BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: MMario
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:34 PM

I know SPRINT had major problems today - it took our Web guys almost six hours to get them to admit it though....

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:28 PM

Is............................................it.................................................s-l-o-w-w-w ? ? ? .......................I................had.............n't.....................no............tice..........d......................?..........?............?.......

Ha Ha! Just joking. It seems to be fine on my machine. Maybe you have a hardware or software problem of some kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 11:58 AM

So Max... what is the next, needed equipment or other resource to help you make Mudcat how you think it should be?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 11:56 AM

...And now, Shorty seems to be cookin' too!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 11:55 AM

Thanks for the info Mario.........about half of my bookmarks weren't working with no pattern at all. Now everything except Shorty seems to be back.

Any bets on whether anyone actually admits to a problem?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: MMario
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 09:31 AM

yeah - Joe, that's what they say. So does AOL. right. uh-huh.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 02:31 AM

Well, I have Microsoft Network as my Internet Service Provider, and they say that there's no problem at all with the Web or with MSN, so it must be my computer that's causing the problem.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: MMario
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 08:43 AM

BTW - please note that yesterday major portions of the web were not responding at all and the NUDCAT was cranking right along!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Yo
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 05:49 AM

THANKS Max, that's a clear answer. Even for non-computer-nerds like me! Yo.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Max
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 06:03 PM

-------------------------------------------

Vol. 17 - Page 72 - Item 4
Onstage Media, Inc. Rules and Policies
Onstage Computer Naming Policy

He or she who builds it, names it.

-------------------------------------------

That is an excerpt from our Corporate Bible here at Onstage. It means that whoever orders or builds or reformats or has to do the work into making that computer awake and functional gets to name it. I've named at least 80% of the boxes here so far. One is being born in the next couple of days and Elf Greg gets to name it. Jah is God... like me. Loki is like a God of Chaos. Shorty is short. Charlie is tall. We also have a Roady, Matilda, Sleek, Marley, Mahler, Leela, Leon, Luxboo, Bertha, Bodhi and various others that aren't very interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From:
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 05:22 PM

Max. Thanks again for Mudcat. Thanks for the explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: jeffp
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 04:11 PM

Damn, Max! If I lived in the area, I'd want to work for you; you are doing really cool stuff. I appreciate the amount of effort you put into the Mudcat, and, for my money, it IS the best damn site on the net!

jeffp

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 03:59 PM

Gee, Max - I actually understood much of that. Now, can you tell us how these computers got their names? I think it might be fun to know.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Sean Belt
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 03:59 PM

Thanks for the skinny, Max. I'd no idea that the mechanism behind the Mudcat (which is, by the way already one of the best sites on the web) is so complex. Geez. And I thought that fingerpicking a mountain dulcimer was complicated!

- Sean

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Max
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 03:40 PM

Well, here's the scoop. The Mudcat is all hosted here, in Mudcattville (AKA West Chester, PA) on our local network at Onstage which is made up of about 25 computers on a T1 (1.54Mbps) line. Some machines of ours have 25 to 50 Web sites on ONE SINGLE MACHINE. No more California Bill D, that was years ago.

The Mudcat has a machine of its own. In fact it uses 4 computers. Shorty is the primary Web server, it holds all the Web pages. As mentioned above, almost all the pages on the Mudcat are dynamic which means the actually content of the pages comes out of a database.

The database server is Charlie. Charlie is a state-of-the-art monster and is not the problem.

As we got more popular late last year and earlier this year, I had to remove the supersearch because it was taking too long to get results and causing cascading failure. So I moved it to a 3rd machine named Jah.

I added a 4th machine recently named Loki which you can hit at http://loki.mudcat.org. It is an alternate version of the Mudcat that accesses the same database. This is in case something goes wrong with Shorty which is the usual cause of most of our problems. Loki is also a powerhouse, and is responsible for the media encoding that goes on here, such as Mudcat Radio.

Late last year we were averaging about 12,000 messages posted per month. That is about when I had to start spending a lot of time, energy and money dealing with popularity. There are 267,450 messages in the database right now, so we are dealing with a HUGE amount of data. 20,000 messages posted per month is now the average. See how many get posted? How many do you think get viewed? In technical terms… A lot. Both are intense computational processes.

