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BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?

Mrrzy 07 Aug 00 - 01:53 PM
Whistle Stop 07 Aug 00 - 02:44 PM
Ebbie 07 Aug 00 - 03:19 PM
katlaughing 07 Aug 00 - 03:20 PM
Kim C 07 Aug 00 - 03:48 PM
kendall 07 Aug 00 - 03:52 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 07 Aug 00 - 03:54 PM
Mbo 07 Aug 00 - 04:04 PM
Jed at Work 07 Aug 00 - 04:16 PM
catspaw49 07 Aug 00 - 04:24 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Aug 00 - 04:26 PM
Rick Fielding 07 Aug 00 - 04:29 PM
katlaughing 07 Aug 00 - 04:37 PM
Kim C 07 Aug 00 - 05:03 PM
Mbo 07 Aug 00 - 05:10 PM
Mbo 07 Aug 00 - 05:14 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Aug 00 - 05:16 PM
Jim the Bart 07 Aug 00 - 05:25 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Aug 00 - 06:26 PM
CarolC 07 Aug 00 - 06:38 PM
kendall 07 Aug 00 - 06:41 PM
Mrrzy 07 Aug 00 - 06:44 PM
DougR 07 Aug 00 - 06:57 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Aug 00 - 07:15 PM
CarolC 07 Aug 00 - 07:19 PM
DougR 07 Aug 00 - 10:55 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Aug 00 - 11:11 PM
Mbo 07 Aug 00 - 11:14 PM
Ebbie 07 Aug 00 - 11:20 PM
Mbo 07 Aug 00 - 11:26 PM
thosp 07 Aug 00 - 11:54 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Aug 00 - 11:58 PM
thosp 08 Aug 00 - 12:08 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Aug 00 - 12:29 AM
GUEST,Luther 08 Aug 00 - 12:37 AM
PoohBear 08 Aug 00 - 12:40 AM
GUEST,Luther 08 Aug 00 - 12:42 AM
CarolC 08 Aug 00 - 02:51 AM
Ebbie 08 Aug 00 - 02:54 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Aug 00 - 03:16 AM
CarolC 08 Aug 00 - 03:32 AM
Whistle Stop 08 Aug 00 - 08:41 AM
DougR 08 Aug 00 - 09:47 AM
Mrrzy 08 Aug 00 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Luther 08 Aug 00 - 10:25 AM
katlaughing 08 Aug 00 - 10:32 AM
katlaughing 08 Aug 00 - 12:09 PM
DougR 08 Aug 00 - 12:15 PM
Jim the Bart 08 Aug 00 - 12:37 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Aug 00 - 12:47 PM
catspaw49 08 Aug 00 - 12:57 PM
DougR 08 Aug 00 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Luther 08 Aug 00 - 02:28 PM
Whistle Stop 08 Aug 00 - 03:09 PM
DougR 08 Aug 00 - 04:19 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Aug 00 - 04:58 PM
katlaughing 08 Aug 00 - 06:45 PM
bflat 08 Aug 00 - 08:40 PM
Greg F. 08 Aug 00 - 09:17 PM
katlaughing 08 Aug 00 - 09:57 PM
DougR 08 Aug 00 - 10:08 PM
thosp 08 Aug 00 - 11:09 PM
Mrrzy 08 Aug 00 - 11:19 PM
northfolk/al cholger 08 Aug 00 - 11:57 PM
CarolC 09 Aug 00 - 12:31 AM
thosp 09 Aug 00 - 12:37 AM
GUEST,Luther 09 Aug 00 - 12:55 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 09 Aug 00 - 03:14 AM
Ella who is Sooze 09 Aug 00 - 04:30 AM
Whistle Stop 09 Aug 00 - 08:44 AM
Mrrzy 09 Aug 00 - 11:51 AM
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Mbo 09 Aug 00 - 01:47 PM
Ella who is Sooze 10 Aug 00 - 05:33 AM
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Thomas the Rhymer 10 Aug 00 - 12:50 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 10 Aug 00 - 01:03 PM
Mbo 10 Aug 00 - 01:19 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 10 Aug 00 - 01:40 PM
Ella who is Sooze 11 Aug 00 - 04:27 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 11 Aug 00 - 01:34 PM
ceitagh 11 Aug 00 - 02:14 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 00 - 02:53 AM
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Subject: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 01:53 PM

Could have tacked this onto the Presidential Songs thread - but I didn't - so, what do you all think of Gore picking someone not of the WASPish persuasion? I, personally, was hoping for a woman, but this is an interesting one... Anyway, just curious about y'all's thoughts on this one. And if you can bring in any music, great! All I can think of is the line from Tom Lehrer's Marines song - They've Got To Be Protected, All Their Rights Respected, Till Somebody We LIKE Can Be Elected!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 02:44 PM

Well, it's not truly official until the candidate announces it (just like Cheney wasn't), but I guess it's becoming clearer that Gore is planning to do just that.

It certainly is about time we got a someone other than a white, Protestant male on a presidential ticket (one that has a chance of winning, anyway -- Ferraro didn't really count, because Mondale never really had a shot). However, I can't shake the feeling that the principal reason Gore picked Lieberman is that the latter was so strident in denouncing Clinton during the whole Lewinsky fiasco. In other words, what Gore really wants is someone who can be suitably sanctimonious on the evening news, thereby taking the wind out of the sails of the Clinton-bashers who hope to taint Gore by association. This phony "I'm more moral than you" posturing really turns my stomach, and I hate to see it perpetuated in any form. If it weren't for that, I'd feel pretty good about this selection.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:19 PM

I haven't yet read any commentary on the pick but my take on it is that Al Gore has greatly enhanced his chances in his choice of Lieberman. Somewhat in the way that Carter was a needed option after the debacle of Nixon, perhaps the country 'needs' a clear statement of moral probity, after the confusing Clinton stance.

And I would imagine that having a Jew as a VP nominee can only help- And I say Hurray for that!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:20 PM

Lieberman was okay when we lived in CT, although a tad more conservative than I liked. He did seem fair and deliberate. Have to say I didn't vote for him in the primary back when, though. I think he will liven things up a bit, for Gore and for the race.

Living in Wyoming and having been here a good share of my life, I'd say the choice of him over Cheney is like night and day, esp. for women. Cheney turns my stomach and is scary. We don't need TWO good ole' boys from the multi-million dollar side of the oil patch running the country into the ground the way Cheney and his cronies have done Wyoming.

katopinionatedasalways


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:48 PM

I vote Libertarian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:52 PM

If God had wanted us to vote, he/she would have given us candidates


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 03:54 PM

With Republicans, it's man against man.
With Democrats, it's exactly the opposite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:04 PM

I like what my priest says about the whole Presidential thing. "I hope they BOTH lose!" I will be saving my first chance to vote when there is actually something worth voting FOR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Jed at Work
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:16 PM

MBO - don't be foolish and let my vote count twice; once for me, and once for the one you didn't cast. Of course there is actually something worth voting for! So what if your candidate doesn't win; at least you participated. And if you don't knkow all - vote the party. EVERY VOTE MATTERS!

