Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 12:45 PM

Sounds like one of John's :-)

I always liked his tales ending with a fairish height and peer gynt suite :-D

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 12:18 PM

John Howarth always used to refer to Harvey as a “derelict” poet and, when he was awarded his MBE, he said that he would have preferred a Royal Enfield but, thinking about it, he was too old to start keeping chickens.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 12:04 PM

Some history of the poem by Kershaw. http://www.oldhamtinkers.com/peterloo.html

Subject: With Henry Hunt We’ll Go (ref Peterloo)
From: GUEST,Bradfordian
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 11:40 AM

With Henry Hunt We’ll Go by Mary Humphries & Anahata
Recent recording

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 02:03 PM

Our mortgage was once with the Middleton building society. Their offices were right near the Boars Head. The only time I enjoyed doing mortgage stuff as we always called in the pub :-D

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 11:13 AM

In today's episode (Wednesday) of 'Pubs that Built Britain', the Hairy Bikers visited Middleton and the Old Boar's Head, which claims the title of the oldest original public house in England.

Sam Bamford often frequented the Boar’s Head where he held meetings and recitations of his poems in local dialect. In his book ‘Early Days’ (1849) he writes of his father Daniel fighting at the Boar’s Head in the ‘Thrashing Room’ (Barn). The fight lasted two hours and ended with Daniel’s powerful opponent being carried away by his supporters.

And Jennifer Reid sang Peterloo; words by Harvey Kershaw, set to music by John Howarth.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

Out of interest and pure coincidence I am re-reading "Night Watch" by Terry Pratchett. The plot involves armed soldiers killing unarmed civilians during a protest. I didn't notice the similarities last time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:20 AM

I was not thinking of going, Ray, but I'll ask the boss :-)

Talking of who, I have forwarded that link on to the Mrs, Henry. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:10 AM

Peterloo Descendants

"We know that in a number of towns Veterans of Peterloo met in the years after the massacre, but records from the time itself are limited in their nature and in what they reveal. So we are also fascinated to hear from anyone who believes they have a family link to Peterloo.”

Karen Shannon, Chief Executive of Manchester Histories, says, “Our approach to the 200th anniversary of the Peterloo Massacre is to connect and explore the threads of what happened then to the issues and world of today. Peterloo Descendants seems a fitting way to reflect upon the journey of democratic reform and the point that we are at 200 years later.”

If you think that your family had a presence in the events that unfolded on 16 August 1819 and would like to find out more about Peterloo Descendants and how you might get involved or follow the progress, please email Janine Hague (Project Manager for Peterloo 2019) with the details that you have available at [e-mail].

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:02 AM

Dave, you’re welcome. Are you going to the Stockport Library talk on 28/6? There were 31 (free) tickets left yesterday PM.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

Sorry, yes, it should have been John. And reinvesting should have been re-investigating. I blame poverty and old age :-)

Thanks for the info.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 05:29 AM

D'you mean John?

As you probably know, there were at least 7 lists of casualties and the bulk of the info comes from the Appendix to the "Manchester Central Committee Appointed for the Relief of Sufferers Report" published in 1820.

You'll find a summary of every report on a person by person basis in "The Casualties of Peterloo" by Michael L Bush (Prof.) Carnegie 2005.

Any large bookshop should have a copy for you to sneak a peek at should you not wish to invest. My copy cost me 15 quid several years ago.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 02:18 PM

Ray, we found the same details about Thomas but on reinvesting we cannot find James. Where did you get the info?

Oh, and 100 :-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 11:34 AM

People's History Museum; Peggy Seeger in conversation with Maxine Peake, Sat 23 March

PHM is delighted to welcome two very special guests for an event to celebrate the opening of our exhibition Disrupt? Peterloo and Protest. Join American folk singer Peggy Seeger and Peterloo film lead actor Maxine Peake in conversation, as they chat about creative protest, the Greenham Common Women’s Peace Camp, political songs and more, followed by questions from the audience.

Peggy will also be signing copies of her autobiography, First Time Ever: A Memoir, available to purchase at the event from the museum shop. Booking is required via Eventbrite, £20/£15 concessions (both plus booking fee) per person. The event is co-hosted by Greater Manchester & District Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) and PHM.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 08:01 PM

Fri, 28 June 2019 19:00 – 21:00 BST
Stockport Local Heritage Library, Wellington Road South, Stockport SK1 3RS

Peterloo: From Stockport to Manchester by Margaret Myerscough
An illustrated talk by the expert on Peterloo, Dr Robert Poole, on Peterloo and Stockport's connection to it with new material on both Stockport and Manchester.

Thursday 14 February 2019, 5.30pm - 6.00pm
People's History Museum, Spinningfields, Manchester

Experience a Living History performance from PHM’s inspiring programme and discover the story of the Peterloo Massacre, a major event in Manchester’s history, and a defining moment for Britain’s democracy. Meet James, a naive businessman who wants to find out the truth about the Peterloo Massacre. Join him as he speaks to eye witnesses of the events at St Peter’s Field in 1819 to find out how and why this day went down in history.

Part of PHM’s year long programme exploring the past, present and future of protest, marking 200 years since the Peterloo Massacre; a major event in Manchester’s history, and a defining moment for Britain’s democracy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 07:26 AM

Aye - We saw that Ray but thanks anyway. We also figured out that Thomas had moved out of the Stockport address to be apprenticed to one of his uncles as a baker in Manchester. Mrs G is pretty good at things like that :-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:49 AM

Dave -

1) Thomas Goodwin was from 11 Pump Street, Manchester and was bruised and trampled on by the crowd for which he received 10/- in relief.

2) John Goodwin was from Carrington Fields, Stockport (aged 28 with one child). His right leg was hurt by being trampled on and he received a violent blow from the butt end of a musket by a foot soldier for which he received £1 in relief

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 04:35 AM

The high point of Bamford's involvement and influence in radical politics was between 1816 and 1821. The remainder of his long life — after his quarrels with fellow radicals — is perhaps anticlimatic. About 1826 he became correspondent of a London morning newspaper, and having ceased to be a weaver by employment, he incurred some dislike or distrust on the part of his old fellow-workmen. His anti-Chartist attitudes and boundless egotism counted against him with many of his fellows. Yet he always pleaded their cause as opportunity served, even when, as a special constable during the Chartist agitation, he incurred the downright enmity of his own class.

Late in life he became increasingly cantankerous and jealous of his prestige as "the oldest living reformer" and as late as 1861 he believed government spies were keeping him under surveillance for his dangerous politics. By this time he had become one of "the prize platform bores of Lancashire political life", noting bitterly in his diary that someone else had been invited to give a lecture on parliamentary reform in Oldham Town Hall: I was certainly much hurt to see that a young man, a young Parliamentary reformer, should be preferred to give a lecture on that subject whilst an old veteran like myself, who must have large knowledge of the subject from experience, and was on the verge of distress from want of encouragement in the way of lecturing, should be passed by. (May 13th 1861) From http://gerald-massey.org.uk/bamford/

Thus he sung till he deed, an' his soul-stirrin' strains,
    Never failed to encourage an' bless;
For he loved to rejoice wi' thoose hearts 'at rejoiced,
    An' sorrow wi' thoose i' distress.
God bless him, an' iv ther's a spot up aboon,
    Wheer dwell th' noble-minded an' pure,
Wheer th' songsters are gathered to strike up a tune,
    Th' owd brid's perched amongst 'em we're sure!

By Samuel Laycock

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:57 AM

Just found out my wife's 4x great grandfather Thomas Goodwin and his brother John were both injured at Peterloo. Thomas's son James married a lass from Whitby which is odd because the family were all from Stockport and people didn't wander much in those days. I first heard the song at a Whitby folk festival. Life's full of little coincidences:-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:47 PM

Manchester City News, 19th July, 1924 SAM BAMFORD Romance of a Man of Action

Then Peterloo occurred, with its cuts and bruises inflicted by the swords of the yeomanry. Bamford was present as leader of the Middleton contingent. That was enough for Nadin. The police banged on Bamford's door, which was opened when they said who they were and what they wanted. They entered the dark room, police and soldiers. The drawers were rummaged, his box was explored, and all his books and papers were tumbled into a shawl, to be carried away. Handcuffs were ordered and put on.

This is how Bamford describes the scene: The order was given to move; my wife burst into tears. I tried to console her: said I should soon be with her again. I ascended into the street, and shouted "Hunt and liberty." "Hunt and liberty" responded my brave little helpmate, whose spirit was now roused. One of the policemen, with a Pistol in his hand, swearing a deep oath, said he would blow out her brains if she shouted again." Blow away was the reply. "Hunt and liberty." "Hunt for ever."

The woman's brains remained in their proper place, the procession moved off, and Bamford the Reformist was on his way to gaol again.

