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BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters

Bearheart 16 Aug 00 - 12:48 AM
Sorcha 16 Aug 00 - 01:06 AM
katlaughing 16 Aug 00 - 07:45 AM
kendall 16 Aug 00 - 08:18 AM
MMario 16 Aug 00 - 08:26 AM
kendall 16 Aug 00 - 11:26 AM
Bill D 16 Aug 00 - 12:52 PM
Bearheart 16 Aug 00 - 02:34 PM
katlaughing 16 Aug 00 - 04:41 PM
Jim Krause 16 Aug 00 - 04:41 PM
Mbo 16 Aug 00 - 04:49 PM
Bill D 16 Aug 00 - 05:00 PM
Irish Rover 16 Aug 00 - 05:08 PM
Irish Rover 16 Aug 00 - 05:21 PM
Shanti 16 Aug 00 - 05:49 PM
katlaughing 16 Aug 00 - 06:46 PM
Escamillo 17 Aug 00 - 01:08 AM
Bearheart 17 Aug 00 - 01:56 AM
Sourdough 17 Aug 00 - 02:41 AM
Bearheart 17 Aug 00 - 02:23 PM
Bearheart 17 Aug 00 - 02:26 PM
Bill D 17 Aug 00 - 02:46 PM
Mbo 17 Aug 00 - 03:05 PM
SINSULL 17 Aug 00 - 03:09 PM
Peg 17 Aug 00 - 03:11 PM
Irish Rover 17 Aug 00 - 04:47 PM
Naemanson 17 Aug 00 - 05:09 PM
Jeri 17 Aug 00 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,Astro fan 17 Aug 00 - 06:19 PM
Fortunato 17 Aug 00 - 06:47 PM
Crowhugger 17 Aug 00 - 07:11 PM
Mbo 17 Aug 00 - 07:14 PM
Bearheart 18 Aug 00 - 12:05 AM
Brendy 18 Aug 00 - 12:13 AM
Bearheart 18 Aug 00 - 12:17 AM
Alice 18 Aug 00 - 12:22 AM
Escamillo 18 Aug 00 - 12:36 AM
Bagpuss 18 Aug 00 - 05:58 AM
Bearheart 18 Aug 00 - 09:40 AM
katlaughing 18 Aug 00 - 09:42 AM
Jeri 18 Aug 00 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Tommi 18 Aug 00 - 11:43 AM
Turtle 18 Aug 00 - 11:49 AM
katlaughing 18 Aug 00 - 11:53 AM
Sourdough 18 Aug 00 - 12:24 PM
dwditty 18 Aug 00 - 09:10 PM
GUEST,davewilkes 19 Aug 00 - 01:23 AM
hesperis 19 Aug 00 - 01:27 AM
Alice 19 Aug 00 - 11:31 AM
katlaughing 19 Aug 00 - 02:07 PM
Naemanson 19 Aug 00 - 02:50 PM
katlaughing 19 Aug 00 - 03:04 PM
Alice 19 Aug 00 - 05:08 PM
Mbo 19 Aug 00 - 05:21 PM
katlaughing 19 Aug 00 - 06:12 PM
Bill D 19 Aug 00 - 06:27 PM
Mbo 19 Aug 00 - 06:31 PM
katlaughing 19 Aug 00 - 06:38 PM
Bill D 19 Aug 00 - 09:20 PM
Escamillo 19 Aug 00 - 09:36 PM
Naemanson 20 Aug 00 - 07:00 PM
Mbo 20 Aug 00 - 07:38 PM
Alice 20 Aug 00 - 09:28 PM
celticblues5 20 Aug 00 - 10:07 PM
Alice 20 Aug 00 - 10:12 PM
Lena 21 Aug 00 - 06:28 AM
celticblues5 21 Aug 00 - 12:11 PM
Turtle 21 Aug 00 - 12:45 PM
Mbo 21 Aug 00 - 12:47 PM
Art Thieme 21 Aug 00 - 01:13 PM
Hoolet 22 Aug 00 - 05:15 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Aug 00 - 05:29 PM
Mbo 22 Aug 00 - 05:31 PM
celticblues5 23 Aug 00 - 01:29 AM
Alice 23 Aug 00 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,John D. 23 Aug 00 - 01:18 PM
Turtle 23 Aug 00 - 03:11 PM
Diva 23 Aug 00 - 04:34 PM
Bearheart 23 Aug 00 - 05:17 PM
Little Hawk 24 Aug 00 - 03:24 PM
Bearheart 25 Aug 00 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,I remain 25 Aug 00 - 06:58 PM
GUEST 25 Aug 00 - 10:49 PM
Bearheart 26 Aug 00 - 08:37 PM
Jimmy C 27 Aug 00 - 01:03 AM
Seamus Kennedy 28 Aug 00 - 12:38 AM
katlaughing 28 Aug 00 - 01:08 AM
Bearheart 28 Aug 00 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Michael in Swansea 29 Aug 00 - 07:03 AM
Wolfgang 29 Aug 00 - 09:02 AM
Naemanson 29 Aug 00 - 12:09 PM
Alice 29 Aug 00 - 01:57 PM
hesperis 30 Aug 00 - 02:27 AM
Alice 30 Aug 00 - 11:45 AM
Bearheart 31 Aug 00 - 06:30 PM
Bearheart 06 Sep 00 - 07:38 PM
Art Thieme 06 Sep 00 - 11:05 PM
GUEST 07 Sep 00 - 12:50 PM
kendall 07 Sep 00 - 02:58 PM
kendall 07 Sep 00 - 03:02 PM
Bagpuss 07 Sep 00 - 04:15 PM
katlaughing 07 Sep 00 - 05:56 PM
momnopp 07 Sep 00 - 10:45 PM
Wolfgang 08 Sep 00 - 05:55 AM
Bagpuss 08 Sep 00 - 06:31 AM
sian, west wales 08 Sep 00 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Mongo 08 Sep 00 - 01:05 PM
Alice 08 Sep 00 - 01:36 PM
Alice 08 Sep 00 - 01:57 PM
katlaughing 08 Sep 00 - 02:20 PM
SINSULL 08 Sep 00 - 03:21 PM
Naemanson 08 Sep 00 - 04:19 PM
katlaughing 08 Sep 00 - 04:33 PM
Bearheart 13 Sep 00 - 03:19 AM
Wolfgang 13 Sep 00 - 05:56 AM
hesperis 13 Sep 00 - 07:56 AM
kendall 13 Sep 00 - 08:42 AM
katlaughing 13 Sep 00 - 10:34 AM
GUEST 13 Sep 00 - 11:24 AM
Bearheart 13 Sep 00 - 01:08 PM
Escamillo 13 Sep 00 - 02:33 PM
Bearheart 14 Sep 00 - 01:40 AM
Escamillo 14 Sep 00 - 03:23 AM
katlaughing 14 Sep 00 - 09:45 AM
Escamillo 14 Sep 00 - 01:36 PM
Bearheart 14 Sep 00 - 02:54 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 00 - 03:05 PM
guinnesschik 14 Sep 00 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,John D. 14 Sep 00 - 11:34 PM
Bearheart 15 Sep 00 - 12:42 AM
guinnesschik 15 Sep 00 - 08:21 PM
Bearheart 16 Sep 00 - 05:24 PM
The Lighthouse 16 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM
guinnesschik 17 Sep 00 - 11:04 AM
katlaughing 08 Feb 01 - 03:53 PM
Mary in Kentucky 08 Feb 01 - 04:03 PM
Katcina 09 Feb 01 - 12:17 PM
Pondering It All 10 Feb 01 - 02:17 PM
katlaughing 10 Feb 01 - 04:03 PM
GUEST 27 Aug 02 - 01:16 PM
Jim Krause 28 Aug 02 - 11:16 AM
Bearheart 28 Aug 02 - 11:17 AM
dorareever 28 Aug 02 - 11:56 AM
dorareever 28 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Marie 28 Aug 02 - 03:16 PM
Bearheart 18 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM
Pennny 19 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM
Sibelius 19 Sep 02 - 05:22 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 19 Sep 02 - 05:54 PM
GUEST 19 Sep 02 - 06:00 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 19 Sep 02 - 06:10 PM
katlaughing 19 Sep 02 - 06:20 PM