I like Lieberman. Seems like a good guy; reasoned, intelligent, fair minded, centered (as in balanced). Those things are much more important to me then his opinion on this issue or that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:24 PM

I fear for Lieberman's name recognition factor. Shrub and Chainmail have been in the public eye a good bit and once again, its a popularity contest in this day and age. Hope he brings Gore out and speaking loudly on issues....we'll see.

I look forward to the debates this time. Not that anyone actually says anything, but I think Gore's intelligence and ability to think on his feet will be a big asset. Outside of that, I fear we're in for a lot of name calling.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:26 PM

Nader is a realistic, thought provoking, and intellegent candidate. He knows what corruption looks like, and he is the type of person who exposes political corruption for what it is... His credentials are about as popularly based as a persosn's could be, and he is not particularly gifted at the fine art of deceit. He is the one who could change the modus opperandi of Wahington (and the world), and if we really believe that we make a difference, well then,... Vote for Nader! Green Party.
Gore just might be a poser, and Bush represents Kafka's worst nightmare...


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:29 PM

"Politics is the art of making the inevitable seem like the result of careful planning". Quentin Crisp.

Can you imagine for one minute what kind of human CHOOSES to sit every day in a great big room listening to endless quasi-honest speeches? Boggles my mind.

People who have jobs that I admire:

Fishing guide.

Test Pilot

Gardener

Painter

Astronomer

Poet

Now THOSE are gigs with REAL power.

Rick

I do think he should have picked Oprah, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:37 PM

I would vote for Nader, if I didn't think it would help Shrub et al (thanks, Spaw!) get elected.

Anyone who does NOT vote needs to get their head on right. The makeup of the laws of this country will matter a great deal in this election, as there are many appointments to the Supreme Court which will probably come up for the next president to make. That can last a very long time and effect many generations.

Also, to any who whine about politics: less than half of eligible voters voted last time. If people really want a change they need to get off their arses and vote.

If I really believed enough people would vote for Nadar, I would join them in a true voting box revolution.

Apathy is this country's greatest enemy and I, for one, am tired of the old saw, "I'd vote if, or when, we have something to vote for."

This is it, boys and girls, participate or it will keep going downhill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:03 PM

I agree with Kendall in that there just doesn't seem to be a wealth of outstanding candidates. Now, I'm 32, so this is only my fourth Presidential election. I was 21 the first time I got to vote, in 1988. The first two times, I voted for who I thought was going to win. Some people like to do this, but I think it's a bad idea. I want to vote for the person/party who best represents Me. If everyone did that, the results would be quite a bit different from what we've been seeing.

Also, I think that the absolute best people for the job of President are just too damn smart to want it. I am not man-bashing (I don't do that, I love men)when I say that THAT's why we see so few women running for office in this country... not that so few are qualified, but that They Simply Have Too Much Sense to Want the Job. There are a lot of men who fit that bill, too. Government in the US has become such a circus that everyone figures they'll just leave it to the clowns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:10 PM

Fact is, I don't really care much about politics. I wouldn't mind not voting ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:14 PM

Actually, on second thought, I WOULD have voted for McCain if people hadn't ignored him and went with Mr. TexAss himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:16 PM

Snap out of it Mbo, please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:25 PM

I think it's absurd that we look at so many things - ethnic/gender acceptability, good looks, party affiliation, running mate - before we look at a candidate's record of public service. Nader's record as a whistle blower is commendable, but it doesn't necessarily mean he will be a good president. The president needs to be able to govern, i.e., compromise when necessary, build coalitions in support of policy decisions, lead and inspire the "body politic". Jimmy Carter showed us clearly what can happen when a man is on the right side of the issues but does not know how to negotiate the bureaucracy.

Bush is a cipher. His record shows us very little, other than that he is smart enough to find handlers who can build him into a very good candidate. As for being a man of principle who will uphold the fine Republican traditions, I cannot see it yet. Maybe it will become clearer as the campaign runs and the debates are held. I know picking Cheney is viewed by some in the GOP as proving that GWB recognizes presidential timber when he sees it. So why didn't they nominate Cheney for pres, instead of the photogenic guy with all the name recognition. If I were the republicans, I wouldn't be so quick to forget that "George Bush" is the name of a repudiated former President.

That brings us to Al Gore, who appears to be a better man than he is a candidate. His handlers have completely ruined him. I believe that if the let the man's intellect and humor show people would like him more. He is not Bill Clinton. And all those women who supported Clinton and are abandoning Gore (why? because he's not sexy??)should be ashamed. Not being Clinton should be another point in his favor. He is better than Clinton.

I don't blame him for not repudiating Clinton during the Lewinsky stuff; it would have been disloyal and horribly self-serving to add fuel to that grease fire. I think his silence once the big lie fell through was a proper response for a man in his position. Whether he is culpable in the fund raising "scandal" is an entirely different issue. It may have been wrong, it may have been stupid, but it ain't nothing but politics. And as the late mayor of Chicago Harold Washington said, "politics ain't beanbag." I can't see where this negates all those years of service. If you think that makes him a less worthy candidate than George Dubya, I have a word for you - "REPUBLICAN". IMHO


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:26 PM

Thanks for the escapade into party politics, Bartholomew, I feel like you have a firm grasp on the obvious, however mundane... I'm sorry, I am just weary of appologists for this system. IMHO, the overconsumption of the world's biosphere IS a much more important problem than say, doling out military contracts evenly, or patting the right backs in the right order, for the right favors, at the right time, for the wrong reasons... Gore has indisputedly fooled us with his informed approach, and his book; but these are hard (not soft) issues, and are not really compromise material. He hasn't done anything!
Perhaps it is the compromises that got us here! Some issues don't compromise well,... We are so steeped in the two party systm, that we just don't know what to do... with REAL issues. The common ground between the two main parties IS one of our biggest problems, and all the carrers that have been built upon "communicating" between the two "sides" of the same corrupt system are the cement that holds the whole rotten thing together.
end of rant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:38 PM

I love Ralph Nader. He's been one of my biggest heroes since I was a youngster.

However, as much as I hate to say this, a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:41 PM

would someone tell me what George W has done besides sign over 100 death warrants?


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:44 PM

Well, THIS sure got interesting fast... Kendall, what a hoot! Mbo, this is the first thing I've seen you write that surprised me. I can't decide if I think that choosing someone who wasn't a WASP has just handed the presidency to Shrub (good one) on a platter... I fear...


