BS: Kursk fiasco

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:44 AM

Latest info shows that a torpedo blew up inside the Kursk. These torpedos are capable of sinking a battle ship, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn it sank the sub. The concussion alone should have been enough to rupture the blood vessels of everyone aboard. The entire bow was blown open like a cracked nut. I have been a diver long enough to know that at 350 ft there are about ten atmospheres of sea pressure. Under these conditions, I don't think they suffered for very long. == Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: IanC
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 07:59 AM

Larry & PH

Honoured & pleased.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: GUEST,InOBU & The Popular Halfwit
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 10:14 AM

Dear Ian C:
The popular halfwit and I are learning your Kursk ballad to sing in Bath England shortly, hello to all
Larry (InOBU)and the Popular Halfwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 11:43 AM

I am sorry I missed following this thread through the last ten days or so. It was a terrible tragedy and fed all sorts of demons and angels.

Some comments:

Thanks to IanC for that beautiful tribute to those sailors. I was a surface sailor but was originally supposed to be a nuclear submariner. Only a certain stubborn claustrophobia kept me on the surface. This tragedy touched me too.

Wolfgang provided the list of English submarine accidents. One of the topics played with in the posts was national pride and national security as it touched on these accidents. Has anyone else noticed that there were no submarine accidents in that list between 1939 and 1949? That was a time of extreme activity for submarines. Funny thing, that. I wonder if there are similar gaps in lists for other nations. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

Spit Whistle - Thanks for your contribution. As others have said it is greatly appreciated to hear the voice of experience in times like these. Fair winds and following seas, my friend.

It is easy to point fingers when there is a disaster such as this. We must remember that "those who give the orders won't be among the dead and maimed and on each end of the rifle we're the same." Those sailors who someone pointed out were ready to kill are the same as our new friend Spit Whistle. He is out there doing the job he was trained to do. That job is to defend the country he loves. He has made certain sacrifices for that country. The sailors on the Kursk made sacrifices too. They may not have volunteered for Naval Severice but their sacrifices were as real as if they did. And when they sacrificed their lives they gave their nation the greatest gift they could. We must respect them and honor them, no matter what we think of the poitical system they were defending.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From:
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 09:20 AM

Sorcha...

Believe me when I say I cried for the crew of Kursk. They suffered a death so nightmarish and undeserved it should bring tears for many years to come. Furthermore, it became their destiny to die for a nation who gladly left them in the sea to cover their own miserable hides. I totally agree that politics is far from the most relevant issue here, but still: -the way everything turned out is the result of politics-

-Mudcat-

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 01:19 AM

Uh Oh, Auntie Scorch is finally on the rampage----Banjo Johnny--are you williing to die 350 feet down on the floor of a freezing sea? In absolute darkness with NO air to breathe? Can you possibly imagine a worse way to die? Do you think that these sailors PERSONAL deaths had anything at all to do with their PERSONAL POLITICS? or more to the point, with the International politics of RUSSIA, or whatever it is politically called on August 26th?

These were PEOPLE, 118 of them or possibly more. REAL people with mothers, fathers, wives, children ......without a real voting alternative to their governing body, and you Johnny, want to bring in the POLITICS of Government?

And the Mucdat@aol has a point--just what were these boats/subs/ships (whatever) doing in the Waters they were in,this time, or SOME OTHER TIME?? Are these International Waters, Oslo Bay, or Russian "home" waters?

Bottom line, Johnny, is that these were REAL two legged people,and they died in the worst way I can imagine--alone, in absolute dark, in the cold, cold water without air to breathe. Think about that, will you? Then tell me POLITICS!!!

Excuse me, but NO! and NO! and NO! These mens' PERSONAL politics had NOTHING BUT NOTHING to do with their dying. International politics MAY have, faulty technology MAY have,but YOUR country (USA) has ships/boats in International Waters, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 01:06 AM

IanC, I, too, hope you write many more. That was just beautiful and so poignant. I hope you will share it with Aine and allow her to put it in the Mudcat Songbook. And, I agree, teh last two lines, esp. were brill...thank you

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: The Beanster
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 12:09 AM

I feel bad for them (and their families, of course). If they were unlucky enough to live through that explosion, no one deserves to die by way of slow suffocation, freezing cold, in the dark. A bunch of dumb kids in a tin can under the sea. They were no different from any soldier, the world over.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:59 PM

That is why I can't get too choked up about the "brave Russian sailors". Their tubes aren't loaded with Candy Kisses. We should remember that until their boat sank, they were able and willing to destroy any vessel if ordered to do so, including the boats of their "brother" submariners of other countries. == Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From:
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 01:13 PM

Regarding the KURSK tragedy....

