Gender and the soprano voice

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Escamillo
Date: 13 Aug 00 - 11:18 PM

Yep, Joerg. Some posts above I said I know nothing about yodeling. I´ll try to find some sample in the web, and some sample of the beautiful brea\\\\presence of Shakira for you to hear what I mean. If WW is able to yodel a song and Alice likes it, then it must be something musical, though I still guess that "voice break" is a different thing.

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Alice
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 01:23 AM

I just added some of the recording I have of WW singing and yodeling (forgive me, KC). She stood in my dining room and sang a capella into my tape recorder, and did a lovely job, although I put her on the spot without a chance to "warm up". You can listen here:

http://www.driveway.com/share?sid=59f84619.a21de&name=Mudcat+music yodel WW

Alice

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Escamillo
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 03:15 AM

Thanks Alice, now I understand, and I liked the song too. I realize I had heared yodeling singers, it is just what German and Swiss Alpine folk singers do, and it is indeed into the tune. In my opinion it is easier for women, because the high notes are emitted in a position very close to the normal soprano head voice. I guess it is harder for men, since we would have to change rapidly from chest or head voice to a real falsetto which is very artificial for the male voice. However those folk Swiss or German singer master the technique very well.

This technique respects the melody, and adds an ornament, that is not what I mean by "voice break", when the notes are difusely high and out of tune, and never sustained so long, the jumps are always at the end of a word or phrase. I'll look for an example.

Joerg, you are close to the masters of the Alpine technique, I guess you may find someone to teach you and very probably you will succeed. I would only say, don't force your voice trying alone. The teacher will know when to stop, when to go higher, etc.

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Alice
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 10:39 AM

Andrés, I started a thread about the website driveway.com. It has dropped off the forum, but it is a place anyone can upload files for free and then share them with others by email or a link to the folder. I will look for this person Shakira, too.

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: WyoWoman
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 12:44 PM

Alice, you scamp! I certainly WASN'T warmed up, was I? But it does give an example of what we're talking about.

And Andres, what I was thinking of as a "voice break" is what I do on a couple of the notes just before the yodel on that song ... maybe on "hear" or "camp" -- can't remember exactly which one.

And Joerg, whether or not we fall in love, get yourself a cookie and come on in. Might as well be a member and pretty soon you'll be an oldtimer like Alice, Escamillo and me. You won't find a better (nor weirder) group on the 'Net.

ww

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Alice
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 01:25 PM

Andrés, I found a sample of Shakira singing "Estoy Aqui" on the site www.shakira.net. I was expecting something as bad as Yoko Ono screaming, but I can hear what you mean by the break sound. It is very much like the American Country & Western style that has a break, which I think sounds like a crying sound, as in when a voice is sobbing and weeping and makes a "break" sound. It is common, as I say in Country & Western songs, but Shakira seems to use it constantly while she is singing, several times in just the few seconds of the sound clip I listened to. If this annoys you, believe me, I think it is why some people LOVE and some people HATE Country & Western singers!

We have certainly gone off topic of boy and women sopranos, but it has been a fun thread.

Alice

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Alice
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 01:33 PM

I just listened to the clip of Shakira singing "Ciega, Sordomuda", and there she DOES sound more like Yoko Ono, alot of the breaking, but she has more of a singing voice when she isn't breaking the sound, and Yoko Ono just screams instead of singing.

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Escamillo
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 05:34 PM

"sounds like a crying sound, as in when a voice is sobbing and weeping " - that's a better description than mine, Alice! I did never reach the point of HATING this singer because I did never stand for her songs more than a few seconds, but as I said before, she is famous and successful. Apparently, multitudes like her, as well as the same multitudes like other (good) singers. Popular taste has been always a delicate subject where a personal opinion could hardly establish a definition.

La Wyo, it was excellent without any warm-up ! :))

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 10:35 PM

ww - you know I'm not the man to rape women when I meet them in the dark. (Trying to be a gentleman I would of course never tell that to a girl who just didn't hurt me badly, so please try to forget my fault here.) But on the other hand - sometimes in the dark I'm also a little frightened asking myself: "Will she think she's less than a goddess to me if I don't even try?" Should I post that in the current AARGH thread?

and alice - aren't you at least a little ashamed for posting a sound clip like that with the beginning of the tune clipped and without telling the title?