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 06:57 PM

I'm with Thomas the Rhymer, vote for NADER, Mudcatters! :>) DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 07:15 PM

I guess that what troubles me most is that GWB is being considered at all. Kendall, he apparently lost millions in his 'business' ventures, and repeatedly backslid...


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 07:19 PM

Kendall, the answer to your question is-

Not much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 10:55 PM

Duh! I suppose one could pose the same question about Al Gore (or Bill Clinton prior to his becoming President). I suppose one could. *BG*

I still NADER is the man! DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:11 PM

I read in the paper today that the first thing Bush did upon entering office (the night of his inauguration) was to sign the execution orders for a man with an IQ of about 70. Bush has been approached by the bar on at least one occasion on this point... How serious are his chances?


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:14 PM

What should I snap out of Thomas? Actually, I really like historic European politics...but modern stuff is like "ZZZZZZ!"

--Matt


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:20 PM

As in so much else in politics, compromise this year is needed up front and early. I respect Ralph Nader;I have voted for him several times and in years to come when I think neither of the 2-party banner carriers is tolerable, I will vote for him again.

However, idealism doesn't play well against reality. Since I distinctly do NOT want the Bush/Cheney alliance in that office, I will vote for Gore/Lieberman. Both these men have demonstrated substance and vision.

As for saying that although he wrote an important book, Gore has donenothing, surely it is up to usto act- IMO that's what education is supposed to accomplish. Would you say that Rachel Carson only wrote a book?

Ebbie

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:26 PM

My Psychology teacher used to joke about running for President. As a behavioural pychologist, she said her campaign slogan would be "Change Your Behaviour!" Dr. Barton..where are you???


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: thosp
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:54 PM

well as of this moment i am in the Nader camp ---- i'm so tired of voting for the lesser evil that i think may win --at this moment that would be Gore -- the only reason i voted for Clinton/Gore previously was because of Gore -- Clinton lost me early on -- this time around i want to vote for someone i really want ---- CarolC. and some of my friends say a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush -- i hope not -- i see your point -- but i think if enough people vote Green-Nader it may pull Gore (or even Bush) back to a stronger enviormental stance --well maybe not Bush -and take out the maybe --- also when Nader talks about the working class i feel that he reallycares and understands -- the others (Bush/Gore?etc.)seem to have gotten thier knowledge of the nonmillionaire set through the Hubble telescope --- so much for this rant

peace (Y) thosp


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Aug 00 - 11:58 PM

O.K. the reality check is taken well. I am prone to being idealistic when the elections are drawing near, and I AM likely to change my mind later on, as the potential negative looks possible... but for the time being, shouldn't we persue our Ideals with feeling? Nader has a chance to become President, if we want him.
I think you are right in calling me on my extreme view of Gore, as he is quite acceptable really... But I will remain idealistic with my energy untill I must 'go with the flow' and blindly save the 'common good' from immanent peril...


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: thosp
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:08 AM

"say it ain't so thomas the rhymer" --

peace (Y) thosp


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:29 AM

thosp, you are like a breath of fresh air
encouraging everyone to take time to care
And don't fret if I value all sides with a prayer
For exclusion is dual, is fuel'd despair

May the inherent powers of the universal truth animate you and bring others to your spring; with gladness...thosp!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:37 AM

aaaaagggghhhhhh comparing Rachel Carson to Gore, that kind of sticks in my craw. Rachel Carson was one of the finest, bravest, most fully realized human beings this world has been privileged to know, and she did what she did at a terrible cost to herself. Gore is a politician who cobbled together a book of some truth, some half-truth, and a lot of baloney at a time when it was fashionable to be Environmental. You might as well compare Jesus to Deepak Chopra.

If your conscience say vote Nader, for god's sake DO IT. A vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush. It's a vote for Nader -- nothing more, nothing less. He may not win. He's very unlikely to win. There's probably not a chance in hell that he'll win. Those are probabilities. But here's an absolute certainty: he won't win if you don't vote for him. He won't win if you continue thinking in cliches like "a vote for X is a vote for Y", election after election after election.

For a third party (or a second party, in real opposition to the Democratrepublican party) to succeed, to become a meaninful force, somebody is going to have to VOTE FOR THE CANDIDATE. Lots of somebodies, in election after election. Why not start now?

Nothing terrible is going to happen if Dubya wins. We'll still have plenty of light bulbs and toilet paper and 140 channels on the TV and an appalling educational system and something called the "health care industry" and kids shooting kids and corporations will still get to write their own legislation, just like now, just like before. Or maybe just a little more like now, but not so you'd notice much.

And besides, if this country elects Dubya, what could be more appropriate than having a president who looks exactly like Alfred E. Newman, only not quite as bright?

There's a great Michael Moore column at grassroots.com, to find it it's easiest to go to www.michaelmoore.com and take the link, third icon from the left at the bottom of the page.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: PoohBear
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:40 AM

I wish I could stand to listen to both of the idiots long enough to form an intelligent opinion. I simply have no patience for the BS they seem to spew everytime they step in front of a microphone. It is a pity that the political process in this country has become such a circus that only those least qualified to hold office will run. Those intelligent enough to do a good job of it are way too intelligent to subject themselves to the media feeding frenzy that surrounds any candidate.

I must admit that I will probably "vote for the lesser of two evils", although at this point I am unsure who I believe that to be.

PB


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:42 AM

oops, that's www.michaelmoore.com -- what a place for a typo


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 02:51 AM

Ok, this is the way I see it.

You have two choices. Whether you like it or not. In order to win, a candidate must have the majority of one of the parties, and also most of the swing vote. Nader can't do it. I promise. So it's Bush or Gore.

If Bush is elected, he'll know full well that it wasn't the environmentally conscious voters who elected him. He will know that he doesn't need their votes in order to get re-elected. So he won't feel in the least beholden, or accountable to people who vote on environmental issues.

Gore, on the other hand will know that he needs the environmental constituency in order to get re-elected. He may not change things as fast as we wish, but he will move things in the right direction, as opposed to Bush, who I'm quite confident will move things in the wrong direction.

The problem with wanting change to happen quickly is that you get a backlash. That's why the environmental movement of the 70s became such a joke. A lot of politicians played on people's fears about losing their jobs in order to justify environmentally bad decisions.

I know many people think that Clinton has been a bad president, but I have seen real change for the better, and without a backlash. He has worked very hard to move us in the right direction without creating fears about the economy and jobs. I think that's what we want.

Respectfully, Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 02:54 AM

Well, Luther, I agree with you that pulling Rachel Carson out of the hat was unconscionable- but I was only exploring the thought that the beginning of a movement (Hush, Spaw) is all that's required of an individual, that it is up to us We, the people to respond and carry it forward. Frankly, I liked his book.

Among the things I despair of if Bush/Cheney get in is ANWR. I see no earthly reason to invade and trash a Refuge - for God's sake - in order to see if there is more oil in Alaska to send overseas , for God's sake...