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Subject: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:48 AM

I've been a professional astrologer for a bunch o' years (though not as long as I've been singing), and one of my major interests is research into various populations and how they map out astrologically. I'm interested in setting up a study-- purely for fun and my own 'satiable curiosity-- to see if the traditional associations of planetary influences show up in musician's charts. I'm looking for correlates to particular astrological influences related to:

Style of music played Instrument played Singer Song (or tune) writer Professional Non-Professional Long-time musician New to music (Useful to know the age you were when you started doing what you do, but not necessary) Prefer to play in a group Prefer to play alone motivation for playing music (optional!)

What I need from you in order to do a birthchart is date, time and place of birth. I do not want or need to know your name (though you might want to choose one to go with the chart) or any other identifying information. I suggest that you send me any info in a personal message, not via this thread. There are hundreds of possible astrological factors that can show up in a chart that could be related to musical talent and I will be looking at those for commonalities. As a professional (since 1980-- the previous 10 years I did it just for fun) I am committed to confidentiality.

Also I'm prepared to mail you hard copy of the chart itself-- though I wouldn't have time to read them all for everyone. And I'll share the results (ie 80% of guitar players had Neptune in the 10th house of career) with the forum.

If you need to know more about what I do I have a website.

Thanks for your time.

Bearheart


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 01:06 AM

Cool! I can do that, will PM you.........sounds neat.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 07:45 AM

Sounds very interesting, BearHeart, may we please have a link or addy for your website? Or, if you prefer, by PM? Here's an interesting tidbit just for starters: all five siblings and my parents are all very musical - 4 Aries daughters; Leo- son; Taurus- father; and Mom was a Pisces! Quite a combo!

I will PM you later today. Would like to see your website.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:18 AM

How can I send you a pm with no info in the resources?


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: MMario
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:26 AM

kendall - you can send a personal message since he is a member. Go to your personal pages, select "send a message" and type in bearheart. it's e-mail we can't do without additional info...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 11:26 AM

I figured that out..thought I deleted my post. thanks


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:52 PM

had a friend ask me for those stats once. She had this BIG book...I told her & she looked me up as I was saying.."but you know, I don't really put much stock in those things"

"Yes", she replied. "that's JUST what your profile says you'd say!"

I give up.....