;-)

Without joking now:

First - WHAT AND WHERE IS THAT SONG? I'd commit harder crimes than thread creeping to get it. (BTW I am not afraid of being too far away from the original topic. Singing techniques as the one used by ww here are very close to those that enable a man singing at almost soprano pitch, and remember that the word in the headline is only 'gender', not 'everything except adult male'.)

ww - What I was originally interested in is also what you are doing before the yodel, and I also didn't think of yodeling when this first came to my mind. Do you also have the impression that there's a difference? Moreover - I can't 'yodel' at all but I am almost able to sing along with you - doesn't sound good and I can't do it loudly enough, but it works.

It seems to me that yodeling as done in the alpine regions (as I know it) is still different, and I'm far from having any relation to that. You know there are very well-trained yodlers doing things which would keep your mother from ever telling you again that you are yodeling instead of singing if she heard that. Yes, they are mostly women but also some men. I am hardly interested in such acrobatics but what can hit me is when those singers do quite normal, especially slow songs. They are sometimes using their yodeling techniques some way that really should be considered a serious aspect of singing - without any danger of damaging their voice at all I suppose. Unfortunately I'm also far from being an expert for this kind of - yes - folk music (shame to me).

Which reminds me of uillean pipes. When the players are trying to prove how good they are - what a noise! But some slow air, also when inserted as a solo into some slow, tender song, played with feeling and emotion can suck my heart into the bellows.

Andrés - I promise that I will try to get some sample of Shakira's brea////music.

Keep on yo////singing.

Joerg

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 12:54 AM

I haven't posted here for a while, but i've been reading. This seems to be a good place for a true but catty story I have to tell about a soprano vs a boy soprano.

It was on public TV, and a famous soprano named Sarah Hyphen-Something was doing a special. At one point, she introduced a little black boy about ten years old and said he was her "friend" so-and-so. (I bet she had met him twice before the show.) She said they were going to do the famous duet by Andrew Lloyd Webber with the choir boy.

Back in the motel room I said, "Oh, this should be interesting." Ha! She completely steamrollered the kid. Drowned him out so thoroughly that I couldn't deduct a single sound from him. It was really unkind. I wondered what the sound engineer (if any) was doing. What a way to treat a "friend."

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Alice
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:26 AM

Joerg, the song is called THE NIGHT RIDER'S LAMENT, a contemporary song. It is about a man who receives a letter while he is working as a cowboy herding cattle. The people in cities (an old girlfriend) don't understand why someone would live that kind of life out in the West. "... but they've never seen the Northern Lights, they've never seen a hawk on the wing, they've never seen the spring hit the Great Divide, they've never heard old camp cookie sing..." It tells of the beauty of living the cowboy life in the West.

You were probably just trying to flirt with W.W., but the subject of rape is very threatening to women, so it is not something we joke about. This must be a language barrier??

Alice

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Alice
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:35 AM

Joerg, I did not include all of the song because it would take too long for my computer to load it, but you can find it on recordings on the internet like at CD NOW. Just search for "Night Rider's Lament".

leenia, this thread has been reminding me of a performance I saw on tv of Charlotte Church and the Welsh men's choir. She performed a duet with a friend of hers, a boy soprano, and both having children's voices, they blended and sounded great together. They did look like true friends. How awful to put that other little boy through singing with a Diva!

Alice

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 01:25 PM

Alice - thank you for the song, I think I'll be off now for some time looking for it.

I didn't intend to flirt with ww but to tell her that I was VERY impressed by her posting above (that one mentioning "calling the hogs") and later on also by her singing, and not only in some strictly rational way. I suppose (I'm not sure) that about 20-30 years ago this way of saying something kind also wouldn't have worked where I'm living but today it mostly works. Maybe this has introduced Sodom&Gomorrha here, but I think it has also taken away a whole lot of fear - as joking about something frightening often does. Not a language barrier but maybe some cultural one (I wouldn't be surprised because such exist inside of Germany sometimes within a few miles). Please try to translate a little.

Love

Joerg

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: oggie
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 04:45 PM

The interestng thing with Charlotte Church will be whether her voice, and more importantly her muicality, develops. The repertoire on her first CD's is not at the demanding end of the spectrum and whilst done well the voice is no more outstanding than many other Girl choristers - but the marketing was superb!

As she grows the challenge will be to keep the voice in shape but also to gain the other experiences which go to make a great singer. As with most (if not all) young musicians the technacal side is easier to produce than the interpretation. The career of the child prodigy seems to be slide once they are no longer young but are competing with others whose technical skills have caught up AND have developed interpretive powers.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Alice
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 05:41 PM

I have wondered if some of what Charlotte Church has been made to pursue will actually harm her voice, since many teachers will not take on serious voice training of a child. They wait until the individual has gone through puberty before they begin serious technical training. You're right, Steve, as pleasant sounding as she is, the marketing was the greater "art" in this case. It remains to be heard what her real, adult voice will sound like, how much it will change.

