise to the doorman. It was not realy his fault.

I do now sing, on Harveys version, the last line
'Trendy wine bars stand today, on the fields of Peterloo'.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 08:00 AM

Sorry - They were demonstrating FOR the repeal of the corm laws of course! See - I get all riled up about it even now;-)

And yep, Jim, spent a good while in Central myself - Got the words and music for 2 Swinton May songs before the Chambers Book of Days came online. I have been in Rylands but only as a tourist. Magnificent building. The other interesting one is the Portico Library on Portland Street. I never knew it existed until we were invited to perform a Pace-Egg play there. Fascinating private library! The one I would really like to see is Chethams - Must have a wealth of music related manuscripts there!

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Willa
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 03:41 PM

Thanks, Emma, for the links. I did try to find the item in the guardian archives, but couldn't for some reason. The figure of 15 dead was said to include 4 who died later of their injuries.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: GUEST,chris hewitt
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:19 AM

Tractor [ acoustic electric rock band from Rochdale championed by John Peel] have reworked their 21 minute Peterloo Massacre suite of songs into a 40 plus minute suite of songs and are campaigning for a 190 th anniversary concert somewhere near St Peters Fields in August 2009

contact them by e mail chris hewitt ozitrecords@which.net


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE MEETING AT PETERLOO
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:42 PM

Here's the version that appears on the 2005 CD _Manchester Ballads_, arranged and performed by Mark Dowding and Chris Harvey. Others will doubtless know more than me about this CD and the book of ballads from which the texts are taken (compiled in 1983 for Manchester Education Committee). It's not a million miles from the version quoted above by Jim and Nutty, but with the chorus David remembered. I wonder if there's been a bit of editorial padding-out - the fourth and fifth verses of this version look a bit thin.

Incidentally, the 'cap of Liberty' was a red bonnet which symbolised the French Revolution, & which radical reformers used to carry aloft; one of the first things the Hussars did when they charged Peter's Field was to pull down the caps of Liberty which the demonstrators were displaying.

THE MEETING AT PETERLOO

Come lend an ear of pity while I my tale do tell.
It happened at Manchester a place that's known right well.
For to redress our wants and woes reformers took their way
A lawful meeting being called upon a certain day.

The sixteenth day of August eighteen hundred and nineteen
There many thousand people on every road were seen
From Stockport, Oldham, Ashton and from other places too,
It was the largest meeting that reformers ever knew.

Chorus:
With Henry Hunt we'll go, my boys, with Henry Hunt we'll go,
We'll mount the cap of Liberty, in spite of Nadin Joe.

Brave Hunt he was appointed that day to take the chair.
At one o'clock he did arrive, our shouts did rend the air.
Some females fair in white and green near the hustings stood
And little did we all expect to see such scenes of blood.

Scarcely had Hunt begun to speak, "Three cheers!" was all the cry
What to shout we little knew, but still we did reply
He saw the enemies, Be firm, said he, my friends.
But little did we expect what would be the end

Chorus

Our enemies so cruel, regardless of our woe
They did agree to force us from the plain of Peterloo.
But if that we had been prepared, or any cause for fear,
The regulars might have cleared the ground, and they stood in the rear.

Then to the fateful ground they went and thousands tumbled down
And many harmless females lay bleeding on the ground.
No time for flight was gave to us, still every road we fled.
But heaps on heaps were trampled down, some wounded and some dead.

Chorus

Brave Hunt was then arrested and several others too.
Then marched to the New Bailey, believe me it is true
Numbers there was wounded and many there was slain
Which makes the friends of those dear souls so loudly to complain.

Oh God look down upon us for Thou art just and true
And those that can no mercy show thy vengeance is their due.
Now quit this hateful mournful scene, look forward with this hope
That every murderer in this land may swing upon a rope.

Chorus

But soon reform shall spread around for sand the tide won't stay.
May all the filth in our land right soon be washed away.
And may sweet harmony from hence in this our land be found
May we be blessed with plenty in all the country round.

Chorus x2


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:00 AM

The version that Pip Radish has added above is complete as far as the verses go. The only thing that Chris and I added was the chorus from the song "With Henry Hunt We'll Go" as the only indication of a chorus on the ballad sheet was "So God bless Hunt &c" (which was a big help!). When we decided to record the 35 "Manchester Ballads" we set ourselves a remit of making the songs singable without too much fiddling about but we realised that in some cases the written words didn't scan very well and so a little trimming and rewriting was done to get the words to fit the tune or the song was extremely long and where this was the case we left some of the verses out if they didn't detract from the gist of the song. (Palmer refers to ballad singers employing this method in the notes so we felt justified in doing this) Occasionally the tune used by Harry Boardman and Roy Palmer wasn't quite right and we altered it to suit or in the case of three of the ballads we found the correct tunes. The best example of this was "The Calico Printer's Clerk" where Chris got in touch with Steve Gardham who supplied us with a copy of the original sheet music written by Harry Clifton and Charles Coote jr. The ballad describes the tune as "traditional - as sung by the Spinners" which was the version written by the Haliard folk group in the sixties.