This time he found himself a prisoner in Lincoln Castle, where he became came seriously ill. His wife was allowed to visit him, and a room was set apart for their joint accommodation. At the end of the agreed period she returned to Middleton, but as Bamford's health grew worse she returned to Lincoln Castle to nurse him back to health. Under her wifely treatment he soon recovered his wonted strength. When the term of his twelve months' imprisonment ended he was released, and once more recognisances of rood behaviour were entered into. Then it was the open street of a cathedral city, and after that the open country. They were a long way from home, means of travel were not plentiful; but Bamford and his wife were young and of a cheerful spirit. They started to walk home. From http://gerald-massey.org.uk/bamford/

Lines, Addressed To My Wife From The King's Bench Prison, May 15, 1820 by Samuel Bamford

I never will forget thee, love!
Though in a prison far I be;
I never will forget thee, love!
And thou wilt still remember me!

I never will forget thee, love!
When wakes on me the morning light;
And thou shalt ever present be,
When cometh down the cloud of night!

I never will forget thee, love!
When summer sheds her golden ray;
And thou shall be my comforter
Amid the winter's cheerless day!

Oh! They may bind but cannot break,
This heart, so full of thine and thee;
Which liveth only for YOUR sake,
And the high cause of LIBERTY!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:02 PM

I've been rehearsing with Pete Coe today for our 'Road to Peterloo' show. As Jim says, there's a wealth of contemporaneous songs and verses about the event, many of which can be found in Alison Morgan's book published last year, 'Ballads and Songs of Peterloo', which has been a very important source for us.

One of the songs was written by a John Stafford, an eyewitness to the massacre, and is full of vivid detail of the events. There are some really biting satirical pieces as well, describing the bravery of the yeomanry in slaughtering unarmed men, women and children, etc.

I'd also recommend Michael Bush's 'The Casualties of Peterloo', if you want some distressing tales of what happened to actual people, as opposed to just an amorphous crowd.

Incidentally, I have the impression that Sam Bamford didn't just decide that violent confrontation was pointless - he took on a new 'respectable' personage, becoming a constable and to some extent rewriting history to downplay his own role as a radical.

Subject: Lyr Add: SHURAT WEAVER'S SONG (Samuel Laycock)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:36 AM

"Two Cocks on the Dunghill "
Thanks for that Henry - will look it out
Bamford was, of course, a poet hose verses recorded some of the events of the time
SAMUEL BAMFORD'S POEMS
For me the dialect sometimes jars, but they are I believe an import additions to our social history

This is IMO a remarkable commentary on the effect the American Civil War was having on the lives of the Lancashire cotton weavers - it says more about the subject in a few verses as a whole chapter could
Another example of a working man as a song-maker
'Shurat' was the rough, inferior cotton imported from Surat, in India, that tore the weaver's fingers to shreds as they handled it.
Jim Carroll


TH’ SHURAT WEAVER’S SONG. Tune Rory O'More.
BY SAMUEL LAYCOCK,

Confound it! aw ne’er wur woven afore;
Mi back's wolny bracken. mi fingers are sore;
Aw’vo bin starin' an' rootin. among this Shurat,
Till awm very near gotten as hloint as a bat.

Every toimo aw go in wi' mi cuts to owd Joe,
He gi’es me a cursin', an' bates mo an' o’;
Aw've ft warp I’ one loom wi' boath selvedges marr'd,
An't' other's as bad, for he's dressed it to’ hard.

Aw wish aw wur for enough oft', eawl o’ th’ road.
For o' weavrin’ this rubbitch awm getten reet stowd ;
Aw've nowt i' this world to lie deawn on but straw,
For aw've only eight shillin' this fortni't to draw.

Neaw aw Imven't mi family under mi hat,
Aw've a woife au' six ehilder to keep eawt o’ that;
So awm rayther among it, at present, yo see,
If over a fellow wur puzzlcd, it's me !

lv one turns eawt to steal, folk' ’II co' me a thief.
An' aw conno' put th' cheek on to ax for relief;
As aw said i’ owar heawse t’ othor neot to mi woife,
Aw never did nowt o' this soart f mi loifo.

One doe’n’t loike everyone t'know heaw they are,
But we'n suffered so long thro’ this 'Merica war,
'At there’s lots o' factory folk gotten t' fur end,
An* they'll soon be knocked o’er iv these toimes doesn't mendf

Oh dear! iv yond Yankees could only just see
Hoaw they're clammitt’ au' starvin' poor weavers, loike me,
Aw think they'd soon settle their bother, an’ strive
To send us some cotton, to keep us alive.

There’s theawsands o' folk just i' th’ best o' their days,
Wi' traces o' want plainly wen i‘ their face ;
An’ a future afore 'em as dreary an’ dark.
For when th' cotton gets done we shall o' be beawt wark.

We'n bin patient an' quiet as long as we con,
Th' bits o' thiings we had by us are welly o' gone ;
Aw'vo bin trampin' so long mi owd shoon are worn eawt,
Au' mi halliday clooas aro o' on 'em " up th’ spoawt.”

It wur nobbut th' last Monday aw sowd a good bed,—
Nay very near gan it.—to gel us some bread ;
Afore thaw boil toimes cum aw used to be fat,
But neaw, bless yo're life. awm as thin as a lat !

Mony a toime i’ mi loife aw’vo seen things lookin' feaw,
But never as awkard as what they are neaw ;
Iv there isn't some help for us factory folk soon,
Awm sure we shall all be knock'd reet eawt o’ tune.

Come, give us a lift, yo' ’at han owt to give.
An' help yo're poor brothers on’ sisters to live;
Be kind, an* be tender to th' needy an poor.
An’ we'll promise when the toimes ineud we'll ax yo' no moor.

The Shurat Weaver’s Song beautifully, if tragically, describes the infamous Lancashire Cotton Famine of the 1860’s, and its impact on workers and their families. A cry for support in hard times, it speaks of poverty and solidarity within the wider context of a globalised textile trade, war and the cotton industry’s relationship with slavery.

The poem was written in the depths of the American Civil War (1861-1865). At that time Lancashire’s cotton mills were reliant on cotton from the plantations in the American South. The war, and in particular a blockade of the export of cotton by the Union in the North of America - “The Yankees” led by Abraham Lincoln, badly affected the supplies of raw cotton into Lancashire. Many mills attempted to maintain production by importing a replacement cotton from Surat in India. This “shorter” cotton proved unsuitable for the existing machines and conditions in Lancashire Mills. “ It was a nightmare - well nigh impossible to weave as it kept breaking”.

Although in this poem the protagonist asks for the Yankees to end the blockade, in reality despite the mass unemployment endured by communities during the “famine”, many of the Lancashire mill workers came out in solidarity to the Union in the North of America. The Confederates in the south believed that international pressure from countries reliant on their cotton would break the blockade - that economics would prevail and “Cotton is King”. However, this strategy backfired. In 1862 citizens of Manchester famously wrote a letter of support to Abraham Lincoln, “to fight the Confederates, abolish slavery and continue the blockade.”

Samuel Laycock (1826-1893), originally from Marsden, Yorkshire moved to Stalybridge where he worked as a cotton weaver and cloth looker and following the famine as a librarian. His piece maybe inspired by William Billington’s earlier poem “Th’ Surat Weaver’s Song”. Lancastrian Billington also worked in the cotton industry as a doffer and weaver.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 06:55 PM

Samuel Bamford (28 February 1788 – 13 April 1872), was an English radical and writer, who was born in Middleton, Lancashire.

Bamford was one of five children born to Daniel Bamford, a muslin weaver and part-time teacher, and his wife, Hannah. After his father withdrew him from Manchester Grammar School, Bamford became a weaver, and then a warehouseman in Manchester. In 1817 he was imprisoned in the New Bailey Prison in Salford on suspicion of high treason, on account of his political activities. From there he was taken to London and examined before the Privy Council presided over by Lord Sidmouth as Home Secretary. After promising to be of future good behaviour, he was released and was then able to return to live in his cottage at Middleton with his wife Jemima.

In August 1819, Bamford led a group from Middleton to St Peter's Fields, to attend a meeting pressing for parliamentary reform and the repeal of the Corn Laws. There they witnessed the Peterloo Massacre, and Bamford was arrested and charged with treason. Although the evidence showed that neither he nor any of his group had been involved in the violence, he was found guilty of inciting a riot and sentenced to a year in Lincoln gaol. The experience of the massacre made a deep impression on Bamford, convincing him that state power would always succeed against radical militancy. He came to be seen as a voice for radical reform, but opposed to any activism that involved physical force. From Wikipedia.

Bamford's walk is repeated every year;

To mark the anniversary of the Peterloo Massacre you are invited to join in a commemorative walk from Middleton following the route of Middleton's own Sam Bamford from Barrowfields to St Peter's Field in Manchester as he and 6,000 followers did on 16th August 1819.

We will walk via the old cemetery (with a brief pause at Sam Bamford's grave and monument) before following the route he described in detail in his autobiography 'Passages In The Life Of A Radical' to join other marchers as we approach Manchester, culminating in a solemn commemoration in Albert Square at 1pm.