As a norwegian, I have a sincere interest in the actions of the Russian millitary, and the Russian nawy in particular. For many years, Russian subs have patrolled Norwegian territories, for purposses unknown. There have even been millitary submarines in the Oslo bay at broad daylight. It seemes obvious that the Russian authorities never intended to rescue anyone from Kursk, no more than they wanted the sub to surface ever again. (Wich might be just as well, concidering the risk of radioactive pollution) And what the hell were they doing anyway, prepearing to launch torpedoes in international waters, with foreign ships an population nearby?

These are dangerous times.

-Mudcat-

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From:
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 12:49 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 10:19 PM

Nice one IanC, fair play to you.

The last two lines are brilliant.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 08:22 PM

IanC
Lovely song! As I scolled down, I though, Lady Franklynn, and sure enough, that is what you thought. Lovely song, and I am sure it will grace a focsle or two soon.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: jeffp
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 09:47 AM

A fitting tribute, IanC.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Troll
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 08:30 AM

IanC: It was worth posting. And I hope you write many more, albeit on happier subjects.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: IanC
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 08:21 AM

Roger wrote

I am pessimistic that the belated rescue attempts will be in time, I fear that someone will be composing a ballad to a lost brave crew on the lines of the "Springhill Mine Disaster" soon.

He's obviously been proved right, though what was going round in my mind was the Franklin expedition rather than Springhill. Quite uncharacteristically, whilst commuting to and from work, a song developed. This is the first and probably the only song I'll write, but I've posted it here for what it's worth. Perhaps somebody will make soething useful out of it. The last 2 verses were originally alternative endings, but I've kept both.

THE SUBMARINE KURSK
(tune: Lady Franklin's Lament)

One Sunday morning I lay half-awake
My thoughts confused by my sleepy state
When first I heard on the radio
The fate of The Kursk and all of her crew

Whilst cruising slowly neath the Barents Sea
A great explosion, by some mystery,
Opened a hole in the bow, and then,
She went to bottom there with all her men

Some said there was news, and some said none,
Some said that all their air, it had all gone
The Russian Navy couldn't get her free
For stormy weather and the rolling sea

Those seafaring peoples they called upon
Britain and Norway sent both crew and men
While day on day the time passed by
If any had lived, we fear they'll die

And when The Kursk was opened in the deep
Wives, parents, comrades they had cause to weep
The Kursk was flooded, all its men long drowned
Only dead bodies was all that they found

Ye bold submariners, as you pass by
Take ye the glass, but don't drink it dry
Think on their fate as their bodies lie
Trapped and drowning in the Barents Sea

And, yes, my memory it does give me pain
Thoughts of all the mariners the sea has slain
The ocean cruel no pity gives
Nor yet a tear in its eyes do live

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:03 AM

I've already lost my cookie, 'Spaw.
What do I do, man? This is getting all surreal and purply!!!!

Anyway, I'd logged out, and I just heard, that Putin has gone back to Moscow, WITHOUT attending the service of rememberance, which is scheduled for today.
The good news is.....that each of the families will get roughly $10,000 (the figure I got is 65,000 Norsk Kroner - so it's a rough conversion).
I think that it also works out as 10 years wages.

This sum is being paid by insurance companies; I didn't hear anything about the Russian Government putting their hand in their pocket to see how much spare change they had.

Anyway, thanks for the concern. I'll definately keep an eye out for any kind of head. But that's sort of like a sixth sense, anyway.

B.
(off to the shops to search for some decent EEC beef)

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 08:46 AM

I think it would depend on the location of the head Brendy.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 02:19 AM

Can a picture paint 1000 words, or what?
The caption says:
With downcast eyes
President Putin is saluted by Vladimir Kurojedov, Chief of Command of the Russian Navy.

The article is about his visit to see the relatives of the crew members, and about his travelling route to the scene, being kept secret.

There's also sketchy reports, oddly enough, by Russian T.V. of increased radiation (7 times normal) in the Barents Sea area; The Norwegian Radiation Institute, have detected no increase.

If I start sprouting a second head, or something, I'll let you know!!!!