OK, enough stats, lets get down to what's happening. The weak link is Shorty. Now don't get mad at Shorty, Shorty is a fine machine that works very hard. Here's what happens. When, for instance, you load the threads page, the queries in the page ask for data from the database, in this case the list of 1 day old threads. This takes about a 10th of a second (100ms). Now if in that 10th of a second, a 2nd person also asks for that data, the 10th becomes a 5th, 3 people - half a second, and so on. The longer it takes, the more likely it becomes for more people to ask for data at the same time. You see, its a double whammy. That is cascading failure. We are averaging about 25 requests per second which usually works out to be 5 simultaneous connections for nearly the whole day. And the worst day is Wednesday, it always has been.

Now that I've completely bored some of you and confused the rest of you, let me tell you the plan. Round Robin. Soon, Loki will share the www.mudcat.org name with Shorty. When someone types a URL into their browser, a request goes out to turn that name into a number, an IP address. To do this, a DNS server acts as the operator and finds the number of the Web site you are trying to call. I can program my DNS server to change its mind every couple of minutes, sometimes telling you its Shorty, others is Loki. So randomly splitting the requests in two. This is the poor man's solution because the two machines do not communicate so Shorty has no idea how busy Loki is and therefore cannot take over if needed. The drawback to you is… well nothing. The drawback to me is that now I have two copies of the Web site, so if I need to make a change, I have to do it twice. Fun huh?

So that's it for now. Do trust that my desire has always been the same, to make the Mudcat the best damn site on the Web. So time, money, energy willing… it will be perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 02:41 PM

Mrrzy - Max has been using the This Site Has Been Taken Offline By Its Owner message when traffic is too heavy for Mudcat to handle. Just try again in a few minutes; or wait until a different time of day, when things might be slower.
I've been having a terrible time the last couple of weeks. It seems like two out of every three messages I post is aborted. It's getting really frustrating.
I think my problem is mostly my Internet connection. My ISP is Microsoft Network - I figured if I went with a big company, I'd be more likely to get reliable service, and my service has been pretty good for four years. Now, however, I get busy signals when I try to connect at one in the morning, or at ten - and service is s-o-o-o slow, and half the time I can't retrieve my e-mail.
I can't figure out why a usually-reliable ISP has gone so bad so quickly. I called them yesterday, and got the usual corporate "everything is sunny and it must be something wrong with the way you operate your computer" response. If they'd just tell me they're bogged down, I'd be happier.
I'm wondering it all the MP3 traffic is slowing down the Net, and if maybe traffic is heavier because U.S. kids are on school vacation. Aaaaargh!
-Joe Offer-

---

But for those who complain about slowness of service, remember that this is a non-commercial operation, supported by donations and good will. Temper your complaints with an awareness that Max and Dick and the gang are very generous to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Yo
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 06:26 PM

TONY : Apples and oranges? Two different things eh, well, if you compare two of the same things with eachother, there wouldn't be much to compare right?!

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: annamill
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 05:20 PM

moonchild, you were in Phily and didn't stop by??????

Huummphh!

love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Bert
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 05:08 PM

Jeri has pretty much hit it right on. It's a balance between traffic and money. We've too much of the former and to little of the latter.

And as Moonbaby says it's all Shorty's fault.

Bert. (who isn't Max and who isn't Pene and Pene isn't Max)

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: MMario
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 09:20 AM

Believe me, I spend about 8 hours a day monitoring web flow. The MudCat is extremely reliable compared to a lot of sites, and at least gives us an error rather then just freezing the browser

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 06:41 AM

The whole routing issue is very complex. There are times when all of the US seems to be on a go slow for example but there have been many occasions where the only site that I visit that is on a go slow has been Mudcat. I have found that switching to loki can help when performance has become very slow as well as when the error messages have been occuring.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 11:14 PM

if I remember correctly, Max has not for quite awhile had the 'cat on his local machine...it was ported off to some machine in (Calfornia?) which does the actual 'hosting'...so traffic and routers are pretty complex...and 3-8 USA eastern time are the heavy hours.

It is often interesting to look at Internet Traffic Report to get an idea of what is happening

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Giac
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 10:27 PM

Quoth Kurt Vonnegut:

About as subtle as a hand grenade in a bowl of oatmeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Mbo
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 10:15 PM

Get shorty!