Meet at 8.45am for a prompt start at 9am from the Blue Plaque marking the original assembly point in Barrowfields by St. Leonards Church. The walk is led by Martin Gittins.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 06:09 PM

Here's another revealing book about Henry Hunt;

Two Cocks on the Dunghill - William Cobbett and Henry Hunt: Their friendship, feuds and fights by Penny Young; paperback, published by Twopenny Press 2009.

"Two giants dominated English popular politics a couple of centuries ago - William Cobbett and Henry Hunt. Each had a great personality, a colossal ego and a profound sense of self-righteousness. They were allies and rivals."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:56 PM

I did some work for a committee which wa set up to commemorate the 150th anniversary of Peterloo just before I moved down to London - one of the songs I found is above (twice for some reason)
While I was researching I was staggered at the number of songs being written at the time of the events - Manchester Central Library had aa large collection of Chartist Newspapers on Microfilm and many of them had regular columns of songs sent in by the workers
I've come to the conclusion that those songs alongside those in Terry Moylan's massive 'Indignant Muse', the local songs we recorded in Clare and the Traveller-made ones are a strong indication that working people, far from being 'too busy earning a living', were instinctive poets and song makers who found it necessary to capture their experiences in verse, which makes their compositions and important addition to our history and self-knowldge
They weren't by any means 'deathless verse', but many of them carried information that would have otherwise have been lost

I must say that I was more than a little stunned by Mike Leigh's depiction of Henry Hunt as a pig-headed self promoter and his brutal treatment of Sam Bamford - must read Joyce Marlowe's book again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:33 PM

Henry Hunt allegedly spent the night at the Red Lion (long since demolished) in Hazel Grove on the way to the Peterloo hustings - maybe my GGGGrandfather met him there?

They had a folk club there at one time. I remember playing it back in the 70s.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 10:15 AM

Fascinating stuff, Henry. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 10:08 AM

Some comments on; THE YEOMAN’S SONG From: Jim Dixon Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:28 AM

The Yeoman's Song takes the side of the authorities desperately resisting the demands of the radicals and the masses for political change.

The Manchester and Salford Yeomanry cavalry was a short-lived yeomanry regiment formed in response to social unrest in northern England in 1817. The volunteer regiment became notorious for its involvement in the 1819 Peterloo Massacre. On 16 August 1819, Major Trafford and Lieutenant Colonel Guy L'Estrange, the overall military commander in Manchester, were sent notes by the chairman of the Lancashire and Cheshire Magistrates, local coalowner William Hulton, urging them to dispatch troops to a public meeting on voting reform being addressed by the orator Henry Hunt. "Sir, as chairman of the select committee of magistrates, I request you to proceed immediately to no. 6 Mount Street, where the magistrates are assembled. They consider the Civil Power wholly inadequate to preserve the peace. I have the honour, & c. Wm. Hulton."

The notes were handed to two horsemen standing by. The Manchester and Salford Yeomanry were stationed just a short distance away in Portland Street, and so received their note first. Trafford dispatched 116 officers and men of the Manchester and Salford Yeomanry who immediately drew their swords and galloped towards St Peter's Field. One trooper, in a frantic attempt to catch up, knocked down a woman in Cooper Street, causing the death of her child when he was thrown from her arms; two-year-old William Fildes was the first casualty of Peterloo. From Wikipedia

Verse 4. Shall Cobler Preston[1] mend our cause
Or Watson[2] purge the nation?
Shall Brewer Hunt[3] pollute the laws
With noxious fermentation?

1. [Preston] Probably the author of this book. I have failed to find a concise article about him.
Thomas Preston (1774–1850) was born in London. Preston was apprenticed first to a silversmith and then to a shoemaker. Following Pitt's repressive legislation after the outbreak of the French Revolution, Preston went to Chatham to avoid imprisonment.

As the secretary of the Spenceans, it was he who called the famous meeting at Spa Fields to petition the Prince Regent for relief. James Watson and Arthur Thistlewood played the leading role in organising this meeting. Preston organised support among the unemployed silk-weavers of Spitalfields. At the second Spa Fields meeting on 2 December 1816, Thistlewood, Preston, and Watson's son tried to start an armed rising and led a section of the crowd into the City, where they were soon dispersed. Preston was among those arrested and one of the four charged with high treason, but the acquittal of Watson after the unmasking of an agent provocateur, John Castle, led to the dropping of the charges against the rest.

Watson, Thistlewood, and Preston led a London group of ultra-radicals and revolutionaries. Late in 1819 they were the leaders of what became known as the Cato Street conspiracy to assassinate members of the government. Preston avoided prosecution when the attempt failed in February 1820. http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/marjie.htm

2. Probably James Watson
James Watson (21 September 1799 – 29 November 1874) was an English radical publisher, activist and Chartist. In February 1823 Watson was charged with selling a copy of Elihu Palmer's Principles of Nature to a police agent and was sent to Coldbath Fields Prison for a year. In 1832 Watson was arrested, but escaped imprisonment, for organising a procession and a feast on the day the government had ordained a "general fast" on account of the cholera epidemic. In June 1837 Watson was on the committee appointed to draw up the bills embodying the Chartist demands. From Wikipedia

3. Probably Henry Hunt
Henry Hunt ran a brewery at Jacob’s Wells in Bristol, the Clifton Genuine Beer Brewery, from at least 1807 to 1809. Hunt described his subsequent clash with the Excise over Wood’s colouring in his memoirs, written while he was in jail in 1820 for “sedition” after the events at St Peter’s Field. http://zythophile.co.uk/2018/11/22/the-porter-brewer-and-the-peterloo-massacre/

After his rousing speeches at the mass meetings held in Spa Fields in London in 1816, Henry Hunt became known as the "Orator", a nickname attributed to Robert Southey. In 1830 he became a Member of Parliament for Preston, defeating the future British Prime Minister Edward Smith-Stanley (14th Earl of Derby). Preston was unusual - and perhaps unique - at that time in giving the vote to all adult male residents. After his victory, Hunt and an estimated crowd of 16,000 people marched to Manchester and held a meeting at the site of the Peterloo Massacre. In 1832 he presented the first petition in support of women's suffrage to Parliament. From Wikipedia and Spartacus Educational

They were dangerous times! James Watson and Henry Hunt were both imprisoned for their radical activities. Remarkably, Thomas Preston appears to have escaped imprisonment, despite his role in armed uprisings.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:01 AM

I was, Jim. The one mentioned by Henry is the song and, yes Henry, it was that one :-)

Must brush up on the Harvey Kershaw/John Howarth one for airing over this year in particular.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:42 AM

Sorry - I thought Dave Was talking about th Micke Leigh film 'Peterloo'
Ji, Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:22 PM

From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Jan 19 - 12:42 PM
I have not seen the new film yet but I did see Janet Russell last night and she did that song!

I presume you mean St Peter's Fields by Jim Woodland.

I heard the Oldham Tinkers sing Peterloo on Friday night. The late Harvey Kershaw MBE of dialect poetry renown penned this for the Oldham Tinkers. John Howarth added the tune. First published by Topic 1971 Oldham’s Burning Sands TOPIC TSDL206 STEREO.

From the Oldham Tinkers website. An Introduction to The Oldham Tinkers (Topic) now available, together with five LPs digitally remastered on CD.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:29 PM

Digressing slightly, though same place (sometimes) but a little later, if you haven't seen 'Young Karl Marx' don't miss it
The scenes in Manchester are stunning and Engles, as the wealty son of a mill-owner, is brilliant
Best political film ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:22 PM

"I have not seen the new film "
Brilliant but let down by a somewhat stilted script
Well worth the trip
Found the solo singing, what there was of it, a little 'folkie'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:21 PM

Having read a great deal about the subject - my GGGGrandfather was one of the wounded - I have mixed feelings about the film. The story it told was fairly accurate, as far as it goes. It did however ignore both the events which took place during the evening following the masacre and the attendance of people from many areas surrounding Manchester.

I was also surprised at the lack of gore portrayed during the masacre itself; the amount of which certainly does not correspond with contemoraneous accounts.

I also found some of the filming rather amusing. E.G. There were reports of attendees having drilled on the moors prior to the event. Yes, this activity was portrayed, but the filming was clearly done on high level moors rather than the low level moors which surround the Manchester catchment area.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 12:42 PM

I have not seen the new film yet but I did see Janet Russell last night and she did that song!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 04:13 AM

I did mention William Hulton way up the thread. A thoroughly nasty piece of work whose career was ended by his actions that day. He also caused the deaths of 340 boys and men in the Pretoria Pit disaster by refusing to invest in new safety lamps when he owned the mine. As a magistrate, he also sentenced a 12-year-old boy to death. As the article says, he was going for 100% evil!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 03:48 PM

BBC News 21 October 2018 by Paul Burnell
Peterloo: The man who ordered a massacre

In 1819, a troop of sabre-wielding cavalrymen charged into a huge workers' rights protest in Manchester. The carnage that followed is the subject of a new film starring Maxine Peake. But who was the man who ordered the Peterloo Massacre?