Don't even joke about it, Brendy

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Cobble
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:29 PM

today our hearts must go out to the families of the sailors. Tomorrow we must look to what happens now!! Do the Russians have the means to make the Nuk. Reactors safe. Or will they leave them on the bottom of the sea to pollute the sea for ever? Cobble's SO

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:10 PM

Just on the News, 10 mins ago:

Putin has just met the families of the crew. The Press were not allowed to participate in this, and were kept away.
Apparently he has asked for forgiveness from the families, and said that he would do "all in his power" to make it up to them.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:46 AM

I saw a programme on NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Authourity) the other night, where the obligatory 'panel of experts' were in place to discuss all of this, and it's implications.
Among those present was a representative of the Russian News Agency, and he was asked more or less the same question that sledge now asks.

He told us that we have to bear in mind that Putin is a relative 'new boy' at diplomatic things. That he has advisors inexperienced in the art of the video and sound byte, and that in all probability, the newsman said, Putin thought that by going up to Murmansk, he would be putting more pressure on the rescuers; that this was not the field of his particular expertise, so he basically 'let the professionals do their job'.

For an inexperienced diplomat, I can see the logic of this action. I don't agree with the premise, but I can see the line of argument.

But to be interviewed at his Black Sea resort, in a white shirt, drink on table, looking very relaxed and suntanned, even smiling at times, was a big mistake, in the eyes of the journalist.

Norwegian T.V. news yesterday made a big point of the fact, that it took the Norwegian divers 1/2 hour to do what the Russians couldn't do in a week.

Which leads me to suggest that Putin should have been there, byte or no byte.
I'm a bit uncertain, though, about the eventual effect of all of this on his position as President.
I hate to say it, but in Russia at least, this will blow over, as people return to worrying about foraging an existence.

The mafias are blowing up apartment blocks in big cities, killing hundreds of people; big news when it started, cos the Chetchen freedom fighters were blamed originally, but now seems like old news, even though it happens almost on a weekly basis.

I have been looking at Russian T.V over the past week, on and off, and although it is seen as a tragedy, and there are angry people ringing in to their stations, it doesn't have that 'lingering story' feel about it.

On the whole, I have found the reporting of this story by the Norwegians incredibly even handed (although I saw that they were a little 'proud' of their achievement).
They don't have the same kind of reporting that infests the 'Murdoch school', and they are surprisingly even-handed when it comes to journalistic practise.

But whatever about what BBC, CNN, or Sky, not covering the 'hostile attack' thoery, I can assure you that it is still a talking point here, and privately being discussed at higher levels, from what I can glean from it all.

But just like the bombing of the Chinese Embassy, if there was going to be a war, I think we would have known about it by now, one way or another.

I'll be keeping a close eye on reindeer shit statistics over the next weeks, though; we haven't heard any adverse stories about leaks yet, and I don't know whether this is good news or bad news.

Just to give you a few chronological facts:

1: The Norwegians, British, and Russians (N. B. R.) go down to open the sub.
2: N. open the top hatch, which was found to be flooded with water. Some R. sailors (3-4) were found dead here.
3: Second hatch 'unscrewed' (presumably by N., but could have been by R.)
3: N. and B. withdrew from the area, back to mother ship.
4: Some hours later R. asks N. to recover bodies.

I haven't heard any news today, yet.
I thought point 4 to be an interesting one, though.

Keep you posted!

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: GUEST,sledge
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 06:51 AM

It seems that the Norwegian divers have opened the Kursk and found a flooded Submarine, there will be no Survivors.

As an Ex RN submariner I am gutted that this is how it all ends, I was at sea on my boat when the Soviet submarine Komsolets, caught fire at sea several years ago, the only feeling on board was to want to help. That feeling is still there. Should such an accident occurr again I hope it will be born in mind that the desire to help in the Submariner community is genuine.

I wonder how that Prick Putin will explain this to the families.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 09:46 PM

I understand the British divers went in today sometime early and the damage was even worse that previously assumed. God speed those poor souls to the gates of whatever heaven they believe in. I do hope the families receive honest answers in a timely manner. I, for one, believe it was a torpedo cooiking off. This time. God almighty knows there is enough "National security" crapola that goes on in all govenrments all the time. If I am wrong or not probably doesn't matter. What matters is that the sailors of the Kursk deserve a better eulogy than "OOPS! This doesn't happen in Mother Russia so let's sweep it under the rug." May they be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows they're dead. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 08:42 PM

Couldn't agree more about the Tridents Brendy. It's my view we shouldn't have them in the first place.