Alice

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 08:10 PM

Looks like we're thread-creeping back to the topic.... What did it sound like, Charlotte singing alongside a boy soprano? If she can do it, there would seem to be no logical reason why girls should be barred from most of the Cathedral choirs. And such choirs would, in that case, deserve to have the Sex Discrimination Act thrown at them. And any cathedral that does recruit girls, but requires them to sing in a separate choir, is surely behaving pretentiously.

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: oggie
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:37 AM

Fionn,

As we rotate back to thread (but it's been fun!) there is a big difference between two voices singing seperate lines in a duet and blending 8 voices per side singing in unison. In the latter case all the problems referred to earlier come into play.

When the Cathedrals hold voice trials not only are they looking for musicality but also for voices that 'fit' into the overall sound of the choir - some boys get into one choir having been rejected elsewhere because of their voice not fitting.

It is subjective but to my ear Lincoln's girl choir sounds different to the boy's choir. Not better or worse but tonally different. It's a much more individualistic sound with a greater range of peronalities apparent but lacks the oneness which has been the hallmark of much liturgical music.

The experience has also been that there are parts of the choral repertoire (especially the Mag/Nunc settings) which don't seem to work for the girl's choir. The choir mistress used to say that suitable repertoire was one of her greatest challenges.

As a slight digression, next week (20th - 27th August) sees Edington Music Festival take place in Wiltshire. The festival is based in the church and consists of liturgical music sung in context so it's a week of Matins, Eucharist, Evensong and Compline sung daily with a wide range of settings from different eras. Should be fun!

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Escamillo
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:58 AM

I've found what the famous musicologist Henry Paul Lang had to say about gender and the soprano voice, covering the subject of castrati, and the reasons for the use of boy voices in church. It is very interesting and enlightening, but will take me an hour or so to translate (ironically, I'm going to translate to English the Spanish translation of the original in English). May be tomorrow night I come back. (First I'll search the Web, it is possible that the original version is somewhere in the net).

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 06:44 PM

Steve, many thanks. I'd not thought through that point at the top of your last thread, and obviously it's crucial. The rest of what you said was also extremely interesting.

I too have heard both choirs at Lincoln. In the case of the girls, I arrived a few minutes late, and sat in a position where I couldn't see the choir. I had a strong sense of the tone not being "right" and the discovery that I'd been listening to the girls' choir seemed adequate explanation. To some extent, what one is accustomed to must be a factor, but ultimately I do think there is something uniquely special about a "traditional" church choir, no doubt for the reasons you've given.

Finally unconfused, I'll leave you all to get on with the more entertaining strands of this thread.

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: NIGHT RIDER'S LAMENT
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 10:04 PM

Back from looking for the song with WW's yodel - do you remember? It's in the DT, but don't be too sure to get it from there. My impression is that poor Max&Co are currently trying to make their work a little easier while going to cry some bitter additional tears in the near future (that's success).

I would have tried to generate some blue clicky things but as the peculiar way I got the data three days ago doesn't work anymore today...

To everybody also interested in the song, here's the lyrics as formerly available from the DT under N as 'Night Rider's Lament':

Last night as I was riding
Graveyard shift, midnight to dawn,
Oh, the moon was as bright as a reading light
For a letter from an old friend back home.

He asked me, "Why do you ride for your money?
Why do you rope for short pay?
You ain't gettin' nowhere and you're losing your share--
Oh, you must have gone crazy out there."

He said, "Last night I run into Jenny;
She's married and has a good life.
Oh, you sure missed the track when you never come back;
She's the perfect professional's wife.
She asked me, 'Why does he ride for his money?
Why does he rope for short pay?
He ain't gettin' nowhere and he's losing his share.
Oh, he must have gone crazy out there.' "

But they've never seen the Northern Lights.
Never seen the hawk on the wing.
Never seen the spring hit the great divide--
No, they've never heard old camp cookie sing.

Well, I read up the last of the letter.
I tore off the stamp for Black Jim.
And Billy come by to relieve me;
Just looked at my letter and grinned.