Peterloo

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 08:45 AM

Visit the national museum of democracy, the People's History Museum in Manchester, and discover the Peterloo Massacre of 1819, where the museum’s story starts. This major event in Manchester’s history and a defining moment in Britain’s democracy is explored in a new blockbuster film by renowned director Mike Leigh – research for which was done using PHM’s collections.

Peterloo – in cinemas Friday 2 November

PHM is marking the bicentenary of Peterloo through a programme of events and exhibitions that will explore the changing face of protest: past, present and future. Commemorations have begun with a collaboration with internationally acclaimed artist Axel Void creating a stunning piece of street art on the museum’s riverside wall in tribute to Peterloo and its continuing relevance today.

PHM are excited to be in partnership with Workers’ Educational Association to offer some fascinating new courses. Explore The Masque of Anarchy, a poem written in response to Peterloo by Percy Bysshe Shelley, with the famous lines ‘Rise Like Lions!’ and ‘We Are Many! They Are Few!’.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 02:23 PM

Reviewed this week;
Peterloo - The story of the Manchester Massacre
By Jacqueline Riding, the former Palace of Westminster curator who served as a historical adviser on Mike Leigh's film.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE YEOMAN'S SONG (from Bodleian)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:28 AM

The Bodleian Library classifies this song as having the Peterloo Massacre as one of its themes, although the reference is rather obscure: Johnson Ballads fol. 240a:

THE YEOMAN’S SONG.

1. When first I joined the patriot band,
And trimm'd my Yeoman's jacket,
A foreign foe defied the land,
And menac'd to attack it.

CHORUS. Then right and left, and threes about,
We'll boldly meet the danger,
Says I, “I’ll see this business out,
“As Volunteer or Ranger.”

2. By flood and field for many a day,
No welfare e’er was keener,
Till Bony fairly ran away,
To pout at St. Helena.

CHORUS: With right and left, and threes about,
We boldly met the danger,
Says I, “I’ve seen this business out,
“As Volunteer or Ranger.”

3. Once more I mount at duty's call,
(My horse in good condition,)
I will not see old England fall
A martyr to sedition.

CHORUS: Then right and left, and threes about,
We’ll boldly meet the danger,
Says I, “I’ll see this business out,
“As Volunteer or Ranger.”

4. Shall Cobler Preston^[1] mend our cause
Or Watson^[2] purge the nation?
Shall Brewer Hunt^[3] pollute the laws
With noxious fermentation?

CHORUS. No-right and left, and threes about,
We’ll boldly meet the danger,
“I vow to see this business out,
“As Volunteer or Ranger.”

5. I will not grudge my wife her tea,
In spite of all these wise men;
Good ale has still some charms for me,
“Tho' gauged by the excisemen.”

CHORUS. No—right and left, and threes about,
We'll cheerly meet the danger,
Says I, “I’ll see this business out,
“As Volunteer or Ranger.”

6. I’ll keep the way my father trod,
The way that I was born in,
My King, my Country, and my God
I’ll love for all their scorning.

CHORUS. Then right and left, and threes about,
We’ll boldly meet the danger,
Says I, “I’ll see this business out,
“As Volunteer or Ranger.”

Newcastle. Printed by Edw. Walker.

* * *

1. Probably the author of this book. I have failed to find a concise article about him.

2. Probably James Watson

3. Probably Henry Hunt

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM

I'm really looking forward to the new TV production. Maxine Peake is a great actor and if the trailer is anything to go by it should have some good music too.

Subject: Lyr Add: PETERLOO ("See! see! where Freedom's...")
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:45 AM

Found in Curiosities of Street Literature (London: Reeves and Turner, 1871) page 98:


PETERLOO

See! see! where Freedom's noblest champion stands,
Shout! shout! illustrious patriot band,
Here grateful millions their generous tribute bring,
And shouts for freedom make the welkin ring,
While fell corruption, and her hellish crew
The blood-stained trophies gained Peterloo.

Soon shall fair freedom’s sons their right regain,
Soon shall all Europe join the hallowed strain,
Of Liberty and Freedom, Equal Rights and Laws,
Heaven’s choicest blessing crown this glorious cause,
While meanly tyrants, crawling minions too,
Tremble at their feats performed on Peterloo.

Britons, be firm, assert your rights, be bold,
Perish like heroes, not like slaves be sold,
Firm and unite, bid millions be free,
Will to your children glorious liberty,
While cowards—despots long may keep in view,
And silent contemplate the deeds on Peterloo.


The Bodleian collection contains several broadside copies of this song. I have not compared them in detail:
2806 c.13(64)
Firth b.28(33e)
Firth c.16(18)
Firth c.16(20)
Harding B 11(621)
Harding B 16(203b)

Subject: Lyr Add: THE SONG OF SLAUGHTER (Samuel Bamford)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:04 AM

From Miscellaneous Poetry by Samuel Bamford “weaver of Middleton, Lancashire, lately imprisoned in the Castle of Lincoln” (T. Dolby, at the Britannia Press, 1821), page 82:


THE SONG OF SLAUGHTER
Words by Samuel Bamford; tune: “Sicilian Mariner’s Hymn.”

PART FIRST

Parent of the wide creation,
We would counsel ask of thee,
Look upon a mighty nation,
Rousing from its slavery.

If to men our wrongs are stated,
We are but the faster bound,
All our actions reprobated,
No redress for us is found.

Thou hast made us to inherit
Strength of body, daring mind;
Shall we rise, and in thy spirit,
Tear away the chains that bind?

Chains, but forged to degrade us,
O, the base indignity!
In the name of God, who made us,
We will perish, or be free.

PART SECOND.

Can we e'er forget our brothers,
Cold and gory as they lay?
Can we e'er forgive the others,
For their cruel treachery?

Ah, behold their sabres gleaming,
Never, never known to spare;
See the flood of slaughter streaming;
Hear the cries that rend the air.

Youth and valour naught availed,
Naught availed beauty's prayer,
Even the lisping infant failed
To arrest the ruin there.

Give the ruffians time to glory,
Theirs is but a waning day,
We have yet another story
For the page of history.

Lincoln Castle, July 13th, 1820.

[A version of this, with several misspellings and typos, appeared as a broadside. I suspect there are several other poems in the same book that could be turned into songs.]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 10:53 AM

You "that" old Brian!

Yes, I will, but we're decorating the hall stairs and landing at the moment. Life still goes on.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:23 PM

Contact me via my website, Ray? BTW, I remember you from Poynton, never mind the Deanwater!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 10:31 AM

We ought to have a chat about this sometime Brian. My GGGGrandfather was compensated to the tune of £5 for the sabre wounds he received to his head and hands. He was a calico printer and ould have staggered all the way back to Hazel Grove (or Bullock Smithy as it was still known then) with them.

Ray (from over the hill in Chapel) - (ex Deanwater days!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 07:49 AM

That Jim Woodland song is a good 'un too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 07:36 AM

And look out for 'The Road to Peterloo', a presentation of broadside ballads from the time (many of them newly discovered), featuring Pete Coe, Laura Smyth and Yours Truly, working on material right now and touring in 2019.

Road to Peterloo Facebook page.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: JHW
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 07:01 AM

Thanks for the reminder 'Jim Woodland's song, 'St.Peter's Fields' (sung by Janet Russell), is a modern, but very traditional-sounding song.'
Always intended to learn this by next year.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 05:25 AM

From the Manchester Evening News;

The first trailer for Peterloo, which tells the story of one of the bloodiest days in the city’s history, has been released ahead of its premiere later this year.

The minute-long preview hints at the difficult conditions faced by Manchester’s spinners and weavers, which culminated in more than 60,000 people gathering in St Peter’s Field for a peaceful protest for reform, on August 16, 1819.

The workers can be heard chanting ‘liberty or death’ before the trailer abruptly ends ahead of the pivotal moment a cavalry charges into the crowd, killing 15 and injuring more than 800 people.

Salford born film maker Leigh has assembled a stellar cast for the film, his first since Oscar nominated Mr Turner biopic in 2014. It features Maxine Peake, as well as Rory Kinnear as radical speaker Henry Hunt, alongside a roster of Manchester born acting talent, including David Bamber, Nico Mirallegro and Pearce Quigley.

To be released on 2nd November

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Rick Rybicki
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 03:00 PM

To "Dave the Gnome"
Hi Dave, I found your verse for Peterloo Massacre. I usually sing it at this time of year. I took the liberty of amending it in true folksong tradition. Hope you don't mind. As a penance for ripping off your verse, I wrote an updated "last" verse which you can use or amend as you wish. Here are the two verses....

This fine hall it stood in tact 'till the new millennium turned
Built with cotton money to remember lessons learned
But the rich developers wanted the land
On that site a hotel was planned
Where concerts played, brash bars now stand, and history is spurned

Now each year in August marchers join in protest still
As folk from cotton towns around demand both strong and shrill
For a monument in memory to
The folk who died at Peterloo
In unity with strength anew, their goal they shall fulfil.