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 02:34 PM

Thanks to the folks who have responded so far. My webpage is:

http://www.frognet.net/~healing/

So Bill D I'd REALLY like to see your chart! Sceptics are my favorites (much rubbing of hands) because I was one once -- a long time ago-- and prided myself on it. But I prefer them to be open-minded sceptics. The only real scientists are those willing to accept new data.

MMario-- I'm a female Bearheart. The best kind--we don't let any one mess with our cubs, or anyone else we like! Especially when we have four planets in Cancer! An easy mistake to make...

Hugs,

Bearheart


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:41 PM

Nice website, Bearheart. we have a lot in common interest-wise!

I'll be in touch,

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Jim Krause
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:41 PM

OK, I'll bite, too. Although there is some little niggling voice inside me that keeps saying "Don't divulge too much, now Soddy."


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:49 PM

It's a well-known fact that Sagittarians are naturally gifted as music. Like me 'n you-know-who. Dick Clark also agrees.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:00 PM

...but why Astrology and not Phrenology or Tarot or Palmistry or Tea Leaves or Haruspexy?..(entrails of a goat, I believe) and you are new, so you didnt see the post I made to another thread about Bisba, a book I have that purports to read WOMENS character by the shape & size of their breasts....do wonder that I am kept busy almost full time just being a proper sceptic? *big grin*...an energetic, eclectic, hectic sceptic, I am....


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Irish Rover
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:08 PM

Hi Bearheart, I was born 4/5/47 in Lurgan co. Armagh N.Ireland @9:30 AM do what you will with that.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Irish Rover
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:21 PM

Sorry, I hit the send button too soon. Ive been playing music since I was 7 I sing, play 12-string guitar, 5-string banjo, plectrum banjo, bodrahn(in public) and all woodwind ints.in the orchestra. My forte is Irish/scots folk. I speak five languages, have two Masters in Psyc. spent twentyfour years in U.S. military.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Shanti
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:49 PM

Hey Irish Rover,

I'm an April '47 person myself. Sounds as if you're way more musically accomplished than I, but I LOVE Irish and Scots music, and sing it rather well. Why did you want two Masters degrees in Psych? And with all of your musical talent, why the military? I know, I'm being nosy...so I'll understand if you don't want to answer.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 06:46 PM

Sheesh, a preponderance of Aries already! My sisters, who are twins, were also born April/'47!


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 01:08 AM

Bill D, I support you in your scepticism. However I'm not an open-minded sceptic, but a locked-minded beast of the worst class in reference to astrology, UFOlogy, and misterious energies, so I'm not sure wether I can be of any help to you ! :))

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 01:56 AM

This IS fun! Didn't realize I'd raise so much comment.

I will tell you my first success story as an amateur astrologer. When I was 19 (5 years into my studies of astrology) I was having this sceptic discussion with a fellow student, whom I had known for some years, and who considered himself a scientist (he was also a musician and later left the sciences and went into threater, but that's another story...) So I said," get birth data for someone you know that I don't know. He decided to pick his current love interest. We set up a time and I read her chart. I described her physical characteristics-- weight, height, hair color, eye color and something of her general shape and bone structure, etc. Then I went on to tell him about her character. He never argued with me about astrology again. Of course I was young and foolish and into taking dares.I don't do that stuff any more. But if you ever meet a guy named Jeff Green, born in Athens Ohio on May 2 1954, ask him about it. And tell him to look me up. It's been too many years...

By the way, if you haven't lost interest: Irish Rover, thank you for the stats, and you can always post this stuff to my personal page if you don't want it public. Irish/Scottish music is my great love too. But I'm very basic on the instruments(harp, guitar and in the past mandolin and bouzouki)-- I mostly sing... all the time...When I'm not talking.

Kat I'm waiting to hear from you...

Bill D I've actually made a study of a number of "divination" systems, and have read the Tarot for almost as long as I've done astrology. I even teach other people how. But astrology is much easier to do stat analysis with, and it is more than a predictive system, it can be used for self exploration. In fact the best astrologers out there are often psychologists and counselors who have found they can use it for insight with their clients. When I see someone in my practice who is going through a major Pluto transit, I know that he/she is going through big transitions/transformations. And I can often help with it-- to get over the rough places and figure out what the experience might mean.

As far as Bisba goes: well, maybe there's something to it, but if it works for women then it also works for men (the shape and size of...?); but I think there might be ethical issues for practitioners of THAT system...

and UFOs- well, I'm essentially a practical person. I like astrology and Tarot because these things have taught me a lot about myself and how to get on with others in the world, and I can help people with them, but also they have saved me time, headaches and pointless struggle. I'm a busy person and anything that helps me take care of the mundane stuff more effortlessly is all to the good. I don't discount the possibility of various phenomena but I really don't have time for it. What interests me are people. Astrology is mostly a people thing.

Well, that's more than enough. Isn't there a button on these things that farts when you've talked too much?


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Sourdough
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 02:41 AM

I remember seeing Randi, the magician, on PBS once. He gave every one in a college classroom a copy of their horoscope he had worked out. As you would expect, a number of people in the class thought of themselves as skeptics but when they read their horoscopes, they were really impressed with the specificity of their readings. They thought that Randi had nailed their personalities in his reading. Then Randi asked each person to pass their reading on to the classmate next to them. You guessed it. The readings were all identical. Every person in the class had read the exact same piece of paper.