He said, "They ask you why do you ride for your money?
Why do you rope for short pay?
You ain't gettin' nowhere and you're losing your share--
Oh, you must have gone crazy out there."
But they've never seen the Northern Lights.
Never seen the hawk on the wing.
Never seen the spring hit the great divide--
No, they've never heard old camp cookie sing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Words and music by Mike Burton, copyright 1975 Groper Music, Inc.
Recorded on Fashioned in the Clay, FSI-104, 1985, Gordon Bok, Ann
Mayo Muir, and Ed Trickett. Also recorded earlier by Jerry Jeff
Walker with a yodel at the end. It's a nice statement about
different strokes for different folks with a little bite to it.

The tune was once posted by Sorcha (? at least I hope so because I can't get back to there) in miditxt and ABC. Unfortunately, I didn't save the miditxt source but the ABC source was

X:1
T:The Nightrider's Lament
M:3/4
Q:1/4=100
K:Bb
F6|F4F2|F4E2|E2D4|-D6|F6|-F2F2F2|FD3F2|F6|
-F4G2|G4GG|G3FE2|F2B,4|-B,4F,F,|DD3CD|E2D2C2|
B,6|-B,4FF|F2F2F2|FE3E2|E2D4|-D4F2|F2F2F2|
F3DF2|F6|-F4F2|G2G2G2|F4F2|FB,3B,2|B,6|-B,4F,F,|
DD3D2|E2D2C2|B,6|-B,2D2F2|G4GG|F4EE|ED5|-D6|
G6|-G4GG|F3FE2|D6|-D4B,B,|G2G2G2|A4AA|B2F2F2|
G6|F6|E6|-E4CD|EDC4|E2D2C2|B,6|-B,4FF|F2F2F2|
F3EE2|E2D4|-D4F2|F2F2F2|F3DF2|F6|-F4F2|G2G2G2|
F4F2|FB,3B,2|B,4F,F,|DD3D2|E2D2C2|B,6|-B,2D2F2|
G4GG|F4EE|ED5|-D6|G6|-G4GG|F3FE2|D6|-D4B,B,|
G2G2G2|A4AA|B2F2F2|G6|F6|E6|-E4CD|EDC4|E2D2C2|
B,6|-B,6|B,2D4|-D4F2|G4G2|F4E2|F4D2|B,6|GGG2G2|
F2F3E|D6|-D6|G6|-GGG2G2|A4AA|B4F2|G6|F6|E6|
-E4CD|EDC2D2|ED3C2|B,6|-B,6||

Everybody using abc2midi 1.7.7 as I do will get many warnings "Bar ... has ... units instead of ..." and the result will sound very funny. Don't think of flaming poor Sorcha, simply Search&Replace "|-" by "-|". Then change the two occurrences of the '-' in the first line position manually. Or try my own preliminary version including the yodel

X:1
T:The Nightrider's Lament
M:3/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=120
K:C
V:1
% harmonica melody
%%MIDI channel 1
%%MIDI program 21
%%MIDI transpose -12
%%MIDI control 7 55
%%MIDI control 10 50
%
z2
e/2 f/2 | % Last
g2 g | g2 f | f e2- | e3 | % night
g2 g | g3 | g/2 e/2-e g | g3- | g2 c/2 c/2 | % graveyard
a2 a | g2 f/2 f/2 | g2 e | c3- | c2 G/2 G/2 | % moon
e/2 e3/2 d/2 e/2 | f e d | c3- | c2 % letter
%
c/2 e/2 | % but they've
g2 c' | b2 a | g2 d | c2 d/2 e/2 | % never
f2 f | g2 g/2 f/2 | e3- | e2 f/2 g/2 | % never
a2 a | b2 a/2 b/2 | c'2 g | a3 | g3 | f3- | f2 d/2 e/2 | % seen
f/2 e/2 d e | f e/2 d3/2 | c3- | c2 % never
%
%yodel
e/2 f/2 |
g/2 e'3/2 c' | g2 g/2 g/2 | a/2 f'3/2 d' | a3 |
g3/2 g/2 g/2 e'/2 | d'3 | e3/2 e/2 f | g2 e/2 f/2 |
g/2 e'3/2 c' | g2 g/2 g/2 | a/2 f'3/2 d' | a3 |
g3/2 g/2 g/2 e'/2 | f3/2 f/2 f/2 d'/2 | c'3- | c'3 ||

To everybody who really knows that song (especially as WW, she knows it, oh yes, she does): Please notify me if I misunderstood something - PLEASE!