As for Shayler, I haven't followed it too closely and didn't realise he had a connection with the "shoot to kill" scandal. I'd be more interested to know what was in those files that were lost in a mysterious fire in an upstairs office at Carrickfergus. And I'm hoping we'll get to hear more about how some innocent folk got killed in that alleged attempt at murdering Gadaffi.

Sorry for thread drift, but all hope has long since gone for the crew of the Kursk.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:43 AM

I'm afraid, Cobble, they should have cut out the politics last Saturday.
If that had happened, our thoughts would have been with less crew members' families at this stage in all probability.

They always have been in my thoughts

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Cobble
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:38 AM

Cut out the politics, our thoughts should be with the family's of the crew. I was a Royal Navy submariner.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:32 AM

And don't try to tell us Fionn, that if the same fate were to befall one of the Royal Navy's Trident Class subs, that their brass would let a French crew into the thing to have a look around. And they're supposed to be allies.

In that they would have acted no different to the Russians.

And lives would have been lost just the same.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:25 AM

Well, I hope you have your nice, safe, explanation confirmed, Fionn. I'm not flying any kites, old stick; I'm telling you what has been reported on NRK radio and T.V., plus the Norwegian newspapers.

The 'film scenario' will never happen, though. Not by any of the survivors, anyway.

As of 12.16pm CET, ALL sailors have been confirmed dead.

Wonder what light Shayler may shine on the Stalker Report?

Love to be a fly on that wall, eh?

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:18 AM

Brendy, having distanced yourself from the "warning shot" theory, I see you're now flying another kite! Whether it's "accepted" that the Brits had two ships in the area is not really the point. The (Royal"!) navy have said none of their ships was involved in any incident, and if they were lying aout that, they would soon be exposed.

It's not so easy to keep the lid on things as 50 years ago, as I hope the imminent return to Britain of the renegade MI5 (secret service) officer David Shayler will soon be reminding us.

I can understand your preference (and the media's) for a dramatic explanation, but my money's on a self-contained incident - most likely a torpedo exploding in the hatch. That would be enough to explain Russian unease at having foreign rescue teams crawling all over the wreck.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:34 PM

OH, JAYSUS!! such crap, no? We would NOT want the Brits or the Norsks to be the first to debrief the corpses, now would we? My gut has said for days that they are all dead. Just bring up the sub, and tell us WHAT HAPPENED! I doubt that will ever happen, though. The World will never really know, as per National Security. "GOD Save the Nation!"-- not the Planet. sarcasm, there.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:26 PM

It's no problem, Sorcha....I'm used to it *RLGSLOLT* (*rather large grin showing loads of lovely teeth*)

But seriously, though,, I see that the Russians, Norwegians, and the British have been arguing all day about whether the escape hatch is damaged or not.
The Brits and the Norsk reckon that they can dock with the sub, the Ruskies say it's impossible, as the hatch is too damaged.

They have been debating this point all day, and I have just heard that they will begin a 3-4 hour descent soon (whatever that means). On board will be some Russian divers as well.

Can't have the Brits de-briefing the corpses, I suppose.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:03 PM

OK, Brendy, point taken. Sorry, friend. Apology tendered, and I now understand what you meant. Yes, unfortunately, you are correct. If there is a survivor, the vultures will gather. They always do, don't they? And make a little money in the process. Again, sorry, and it is hard to do sarcasm in print, without a lead in.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:58 PM

Come on, Sorcha.

Do not doubt my concern and saddness surrounding this incident. What would I be trolling to get?.

Those few words that I wrote will sum up the situation after this one scared Russian sailor gets stretchered into hospital.

What's going to happen then?
Ted Turner is only one of many names that will be looking for his little signature on a large piece of paper.
Said Russian sailor will then become a commodity, and the real Hunt For Red October will be made.

I don't doubt at all that this man (if he does indeed exist), will never be the same man again. But at least he will be able to afford the best of psychiatric help. It will be his ticket out of the Navy, and the chance for a well-deserved new life.