Randi's point was that it is possible to write in a way that is ambiguous enough for people to fill in with what they want to hear, whether it is good or bad that they expect. It was a very striking piece of television.

Other students of human nature have noticed how hard wired we seem to be looking for patterns. I think that may be a part of it, too.

I made a proposal to NOVA a while back to do a study of such things as the birth dates of members of Congress. There are enough similarities in what you have to do to be elected, be a leader, raise money, etc. I thought it would be interesting to see what we came up with. There is a guy who is now on ABC television as their science reporter, Michael Guillen, who has written a lot on how we fool ourselves by innaccurate observation. IHe had been a leader of a skeptic's group of highly trained scientists who were investigating paranormal claims. I think deep down they wanted to be convinced that there were special forces at work but they have never found anything that stands up to their knowledge of statistics, physics, bilogy, linguistics, etc. I wanted to work with him and his group and he was willing. I thought it would have been interesting bit of television but Paula Apsell, the Exec. Producer of Nova apparently didn't. Ah, well.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 02:23 PM

Not to belabor the point, but when I see a client they are either in crisis or not in crisis.

Can't tell you how many people (at least 2 dozen) that I've seen in the last two years with Pluto stressfully transiting their Suns-- every one was having a major crisis as described by that combination. Sun can equal the father (in the case of women also their male partner), other male authority figures, but also the Self, particularly as it relates to creativity, but also in terms of physical strength and well-being. Pluto equals issues of power/powerlessness, depression, loss (of someone or something in their lives but also of control over some aspect of their lives-- ie powerlessness), abandonment, grief and death but also rebirth, sexuality, healing. These clients were experiencing typical stuff for this combination: death of the father, power struggles with male bosses, suicidal feelings, health issues that they had no control over (usually in this case the 6th house which signifies physical health was involved), relationship issues (mostly women clients whose husbands were experiencing the Pluto stuff-- loss, death etc-- for them). Likewise a few (myself included) chose to do something empowering and freeing with their lives and experienced the good part of these challenging transits-- owning themselves in a new way, having a rebirth of the self. I decided to follow a lifelong dream and become a massage therapist (Pluto also is one of the signatures of healing). One is never at the mercy of these things-- you can always choose how you react to the death of a parent, a psycho boss, or a spouse who cheats on you, or your own internal struggles. The chart is just a signpost to help you be more self aware, and to get the best out of your life.

And sure there are human sheep out there who will believe anything. If you want to benefit from this stuff you have to be willing to take a good hard look at who you really are.

And if you are going to benefit from astrology, you need to do the same as you would with a doctor or psychologist. Invest some time and energy in finding someone who knows what he/she is doing and cares about you. Most reputable astrologers I know of are not doing it for the money. I do not encourage my clients to come to me on a repeat basis. Once every two or three years is more than adequate, and then only if there's really big stuff going on for them. I am not sorry if I don't ever see a client again, because that means he/she got what was needed. I don't want my clients to depend on me--- the whole point is for it to make you stronger, more in touch with your power to be who you are. Sorry if this sounds like preaching--- I am passionate about my desire to help others.

And I'm not blind to the ways in which the metaphysical/mystical has been used unethically or stupidly. But if your doctor misdiagnoses you or prescribes back surgery when you don't need it, you don't say, "Gee allopathic medicine doesn't work." No, you sue him/her and find another doctor! Or better yet, you find a really good massage therapist who can actually fix the problem, not treat the symptom!

End of lecture...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 02:26 PM

PS I'm seeing clients and at a workshop in Chicago this weekend (leaving soon) so if you try to contact me here or with a PM I won't get it till next Wed.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 02:46 PM

...so..every baby born in Mercy Hospital in Denver, Colorado on May 20, 1939 (especially if they were born near 5:34AM)is disposed to react to life the same way I am? *sigh*..perhaps best we discuss Scottish songs...I love them too.

when I read... "if you are going to benefit from astrology, you need to do the same as you would with a doctor or psychologist. Invest some time and energy in finding someone who knows what he/she is doing and cares about you."...I want to pound the table and shout!...*IF* you expect to 'benefit' from this, then you are already predisposed to it...people hate wasting their time, and they FIND answers that satisfy, as noted in the "Amazing Randi" story above.

I have no doubt you care and are sincere, but gaining insight from the relative positions of astronomical phenomena requires 'faith'...there *IS NO PROOF*...

One of the most enlightening reads of my life was Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer"...an analysis of the 'will to believe' in many people...Kierkegaard emphasized that this is how we MUST do religion...you do not 'prove' God...you make the 'leap of faith'...and thereby gain something that pedantic 'truth seekers' can't get...

Ah, well...as you can see, I am a hard case....off to do some music....


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 03:05 PM

Can you tell me why in the hell my life is falling apart?


