Christian Influences on Folk Music

Subject: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:54 PM

Serious question/questions:

(1)I was in a discussion with R. Fielding (so: a Buddhist and an athiest who love country gospel music) about influences on different modal colourings and picking patterns in banjo music in the Appalachians, and I had also recently seen the video High Lonesome which discusses among other things the influence of Primitive Baptist singing on the roots of bluegrass. I also now have a CD of Regular Baptist song leading without instruments. There is also a rumour that religion is out of place here (which I deny). So let's try a serious Christianity and folk discussion, out of pure interest and importance of the subject.

One question: how would you characterise the influence of different Christian singing, chanting, hollering, whatever, forms on folk music? The black gospel connection to blues and R & b is pretty obvious, but what of white folks? In Appalachia obviously, but elsewhere as well? It seems to be a huge subject in many ways, once you start looking at it.

(2) A larger question would be the themes of folk songs that seem to be shaped by Christian imagery. The obvious ones of course are salvation and going over Jordan and all that. Less obvious seem to me would be the focus on the dignity of the poor (which arrives from St. Francis and early Protestantism). A Calvinist theme would be the inevitability of punishment. Another, the possibility of forgiveness at the last moment. Redemption in rotten places (like Paul being taken out of prison, Daniel from the lion's den, etc.) And so on.

Any thoughts?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:30 PM

When the New Thought movement began in the late 1800's/early 1900', whole scads of already religious music had new lyrics written to reflect its metaphysical/positive thinking Christian beliefs. Of course, there much more written inclluding original works, since then. I am wondering if any of that influenced the more positive songs we have in popular culture. I know the person(s) (can't remember if there was one or two) who wrote Let There Be Peace On Earth are/were of that belief system.

Also have to wonder about things like You Are My Sunshine, as well as Bobby Ferrin's Don't Worry Be Happy.

It would also be interesting to note the ones which have come through Sufism and Native American traditions. I have a wonderful new cd by Keith Secola which has an incredible blend of NA trad/rock/acoustic. One can hear other examples of that mixing on AIROS, on the net, anyday. A lot of the NA stuff I lsiten to has a great deal of trad beliefs mixed in with Christianity.

This should be interesting, Peter. Thanks.

kat

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:42 PM

Of course, that is Bobby McFerrin...sorry for the other typos as well.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:49 PM

Gotta cook dinner for guests AND Peter T, so I'll have many opinions in a few hours. I LOVE Gospel music....but Peter, I'm NOT an atheist. I'm a hopeful agnostic!

Rick

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:13 PM

A hopeful agnostic is a good thing to be, Rick, because it leaves one open to all kinds of interesting possibilities. For one, I suggest you read "The Tao of Pooh" and "The Teh of Piglet" for some fascinating insights into Taoism, one of the most harmonious and appealing spiritual philosphies of all time...very sensible stuff, with no patriarchal desperado of a God watching and judging...should appeal to a hopeful agnostic. Then read over Jesus' actual teachings as demonstrated in his own life, and consider their relevance to living a better life in any society...good food for thought. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the practices of the Christian Church in general, by the way. Jesus was not a Christian...he was a Jew, trying to reform and renew a hidebound and oppressive church in his own time.

The Christian influences on folk music are so numerous that I could go on forever about it...but I won't (BIG sigh of relief out there! Ha Ha!).

One thing I will say...there are 3 great overriding influences on the development of songs, poetry, and prose in the English language...the Bible, Shakespeare, and Bob Dylan (Har! Har!). That's my opinion.

"I'll let you be in my dreams, if I can be in yours."

Bob Dylan said that.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:19 PM

Ah Peter...What a thread!!! I look toward interesting responses and of course....

Go salai neach neamhshaolta do chuid fo-eadaigh!

Truly!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Frankham
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:19 PM

I think that the folk traditions have influenced the Christian hymns more than the other way around.

Case in point, "My Name Is Robert Kidd, As I sailed" became "What Wondrous Love Is this, O my Soul".....

Churches have borrowed heavilly from the folk tradition. Another example is John Jacob Niles "I Wonder As I Wander" of which copyright is owned by him.

The Calvinist Deoctrine is found in many fundamentalist folk hymns such as "Shall We Gather By The River" and "Poor Wayfaring Stranger". It's interesting to note that "Sometimes I Feel LIke A Motherless Child" is not and African-American spiritual but emanates in that form from the Anglo-Appalachian tradition as a kind of camp meeting song. Check Jackson, "White Spirituals in the Southern Mountains.".

It's interesting to note that Georgia Tom, who wrote the party blues "Tight Like That" became Thomas A Dorsey who wrote "Precious Lord, Lead Me On" and other famous gospel pieces many of whom were popularized by Mahalia Jackson.

I would say the Folk influenced the Christian hymns.