It's not me being cruel, Sorcha. It's just the way things go, because the vultures have to have their share.
Sarcasm and irony is hard to convey in the written word, without loads of :)s, ;)s, and :-0)s, and stuff.
And I don't normally get into that kind of thing. *BG*

Ooops ;)

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:48 PM

Spaw, they made him a Captain because he was supposed to be good at making Exective Decisions--would you zig-zag if you couldn't see the bow from the stern? And, and the Japanese captain said, he would have shot anyway,well, anyway, as you said, the point is still valid. For you who missed the point, the point is:

Captian made decision in extremis. Ship went down. Very few survivors, because US Command REFUSED to HEAR mayday cries. US Command was afraid that would give away the fact that they had broken the Japanese Naval Code, so they let sailors die instead. Crap like this happens all the time in any country's military. Ask my brother--he is currently in US Army, Ft. Sill, OK. You people would NOT beleive (OK, maybe you Catters would, but not John Q Public)just what is "withheld" from the general populace. The government does not consider this to be "lying". Just National Security.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:24 PM

With survival suits a person can survive (hence the name) cold water for quite awhile & as for surviving I'm very lucky to still have a brother even if he's only part of his former self & he only visits his mates in his mind, thank God he's not resting there with them. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:20 PM

Actually Sorcha, the captain of the Indianapolis did make an executive decision NOT to zig-zag as per standing orders and was court martialed for that offense. The Captain of the Japanese sub that torpedoed the Indianapolis testified at the trial and stated that he would have made the shot whether or not the cruiser was zig-zagging or not, but in the part of the testimony that was emphasized he stated that the ship was tracking straight. He had seen the Indianapolis outbound for Tinian and laid in wait in its path on the return.

Your point however is well taken as the US had NO IDEA that the ship was missing for several days because of the secrecy of the mission. No one ever really shouldered the blame for that error and the loss of most of the men was due to the extra days spent in the water.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:12 PM

Show me Ted Turner, ALL ALONE in a kapok life vest or a single flotation device in an Artic sea, and I will show you a dead man. Show me Ted Turner as the only survivor after a week alone on the Artic sea bed, and I will show you a crazy man. I don't know him personally, but I seriously doubt the man is a true Survivor Personality. And, you know I wasn't talking about media people......come on Brendy, I think somewhere inside you DO know better, you are just trolling in the wrong place.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:02 PM

Oh I'm sure Ted Turner could make his misery a bit more bearable.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:59 PM

Unfortunaltely, yes, Brendy. Look up the story of the USS Indianapolis, South Pacific, late WW2. Her captain was court martialed for doing what he was told to do, and for making executive decisions in the face of danger.

Policy is- - - NATIONAL SECRECY ABOVE ALL!! Why should we need this sheeeeeeit at all? We have a Global Community here at Mudcat,we don't needTorpedoes wejust play a few songs, have a good argument, and it is yesterdays news.

Think about this: You are the ONLY person left alive on a submarine, out of nearly 200--are you EVER going to be really OK again? I, personally, would rather go down with my friends than live with that.

And, another thought--even if there were escape suits/pods, etc for the Sailors, just how long could a human survive unprotected in an Arctic sea? Not very damn long, my friends, not very damn long. Nor in a warm sea with sharks and no water, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:41 PM

I think it is accepted (depending on where one gets one's News from), that the British had two 'vessels' in the immediate vicinity at the time of the explosion.
Irrespective of whether an exchange of fire took place, the British military, and by association, every other NATO member, knew of this explosion when it happened.

The Russians were heavily criticised at the time for not notifying the rest of the World about the Chernobyl incident; they were only forced to admit it after the reindeer herds in the north of Norway were shown to have have radio-active shit.
But if NATO knew about a potential incident when it happened, why didn't they, at least, tell us that something had happened?
Military secrecy taking precedence over peoples' lives?

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:24 PM

Zhirinovski said, "The American Government is unhappy with the change of direction within Russian foreign policy; contact with North Korea, better relations with Libya, and Moscow's wish to lift the sanctions against Iraq" -- HE GOT THAT RIGHT !

What I would like to know is -- perhaps Spit Whistle can answer this -- is there such a thing as a "warning torpedo" ?? == Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 03:36 PM

I heard, though, Fionn, that the ammunition they were issued for the manoeuvres was TNT, which would mean the detonation of between 1 1/2 and 2 tons, to measure 3.5 (the revised figure) on the Richter.

I also heard today that one Russian sailor is trapped in the airlock between the hatches, and he may be alive. The Norwegians, and the British, on the other hand, are trying to make a tool that will open the damaged hatch.
They've been at it all day, by all accounts.