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 03:09 PM

BillD,
I was with you on this until recently reading some explanation of "string theory" which purports that all matter is made of vibrating strings - every atom, every ion is vibrating and reacting to the vibrations of other matter. Anyone is free to jump in here to elaborate, correct, whatever. If this is true, then it follows that the vibrations of planets, stars, etc.,would have an impact on us from the time of conception. Of course, the distance and position of the planets in relation to each other would figure into the equation. Wonder if the position of the doctor and nurses in the delivery room plays into this - must. And the sexual position at the moment of conception??? New Theory - if you want to produce a "folkie" use the missionery postion.Bearheart - sorry for the vagaries.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Peg
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 03:11 PM

wow...cool thread. I am an amateur astrologer meself and would love to get in on this; will PM you the info later on...

peg

Libra/Scorpio solar cusp (October 23, 1963, 1:06 pm EST), Capricorn rising, Capricorn Moon, Neptune/Venus conjunction in Scorpio...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Irish Rover
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 04:47 PM

Shanti, not to put to fine a point on it I WAS DRAFTED! when it came time to get out they said no! the constitution says 8 yrs mil service. they held me for the full 8 but let me study. part of my job in the mil. was as a profiler, so I studied abnormal psyc.( which is why I love this site) then I had enough credits to also get my masters in sex and family counciling so I took it. cause I only look stupid. got them from berkely should have seen me in class with my high tight hair, it started several fights, they wanted to fight me because of my hair but not to serve their country. also I come from N.Ireland, became a citizen of this great free country and was pleased and proud to serve as I was needed to EARN my freedom and rights. and if you don't think your free here I'll be happy to relate about 1000 stories of other countrys I been in, including N.I. so to make a loooooooooong story short dats why. I hope this dose not sound too pissy, I don't mean it that way.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 05:09 PM

I hate to rain on your parade Mbo but life is always falling apart for everyone. At least it is for me too. I think there is an entropy that only affects our lives.

Sinsull, I have a friend who would gladly explain string theory but can't without using higher mathematics. He has tried to explain it to me but it makes my head hurt and I take pride in being one who tries to follow the developments in the various scientific fields.

As physics gets closer to the basic underpinning of the universe it seems to approach the pseudosciences in aspect. The difference, of course, is that the scientists are continuing to question their theories and design experiments to prove or disprove them.

Pseudoscience doesn't. In pseudoscience the explanation is accepted as fact without question or proof.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 05:59 PM

Well, I'm about as big a skeptic as anyone, but I'm not going to get defensive about it, nor berate others for believing. There are a lot worse things to believe.

Irish Rover, I also spent 24 years in the military as a Public Health Technician.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,Astro fan
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 06:19 PM


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Fortunato
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 06:47 PM

Hello Bearheart, I was born on 2/27/46 at 3am in Washington, DC. Styles of music played (chronologically): Country;Folk Revival;Blues;Old Time;Swing;Roots Rock;Early country. Instrument played: Guitar Song writer: Yes. Professional: Yes, but only for fun most years. Long-time musician: Yes Prefer to play in a group: slight preference Motivation for playing music: self-actualization

I'm interested in what you have to say. I'm skeptical, but then this year the Republicans are the party of inclusion (Are you dancing Bo'Jangles?) so I guess anything is possible. Regards and best wishes, Fortunato


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Crowhugger
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 07:11 PM

Mbo,

Yes: because it isn't holding together as it is now. Have you tried changing one or more things, for the better of course?

Fellow-skeptics,

As an open-minded skeptic myself, I wonder if blood pressure existed before someone figured out how to measure it. I'm starting to think that we each enter the doors with which we're familiar when we need to find understand something.

CH.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 07:14 PM

Like dropping classes, maybe? ;-(


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:05 AM

This is getting better and better! Thanks everybody for participating, wherever you are coming from. And thanks to the folks that continue to give me data to work with. Just to set the record straight, being born on the same day at the exact same time as another person doesn't mean you will be exactly the same-- didn't I say once already we all have free will???? But it is true that in the case of astrological twins (the technical term among astrologers) it is amazing how often they get married (to different people of course), have babies and do other significant similar things (in one case buying red cars) at the same time (no not to the minute). But astro twins are really pretty rare.

Bill D would like to have a conversation with you sometime that was not limited to the forum... it's a bit limiting /frustrating to discuss such complex subjects this way.

For those who are interested in the Science/"Pseudo"science debate there are some interesting articles available by more articulate astrologers than I. Some are physicists working in the field. Let me know if you want the resources...

I'm off to Chicago for real now...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Brendy
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:13 AM

It is amazing, and I'm sure way above the national average, how many 'double Aquarians' live in and around The Burren in County Clare, in Ireland.

B.
(Just one of many)


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:17 AM

Oh I forgot,

Peg I need your birth place. Yes please a PM is very good...

Bill D thanks for the stats.

Fortunato, that's EXACTLY what I need. Thank you so much!!!!

All of you who gave me data (or are thinking about it) it's actually easier for me to print out and keep a record of it with the birthchart if you PM me...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:22 AM

Sourdough, you took the words right out of my mouth. Unfortunately, as Randi found in his experiement with the students, even when he explained cold reading and pattern seeking, they didn't want to understand. This is unfortunately part of the lack of general understanding of statistics, probablility, and gullability, as well as ignorance of the true history of astrology. Check it out: Astrology Fact Sheet Andrés, I knew we could see eye to eye!


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Escamillo
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:36 AM

"This is getting better and better! " - Well, I'm beginning to feel a little.. (how could I say?) .. uncomfortable. I respect all the different classes of beleifs, faith and mysticism as far as they are not commercialized or presented as an alternative to science. You may see or not what I'm seeing, but this time I´ll be out of the discussion, to which my poor knowledge can't contribute very much.