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: bbelle
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 10:11 PM

There are certain times of day when it's worse ... like mid-afternoon around 3 PM and then around 7 PM ... anyway, that's been my experience.

Also, 3 PM is when "shorty" celebrates teatime and 7 PM is when "shorty" celebrates happy hour.

moonchild

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 09:43 PM

Yeah, that's what I figured. I only get them at work, which is daytime...

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: bbelle
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 09:37 PM

Dear Guest, Deep Throat ...

You are so wrong and your lack of intelligence overflow of paranoia is showing.

backwoods birkenstock bitch

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: bbelle
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 09:35 PM

Hey, y'll ... I had the pleasure of meeting "shorty" last week in mudcatville! There I was ... thinking how cool it was to see the actual "working" of mudcatville and getting to hang with max, bert, rob, bryan, vadim ... and then, who should appear, but "shorty!" All I could say was WOW! and ZOWIE!

moonchild

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Pene Azul
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:58 PM

I'm pretty sure that the 503s are traffic related too, Mrrzy.

PA

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Pene Azul
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:56 PM

That's the nicest thing anyone has said about me in quite some time.

Thanks,

PA

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:55 PM

Sorry to uncreep this thread, but what I get a lot of is the This Site Has Been Taken Offline By Its Owner message, (403?) - but if I just try again, it's sometimes there. I don't have slowness, though, just a frequent inability to access. Any idea what that is all about?

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:43 PM

No, I'M Max!

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: GUEST,Deep Throat
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:38 PM

Pene Azul=Max

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Tony Burns
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:37 PM

Well Yo, if you would like to contribute to bring Mudcat's budget anywhere close to Alta-Vista's perhaps the performance would improve. I can't think of a more apples and oranges comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:15 PM

Hi Brett, probably 4 hrs to your south, Boston. The singing session is at Paddy Buke's on Portland St on the 3rd floor. It on Wed evenings starts around 9:30. It'd be great if you could make it down sometime. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:11 PM

subtle, Pene? SUBTLE? SUBTLE?? *SG*

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Naemanson
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:07 PM

Barry,

When and where is that "southern session"?

Brett

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Pene Azul
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:05 PM

Just a subtle reminder

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:54 PM

And when you consider that the average response to a serious question seems to be much less than an hour, and only a few minutes in some cases, the Cat is not SLOW at all!! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:47 PM

Another reason not to turn Flamer Threads into epic adventures. They waste time and space. And I suspect the Mudcat elves get pretty sick of having their time wasted on non-productive meanness.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Yo
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:47 PM

That's just what I wanted to know. Short thread this time I guess... Yo.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:45 PM

Barry, why don't you PM me and tell me about it? Oops, sorry - you still have that little cookie problem. You can e-mail me. One thing I'm sure of is I hate driving in Boston, but I may be stupid enough to try it for music.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Pene Azul
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:39 PM

Altavista makes profits. It's really a matter of having the hardware to support the traffic. In short, we're just too good :^) Yes Jeri, in almost all of the Mudcat, every time a page is requested a database must be queried.

PA

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:38 PM

Hi Jeri, speaking of chickens, when are you gonna make our little singing session down south? Yellow Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:37 PM

Alta Vista also has a pile of money to buy hardware and to hire people, and all they do is run Alta Vista. Max has whatever money he can get out of us and a day job.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:35 PM

Sorry Jeri, you're dead wrong, it just took me 10 minutes to get around the stupid chickens. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:33 PM

I'm not having a problem at the moment, but it does happen to me sometimes. When you click on a link to most any web page, you're just telling the 'puter to go there. With a lot of things at Mudcat, when you click on a link, you're telling the server to do a search. If you have a lot of people looking for things, it bogs things down. (I think this is what happens. If I'm wrong, I hope Joe or Pene or someone will correct me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:32 PM

Damn cows won't get out of the way, think thet own the road, next thing ya know it'll be those stinkin sheep. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Yo
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:28 PM

But what about for instans AltaVista. millions of people use that at the same time, but it's still fast enough for me. Yo.

Subject: RE: BS: Why's Mudcat so slow!?
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:22 PM

Max says it is because there are so many of us trying to use it at once. "buffering", ya know......