Frank

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 08:35 PM

Little Hawk, you are after my heart with that one!

If we are discussing this, we can't leave out The Doc (Watson, that is) and his recordings of "folk" hymns. Do we consider the Carolinas to be in Appalachia, or just Southron? Look at Faithful Soldier and I Am A Pilgrim as recorded by The Doc. He did several more but I can't remember just which right now.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Biskit
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 10:40 PM

I believe in much of your older Folk and blues songs most if not all has to do with the beauty of the world around us, and the age old battle of good and evil.ie;Robert Johnsons deal at the crossroads.You can't believe in one without believing in the other.Most folks a generation or two back were believers. They prayed before meals they prayed at bedtime and they gave thanks for their crops and their families.They were basiclly immersed in christian thinking, and living and they did it without, (for the most part)questioning these beliefs. I would think it odd indeed if their songs outside of church did not reflect this devotion. peace-Biskit-

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 10:40 PM

Anyone notice Spaw has suddenly become bi-lingual? Scary....very scary!!**BG**

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: bbelle
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 10:43 PM

kat ... I know his secret. Go to the What is HearMe thread. It's an absolute hoot. Made me LOL.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: paddymac
Date: 05 Aug 00 - 07:06 AM

Little Hawk - what do you mean saying Jesus was a Jew. All the evidence suggests that he was actually an Irishman. Consider:
1. He lived at home till he was 29.
2. He never had a steady job.
3.He went out partying with the lads the night before he died.
4. His last request was for a drink.
5. He thought his mother was a virgin. And
6. His mother, god love her, was positive he was gonna grow up and change the world!

Well, so much for the christianity aspect of the thread. On a more serious note (there's the music part)(*BG*)

Ok, now I will get serious. The US was an primarily an agrarian society throughout its colonial period and up to the emergence of the industrial state in the later 1800s. Such societies usually have dispersed populations (i.e.; low population densities in terms of people/sq. mile). As churches followed the westward expansion of the population, the basic product they had to market was their ability to function as a community social center. Preaching, alone, couldn't hold a crowd for long, so there was an evolution of a theatrical element as well, which included liturgical music and hymns. That became a major "venue" for both performers and audiences. Publishers quickly realized that churches tended to buy large numbers of hymnals. So, publisher sencouraged writers, arrangers, etc., for fodder to fill those hymnals. Thus , it seems we ought not be surprised by a close connection between "church" and music. Let me hasten to recognize that this is largely "plausible conjecture", and I certainly don't want to suggest it as any sort of absolute. That said, it strikes me as a valid working hypothesis.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:29 AM

Hey paddymac - Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! I love it...gee, maybe he really was Irish...

Anyway, his mother was right. Good for her.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:16 AM

I was thinking primarily about styles of music, but another couple of themes that occur to me are:

- you always have someone with you (He Walks with Me, etc.) even in your darkest hour. This shows up over and over again.

- The world is not my home. This is not specifically Christian, but this is made much of.

- The prodigal son returning home, deciding to return home, etc.

It is interesting that certain stories and themes get all the attention, and some, even exciting ones, almost none. For instance, does anyone know any songs about the following parts of the Crucifixion story:

1) The Garden of Gethsemane; 2)The Denial by Peter (a sensitive topic for all Peters);
3) Jesus before Pilate;
4) The Road to Emmaus (should make a great song);


The Old Testament songs all seem to be about Joshua, Moses, David, and Ezekiel (and the Great Speckled Bird in Isiaih). Is there a song about Ruth or Miriam or Esther or even Bathsheba?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Aug 00 - 10:29 AM

It's always seemed really curious to me how emotionally involved I've been with Christian Gospel music. On my rare visits to the United Church (similar to Congregational in The States) with my folks, when I was a kid, I heard lots of "church singing". It bored me stiff. The Ministers with their boring monotones bored me. The message seemed factually unrealistic, and it struck me that most of the attendees would be out playing golf if the weather had been better. (My father certainly would have)

This changed dramatically when I bought a record by the Staple Singers. (I was about 15) I remember being transfixed by what was coming out of my little SeaBreeze record player. The lyrics were certainly part of it, but it was "The Sound" that got to me. Within the next year I'd heard the Swan Silvertones, Rev. Gates, The Golden Gate Quartet, and at least a dozen other black Gospel groups.

My first exposure to "white" Southern Gospel, was the singing of Bill Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, the Stanleys and The Delmore Bros. but when I heard Estil C. Ball for the first time, I remember audibly going "WOW!"

For me it's still "The Sound!". That troublesome word "logic" still prevents me from having definite views on a Diety, an afterlife, and especially on whether it's any of my business what others should or should not believe.

"The Golden Rule" has always struck me as being pretty good advice, as to how I should treat other people, but I got that from my parents.