More to come, no doubt.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:35 AM

I don't think this point has been made above (sorry if it has and I've overlooked it) but apparently the Russian navy was reissued with a new type of torpedo in 1998. The naval high command resisted like hell, on the basis that the new ammo was considered to be dangerously volatile and hard to handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: raredance
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:55 PM

I personally think the "collision" scenario is Russian PR spin that may play well with some of their constituents at home. A collision with another ship (sub)followed by an exlposion would have done just as much damage to the other vessel and would have left it foundering or on the bottom also. The presence of a large underwater mesa would be obvious on everybody's sonar. It seems improbable that a 400 foot ship running into a beluga whale would trigger such a disaster. I guess two subs exchanging torpedo volleys can't be totally ruled out (Russian/Norwegian, or perhaps a Russian/Russian friendly fire exchange). A torpedo malfunction seems more likely. The initial explosion would set off the remainder of the asenal in a bigger second explosion. Today's CNN reports from the head of the Russion navy indicated that forward damage was much more severe than earlier reports and that they don't have any real hope for survivors. Even the rear escape hatch suffered some damage (see the posts above about doors and hatches). It is likely that most of the sailors were killed in the initial explosions. Russian TV has scrolled the names of the lost sailors. I had heard earlier in the week that the US sub rescue equipment was stationed in California, so the British equipment was much closer by sea or by air.

I hope the families of the sailors get some straight answers.

rich r

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 07:59 PM

Well, Neil, that was Zjirinovskij's take on it, anyway.
The thing about those kind of statements is that they do not need to be true. They only need to raise the spectre of doubt. And after all, what do we mere mortals know about what really goes on in the corridors of power?

The Men Behind the Guns - by Phil Ochs and John Rooney Good choice, Lorcán.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Banjer
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 07:46 PM

I don't if it was coincidence or on purpose but I just watched a History Channel presentation on submarine rescue and Cmdr Charles "Swede" Monsen(sp?). It showed footage of the rescue of the men of the Squalus in the 1930's. Many of the thoughts I had earlier about ways of escaping a sub were covered in the show. There was a type of breathing apparatus designed by Cmdr Monsen that would allow a person to leave a sunken sub and breathe through a controlled ascent to the top. Yes, Neil, I too heard similar news reports that hope is fast dwindling. My thoughts and prayers to all the families involved with this tragedy. Even though the brave men involved were of a foreign government, once our enemy, their dedication to their duty and their ideals are no less significant. (Almost sounds like a recent discussion of the imminent internment of the Hunley crew, doesn't it?)

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:47 PM

Ron; From an old surface sailor, welcome to mudcat. I did my time on bird farms. I rather doubt the scenarios posted above. We (The U.S.) are not going to risk a nuclear war because Moscow takes a different tack with Libya or North Korea. The idea sounds like paranoia (A failing not limited to Russian politicians by any means) The U.K. or Norway certainly aren't going to risk that type of war either. I believe it was a collision or some sort of torpedo coook off. Meanwhile I continue to pray for those men and hope the rest of you do also. kindest reguards Neil PS As I write this, the news is saying that the crew of the Kursk is likely dead, God have mercy on them if they are. I shall mourn them for the brave men they were if it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: Banjer
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:34 PM

I'm assuming that the 'sail' that is being refered to here is what I called the conning tower. Thanks to SpitWhistle for sharing with us his firsthand knowledge. Granted, many things would have to go RIGHT for any system to work, but it seems with our high levels of technology that things could be developed that could overcome such circumstances. What would it take to develop some sort of system, an advanced form of life jacket if you will, that an indivual could be issued and keep with him during his tour aboard a sub that could be easily accessed in times of emergency that would give him enough air to get to the surface? It could also be fitted with a locating beacon that would be picked up by sattelite and transmitted to rescue personell. I know they would have to rise in stages to prevent nitrogen narcosis, but given the other option I think I would have to try it. If at least a few of the Kursk's crew had been able to escape in this fashion, how different would have been the rescue efforts with their knowledge of what happened? Will continue to monitor news reports for any glimmer of hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:31 PM

Ah SpawBach (again as Tristam would have called you...):
I was a teanage warfrat when Tristam was on the bum in New York in the early days of South Street Seaport, good to know others remember him.
Yup Brendy, it is an Alice in Wonderland world, and we poor sods who work - get hurt and wet. Did you ever hear the Phil Oachs song, "The men behind the guns"? It would be a good tribute to the men of the Kursk to post it.
All the best,
Larry