By the way - in the version put in by Stewie at the top the line
"Then Riot Act were garbled out at Parson his command"
should read
"Then Riot Act were garbled out at Parson Hey's command"

Parson Hey was William Hey who was one of the Magistrates involved in sending the soldiers in under Joe Nadin's orders.

Cheers
Mark


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE MEETING AT PETERLOO
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:44 AM

Pip,
A bit of background to THE MEETING AT PETERLOO.
It came from a newspaper contemporary to the event which I found in Labour historian Eddie Frow's personal library in 1968 while researching local songs.
Unless there is another version, your text seems to have undergone several changes; the 'With Henry Hunt we'll go' chorus comes from another song which only partially survived and was on the Critics Group album 'Waterloo-Peterloo'
'Meeting' was included in Sam Richards' and Tish Stubbs' The English Folksinger (Collins 1979)
The text as I got it was:

1. Come lend an ear of pity while I my tale do tell.
It happened at Manchester a place you know right well.
For to redress our wants and woes reformers took their ways.
A lawful meeting being called upon a certain day.

The sixteenth day of August eighteen hundred and nineteen
There many thousand people on every road were seen
From Stockport, Oldham, Ashton and from other places too,
It was the largest meeting that reformers ever knew.

Brave Hunt he was appointed that day to take the chair.
At one-o-clock he did arrive, our shouts did rend the air.
Some females fair in white and green close by the hustings stood
And little did we all expect to see such scenes of blood.

Scarcely had Hunt begun to speak: Be firm, he said, My friends.
But little still did we expect what was to be the end
For around us all so hard and cruel regardless of our woes
Our enemies surrounded us on the plains of Peterloo.

The soldiers came unto the ground and thousands tumbled down
And many armless females lay bleeding on the ground.
No time for flight was gave to us, still every road we fled.
There were such heaps were trampled down, some wounded and some dead.

Brave Hunt was then arrested and several others too.
They marched us to the New Bailey, believe me it is true
And numbers there was wounded and many there was slain
Which makes the friends of those dear souls so loudly to complain.

Oh God above look down on those for Thou art just and true
And those that can no mercy show thy vengeance is their due.
Now quit this hateful mournful scene, look forward with this hope
That every murderer in this land may swing upon a rope.

But soon reform shall spread around for sand with the tide won't stay.
May all the filth that's in the land right soon be washed away.
And may sweet harmony from hence in this our land be found
May we with plenty all be blessed in all the country round.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:02 AM

Cheers, Mark. I'm good at spotting rewrites, particularly when they're not there!

Great CD, by the way.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,chris hewitt
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

Peterloo Massacre will be on bbc1 politics show sunday 2nd november 12-30 lunchtime in north west area tractor were filmed performing one of their peterloo songs which john peel encouraged them to record


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Bernard
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM

Ted Edwards has written a musical called 'Peterloo'... we're trying to find a production company who will stage it.

He'll be 70 in April 2009, so it would be good if we have something definite to report by then...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:06 AM

Manchester City Council Music Service published Harry Boardman's book of Manchester Ballads. It is still available, or was recently.Perhaps they might be a starting point in looking for a production of Ted's musical? Another angle is that a number of High Schools have "Preforming Arts" status perhaps they might be interested? Google for contacts.

Cheers

L in C


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:01 AM

Manchester City Council have a lot to answer for. For years they have systematically destroyed, or stood idly by while developers destroyed, the history and heritage of what should be the most interesting city in the UK.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM

Shame about Tommy Ducks


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: John J
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

Whatever happened to all those knickers?

JJ
(Lowering the tone quite successfully)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:07 PM

Not many people will see a link between John's search for lost knickers and Tommy Ducks. I would be happy for people to find their own solution(?) to the mystery of John's lost knickers and the shame associated with Tommy Ducks but others with a more detailed knowledge of Manchester history might want think otherwise.

L in C


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:22 AM

Unless there is another version, your text seems to have undergone several changes

Mark's explained the borrowed chorus. As far as the verses are concerned - particularly the expansion of verse 4 into two verses - apparently this is a genuine variant. (One change is mine - I'm sure those females were meant to be harmless, not 'armless'!)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Robin
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 04:05 AM

Pretty sure the Riot Act verse should read 'Parson Hey's command' William Hey was not actually Vicar of Rochdale at the time but was given the living soon after; possibly as a reward?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 04:39 AM

William Hey was only the mouthpiece apparantly. William Hulton actualy gave the orders for both the riot act to be read and the yeomanry to go in - against the advice of both the chief of police and the regular army. He was what is known as a bit of a bastard. Still, if Peterloo did one thing it finished his political career. Even his peers shunned him after and he died, apparantly, with no friends and still convinced he had done nothing wrong!