I dug out three albums by "the Father of Bluegrass Gospel", Carl Story (with the Brewster Bros.) a couple of nights ago...and it still sounds amazing to me.

Rick

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 05 Aug 00 - 11:03 AM

Currently there are two people who come to mind whose music (lyrics) seem to reflect the "philosophy of the remnant" that I think of as truly Christian--Pierce Pettis and Bob Franke. Their music seems the embodiment of what is genuine, the spirit of integrity, the unapologetic pursuit of truth. Still, they convey that same sense of the Folk/Spiritual that leaves one with a sense of connectedness with those believers who have gone before. They also write about life as it touches Christianity and Christianity as it connects with life, The very picture of Francis Schaeffer's Non-segmented man.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 00 - 05:03 PM

I'm not sure if you would all think it's "folk music", but Dylan's album "John Wesley Harding" (1967)is very much inspired by the Bible and the Christian world view. Bob himself referred to it as the "world's first Christian rock album" in an interview (although it's not rock...it's either folk or roots music, I'd say).

Odetta did a lot of spirituals, so did the Weavers, and it was a specialty for Hank Williams and numerous early country singers, who were considered "folksingers" in their own era, if not now. Old country really was folk music, as far as I can see. Hank Williams is absolutely great!

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 00 - 06:58 PM

Hmm. But how about traditional English song and CHristian influences? Almost everything off "Frost and Fire" of course, but not a lot else leaps to my admittedly tired mind

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Rana
Date: 05 Aug 00 - 07:50 PM

What leaps my mind are traditional English songs like the Bitter Withy. It paints a totally different picture of the infant Christ to what might be painted in other songs. Who wrote this song and others like this, and why? - any answers out there?

Rana

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: p.j.
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:43 AM

Rick--

"Amen, brother" to your comments about the Staple Singers and Delmore Bros.... and at a music camp this week I saw my new favorite bumper sticker:

"I'm a militant agnostic-- I don't know and neither do you!"

grins 'n hugs

pj

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 04:28 AM

How about the reverse? We're getting more and more hymns and song written to traditional tunes... a lovely version of Psalm 23 (the Lord's my shepherd), to She moved through the fair....

LTS, who is too hoarse to go singing in church, thanks to the HearMe last night!!!

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:55 PM

PJ, sorry about your tough week. We're both thinking of you. Think I'll pass on the bumpersticker though...not enough folks laugh at them these days. Most of my "overt Militancy" is centred around traditional music these days. Now perhaps a sticker that said "Friends don't let friends play incorrect F chords"! That one I might display.

Back to the topic at hand: I liken my attraction to (Southern) Gospel music, to those who have become huge fans of "Celtic" (or Celtoid) music, without actually donning Druidic robes or joining Covens.

Rick

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 01:56 PM

Rick, what about Washington Phillips?
His music was the foundation of his gospel preaching. The man was dedicated, had a message and I liked how he delivered it.


Maybe I should start a thread on Jewish Influence on Folk Music. I bet the postings would be kind of different. More like corporate sponsorship, financial investment opportunities, entertainment law and 'how I wanted to be a musician but went into the family business instead'.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Ringer
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 01:58 PM

Ah, Rana, who wrote Bitter Withy any why? And King Herod's Cock and While Shepherds Watched (thought we do know who wrote that) and lots more besides. I don't know, but I am overcome by the way that apochryphal stories set in Palestine 2000 years ago can "babble of green fields". I think Christina Rosetti did something similar with In the Bleak Mid-Winter. It might be possible to get a handle on her, being relatively recent?

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 02:07 PM

Tell you what Pam.....I'll take one if you can find one that says, NON-MILITANT AGNOSTIC: I Don't Know and I Don't Care. You are in our thoughts too.....tough week, super highs-super lows.......Hang in.

This thread has intrigued me all along and I have something that I don't know how to phrase, but I think it plays a part.

Much of the trad music that was passed on from the old country that was modifies in the mountains became the root source for gospel and country music. I think that the pentacostal/evangelical churches that came to be in the southern mountains influenced which secular songs were passed along as well as the hymns. The view of these churches regarding morals and family values became the dominant criterion for "selection" of many songs as well as the cloth of the culture.

In that respect, it is not surprising that many songs putting women second came along. But there was the "frontier backlash" of sorts which also gave women the last laugh even if it came cloaked in kindness. Add to this the fact that almost all of the music was passed on by women. Of course some men were involved with music and instrumental playing was at one point almost totally reserved for men, but the songs and lessons learned in the churches and settlement schools was the province of women almost exclusively. Women often hid their instrumental talent and relied on the voice alone. This resulted in lots of harmonies and high harmonies which we now associate so closely with gospel and bluegrass.