Thread creeping but at least still telling songs (although still not knowing Shakira, but I'll try to remember)

Joerg

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: WyoWoman
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 10:34 PM

That's the words I know, too. I heard it first on a Nanci Griffith tape a friend made for me, and I think she was singing it with Townes van Zandt. Is that possible? (That's the trouble with sending each other tapes -- you sometimes don't get much detail on the songs or artists...) I've heard several people do that song and every one of them (at least the ones who attempt the yodel -- not everyone does) sings the yodel differently. Just depends on your own personal style, I guess.

WW

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:16 PM

WW - thank you again, this time for the 'Nanci Griffith' information. Knowing the (or at least one) artist you still have the best chance to get a recording of some particular song, and Nanci Griffith is at least known in Germany. I wouldn't have looked under 'Griffith' for 'Night Rider's Lament' otherwise (i.e. I wouldn't have looked for it at all). Now I only hope she did that song as charming as you (warm or cold voices are hardly interesting to me in that context).

Andrés - I've now found Shakira on the net but only pics, no sound clips. Pretty girl although she reminds me a little of Jean-Claude Van Damme: "Wanna be an actor? - Choose some expression, put it on your face, and never ever change it again." (Joke stolen from german - er - artist 'Loriot'.) What bre///? Will keep on searching (for a sound clip of course!). :o)

Fun.

Joerg

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Escamillo
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 10:42 PM

Joerg, I did visit the site that Alice indicates but have found no audio clips, perhaps some music teacher became a hacker and destroyed them. (well done;) Her image on those photos surely were taken when she weighed 15 kg less.

Will try to complete tonight that translation I promised, about Henry Paul Lang, gender and soprano voice, and go back to the original subject (sorry Fionn!)

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Alice
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 12:27 PM

Go to www.shakira.net and click your mouse on the words "The Music". The words are above her derriere in that red dress. You have to just look up a little from her rump. Then on the page that opens, you click on your choice of her CD photos, and that will take you to the sound files of the music on each CD.

Alice

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 12:16 PM

This morning I came across a web page with this information:

click here

1.Principal Features of the Singing Voice
2.Respiration in singing
3.On the breath, in the mask, frontal production
4.Passaggio and high notes
5.Imitation and treatises on singing
6.A few recorded examples of bass voices
7.A few examples of baritone voice
8.A few examples of the tenor voice
9.Recorded examples of mezzo-soprano and contralto voices
10.Recorded examples of soprano voices

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:51 PM

Thank you, Alice, for reminding me that quick work isn't always good work. I'd been at www.shakira.net but clicking on one of the CD covers just didn't come to my mind. Shame on me - normally I am the one who's preaching great sermons against 'quick and dirty' behaviour. Now I'm caught myself...

Andrés - having now listened to Shakira: Hehe - that's not what we call singing but that's business. I've been suspecting for quite a while that the majority of people who pay for music do not enjoy the music itself but rather things happening when there's music. Well, if you want to earn money for music don't try to sell them music - sell them things happening, even if what is happening happens to your voice...

What she's doing there seems to be something which can sound quite good when done by a man and in some controlled way: I think that is exactly what happens when a woman 'sings' falsetto. At least it seems to work - with much effort and few result (but maybe some income).

To give you an example what I was thinking of when I mentioned 'breaking of the voice' I have looked for some good sample of alpine yodeling - with a little success: Listen to Tiroler Bravour-Jodler from CD Franzl Lang: Der Koenigsjodler

That is not quite what I wanted but it should give you some expression of what professional yodlers are doing. You might also notice that being a good yodler doesn't mean also being a good singer (Sorry, Franzl) and (especially) vice versa: I don't believe that the good singers I know can yodel at all. Singing and yodeling are different things. But yodeling techniques can also be used in normal singing (Franzl does so, as WW) and this can create charming effects, also without leaving your normal vocal range but just doing it differently. It is of course forbidden in 'classical' singing; this and some things that are allowed there instead (and should be forbidden IMHO) make me object a little to that classical style.

BTW - nice to hear that Shakira has developed a little. So have I.

;-)

Joerg

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 09:13 PM

? No comments at all ?? Am I RIGHT ???

????

Joerg

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 09:40 PM

Wait please.. I'm trying to translate that article (puf puf) Thanks for your advice but in NO WAY I'm going to shake and show my belly for the audience. Definitely. The last time I tried it was .. oh, no, don't mention it.

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: Gender and the soprano voice
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 10:09 PM

Don't despair, Andrés - I suppose that was only because you failed to have your navel pierced in time. They just took you for an alien.

Joerg