Best wishes, Rick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Bernard
Date: 23 May 12 - 08:40 AM

OY! Who nicked my cookie? 'Guest' 08:38 AM above was me!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 12 - 08:38 AM

Following the demise of the Free Trade Hall (they kept the facade and built a hotel), John Howarth now sings:

"The Free Trade Hall should stand today on field at Peterloo"

A subtle, but powerful change!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: stallion
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:42 AM

I remember doing work on this whilst at University, studying( amongst other era's) 19 century socio political history. Lordy it is a long time ago, My memorie of the source material and stuff I perused at the time left a few lasting thoughts on the matter Please don't ask me names, this was donkeys years ago.   As quite rightly said earlier it was the Manchester magistrates who were fearing a French style revolution who intervened, they swore in a lot, can't remember how many, special constables and called out the local militia, The Manchester Yeomanry ( their version of riot police. Governance was not as we know it, it was way before the centralisation of government, they were on their own, left to sort out their own problems as was the case in the irish famine, there simply was no mechanism for a national government to respond in any way. It is true that there was a troop of the 15th Hussars either sent or were stationed nearby but as I read it their CO deployed at St peters Petersfield to restrain the Manchester Yeomanry, it was reported that the (man. yeomanry )had spent most of the morning getting drunk in the inns, thereby hangs another tale, in a bid to cover up the carnage they imprisoned all the Journalists including one from The Times, he was so incensed that he wrote graphic and vitriolic incendiary accounts of what happened and exposed to the nation the ineptitude of the Manchester Governors and depth of unrest amongst the working classes. It is hard to tell if this had a galvanising effect on the workers I think it gave Parliament a wake up call, if anything I suppose it made magistrates plan for a response for such insurrections in their manors, whether it gave the Chartists more room for manoeuvre, that allowed the Plug plot riots to happen and for them to be crushed so effectively by local magistrates and local militia I don't know. It is interesting though that although the blueprint of magistrates allowing Militia to murder protesters was generally rolled out (see me using modern terms - it was more like what did buggins do) central government hadn't worked out a strategy tp prevent the plots and riots, indeed they seem to have washed their hands of it as it was tragically played out in Ireland two or three years later parliament neither had the political will nor any institutions in place to deal with it , it was left to the locals to sort it out. It is well documented that in all cases the deprivation that caused the rioting was the suffering across the board due to a loss of income. How each area dealt with it was down to the local administration, one might argue that since Englands population was rapidly urbanising and the 1832 Poor law act required local authorities to make provision for dealing with sick and poor in the sink holes of the workhouse that English towns and cities it prevented or covered up an famine on the scale of that in ireland. Irish land tenure was very different to English tenure and also being mainly agrarian subsistence farmers relied on the income generated by workers seasonal migration to the mainland to earn money (nothing has changed - poles, lithuanians etc picking crops in lincolnshire) The model worked, being subsistence farmers they only needed cash to pay the rent, the population avoided the Malthusian trap by being a net exporter of excess population, it wasn't necessary to build workhouses, they had no need of them, so, when the the potato blight struck in the middle of a UK wide economic recession history tells us that the only lesson learnt from Peterloo was that starving desperate people can be kept in place by the local militia atrocities, it is interesting that one will only see troops on the streets in Britain when the central government deems the local authority too morally corrupt to govern fairly and effectively so maybe nothing has changed,

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Guest: The Man from UNCOOL
Date: 22 May 12 - 11:17 AM

I'm surprised, with all this Northern bias to the thread, that no-one's thought to mention Geoff Higginbottom's cassette recording (I think it's his first album, can't recall title, might be eponymous) with the Kershaw version on it. I remember writing to him to clarify some of the lyrics I couldn't quite hear. One of the lines he gave (and this may be because he also learnt it from a recording) had "brisked up many a spine" at the end of the first verse.
I did learn it enough to sing without crib-sheets, but was looking it up to re-learn the forgotten bits. Not all the lyrics Stewie provided way back in 2000 'came back' to me, so Geoff H's version may differ subtly in quite a few respects. (From memory, he didn't credit HK, in ignorance not malice, for sure).
If DtG isn't miffed about it, I'll work on the ideas in his mooted last verse. Couple of places where it doesn't quite scan like the original, but it's certainly nearly there. Good work, and an interesting thread.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 12:00 PM

Sorry, Martin, I've only just seen this! We had hoped to get you involved, but the person who was supposed to contact you... didn't! Mind you, he didn't contact any of the others, either, and I ended up doing it all on my todd... Pity I didn't realise you were on here.

The musical is a reality, and is on Oldham Community Radio 99.7fm on Saturday August 15th at 7.00pm and again on Sunday August 16th at 10.00pm.

More info in this thread.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:20 AM

Marting of the famous Star Inn, Salford I guess?

L in C

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Marting
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:08 AM

This is a message for Bernard who mentioned Ted Edwards writing a musical I would be interested to hear more about this can you get in touch? [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 04:39 AM

William Hey was only the mouthpiece apparantly. William Hulton actualy gave the orders for both the riot act to be read and the yeomanry to go in - against the advice of both the chief of police and the regular army. He was what is known as a bit of a bastard. Still, if Peterloo did one thing it finished his political career. Even his peers shunned him after and he died, apparantly, with no friends and still convinced he had done nothing wrong!

DeG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Robin
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 04:05 AM

Pretty sure the Riot Act verse should read 'Parson Hey's command' William Hey was not actually Vicar of Rochdale at the time but was given the living soon after; possibly as a reward?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:22 AM

Unless there is another version, your text seems to have undergone several changes

Mark's explained the borrowed chorus. As far as the verses are concerned - particularly the expansion of verse 4 into two verses - apparently this is a genuine variant. (One change is mine - I'm sure those females were meant to be harmless, not 'armless'!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:07 PM

Not many people will see a link between John's search for lost knickers and Tommy Ducks. I would be happy for people to find their own solution(?) to the mystery of John's lost knickers and the shame associated with Tommy Ducks but others with a more detailed knowledge of Manchester history might want think otherwise.

L in C

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: John J
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

Whatever happened to all those knickers?

JJ
(Lowering the tone quite successfully)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM

Shame about Tommy Ducks

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:01 AM

Manchester City Council have a lot to answer for. For years they have systematically destroyed, or stood idly by while developers destroyed, the history and heritage of what should be the most interesting city in the UK.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:06 AM

Manchester City Council Music Service published Harry Boardman's book of Manchester Ballads. It is still available, or was recently.Perhaps they might be a starting point in looking for a production of Ted's musical? Another angle is that a number of High Schools have "Preforming Arts" status perhaps they might be interested? Google for contacts.

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Bernard
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:51 PM

Ted Edwards has written a musical called 'Peterloo'... we're trying to find a production company who will stage it.

He'll be 70 in April 2009, so it would be good if we have something definite to report by then...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo Massacre (Harvey Kershaw)
From: GUEST,chris hewitt
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

Peterloo Massacre will be on bbc1 politics show sunday 2nd november 12-30 lunchtime in north west area tractor were filmed performing one of their peterloo songs which john peel encouraged them to record

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:02 AM

Cheers, Mark. I'm good at spotting rewrites, particularly when they're not there!

Great CD, by the way.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE MEETING AT PETERLOO
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:44 AM

Pip,
A bit of background to THE MEETING AT PETERLOO.
It came from a newspaper contemporary to the event which I found in Labour historian Eddie Frow's personal library in 1968 while researching local songs.
Unless there is another version, your text seems to have undergone several changes; the 'With Henry Hunt we'll go' chorus comes from another song which only partially survived and was on the Critics Group album 'Waterloo-Peterloo'
'Meeting' was included in Sam Richards' and Tish Stubbs' The English Folksinger (Collins 1979)
The text as I got it was:

1. Come lend an ear of pity while I my tale do tell.
It happened at Manchester a place you know right well.
For to redress our wants and woes reformers took their ways.
A lawful meeting being called upon a certain day.

The sixteenth day of August eighteen hundred and nineteen
There many thousand people on every road were seen
From Stockport, Oldham, Ashton and from other places too,
It was the largest meeting that reformers ever knew.

Brave Hunt he was appointed that day to take the chair.
At one-o-clock he did arrive, our shouts did rend the air.
Some females fair in white and green close by the hustings stood
And little did we all expect to see such scenes of blood.

Scarcely had Hunt begun to speak: Be firm, he said, My friends.
But little still did we expect what was to be the end
For around us all so hard and cruel regardless of our woes
Our enemies surrounded us on the plains of Peterloo.

The soldiers came unto the ground and thousands tumbled down
And many armless females lay bleeding on the ground.
No time for flight was gave to us, still every road we fled.
There were such heaps were trampled down, some wounded and some dead.

Brave Hunt was then arrested and several others too.
They marched us to the New Bailey, believe me it is true
And numbers there was wounded and many there was slain
Which makes the friends of those dear souls so loudly to complain.