Well.......I'm not phrasing this too well. Maybe I'll try again tomorrow..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: oggie
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 07:01 PM

There is also the village carol tradition from the Sheffield/South Yorkshire area which must qualify as part of the folk culture.

On a lighter note I got a major fit of the giggles a couple of Christmas's back when I realised that the folk tune selected for an Advent Carol belonged to a song about a soldier and his (taken advantage of) lass (The Shearing's Not For You).

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 07:47 PM

Bonnie, the Jewish influence on BRINGING traditional "Christian-esque" music to us city folk has been incalculable. It is certainly worth a thread of it's own. Just one example (from literally thousands) is that without Ralph Rinzler this whole darn world of ours would NEVER have known how important Bill Monroe was. Jewish drive, courage and loyalty made possible most of the traditional and Contemporary folk and blues recordings we all have in our collections.

Rick

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 08:29 PM

Oy, what a thread we shall have!
Nu, why am I waiting?
Why is this thread different from all other threads?
I should be so lucky as to start such a thread.
Which I plan to do right now.

Thanks Rick, such a Mench you are!

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 10:43 PM

Oy gevalt, another jewish american princess. And a gefilte fish to you too. BG's

Dan

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:23 PM

I can assure you Dan that Bonnie's regal bearing is more "Queen-like" than your average princess!

She's also startin' to pick a pretty mean banjo!

Rick

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Lena
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:31 PM

Rick,can Epstein & Beatles be enlisted with the others or wasn'he jewish?!

I suppose if you go back to OLD folk,before the industrial plague,popular music was 1) the local telly/Cosmopolitan/Wthever Morning Herald; 2) a good way of scoring,ops courting someone; 3) a way of relying to God.After all,religiosity has been the main basis of western society(have a look at frescoes in Churches for painting & archit. & sculptures),from Greeks on,and pretty much for other cultures as well. Ans folks were much more likely to sing for some God to help them than rich city people! I add the usual mediterranean touch letting you know that folk tradition down there has A LOT to do with religion. Apart from very profane sexual subjects,a good 70% of songs names God,asks for something or so.Especially,of course,stuff survived from medieval times.God was quite fashonable those times. And oh,did we consider the fact that a lot of music surviving old times got to us thanks to be sung in churches or written down by those monks who worked hard on notation systems?! (I studied gregorian singing years ago ;it's a very complex but genial way of writing singing.The tunes are almost at the level of crazy contemporary music,but more beautiful.)

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: mactheturk
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:44 PM

John Prine gives us his spin on the topic in his song "JESUS, The Missing Years".....proving once again, that there's a little bit of Jesus in every folksinger.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: paddymac
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 12:03 AM

'Spaw - Hmm, sounds to me like you have well phrased the origin of that characteristic "high lonesome" sound of pre-commercial bluegrass.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 12:25 AM

Yup, Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen are Jewish too, and so are a host of other great songwriters, like Paul Simon and Carly Simon (I presume). A major contribution indeed. Cohen seems to consider himself a Jew who practices Buddhism, while Dylan, of course, has had major forays into Christianity as everybody well knows. Cohen pointed out in one song that he doesn't pretend to understand the sermon on the mount at all. Interesting. I find it quite comprehensible. Maybe he was just trying to come up with a neat-sounding line in that particular song, rather than stating a firm belief of his own.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 12:27 AM

Rick

I havent met her, just on PM and email, but I hope shes not a Queen and I just listened to her play her song. Shes doing well. I'm going to have to get a move on to catch up to her.

Sailor DAn

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 10:15 AM

I wonder if Pilgrim's Progress may not have as significant an influence as the Bible on Folk Music. Not so much in terms of specific names, but in terms of the feel of a pilgrim journeying through the ordinary countryside, crossing Jordan, etc. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 12:19 PM

Didn't some folks think that the sermon on the mount contained the phrase "Blessed are the cheesemakers"? Forgive me but everytime I think of the film "The Life Of Brian" I break out in smiles that often last all day.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention in this thread that both Sandy Paton and I think that the Rev. Alfred Karnes' "Called to the Foreign Field" may be the greatest recorded folk performance either of us has ever heard.

One night in the Paton's jet black living room, I played that recording at least twenty times in a row. The message (about converting the "Heathen" in Africa) is hardly one I'd countenance, but the overall effect of the recording is simply staggering. I simply can't explain my attraction to it.

What does come to mind though, is that I probably feel the same way a born again Christian would, when I can actually get someone else to listen to that record. In a way, I feel I've made a convert. Realisticly I know that to most people (and probably most on Mudcat) it would just sound like a scratchy old country song...but to me, it's part of what has made my life worth living.

Rick

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 01:57 PM

Anyone remember John Hartford's "Lowest Pair"?

Subject: RE: Christian Influences on Folk Music
From: Biskit
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:04 PM