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bagpuss
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 05:58 AM

I'm a sceptic. But being a sceptic means having an open mind. I believe most of astrology is to do with people wanting to believe in it. Some recent research suggested that because astrology is so well known, people actually become more like their star sign, or emphasise those parts of their character that are in keeping with there star sign. Also, I forget the reference, but some guy was trying to disprove astrology, and when he got the results back, they came out in favour of astrology! I think it was to do with time of year you were born, and occupation.

Another thing I can't seem to bring myself to believe in, but seems to work really well is Kabalarian name analysis. I went to the website and checked my name, and it came out so much like me that it was scary. I thought it was just a spooky coincidence, so I decided to do a blind test to find out. I took the name of a colleague and 9 of her relatives and put the names through the website. I then deleted the names from them and gave them to her and asked her to match them up to herself and her relatives. She got 8 out of 10 correct. Also I did my bosses name, and it was hilariously correct!

If anyone else wants to try this out the site is

www.kabalarians.com

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:40 AM

Mbo,

Please check your PM.

Bearheart


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:42 AM

Sorry, Bagpuss, I just tried it, with a very open mind, and it was pretty off base on two or three that I tried, including mine.

To me, atrology, the tarot, ec. are tools. As Bearheart said, we all have free will. I beleve we can use them as tools for indications and helpful guidance....remember all things in moderation makes for good balance.

My brother, who is a classical composer, teaches classes on sacred geometry and music, specifically about the *giant string* and the tones of the planets. When I get more time, later today, I will post some of what he has written.

Some may choose to call it psuedo-science. Others call it new science and, in fact, have an annual International Forum for New Sceince in Ft. Collins, CO, at which my brother was a guest speaker one year.

BTW, Bearheart, one of the things he does when he gives classes is to compose a tune for each person, based on their birthdate and the tones of the planets involved.

Now, before any more sceptics weigh in, please be respectful of others beliefs, whether you believe there is any scientific merit or not. Thank you.

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:20 AM

Aw, Kat, beliefs are all unproven anyway. No one's is more right than anyone else's, and they're all right for the believer. I wouldn't call a thing "science" unless there were proof, since that's what makes science science. Even then, some of the things that have been proven have turned out to be wrong. (Hey, this is almost the same as arguing about what is "folk" music! AAARRGH!!!)

There are some things that may find roots in science, but I don't think astrology is one of them. For one thing, the constellations are in different relative positions now than when astrology first began. My memory from astronomy class on this is vague, though.

I'm having one heck of a time figuring out that guy on SciFi channel - John somebody in a series called "Crossing Over." Has anyone seen this show?

I tried the name site Bagpuss posted, and about half of the comments were dead on. Half were dead off. Said I'd do well in sales - tried and hated it - and I had an intense nature. Haha! Also said I could be irritable. (Who, me?) What human does that not apply to?

Jeri, an open-minded (I hope) skeptic.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,Tommi
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:43 AM

It just doesn't make sense to me that astrological charts are figured from time of birth and not time of conception.

The alignment of the planets, stars, black holes, etc., should have an effect from birth. Just because one is "inside" the mother, shouldn't matter one whit. After all, people are inside many things that should have more of a shielding effect than layers of skin and muscle.

Don't Eastern astrologers figure the charts from time of conception? Makes much more sense.

Skeptic (hardly sceptic, but maybe septic)?? You bet!

People, who need to feel an outside force is in charge, tend to believe anything that keeps them from accepting responsibility for their own lives: the devil made me do it, it was in the stars, it is genetic, and so on and on.

That old crone
Waved a chicken bone
I don't know why,
But I'll whine til I die.

I went through a period, as a small child, of ardently believing in predestination. My mother said I fell in the creek and came out a hard-shell Baptist. Well, to quote a song done by Win Strake on an album of humorous religious songs: A hard shell is better than no shell a'tall.

No longer believe in predestination, preordination or any of the other pre-done-its, but I kept the hard shell.

Prove it, please. Cold, hard facts.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Turtle
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:49 AM

Here's my take, for what it's worth: astrology is a tool. It doesn't require either belief, or proof. I don't know whether or not I "believe in" astrology. The question for me is, is it helpful? Does it help me understand myself better or get through difficult times or work better with other people? Is the tool useful to me in a given situation? Not all tools are helpful for all people in all situations. You can use an axe or a crosscut or a chainsaw to cut down a tree. If you choose a chainsaw, you don't say you don't believe in the axe. You say it doesn't work for you.

Another way to think about astrology (and tarot) is as a series of metaphors. You don't have to take it as literal truth for it to be useful. Maybe a tarot reading isn't predictive at all; maybe you read into it what you already really know at some level. Nonetheless it can clarify your understanding through image, metaphor and story, just as fairy tales (or folk songs!) do, for example. Metaphor isn't helpful to everyone, either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Turtle


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:53 AM

Excellent way of putting it, Turtle! Thanks!


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Sourdough
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:24 PM

All right, let's say that there IS a relationship between date of birth and occupation. Let's, for the sake of argument, say that there seems to be a statistically significantly difference in the scattering of occupations, with clusters in certain signs. Now, what does that mean? Would that be proof of the power of the stars to influence human destiny?

I'll bet there are people following this thread who might be able to come up with alternative explanations. Synchronicity in itself does not prove causation, right?