End of Rant

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 03:16 AM

O.K. then... When the WTO meets in Seattle and the town turns into a HUGE protest, does this represent apathy? NO IT DOESN'T! The discontent that is brewing in America is real, even if there are TOO MANY ISSUES to allow a nice clean adgenda to be set.
But it DOES seem to be fashionable for aware people to be cynical, and it is even more GLAMOROUS to not vote! The very real REALITY is that if we could activate this huge segment of the population (you know, the gifted annimated left) to actually vote, AND vote their conscience... NADER WILL WIN. It is as simple as that.
When it comes right down to it, less people will vote for dubaya shrub than we think... it is actually a small percentage of the voting populus. The level of intimidation that we experience from the conservative capitalist corporatives (CCC) of the world is basically a guilt driven fantasy, and it only exists if we allow it to be real to us.
When the WTO met, and the ensuing rallies took place, there was a presence made by people (who were not just finding an excuse to break windows and vandalize honest business people...I really wish they had not done the violence thing), expressing their concern for the overall direction of 'progress'. That is the taproot for global change, and we are 'the people' who can make it happen. NADER REPRESENTS THIS FORCE, and we have a quasi-responsibility to remind people that individuals WILL make a difference.
I am just amazed at the scope of change that awaits us... if we snap out of it and network like we mean it!
Love and honor! ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 03:32 AM

The center is bigger than either the right, or the left. That is a provable fact. That's why Clinton got elected twice. He targeted the center.

The only question is, which way will the center go - to the right or the left. If Nader takes too many votes away from Gore, I'm betting on the center going right. I've seen it happen too many times before.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 08:41 AM

Well, let's see. I agree with CarolC that Clinton has been a much better President than he's given credit for. But I also agree with Luther that we should vote for the person we want to win, rather than betting on it like a horse race.

TTR, I hate to break the news to you, but the WTO protest fiasco in Seattle did more to harm the protesters' various causes than it did to help them; they certainly didn't win a lot of hearts and minds in the rest of the country. This is what happens when people decide to "take it to the streets" without first deciding to get their shit together. In my most humble opinion (and recognizing that this may not endear me to the majority of Mudcatters), people are much too quick these days to opt for street protests; it's fun, it's relatively easy, and it's oh so romantic. Create a ragged list of "causes" to complain about (don't bother with solutions; that's someone else's job), round up a bunch of college students, encourage them to clown around (pharmaceuticals don't hurt) and create disturbances in the streets (since it's a "protest," the usual rules of civility are suspended), and then disavow all responsibility when things go awry.

As for me, I have more respect for people who actually work within the system to bring about change -- it's frustrating, and you have to content yourself with compromise and incremental progress, but in the end it's a more honorable way to proceed. Street protests are have their place, but as far as I'm concerned they are what you should resort to when the system freezes you out -- they should not be the first option of choice, as I fear they are for too many people who don't have the patience for the more tedious process of working for real change. And if you do opt for protesting in the streets, as far as I'm concerned you have to take responsibility for what you've unleashed, whether it's what you intended or not.

A rant of my own; I will now proceed to duck and cover.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 09:47 AM

You SHOULDN'T have to duck, Whistle Stop, you merely spoke your mind, and that is your right! The majority of the folks on the Mudcat are Liberals so you you should have nothing to be concerned about. Liberals are very liberal when it comes to tolerating a viewpoint not their own.

I still say vote Nader! If you believe he is the best person for the job, that's what you should do! DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 10:06 AM

"Nothing terrible is going to happen if Dubya wins" - You gotta be kidding. He'll turn the Supreme Court back into the Spanish Inquisition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 10:25 AM

Mrrzy, I do not believe that for a minute. Look at the records of the justices on issues like, for example, abortion. Then look at who appointed them.

There's no real correspondence at all, is there? It's a myth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 10:32 AM

DougeR...you rascal, you,....spoken like the true Republican you are...pushing us off on Nader, just so'se you have any chance at all of getting ole' Dubya in office! Pretty canny there!**BG** Have you proposed that as the national bumper sticker for the GOP? Maybe they could even donate campaign finance money to Nader, yeah, I like that. The GOP gives him lots of surplus so he can really fire up his campaign...they keep urging all of us liberals to vote for him and voila! Nader DOES get elected!! Yee-Haw!!! Thank you DougeR for that bit of inspiration!! Hahaha!!!

One thing I think we can all agree on? Except Mbo...EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET OUT AND VOTE!!

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:09 PM

Luther, surely you cannot believe that? Have a look:

From NARAL:

The next President may have the opportunity to appoint enough Supreme Court Justices so that the Supreme Court overturns Roe/Casey. Whether this occurs depends on three factors. First, the next President must be given a chance to appoint a sufficient number of Justices, at least two, to overcome the current 6-3 split in favor of Roe/Casey. Second, because the President will likely only get two to three appointees, the purported President's appointees must replace existing pro-Roe/Casey Justices. Third, he or she must appoint and the Senate must confirm Justices who would overturn Roe/Casey. If an anti-choice President is elected, all three factors will possibly, if not likely, occur.

The next President will likely nominate two or three individuals who will serve as Supreme Court Justices. One-hundred and ten Justices have served on the United States Supreme Court (John Jay, the first Chief Justice, through Stephen Breyer, the most recent appointee). These 110 Justices have been appointed by 42 Presidents (George Washington through Bill Clinton), for an average of 2.62 Supreme Court Justice appointments per President. Moreover, since 1869 when the maximum number of Justices serving on the Supreme Court was fixed at its current level of 9 (hereinafter "modern times"), the average number of Supreme Court Justices per President is even higher: 70 Justices (William Strong through Stephen Breyer) have been appointed to the Court, and these Justices were appointed by 25 Presidents (Ulysses S. Grant through Bill Clinton), for an average of 2.80 Justices per President.2 Either two or three new anti-choice Justices are sufficient to guarantee Roe's demise if these Justices replace current pro-Roe/Casey Justices.