Oh God above look down on those for Thou art just and true
And those that can no mercy show thy vengeance is their due.
Now quit this hateful mournful scene, look forward with this hope
That every murderer in this land may swing upon a rope.

But soon reform shall spread around for sand with the tide won't stay.
May all the filth that's in the land right soon be washed away.
And may sweet harmony from hence in this our land be found
May we with plenty all be blessed in all the country round.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:00 AM

The version that Pip Radish has added above is complete as far as the verses go. The only thing that Chris and I added was the chorus from the song "With Henry Hunt We'll Go" as the only indication of a chorus on the ballad sheet was "So God bless Hunt &c" (which was a big help!). When we decided to record the 35 "Manchester Ballads" we set ourselves a remit of making the songs singable without too much fiddling about but we realised that in some cases the written words didn't scan very well and so a little trimming and rewriting was done to get the words to fit the tune or the song was extremely long and where this was the case we left some of the verses out if they didn't detract from the gist of the song. (Palmer refers to ballad singers employing this method in the notes so we felt justified in doing this) Occasionally the tune used by Harry Boardman and Roy Palmer wasn't quite right and we altered it to suit or in the case of three of the ballads we found the correct tunes. The best example of this was "The Calico Printer's Clerk" where Chris got in touch with Steve Gardham who supplied us with a copy of the original sheet music written by Harry Clifton and Charles Coote jr. The ballad describes the tune as "traditional - as sung by the Spinners" which was the version written by the Haliard folk group in the sixties.

By the way - in the version put in by Stewie at the top the line
"Then Riot Act were garbled out at Parson his command"
should read
"Then Riot Act were garbled out at Parson Hey's command"

Parson Hey was William Hey who was one of the Magistrates involved in sending the soldiers in under Joe Nadin's orders.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: Lyr Add: THE MEETING AT PETERLOO
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:42 PM

Here's the version that appears on the 2005 CD _Manchester Ballads_, arranged and performed by Mark Dowding and Chris Harvey. Others will doubtless know more than me about this CD and the book of ballads from which the texts are taken (compiled in 1983 for Manchester Education Committee). It's not a million miles from the version quoted above by Jim and Nutty, but with the chorus David remembered. I wonder if there's been a bit of editorial padding-out - the fourth and fifth verses of this version look a bit thin.

Incidentally, the 'cap of Liberty' was a red bonnet which symbolised the French Revolution, & which radical reformers used to carry aloft; one of the first things the Hussars did when they charged Peter's Field was to pull down the caps of Liberty which the demonstrators were displaying.

THE MEETING AT PETERLOO

Come lend an ear of pity while I my tale do tell.
It happened at Manchester a place that's known right well.
For to redress our wants and woes reformers took their way
A lawful meeting being called upon a certain day.

The sixteenth day of August eighteen hundred and nineteen
There many thousand people on every road were seen
From Stockport, Oldham, Ashton and from other places too,
It was the largest meeting that reformers ever knew.

Chorus:
With Henry Hunt we'll go, my boys, with Henry Hunt we'll go,
We'll mount the cap of Liberty, in spite of Nadin Joe.

Brave Hunt he was appointed that day to take the chair.
At one o'clock he did arrive, our shouts did rend the air.
Some females fair in white and green near the hustings stood
And little did we all expect to see such scenes of blood.

Scarcely had Hunt begun to speak, "Three cheers!" was all the cry
What to shout we little knew, but still we did reply
He saw the enemies, Be firm, said he, my friends.
But little did we expect what would be the end

Chorus

Our enemies so cruel, regardless of our woe
They did agree to force us from the plain of Peterloo.
But if that we had been prepared, or any cause for fear,
The regulars might have cleared the ground, and they stood in the rear.

Then to the fateful ground they went and thousands tumbled down
And many harmless females lay bleeding on the ground.
No time for flight was gave to us, still every road we fled.
But heaps on heaps were trampled down, some wounded and some dead.

Chorus

Brave Hunt was then arrested and several others too.
Then marched to the New Bailey, believe me it is true
Numbers there was wounded and many there was slain
Which makes the friends of those dear souls so loudly to complain.

Oh God look down upon us for Thou art just and true
And those that can no mercy show thy vengeance is their due.
Now quit this hateful mournful scene, look forward with this hope
That every murderer in this land may swing upon a rope.

Chorus

But soon reform shall spread around for sand the tide won't stay.
May all the filth in our land right soon be washed away.
And may sweet harmony from hence in this our land be found
May we be blessed with plenty in all the country round.

Chorus x2

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: GUEST,chris hewitt
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:19 AM

Tractor [ acoustic electric rock band from Rochdale championed by John Peel] have reworked their 21 minute Peterloo Massacre suite of songs into a 40 plus minute suite of songs and are campaigning for a 190 th anniversary concert somewhere near St Peters Fields in August 2009

contact them by e mail chris hewitt [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Willa
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 03:41 PM

Thanks, Emma, for the links. I did try to find the item in the guardian archives, but couldn't for some reason. The figure of 15 dead was said to include 4 who died later of their injuries.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 08:00 AM

Sorry - They were demonstrating FOR the repeal of the corm laws of course! See - I get all riled up about it even now;-)

And yep, Jim, spent a good while in Central myself - Got the words and music for 2 Swinton May songs before the Chambers Book of Days came online. I have been in Rylands but only as a tourist. Magnificent building. The other interesting one is the Portico Library on Portland Street. I never knew it existed until we were invited to perform a Pace-Egg play there. Fascinating private library! The one I would really like to see is Chethams - Must have a wealth of music related manuscripts there!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 07:40 AM

The Guardian article says "We are very happy with what the city has done about the plaque," said Paul Fitzgerald, spokesman for the Peterloo massacre memorial campaign. "And it's a great victory for our group." I would have said it was the very least Manchester City could do!

The Free Trade Hall was a much more serious memorial to those people. The were demonstrating against, amongst other things, the reform of the Corn Laws which priced food off peoples tables. The act which finaly removed the last elements of those awful times was the Reform Act of 1832, allowing Free Trade and bringing food prices out of the control of the Government and landowners. The Free Trade Hall was built in the 1850s as a permanent reminder of the repeal of the corn laws and, although it was never said by the people funding it, a memorial to the people that died to bring about their repeal.

I was sickened and disgusted that the City council sold this wonderful building to private business and now all that remains is the facade. A sham, covering the so called Labour councils sell out to capitalism. The final straw, for which I was threatened with police action, was when a young homeless man selling the 'Big Issue' outside the Hotel that now hides behind the facade was 'moved on' by a liveried doorman. My language was not pleasent and I did later apologise to the doorman. It was not realy his fault.

I do now sing, on Harveys version, the last line
'Trendy wine bars stand today, on the fields of Peterloo'.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 06:19 AM

thanks Willa, it was good to read that news item

Picture of the original commerative plaque and proposed red plaque here

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 05:06 AM

Dave,
Thanks for that - funny - the minute I started to read your posting I though 'Thatcher'. Wouldn't William Hulton have made a great Home Secretary in her government?
When I lived in Manchester I did a great deal of work in The Central Library on The Chartists. For anybody interested, they had a reasonable collection of broadsides and hundreds of newspapers (on microfiche) from the period, many of them containing songs and poems.
Never got round to The John Ryland library, but I believe they have similar.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM

Funnily enough, Jim, the massacre was always denied by one of the chief causers - William Hulton. Not only head of the Manchester Magistrates but also High Sherrif of Lancashire, this paricularly nasty piece of work was also responsible for hanging children as young as 10 and casuing the deaths of dozens of miners down his pits by blatantly disregarding the times woefully inadequate safety legislation. He was, understandably, ostracised by his peers when he chose to not only deny any involvement in the massacre (It was he that ordered Parson Hayes to read the riot act) but then he also denied that anyone outside the militia was injured. His politival career was, fortunately, ended then.

I think I have said to you before on discussions about British Imperialism that the first victims, and probably last with Thatchers demolition of the unions, of the British Empire were the Englsh working class. Look up William Hulton if you want any further proof!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: Lyr Add: THE MEETING AT PETERLOO
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 01:29 PM

This is the text of a broadside I found in historian Eddie Frow's library back in the sixties
I have included the note that was added by Tish Stubbs and Sam Richards when they included it in 'The English Folksinger.

THE MEETING AT PETERLOO
1. Come lend an ear of pity while I my tale do tell.
It happened at Manchester a place you know right well.
For to redress our wants and woes reformers took their ways,
A lawful meeting being called upon a certain day.

2. The sixteenth day of August eighteen hundred and nineteen
There many thousand people on every road were seen
From Stockport, Oldham, Ashton and from other places too,
It was the largest meeting that reformers ever knew.

3. Brave Hunt he was appointed that day to take the chair.
At one-o-clock he did arrive, our shouts did rend the air.
Some females fair in white and green close by the hustings stood
And little did we all expect to see such scenes of blood.

4. Scarcely had Hunt begun to speak: Be firm, he said, my friends.
But little still did we expect what was to be the end
For around us all so hard and cruel regardless of our woes
Our enemies surrounded us on the plains of Peterloo.