I had the terrific opportunity to have this demonstrated to me by perhaps the most qualified person in the world to do so, a psychologist named BF Skinner. He had developed cages inevitably called "Skinner boxes" in which he placed pigeons. The thing that made the boxes special was that they had little machines in them, feeders controlled by pressure bars. It didn't take long before the pigeons figured out, "Press the bar, get food in the chute". Very quickly, the birds learned to hit the bar with their beaks and then, without waiting, to go over to the dish and get the food that had just dropped. They would go back and forth, Press, Eat, Press, Eat. THey would do this as long as they were hungry.

Then Dr. Skinner changed the rule. It took three times to hit the bar before the food came out. For a while, the birds pressed the lever and looked for food. When nothing happened they tried again, and then again. Having gotten the reward, they were willing to try again but were still puzzled for a while. However, they figured the pattern out and once again they got it down to a system. This time it was, Press, Press, Press, Eat. They would do this without stopping, fully confident that after three presses, the food would be in the dish.

Now here is where it gets interesting. He set the payback on Random. No longer was there a pattern. So what did the birds do? They tried to impose a pattern based on their individual observations. For instance, a bird that hit the lever a couple of times with nothing happening might pause and having nothing better to do at the moment, scratch the side of its head with its left foot. By chance, the next time it pressed the bar, food came down. The bird was encouraged to think that the combination of pressing the bar and scratching its head was "the key". Of course, it didn't work the next time, but something else might give the illusion of providing the answer, perhaps turning around in place. What you ended up with was a cage full of pigeons going through all sorts of rituals they had made up in the hope that they had gained control of an important and essential (but random) activity in their lives.

Skinner feels, or felt, rather, that he could see similar things going on in our own species. For instance, he thought that gamblers reacted this way. That is why there are all of the rituals related to gambling. I think some of you may think of other applications where you see this same dynamic at work. Anyway, I have always remembered that afternoon with Dr. Skinner and the lesson I learned. It seemed appropriate to share it here.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: dwditty
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:10 PM

10 of Clubs....only kidding.
>br> dw


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,davewilkes
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 01:23 AM

Astrology is bunk. My main question to a so-called "Professional Astrologer" is, "Are you self-deluded or a fraud?"

Every time astrology is subjected to scientific investigation it is unable to predict or corelate anything. See the Skeptical Inquirer for one source of clear thinking about the fraud called astrology.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: hesperis
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 01:27 AM

I would love to participate here, but I haven't the particulars of my time of birth.

I'm a Sagittarius, Capricorn AS (somewhere between 26 and 29 deg, I think), Venus in Scorpio in either 9th or 10th house, Saturn in Virgo in 7th or 8th house, Jupiter in Leo in the 7th, Moon in Aries in 3rd or 4th house, Stellium of Mercury, Sun, Neptune, in the 11th house and possibly Mars in that too, unless it's in the 12th...
That's all I know.

Will that be enough?

~*hesperis*~


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:31 AM

Turtle, your point that you believe without proof is exactly what skeptics and writers on this subject have been saying, such as the recent book by Michael Schermer, "Why People Believe".

People find comfort in believing they have understanding and control of something that is actually a mystery, beyond human understanding. Even if the belief is proven to be false, they continue to want to believe, as Sourdough pointed out, because it gives many a sense of comfort.

On the other hand, there are those, like the true mystics and skeptics, who realize that reality is beyond words, beyond human concepts, and at some point we have to say "we do not know, it is a mystery".

I used to believe in astrology so much that I thought I could do people's past life readings, channeling spirit guides, and because I am good at dissociation and have a great imagination, I could write great stories that people could relate to. They paid me $30 a pop to give them channeled past life readings from their natal astrology chart.... SO, I've been on both sides of the fence on this issue, and believe me, I had a wake up call that made me research this and other new age topics very seriously, and I can now say, "The symbols of astrology, tarot, or any other method of fortune telling or casting a personality chart have nothing to do with who we are."

Our human minds are wired to project symbols and patterns on everything we see, just like pictures in the clouds or driftwood looking like recognizable shapes.

I am happy to now find mystery where I used to project metaphorical answers, and my view of reality is much more profound and awesome than when I thought I could define my own and other's lives by astrology.

When I believed things just because they gave me comfort, like astrology, I limited my understanding of the world, myself, and others, to a system that categorizes and labels us all in boxes and groups, not really the way individual humans are. We are all much more unique, our lives, personalities, are much more random and unpredictable than astrology defines.

I am very glad I no longer view myself or others through the lense of astrology symbols. It is a great disservice to ourselves and others to limit our view of who we are based on such a label. But, thinking we have a pat definition gives some people comfort. To me, it is stifling of our own uniqueness. My mother taught me not to conform without questioning. I'm glad I woke up and questioned why I believed.

Here is an interesting article called THE BELIEF ENGINE.
click here

quote in part...
"This system [our brain] is as capable of generating fallacious beliefs as it is of generating beliefs that are in line with truth. These beliefs guide future actions and, whether correct or erroneous, they may prove functional for the individual who holds them. "

By the way, the wake-up call for me was to be engaged to a man who was in a new age church that used astrology in its beliefs. When his three year old daughter was raped by her stepfather, it was covered up by the group (which I now know is a cult) and the victim was blamed for it being in her karma and astrology to have to be raped, owing the rapist a karmic debt. How crazy can it get... I then and there began re-examining everything I had started to believe that could be used to project explanations or rationalizations, including astrology. I did not belong to this group that he did, and I was one of the only people trying to get the county attorney to take the molestor to trial. The cult had alot of power, paying big taxes to the county on their real estate. The man got off with being told to get some counseling.
affadavit

Now maybe you understand why I question WHY people believe what they do, because it does not always bode well for them or their children, when the beliefs are not based on fact.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 02:07 PM

Alice, I understand how that must have been a terrible experience and how it would make you very wary of these types of things. I am sorry you had to experience that and do not, in anyway, agree with what happened. Clearly that was a misuse of astrology, the teachings of reincarnation and karma, as well.