Given the age of the current membership of the Court, it seems likely that at least two of the next three Justices to leave the Court will be ones who support Roe or Casey. The current Court is comprised of three blocks of Justices. Each member of the first block, Rehnquist, Scalia, and Thomas, would vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. Each member of the second block, O'Connor, Kennedy and Souter, would not vote to overturn Roe, but would continue applying the more restrictive undue burden standard they announced in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. Each member of the third block, Stevens, Ginsburg and Breyer, would vote to uphold Roe. The following chart presents the three blocks in visual format:

(Sorry I cannot get the format of this right. I will post a link at the end, if anyone wants to go look at it. Thanks, kat)

Block 1 - Anti-Choice Justices Block 2 - Pro-Casey Justices Block 3 - Pro-Roe Justices Chief Justice Rehnquist Justice Scalia

Justice Thomas Justice O'Connor Justice Kennedy

Justice Souter Justice Stevens Justice Ginsburg

Justice Breyer

The current membership of the Court listed by age, as of January 2001, the beginning of the next President's term, as as follows:

Stevens - 80 (Born April 20, 1920)
Rehnquist-76 (Born October 1, 1924)
O'Connor-70 (Born March 26, 1930)
Ginsburg-67 (Born March 15, 1933)
Scalia-64 (Born March 11, 1936)
Kennedy-64 (Born July 23, 1936)
Breyer-62 (Born August 15, 1938)
Souter-61 (Born September 17, 1939)
Thomas-52 (Born June 23, 1948)

Thus, three of the four oldest members of the Court recognize that the Constitution protects the right to choose an abortion under either Roe or Casey. If only two of these three Justices left the Court (most likely Stevens and O'Connor) during the next Presidency, the outcome of the 2000 election could determine whether Roe survives. Furthermore, even if the three oldest Justices left, the next President could appoint three anti-choice Justices who would join with Scalia and Thomas to overturn Roe.

Finally, it seems likely that an anti-choice President would nominate Justices who would overturn Roe/Casey and that the anti-choice Senate would confirm their President's choice. The Senate is likely to remain in anti-choice hands for the foreseeable future. Currently, there are only 32 pro-choice members of the Senate, and pro-choice Senators such as Republican John Chafee of Rhode Island have announced that they will not seek reelection in 2000. Thus, pro-choice forces are not likely to retake the Senate in 2000 and will probably have difficulty overcoming their low numbers by 2002. Therefore, anti-choice Justices who would overturn Roe/Casey are likely to be nominated by an anti-choice President and confirmed by an anti-choice Senate.

The historical record demonstrates that it is accurate to say that the outcome of the next election may determine the fate of Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to choose.

NUMBER OF SUPREME COURT JUSTICES PER PRESIDENT WHO NOMINATED THEM
President Number of Supreme Court Justices
1. George Washington 11 (John Rutledge appointment to Chief Justice counted).
2. John Adams 3
3. Thomas Jefferson 3
4. James Madison 2
5. James Monroe 1
6. John Quincy Adams 6 (Catron nominated by Jackson, confirmed when Van Buren was President).
8. Martin Van Buren 2
9. William Harrison 0
10. John Tyler 1
11. James Polk 2
12. Zachary Taylor 0
13. Millard Fillmore 1
14. Franklin Pierce 1
15. James Buchanan 1
16. Abraham Lincoln 5
17. Andrew Johnson 0
18. Ulysses S. Grant 4
19. Rutherford B. Hayes 2
20. James Garfield 1
21. Chester Arthur 2
22. Grover Cleveland 2
23. Benjamin Harrison 4
24. Grover Cleveland 2
25. William McKinley 1
26. Theodore Roosevelt 3
27. William Taft 5 (Edward White promotion to Chief Justice not counted).
28. Woodrow Wilson 3
29. Warren Harding 4
30. Calvin Coolidge 1
31. Herbert Hoover 3 (Charles E. Hughes appointment to Chief Justice counted).
32. Franklin Roosevelt 8 (Harlan Stone promotion to Chief Justice not counted).
33. Harry Truman 4
34. Dwight Eisenhower 5
35. John Kennedy 2
36. Lyndon Johnson 2
37. Richard Nixon 4
38. Gerald Ford 1
39. Jimmy Carter 0
40. Ronald Reagan 3 (William Rehnquist promotion to Chief Justice not counted).
41. George Bush 2
42. Bill Clinton 2
Total 110
Average 2.62

1 Even after the 22nd Amendment, which limited a President to two terms, a President appoints on average 2.5 Justices. (Twenty-five justices divided by 10 Presidents).

2 Two Justices, John Rutledge and Charles E. Hughes, have been counted twice in the 110 total because they served as Associates Judges, resigned from the Court, and later both served as Chief Justice. Three other Justices have been Associate Justices before becoming Chief Justices: Edward White, Harlan F. Stone, and William Rehnquist. These three Justices were promoted to Chief Justice when they were Associate Justices, and therefore were only counted once because their appointments to Chief Justice did not change the fact that only one new Justice was appointed to the Court.

Here is that link: CLICK HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:15 PM

Shoot shucks, kat, my love! Do you REALLY think I'd do that? The bumper sticker's a good idea though. Maybe I'll pass it along! DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:37 PM

Thomas -
Thanks for the compliment. Being able to grasp the obvious is a definite step up for me. I used to think the whole system was too hopelessly messed up to fix. The conclusion I ran to was that the only hope was to blow it up and start all over. Unfortunately, when you start over with the same people and the same history you end up in the same place. It does matter who you vote for. But you have to remember what you're voting for, too. You're voting for someone who will govern the country as it is, while moving it gently toward what you want it to be.

When I think of Nader, I see Jimmy Carter. A vote for Carter was, as Hunter Thompson put it, a "leap of faith". He was a guy from outside DC who was going to radically change the political scene. All he did while in office was make Ron Reagan look good by comparison. That is not a mistake I will make again. I admire Nader. I always have. But just as Carter's best work was done after he was out of office, Nader's is done as a voice crying out in the wilderness. What Nader would have to do to get elected would effectively silence that voice; what he would have to do while in office would emasculate it.

If I'm too much of a pragmatist for some, that's OK. The revolution (which I have been praying for since the 60's) is not going to start in Washington DC. The revolution is an internal process. It starts here. It starts where people discuss the ideas that may (or may not) improve the world. You may think that Nader is the answer. I think he's dead wrong on trade and would be a terrible president. Who's right isn't as important as the discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:47 PM

I will not flame, I will not flame, I will not flame I will not flame.... When people can't stop pretending that our two party system is Democracy, or that working within the system is going to change the environmental impact of consumer society's addictions, or that violence perpetrated by CIA plants has anything to do with the WTO protests,......I will not flame I will not flame I will not flame I will not flame.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:57 PM

Here Horsie.....Here Horsie.........HEY!!! Could somebody drag that dead horse over here so I can beat it again???

I'm not going into it again actually, but I would suggest that ploitics is a matter of methodology and once the system is established, the thing takes its own course and it may meander a bit, but it is pretty much going to be the same, regardless of the office holder. Remember that Thomas may have made it to the court but Bork did not.

I would recommend reading some of the works of Jacques Ellul...........OKAY, drag the horse over to the pond and we'll see if we can make him drink.........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 02:20 PM

Thomas the Rhymer: I, for one, am proud of you. Flaming accomplishes nothing, though it might provide the flamer some inner satisfaction. A big swig of Guinness will do the same thing and cause a lot less grief. DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 02:28 PM

kat/katlaughing, yes I do believe what I posted. If you look critically at the argument at the link you posted, it's not really an argument at all. It's a conclusion, with a few facts drawn from here and there and some dubious math to prop it up. It's effective propaganda, but it doesn't bear close examination: the argument itself is structured a lot like those that prove so-and-so is the anti-christ, or draw mysterious parallels between Kennedy and Lincoln, etc.