5. The soldiers came unto the ground and thousands tumbled down
And many armless females lay bleeding on the ground.
No time for flight was gave to us, still every road we fled.
There were such heaps were trampled down, some wounded and some dead.

6. Brave Hunt was then arrested and several others too.
They marched us to the New Bailey, believe me it is true
And numbers there was wounded and many there was slain
Which makes the friends of those dear souls so loudly to complain.

7. Oh God above look down on those for Thou art just and true
And those that can no mercy show thy vengeance is their due.
Now quit this hateful mournful scene, look forward with this hope
That every murderer in this land may swing upon a rope.

8. But soon reform shall spread around for sand with the tide won't stay.
May all the filth that's in the land right soon be washed away.
And may sweet harmony from hence in this our land be found
May we with plenty all be blessed in all the country round.

The Meeting at Peterloo (p. 161) A Manchester broadside, set to a traditional tune - a Cornish version of "The Loyal Lover' from the Gardiner manuscript.
This broadside describes the notorious massacre at St Peter's Field, Manchester, 16th August, 1819. Hunt, mentioned in several verses, was the main leader at this gathering of radicals and reformers, and in their book 77 The British Labour Movement, 1770-1920, A. L Morton and G. Tate give a grim picture of what took place: 'On August 16th 1819, contingents with bands and banners, and including many women, marched to the meeting ground in perfect order but with a discipline more terrifying to the authorities than any disorder could have been. As Hunt was beginning to speak, a troop of Hussars and the Manchester Yeomanry were launched at the closely packed crowd. The soldiers seem merely to have obeyed their orders mechanically; it was the upper-class yeomanry who showed a positive enthusiasm for hacking and trampling the unarmed people. Very soon eleven were dead and some four hundred wounded.'

"I don't know the song, but the story of the massacre appears to have more than one version, one being that many people died, and another that a couple of people were slightly injured when the soldiers fired over their heads after the reading of the riot act, but the news story was distorted to gain sympathy for the rioters.
It would be an interesting one to research. Bron.

I missed this first time round - I've heard of holocaust deniers, but this is is nonsense.
The facts of the massacre are well established and fully accepted, except by a few nutters.
There is an excellent account of the events in Joyce Marlow's 'The Peterloo Massacre, published by Rapp and Whiting in 1969.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Willa
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 10:09 AM

A red plaque (replacing the original blue one0 has now been erected in the centre of Manchester, after pressure from members of the Peterloo massacre memorial campaign, giving fuller details of events. (15 dead and over 600 wounded.) Members are still campaigning for a commemorative sculpture to be erected.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: GUEST,lancishire lass
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:13 PM

slightly befuddled brain tonight as for some unknown reason this song came to mind . Maybe passing the area earlier en=route to wilmslow rd had triggered a memory.as i recall a well performed Olhdam Tinkers song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Willa
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 05:23 PM

Hi, Jim. Thanks for amending my posting. The song is, I think, by Jim Woodland. These four lines only are the chorus
Chorus
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo
And the red upon the green grass sparkles like the morning dew.
Feel the tears roll down like water, and wash the bloodstains from you.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.

Subject: Lyr Add: ST. PETER'S FIELDS (Jim Woodland)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 11:18 AM

I have transformed Willa's "peculiar notation" into something more readable. However, I don't know the song, and I don't really understand her notation, so I don't know if the lyrics below are properly divided into stanzas and chorus(es).

ST. PETER'S FIELDS
(Jim Woodland)

Peter's Fields in Manchester, on a day we need not name.
Soldiers waiting in the sunshine, one by one the people came.

And the women were dressed in white, wearing leaves of laurel green.
Peter's fields in Manchester, 1819.

And you would think reform was a baby that must be born.
And you would think democracy would give us hopes of liberty.

But do you think that's true? Have you heard the news?

Chorus

Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.
And the red upon the green grass sparkles like the morning dew.

Feel the tears roll down like water, and wash the bloodstains from you.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.

Somebody tell me how it happened, I know even less than you.
Their swords were out and sharpened, a hundred thousand pushing through.

We were standing in the front line, still I can't believe it's true.
I saw her eyes, she saw mine. She was dead before she knew.

Chorus

And when you wake up in the in the morning, thank the star that shines on you,
that the likes of Phoebe Webber always do the things they do.

From the bloody streets of Moscow to the ghettoes of the USA,
From the haunted squares of China to the graveyards of the Cape

She will die again tomorrow, just as she died yesterday.
She will die until the sorrow and the chains are swept away.

Now the green leaves of the laurel turn a red and deathly hue.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.

Now the green leaves of the laurel turn a red and deathly hue.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on a street not far from you.

[As sung by Janet Russell on "Bright Shining Morning?" Harbourtown Records HARCD 026, 1993.]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 01 - 12:59 PM

Aaaagghhh! Now you tell me! I drove into town today specialy!!! You owe me 30p for diesel! (Not realy - I was going in anyway;-))

It was LNER - I guess central station (now GMEX) immediateley behind the depot was LNER. Victoria was L&Y. London Road (Now piccadilly) was LMS and Exchange may have been L&Y or LNWR. Interesting to me as well - you're not the only train spotter!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Anglo
Date: 27 May 01 - 11:04 AM

Not important, Dave. I think the LNWR (London North Western Railway) was the largest of the companies that regrouped into the LMS. The LNER (of Flying Scotsman fame) went up via Doncaster & Newcastle. Just a memory of my mis-spent trainspotting youth.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Stewie
Date: 27 May 01 - 07:06 AM

Chanteyranger, that was by The Critics Group of which MacColl was a member, and it has gone the way of a lot of great music - out of print. It was on the English Argo label, a subsidiary of Decca (I think), that seems to have disappeared long ago.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 27 May 01 - 03:06 AM

There was an LP by, I think, Ewan MacColl called "Waterloo/Peterloo." Don't know what became of it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 01 - 03:45 PM

Brilliant link, Nutty. Thanks.

And what's wrong with portaloos's???

Not got chance to check if its LNER or LNWR yet - maybe Monday

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: nutty
Date: 26 May 01 - 08:06 AM

SPOT ......the deliberate mistake. My mind is back to front as well this morning

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: nutty
Date: 26 May 01 - 08:04 AM

There's lyrics tune and chords here - not sure if it's the one you want but this is a very useful site anyway

PERETLOO

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 01 - 04:31 AM

Could be - I'll double check when I pass.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Anglo
Date: 26 May 01 - 01:30 AM

Would that be the LNWR, Dave?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 01 - 05:13 PM

Cheers Willa

I was there again today. Not quite as sunny but still warm. Teasers bar. Gosh - how do they get away with wearing so few clothes? Not that I'm complaining mind...

Anyway. A bit more of the history. The latest trendy bars etc are built on the site of the old LNER warehouse on the corner of Peter Street and Deansgate. I commented to the better half that even though the site is now worth millions it was probably worth a lot more, in todays terms, when the LNER was transporting cotton, coal, and everything else through its warehouse. The Free Trade Hall is still becoming a hotel but it made me feel a little less angry when I realised that the cotton and coal magnates had lost in the end. It is now ordinary working folk that frequent Peters fields.

But don't look too closely at who owns the bars;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: Lyr Add: ST PETER'S FIELD
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 25 May 01 - 02:15 PM

ST. PETER'S FIELD
JIM WOODLAND (JANET RUSSELL) F#C#G#

Peter's fields in Manchester, on a day we need not name.
Soldiers waiting in the sunshine, one by one the people came.
And the women were dressed in white, wearing leaves of laurel green.
Peter's fields in Manchester, 1819.

EEEEDCBA AAAAFEE EEEEDCBA AAACCBB EEFFEFEE.CDEECAF AAAACCBA.BBAA

And you would think reform
was a baby that must be born.
And you would think democracy
would give us hopes of liberty.
But do you think that's true?
Have you heard the news?

EFFFEF.FEFFEFEE EFFFEFEF.FEEEFEFG EFFFCB.FFFCB

Chorus
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.
And the red upon the green grass sparkles like the morning dew.
Feel the tears roll down like water, and wash the bloodstains from you.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.

CCCCBAAD.CCCAABD CCCCBAAD.CCCAABC CCCCBAAD.CCCCCEE CCCCBABE.CDCAABA

Somebody tell me how it happened, I know even less than you.
Their swords were out and sharpened, a hundred thousand pushing through.
We were standing in the front line, still I can't believe it's true.
I saw her eyes, she saw mine. She was dead before she knew.

Chorus

And when you wake up in the in the morning, thank the star that shines on you, that the likes of Phoebe Webber always do the things they do.
From the bloody streets of Moscow to the ghettoes of the USA,
From the haunted squares of China to the graveyards of the Cape

CCCCCBAAD.CCCCAABC CCCCBAAD.CCCAABC CCCCBAAD.CCCAABC CCCCBABE.DDCAABC

She will die again tomorrow, just as she died yesterday.
She will die until the sorrow and the chains are swept away.