DeG


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Marting
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:08 AM

This is a message for Bernard who mentioned Ted Edwards writing a musical I would be interested to hear more about this can you get in touch? mgittin@ntlworld.com


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:20 AM

Marting of the famous Star Inn, Salford I guess?

L in C


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 12:00 PM

Sorry, Martin, I've only just seen this! We had hoped to get you involved, but the person who was supposed to contact you... didn't! Mind you, he didn't contact any of the others, either, and I ended up doing it all on my todd... Pity I didn't realise you were on here.

The musical is a reality, and is on Oldham Community Radio 99.7fm on Saturday August 15th at 7.00pm and again on Sunday August 16th at 10.00pm.

More info in this thread.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Guest: The Man from UNCOOL
Date: 22 May 12 - 11:17 AM

I'm surprised, with all this Northern bias to the thread, that no-one's thought to mention Geoff Higginbottom's cassette recording (I think it's his first album, can't recall title, might be eponymous) with the Kershaw version on it. I remember writing to him to clarify some of the lyrics I couldn't quite hear. One of the lines he gave (and this may be because he also learnt it from a recording) had "brisked up many a spine" at the end of the first verse.
I did learn it enough to sing without crib-sheets, but was looking it up to re-learn the forgotten bits. Not all the lyrics Stewie provided way back in 2000 'came back' to me, so Geoff H's version may differ subtly in quite a few respects. (From memory, he didn't credit HK, in ignorance not malice, for sure).
If DtG isn't miffed about it, I'll work on the ideas in his mooted last verse. Couple of places where it doesn't quite scan like the original, but it's certainly nearly there. Good work, and an interesting thread.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: stallion
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:42 AM

I remember doing work on this whilst at University, studying( amongst other era's) 19 century socio political history. Lordy it is a long time ago, My memorie of the source material and stuff I perused at the time left a few lasting thoughts on the matter Please don't ask me names, this was donkeys years ago.   As quite rightly said earlier it was the Manchester magistrates who were fearing a French style revolution who intervened, they swore in a lot, can't remember how many, special constables and called out the local militia, The Manchester Yeomanry ( their version of riot police. Governance was not as we know it, it was way before the centralisation of government, they were on their own, left to sort out their own problems as was the case in the irish famine, there simply was no mechanism for a national government to respond in any way. It is true that there was a troop of the 15th Hussars either sent or were stationed nearby but as I read it their CO deployed at St peters Petersfield to restrain the Manchester Yeomanry, it was reported that the (man. yeomanry )had spent most of the morning getting drunk in the inns, thereby hangs another tale, in a bid to cover up the carnage they imprisoned all the Journalists including one from The Times, he was so incensed that he wrote graphic and vitriolic incendiary accounts of what happened and exposed to the nation the ineptitude of the Manchester Governors and depth of unrest amongst the working classes. It is hard to tell if this had a galvanising effect on the workers I think it gave Parliament a wake up call, if anything I suppose it made magistrates plan for a response for such insurrections in their manors, whether it gave the Chartists more room for manoeuvre, that allowed the Plug plot riots to happen and for them to be crushed so effectively by local magistrates and local militia I don't know. It is interesting though that although the blueprint of magistrates allowing Militia to murder protesters was generally rolled out (see me using modern terms - it was more like what did buggins do) central government hadn't worked out a strategy tp prevent the plots and riots, indeed they seem to have washed their hands of it as it was tragically played out in Ireland two or three years later parliament neither had the political will nor any institutions in place to deal with it , it was left to the locals to sort it out. It is well documented that in all cases the deprivation that caused the rioting was the suffering across the board due to a loss of income. How each area dealt with it was down to the local administration, one might argue that since Englands population was rapidly urbanising and the 1832 Poor law act required local authorities to make provision for dealing with sick and poor in the sink holes of the workhouse that English towns and cities it prevented or covered up an famine on the scale of that in ireland. Irish land tenure was very different to English tenure and also being mainly agrarian subsistence farmers relied on the income generated by workers seasonal migration to the mainland to earn money (nothing has changed - poles, lithuanians etc picking crops in lincolnshire) The model worked, being subsistence farmers they only needed cash to pay the rent, the population avoided the Malthusian trap by being a net exporter of excess population, it wasn't necessary to build workhouses, they had no need of them, so, when the the potato blight struck in the middle of a UK wide economic recession history tells us that the only lesson learnt from Peterloo was that starving desperate people can be kept in place by the local militia atrocities, it is interesting that one will only see troops on the streets in Britain when the central government deems the local authority too morally corrupt to govern fairly and effectively so maybe nothing has changed,


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 12 - 08:38 AM

Following the demise of the Free Trade Hall (they kept the facade and built a hotel), John Howarth now sings:

"The Free Trade Hall should stand today on field at Peterloo"

A subtle, but powerful change!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Bernard
Date: 23 May 12 - 08:40 AM

OY! Who nicked my cookie? 'Guest' 08:38 AM above was me!


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