I do not believe that a Bush presidency will result in Roe v. Wade being overturned. I do not believe that I can in good conscience vote for Gore. And, truth is, my entire understanding of the cosmos would be turned upside down if Nader were to win. I don't expect it to happen.

But look at Perot. He didn't win, either, but now the Reform party is a very real power -- not in the presidential race, no -- but they got Jesse Ventura elected. I mean, how surreal can you get? Why did the perotistas become "real", in such a short time? Because they were unhampered by Hipness, by affectations of world-weariness, by cynical posturing about the "lesser of two evils". In short, they believed.

I believe in Ralph, I believe in his intelligence and his decency, and I'm going to vote for him. I don't expect him to win. But that's hardly the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 03:09 PM

Bartholemew raises a good point, in his typically inoffensive and extremely articulate way (I wish I could be like that!). It's not just a question of whose views you like -- it's also a question of who is going to be able to accomplish what he sets out to do if he DOES get elected President. Despite its shortcomings, this IS a democracy -- I reject the arguments of those who would define it otherwise because it doesn't measure up to the ideal (what country does?).

The way things are structured in the USA, the Legislative branch is in charge of making the laws, the Judicial branch is in charge of interpreting the laws, and the Executive branch is in charge of administering the laws. And all, directly or indirectly, are subject to the will of the voters. Which means that people have to work together to get things done -- and working together means compromising, convincing, persuading, maneuvering, horse-trading, etc. A President needs to be able to form alliances and coalitions with people he might not otherwise associate with, and work with them on a sustained basis; he needs to try to win the big battles, even if it means losing the smaller ones. If he can't do those things, the only power he has is the power to make things worse. You may not like it, but that's the way it works.

You want Nader? Vote for him. But think about whether he'll be able to accpomplish anything -- not in some Utopian democracy of the future, but in the country that we actually have today. If you vote him in and he's unable to accomplish anything, when do you think the millions of other voters in this country will give someone else like him another chance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 04:19 PM

You make some very good points, Whistle Stop, and reasonably stated. I would quarrel only with the fact that you consider the U. S. a democracy. This is a republic that we live in, not a democracy, and it was designed so from the beginning. That said, however, your points about compromise is absolutely on target.

Were Nader elected, and I believe the majority of us on this Thread think that is not likely, if he was working with a congress that was not sympathetic with his programs, he would get nothing done.

I seriously do believe, however, that one should vote for the person that best represents his/her own point of view, regardless of whether the candidate has much change of winning or not.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 04:58 PM

Pragmatists will steal the show, while nature's bounty must sadly go, The drama in the trad. folk songs, Is carried over, on and on

Take the highway's motel nights, And leave to freaks the holy sites, As nations, hungry, take our lead, we lead them on, we greed their need

The same old story, written well, Dead horses beaten with crafted spell, While the wealthy wring the old hard sell, of a nation naught in change to dwell

The water here is sweet and fine, your horse won't drink or sing with mine, That 'peace is good' we won't allow, with alarms and locks and dogs that growl

Snicker thou at sincere thought, Remember naught how we've been bought, Vote for stagnancy, thou wilt...The Rome and Babylon we've built

I appologise for my shortcommings, Misspoken words and errant strummings, But you too resist quantum leaps, In failsafe fashion,...vote for creeps!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 06:45 PM

Luther, I would liuke nothing better than to believe Nader would win and to be able to vote for him in good conscience.

Please give specifics as to your argumanet against what I posted from NARAL. I hardly think using hard data about the justices, and the people who might appoint new ones, to try to predict what they might do about women's rights, is akin to trying to prove someone is the anti-christ.

Whether you all think it is an old horse that has been beat to death or not, I don't agree. A woman's right to choose has always been threatened and continues to be. Whatever we can do, those of us who support that concept, to keep it intact, we should do, including voting to keep two very anti-choice people out of the White House.

Thank you,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: bflat
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 08:40 PM

I must have missed this Thread while in between refresh. I too started one on composing a song for the occasion. Frankly, I think Joseph Lieberman is much more than politics. Here is a man who seems to vote based on a belief system rather than sheer party loyalty. I respect that. He also has a sense of humor. Got to like that. I like that Lieberman removes that specious challenge of W that he stands for restoration of character to the Oval Office. It's a great choice.

Let the above thread "Gore and Lieberman" die out unless someone sees and opportunity for a campaign jingle. Jingles can pay a lot of money by advertisers.

bflat


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 09:17 PM

I think Molly Ivins has the best take on this I've seen so far, & hope I'm not trying anyone's patience with the length of the following excerpt:

    " My voting philosophy is simple: In the primaries, go with your heart; in the finals, vote your brain.

"As a veteran Texas voter I am an artist in the art of lesser-evilism. I have voted for more dreary, worthless characters than I care to recall, on the excellent grounds that they were a shade better than the other guy in the race. And what I have learned is that the lesser of two evils does make a difference, especially to those of us on the margins of society.

    To put it inelegantly, we live in a society where the sewage flows downhill, and those on the bottom are drowning in it. To those who are barely keeping their noses above the sewage, it makes all the difference in the world, whether, for example, you pass an awful welfare reform bill or you pass an awful welfare reform bill with an especially nasty amendment by Phil Gramm attached to it.

   "For short-term strategy, lets get Nader the 15 percent support in the polls that the Debate Commission says he needs to appear in the presidential debates. The point here is to move the debate. I am so sick of having to listen to Newt-Gingrich, Rush-Limbaugh Republicans and the Democrats who keep caving to them that I'll vote Nader in a New York minute.

OK, that's because I live in Texas, where a vote for Nader is a "free vote." Our electors are going to Dubya no matter how Democrats here vote, so for us, this is the equivalent of a primary vote: Go with your heart.

The same is true in states with the reverse situation. Massachusetts and New York will go Democratic no matter how the progressives vote; and if we can get Nader and the Green Party the 5 percent they need to qualify for federal spending in 2004, we will, in fact, move the debate. There's every reason to do it, and no reason not to.

    "As for you voters in swing states, where you might actually make a difference - why don't we wait and see how it looks in November?"

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 09:57 PM

Whew! Leave it to Molly to find a great solution!! Since Wyoming is SO traditionally GOP and I know I will be outvoted, I probably WILL vote for Ralph, although last I knew he hadn't enough signatures to get on the ballot here. Well, I guess I can write him in...

Sure wish Lieberman was the top of the Democratic ticket...oh well, thanks Greg!