CCCCBAAD.CCCBABC CCCCBABE.DDCAABA

Now the green leaves of the laurel turn a red and deathly hue.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on the fields of Peterloo.
Now the green leaves of the laurel turn a red and deathly hue.
Phoebe Webber has been slaughtered on a street not far from you.

CCCCBAAD.CCCBABC CCCCBABE.DDCBABA


Sorry about the peculiar notation; I understand it, but it's probably meaningless to anyone else; at least you have the words now, and yes, Malcolm's reference to Janet's CD is correct.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 01 - 08:41 AM

Knew I'd forgot something else - Theres a great version of this song (Harveys Peterloo that is) on Lynne and Barry Hardmans new CD. Dunno what the CD is called though but you can get it wherever Lynne and Barry are playing.

D

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 01 - 08:39 AM

Thanks Malcolm - note made. Good to have met you last weekend btw.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 May 01 - 08:22 AM

Janet Russell, Bright Shining Morning, Harbourtown Records HARCD 026, 1993.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 01 - 03:51 AM

Oooh - have you got any details, Willa? Words would be good. With tune even better! Details of any recordings would suffice though.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 24 May 01 - 06:05 PM

Jim Woodland's song, 'St.Peter's Fields' (sung by Janet Russell), is a modern, but very traditional-sounding song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:39 PM

Thanks for the hard work DTG, I was only thinking of this song last week, now I don't have to dig around for the words. JohnB

Subject: Lyr Add: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 01 - 11:56 AM

I have just completed collecting and sifting through the various bits and versions I have learned. Stewies version above seems pretty close to what I have now so I will not bother going through the differences. I don't know what is Harveys original work and what is someone else's interpretation anyway!

All that aside I have resurected this thread because the other day I was basking in the glorious sunshine outside Bar 38, a trendy wine bar on Peter Street, Manchester, just down the road from where they are busy turning the Free Trade Hall into an up-market hotel, leaving only the original facade. Bear in mind the hall was a memorial to the people who lost their lives and it provided a good quality and affordable venue for all sorts of events for the people of Manchester. I contemplated the wine bars, clubs, concrete sculptures, fountains and trendy young people (not me of course!) enjoying themselves. It is all very pretty but I felt deep regret that these buildings were on, or at least alongside, the very fields where the horrific massacre occured nearly 200 years ago. There is no mention of it anywhere.

It is not often I am moved to writing but the anger I felt resulted in the following verse, written by me, which I feel could now expand the original. Don't bother crediting me if you use it but do mention the original is by Harvey Kershaw and the last verse has been added by someone else in the light of more recent events.

Here it is -

This fine hall it stood in tact 'till the new millennium turned
Built with cotton money to remind us all of the terrible lessons learned
But the rich developers wanted the land
On the Free Trade Hall a hotel is planned
Where the concerts played, garish bars now stand
On the fields of Peterloo

Nowhere near as good as Harvey I know but the best I can think of at the moment.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 06:18 AM

Bron, the Tinkers' album Oldham's Burning Sands has a note about the song which is pretty much in line with what I learnt at school: "...some 80,000 people gathered to hear the well-known Radical, 'Orator' Hunt. The yeomanry charged into the crowd, laying about with their sabres. In a few minutes, eleven people were killed and some 400 injured."

I have always thought the tragedy might partly have been explained by both sides underestimating the effect of charging horses in a large crowd. Anyone who was at Grosvenor Square in '68 will know what I mean.

It is unlikely that the news in those days would have been massaged to the benefit of the rioters. The occasion deserved to make a massive impact in its own right. Percy Bysshe Shelley was inspired by the incident to write an angry ballad, the Masque of Anarchy, which is well worth a read. Its lines include:
I met Murder on the way—
He had a mask like Castlereagh...

His [Lord Ermine's] big tears, for he wept well,
Turned to millstones as they fell;
And the little children who
Round his feet played to and fro,
Thinking every tear a gem,
Had their brains knocked out by them....

Stand ye calm and resolute,
Like a forest close and mute,
With folded arms, and looks which are
Weapons of an unvanquished war.

And let Panic, who outspeeds
The career of armed steeds,
Pass a disregarded shade,
Through your phalanx undismayed...

And perhaps most famously:

Rise like lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number!
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you:
Ye are many—they are few!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: John J
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 04:36 AM

Well Dave, it looks like you've got the words AND some history! I checked last night at home but I'm afraid I had no info at all. Cheers, John

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 04:32 AM

Brilliant Guys

It is the Harvey Kershaw one shown above that I wanted. I had about 30% of the words, gleaned from a very poor quality recording from a Whitby folk festival circa 1980. I do not even know who was singing it then and it is a bit academic now as I have lost the tape anyway!

I did a bit of research on the event myself many years ago and the song does seem a good reflection of what the historians say.

What this one doesn't mention - but others do - is that the crowd had gathered to listen to Henry Hunt. The one I have heard most is "With Henry Hunt we'll go my boys, with Henry Hunt we'll go. We'll ... In spite of Nadin Joe." Joseph Nadid was the head of the local Police at the time.

There is a good, factual if rather dry, account at http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1819peterloo.html

Enjoy. And once again thanks to all contributors.

D the G

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Stewie
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:04 PM

Hi Malcolm, you are quite right. I checked the Topic discography at Musical Traditions site and the OT did record it. That would have been my source - I thought of the Oldham Tinkers, but the song was not in any of the four LPs of theirs remaining in my collection. However, I recall now that I once had a cassette recording of 'Oldham's Burning Sands'. Dave the gnome had it correctly titled as 'Peterloo'. It is not titled 'Peterloo Massacre', as I had it.

Cheers, Stewie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM

Stewie and I cross-posted there.  All I can add is that it may have been recorded by the Oldham Tinkers (Topic 12TS206; Oldham's Burning Sands)..perhaps somebody can check that?

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:22 PM

There are a lot of songs about Peterloo; some written at the time (one slightly before), but this sounds like a recent one.  Roy Palmer's book, The Sound of History, has some of the contemporary ones.  I haven't managed to find the song you describe, but I'm sure that somebody will, in time.  Can you give us any clues?  Where did you hear it?

Malcolm

Subject: Lyr Add: PETERLOO MASSACRE (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Stewie
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:19 PM

Great song. I found this in one of my old notebooks - I can't recall my source.

PETERLOO MASSACRE
(Harvey Kershaw)

In Peter's field in Manchester in year 1819
Cotton folk of Lancashire in protest did combine
Corn laws had brought the crippling tax
The price of food near broke folks backs
And set alight the smouldering flax
And bristled many a spine

Chorus:
Salute once more these men of yore
Who were to conscience true
And gave their blood for common good
On fields at Peterloo

Sixteenth day of August brought the sound of marching feet
When workers fifty thousand strong in Peter's field did meet
In Mount Street from an upstairs room, the magistrates looked down with gloom
And scoffed their rabble o the loom – vengeance, they vow, 'tis sweet

Then Riot Act were garbled out at Parson his command
For this here Rochdale vicar made with richest living in land
But folk at meeting never knew 'bout Riot Act till bugles blew
And mounted Redcoats come in view, their sabres in their hands

These soldiers mowed folk down like flies, their sabres dripped with blood
They spared no man nor woman's cry, but pierced them where they stood
Many dead that day were named and hundreds more were ripped and maimed
While tyrants watching unashamed said it would do them good

For many a year folks struggled on till 1832
Reform Act come, corn laws were done and food was cheaper too
John Bright and Cobden paved the way and now where Peter's field once lay
Free Trade Hall it stands today on field at Peterloo

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: Llanfair
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 05:54 PM

I don't know the song, but the story of the massacre appears to have more than one version, one being that many people died, and another that a couple of people were slightly injured when the soldiers fired over their heads after the reading of the riot act, but the news story was distorted to gain sympathy for the rioters.
It would be an interesting one to research. Bron.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Peterloo
From: John J
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 11:40 AM

I know the song you mean, although I haven't got the words. I'll see if I can get them at the pub tonight. I think the story is about the corn laws and a general demonstration objecting to them. Ordinary people were charged by cavalry in 18 hundred and something, resulting in the 'Peterloo Massacre'. I've got some bumph on it at home which I'll dig out and post tomorrow for you. Cheers, John

Subject: Peterloo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:38 AM

Song that starts "At Peters field in Manchester in the year one-eight one-nine When cotton and coal in Lancashire in protest did combine"

Could be called "The fields of Peterloo" as that is how the chorus ends ie "Salute once more these men of yore, who were to concience true. Who gave their blood for the common good, on the Fields of Peterloo"

Lyrics and info please???

BTW - Manchester council, with their classic disregard of the past, have decided to 're-vamp' the Free Trade Hall which was possibly the best memorial to those who lost their lives at Peterloo. To add insult to injury the area (or at least the car park)is now 'Peters Fields' as opposed to the traditional Peters Field. Not much difference I will grant but makes life a lot more difficult for future historians and folk-lorists!