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 10:08 PM

Molly Ivens! Gag! I'm glad Lieberman is not at the top of the Demo ticket!

:>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: thosp
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:09 PM

"The modern civil rights movement began when Rosa Parks refused to sit down in the back of the bus. It makes us look like jerks for saying there's nothing we can do." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Look back and you'll see that liberal Republicans of the 1970s were better than most Democrats today," Nader says. "That's what we've gotten by voting for the lesser of two evils; it just legitimizes the downward slide of our political system." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- just a couple of excerpts from Nader speechs ---

peace (Y) thosp


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:19 PM

I kind of like the Ficus write-in campaign; if I thought it would count against Bush I'd vote for Ficus in a minute. But I still think that Gore is the closest thing I've seen to someone I'd vote FOR, rather than someone who is The Lesser Of Two Evils. Remember that bumper sticker... CTHULHU FOR PRESIDENT - Why vote for the lesser of 2 evils?

And I do fear for the future of reproductive choice, although it isn't the only thing I'd be afraid of under Bush/Cheney. But it probably is the one that would most directly affect me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:57 PM

What a pitiful state of political affairs...gore picks Lieberman to make himself look more attractive...

and this is being done because he feels threatened by shrub? The knock on Bush was that he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and now his son, who was born with a silver spoon in his nose...and an instant 40 million dollar warchest...is a threat to the peoples candidate? Let me tell you, gore ain't that candidate...

Build a party, Build it around a platform, Build it to serve a constituency that has structure and can deliver votes when needed...Build it as a non electoral party, until it reaches substantial numbers...

Until then, do like I will do, vote for Ralph Nader, who has done more for the American people from outside the halls of power, than any politician of recent times...

And to our new mudcat friend, who thinks that the center is bigger than the left or right...the center is the target for the Bush Gore crowd, and they don't care if it is 2 voters, or 45 million voters...the real political power will come to the party that can invigorate the people who are around 60% of potential voters who have decided the current candidates aren't worth their time. I just left the primary election party in my community, 1200 people voted, out of 10,000 potential...I know who the candidates ought to be courting....


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 12:31 AM

northfolk/al, I think you said it best yourself.

Ralph Nader...has done more for the American people from outside the halls of power...

Nader's strength is in his ability to persuade people to use their real power. The power of the purse.

The purpose of a president is to work with the machinery of government. That involves a whole different kind of ability and skill.

Respectfully, Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: thosp
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 12:37 AM

well CarolC i hope Ralph gets the chance to prove you wrong---- personally i don't think that those who have been working with the machinery of government have been doing thier job very well --

peace (Y) thosp


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 12:55 AM

kat/katlaughing -- thing is, there really isn't a lot of hard data there. The list of presidents and the number of justices they appointed, yes, that's "hard data" in the sense that it's factual. But the relevance of those facts to Roe v. Wade is arguable, to say the least. Even if you accept that 2.62, or 2.8, or 2.5 Supreme court appointments per president is meaningful data, the rest of the argument is conjecture, based on speculation about who will retire, who will be appointed, the future balance in the Senate, etc. That there will be new appointments to the court in the next eight years is a safe bet; that these will be "anti-choice" appointments who will overturn Roe is something of a stretch. Bush not only has to be elected, he has to be re-elected, and with polls showing %70 support for Roe, I don't think he's going to play the "pro-life" card for real. McCain campaigned as "pro-life", look where it got him, and that was the Republican primary.

Roe was written by a Nixon appointee, and has survived Carter, Reagan, Reagan again, Bush, and nearly three decades of "pro-life" posturing in Congress. I don't think it's going away.

For a pithier, funnier, and more cogent take on this, check out Michael Moore's column "Ain't Falling For That One Again" at www.grassroots.com

I can't stretch my imagination far enough to see Nader winning. But I can see a Green party strengthened from the turnout that would result from everyone whose conscience says vote Ralph, voting Ralph.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 03:14 AM

The basic quality that makes Americans seem like one coherent group, is the desire to be on the winning team. This often implies that the voter "needs" to vote for someone they are convinced can win. But who does the convincing around here anyway? The conservative press. As long as we listen to their banter and bicker, We will take the lesser of two evils, or drop out of the "I care about politics" school of thought completely.
Nader is the most reasoning candidate, the most logical man, and has a track record supremo. He should be hard to beat, but he's hard to hear because he contradicts most of what we are taught. The professional politicians would/do not appreciate his approach, because their carrers depend on the system we now have...Pork Barrel! SUUUUUUUIE! SUUUUUUIE! SUUUUUUIE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 04:30 AM

Please Stop with the politics.....

please please please.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 08:44 AM

Ella, we like the politics; why shouldn't we keep this thread going?

DougR, thanks for the constructive input on democracies vs. republics. I am not an expert in political theory, but I assume your correction is based on the fact that the US is not a DIRECT democracy. Point well taken, although I think my subsequent discussion about the need for compromise, negotiation, etc. is still valid.

To get back to the original topic, it seems that Lieberman is generally well-regarded by his colleagues, as Gore himself is (campaign bickering notwithstanding). I just wish they didn't feel so compelled to play the "God and morality" card. This persistent moralizing is damaging to the public discourse, and in my opinion most of it is as phony as a three-dollar bill. In my experience those who feel the need to proclaim their superior virtue often possess less of it than their peers (Richard Nixon was one of the most sanctimonious bastards who ever occupied the White House). I would probably feel better about the Lieberman nomination if I didn't think that it was based primarily on moral posturing and Jewish tokenism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 11:51 AM

There was some very interesting stuff on NPR today comparing and contrasting this year's democratic ticket with JFK's, and how hard it was then to elect a Catholic president, how JFK refused to "play the religion card" and Nixon too, and so on. Very very interesting and I hadn't thought of that comparison at all. Of course, at my age I don't remember that election year, but you folkies who do, what do you think of that?

About tokenism and so on: I don't think that's what it is, I think the "handlers" think he's the best chance Gore has. But I fear, I fear. I remember when I found out, after living in the US for a few years and witnessing amazingly prevalent anti-black racism, that blacks had gotten the vote before women. I was SHOCKED. I mean truly shocked. I would never have pegged us as being more misogynistic than racist. And I see everyday antisemetism; and I think of the Redneck In The Street Who Votes: would they be more likely to object to a semite or a female? Again, I find myself assuming more antisemitism than misogyny, so I think this is a bad idea in terms of Will It Sink The Boat (NOT in terms of Should It Be Done - it's long overdue to have ANY variety in the White House) - but I've underestimated misogyny before, so maybe I'm wrong, and a woman would have hurt the ticket more.

As you see, I am very pessimistic about this whole thing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:00 PM

Whistle Stop: I was in agreement on the balance of what you said in that posting.

Ella: It would be difficult to post meaningfully to this Thread without it involving politics. If you were urging the banning of political duscussion on the Mudcat, sorry, that just won't happen. As long as the differing viewpoints respect the right for folks to differ with them, however, why not discuss politics?

On the Lieberman issue, I think Gore chose him for two reasons: 1. He needs to distance himself from Clinton, and Lieberman offered the best opportunity to do that, and 2. His handlers suggested that selecting a Jewish candidate to run with him would get him a great deal of publicity (which it certainly has ...breaking down the walls, etc. etc.) I'm confident that they never would have suggested it if the polls didn't indicate that it was a good idea. Candidates in both parties rely far to much on polls, in my opinion. One never knows when one hears a candidate express his/her views whether or not those views are really the candidates, or the result of a poll or opinions gathered from a focus group.

Lieberman made perhaps the most effective speech of any in the Senate on the misbehaviour of our President. In the long-run, however, when push came to shove, he did not support impeachment. To him, the president was "half pregnant."

As to the religious issue, any and all who heard Gore and Lieberman on GMA this morning would have to agree, I think, that the two of them played the religious card to a fare-the-well. They were both stumbling all over themselves to claim who had said a prayer when, and who had said it first.

Poor interviewer, Jack Ford; it was obvious, at least to me, that he truly was interested in interviewing the Senator, but the Vice President couldn't abide not being the center of attention in the interview. He couldn't resist tossing in his own two cents at every opportunity.

Personally, I think the Senator is a decent, honorable man who has represented his state well. He was a great choice for Gore to make, and it probably will help him. Whether it will help him enought to get him elected, we will just have to wait and see. The Vice President candidate has never been enough before (for either Party) to carry an election. The race is still going to be between Bush and Gore. My opinion only, of course. DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:47 PM

Don't worry Ella, I'm with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 05:33 AM

Woah get off your soap box

Now I would never insist on the banning of politics talk totally - I believe in freedom of speech. And I also think that you get loads of hype all around elections, wouldn't it be nice if there was somewhere which was free from all the hype and a place to relax and away from the politics

It is just I think that perhaps mudcat is not the best place to do it.

I think that mudcat should be as non political as it can, after all music is meant to bring people together - and it does.

Secondly I get fed up with the American over hype of Elections and the huge amount of money spent on them.

Now, I work for a government group in the UK and I would like to think I can escape from politics and go to the mudcat where I can find out about music, and catch up with what is going on with everyone elses music pastimes.

Okay Whistle... you like politics. Hooray.

And thankyou Mbo for your support. Though I am not worried in the slightest - I can hack it. lol

so there we go - I just think it is the wrong place to discuss these things. Though I do understand the general need to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 12:15 PM

Ella: Have you considered just not tuning in to the political threads? There are not that many, and by far the majority of the threads are not political.

Just a thought.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 12:50 PM

Ella's gotta wetter blanket But when I asked her 'personal'
She did not reply She found a thread not musical
And put it firmly down
Just like the crown'd royalty
I fear that she may...frown Ella, no harm meant, I am interested in PS, and I'm doing my best to restrict my comments to PS threads. I'm actually trying to do this,... O.K?


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 01:03 PM

Oops.....
She did reply, and in good faith!
Now you must understand
I've got a little crow to taste
Delicacies unplaned

SORRY 'BOUT THAT, I SOUNDLY SAY
P.S. though PS here shall stay.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Mbo
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 01:19 PM

Does PS mean Pigeon S***?


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 01:40 PM

Mbo you are a treasure, allow me to explain
You have a great intensity, in it please remain
I find you quite consistant, A music minded man
You're really quite traditional, your role is in the plan...

Dare to be your double, the one who walks with power
The one who seeks not trouble, not now or at any hour
You've got a special genius, on that we all agree
And I for one appreciate your musicallity!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 04:27 AM

ooo Thomas, you are in the wrong century me thinks.

Wasted in this one - lol. Should have been the court jester.

Hey nonny nonny no?

Ella

PS (na na na na naaaaa)


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 01:34 PM

Curiouser and curiouser, unwasted on life
The caliber of conniseur is seen on his knife
Though tricky the devil, a precedent's vice
The jester doth revel in naughtier nice!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: ceitagh
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 02:14 PM

They're all fakes.
ok, since i've started, i might as well continue....this is a rant, so ignore it if you wish.

I am constantly amazed at american politics....amazed occasionally, envious occasionally, and occasionally extremely, extremely cynical. ok, usually extremely, extremely cynical. there is such a liveliness to american politics, i love the contstant debate, the constant bill passing and discussing and vetoing and protesting....that is what keeps the important issues from simply being buried, that is what allows the populace, if they care to get involved, to have a voice. Here (in canada) I often feel that nothing will or can ever change, as it is incredibly difficult for private members bills to pass (or even get a hearing) and the majority of members aren't allowed to vote their conscience anyway.

But despite the lively debate and passion in the american system, it seems that every election year there is more concern that nobody tip the boat than there is anything else. The candidates all put on their straightjackets and choose their carefully measured and weighed partners in rhetoric, tour the country with tailored speeches and quotable sound bites, fitting their "strongly held personal beliefs" (yeah whatever) to the current audience, trying to be everything to everybody....while simoutaneously pouring tons of money (from where? at what price gained?) into subtle smear campaigns designed to be broadly accepted as damning truth. this negative campagning, unfortunatly, works as well, and along the same lines, as a gossip campaign in a student council campaign. it need not be true, and it must never be spoken where it may be refuted, but whispered in hallways and sent in mass e-mail chains to....where it lodges and festers in the minds of many, and woe to the campaign that tries to rise above it, because they've lost. Its all hateful. And it is not democracy, not when the majority does not vote, and those who do, will not vote for who they truly want.
'nuff said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 02:53 AM

ceitagh,

I think you are right in many respects. However, deception by politicians isn't really anything new around here. Franklin D. Roosevelt got around using a wheelchair after he lost the ability to walk because of polio. Most of the American public new nothing about it at the time. F.D.R. didn't want people to know he couldn't walk because he was afraid he would be percieved as being weak.

It's a state of affairs that's been around for a long, long time, I think.

My own opinion about the majority of people voting is that it's not going to happen as long as we have the electoral college.

Respectfully,

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 03:16 AM

Ceitegh! Ceitegh! Hooray!

A teeny weeny nut shell in it for a crack,
Hand me the set of pliers, the dwarf threw out his back.
Simply smashing s'nopsis, bull market by the horns;
You aced this little pop quiz, star golden crown adorns!

thanks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 02:01 PM

Ceitagh: I find little to quarrel with in your posting, and I see now that you live in Canada.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Not At All Musical: Thoughts on VPs?
From: ceitagh
Date: 13 Aug 00 - 11:11 AM

Thanks Rhymer, i think i'll frame that. :-D

Ceit


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 3 August 11:24 PM EDT

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