However NOT all new age/new thought/metaphysical orgs. are cults, nor do they guide their lives slavishly by astrology or what-have-you. Many, such as Unity School of Christianity, which has bene around for over 100 years, interpret the Bible metaphysically/symbolically and live their lives as any other loving Christian might do.

Alice, you said, "like the true mystics and skeptics, who realize that reality is beyond words, beyond human concepts, and at some point we have to say "we do not know, it is a mystery".

I agree with you on that. True mystics however will not shun tools which have been shown to give some insight into those mysteries.

The Native American belief is that each person travels around their zodiacal charts, becoming first their birth sign, then progressing around the circle of signs.

Whether anyone believes in it or not, I do not think it is right for people to make blanket statements nor to make assumptions about how any of us who have stated our belief in astrology choose to apply it OR NOT, in our lives.

Hard scientists will never believe anything we try to prove, as they are predisposed to not be open-minded. (*running for cover*) That is no worse a derisive accusation aimed at someone believing in the cards or anything else just because they want to.

If one were really interested, they could get into some of the more esoteric teachings which include scientific experiments to prove such cosmic laws to the student and then see what they think of astrology as a tool.

Working for balance,

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Naemanson
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 02:50 PM

Now it gets even more interesting.

Kat - I don't think Alice was making a blanket statement. She was relating what happened to make her question her own deeply held beliefs. I read her post to be specific to the cult's use of astrology not as a general statement about astrologists.

After all we all have friends who are firmly entrenched in the other camp and not all of them rape babies! At least none of my friends do and I have some friends who are very deeply into mysticism and pseudoscience.

And then, Kat, you got into your own blanket statement about scientists. "Hard scientists will never believe anything we try to prove, as they are predisposed to not be open-minded." As has been mentioned in earlier posts, a good scientist would love to have your claims proved. But the scientific process requires that the results of an experiment be repeatable under strict scientifc conditions and that is where the proofs fail.

That is why the Skeptical Enquirer works so hard at what it does. Its mandate isn't to disprove the supernatural and psychic phenomena. They want to prove all of it. Nobody has been able to so far.

I would love to believe in UFO's and telepathy and telekinesis and all that stuff. I only ask that the proof stand up to strict scientific (laboratory) conditions.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 03:04 PM

Sorry, I didn not mean Alice, specifically, except those places where I addressed her.

Naemanson, that is my point: there are things that will always remain a msytery...some of us choose to believe what we feel, believe, or see, and maybe try to delve into those mysteries...others don't.

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 05:08 PM

To bring this thread around to something musical, here is a song by Joni Mitchell, provided here for non-commercial, educational purposes.

ROSES BLUE
© 1968 & 1974 Siquomb Publishing Corp.
By Joni Mitchell

I think of tears, I think of rain on shingles;
I think of rain, I think of roses blue.
I think of Rose, My heart begins to tremble,
To see the place she's lately gotten to,
Gotten to.

She's gotten to mysterious devotions,
She's gotten to the zodiac and zen,
She's gotten into tarot cards and potions,
She's laying her religion on her friends,
On her friends.

Friends who come to ask her for their future,
Friends who come to find they can't be friends,
Because of signs and seasons that don't suit her,
She'll prophesy your death, she won't say when,
Won't say when.

When all the black cards come you cannot barter,
When all your stars are stacked you cannot win,
She'll shake her head and treat you like a martyr,
It is her blackest spell she puts you in,
Puts you in.

In sorrow she can lure you where she wants you,
Inside your own self pity there you swim,
In sinking down to drown her voice still haunts you,
And only with your laughter can you win,
Can you win.

You think of tears, I think of rain on shingles,
I think of rain, I think of Roses blue,
I think of Rose, my heart begins to tremble,
To see the place she's lately gotten to,
Gotten to.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 05:21 PM

I think you're smart, you sweet thing
Tell me your sign?
Ooo woo got you where I want you
Yeah...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:12 PM

Okay, let's see how open-minded some skeptics might be. Please CLICK HERE for an excellent scientific article on The Value of Astrology by Arthur M. Young, inventor of the Bell Helicopter and well-known scientist, philosopher, cosmologist and a few other things. It looks as though he has some very interesting other articles available, too, some in audio format.

Keeping it musical....

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius!
Aquarius!
.....

**BG**


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:27 PM

ummmm...In one short article, Arthur M. Young violates several of the basic rules of logic..logical fallacies ...many bright, creative people fall into these traps quite honestly, and it is not easy to show WHY their careful analysis is faulty. It also does not prove them wrong...only that they employed fallacious reasoning...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:31 PM

Well this sure is one bizarre discussion!


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:38 PM

Bet they thought it was fallacious reasoning to declare one would not sail off the edge of the earth, too! *bg*


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 09:20 PM

nope...flat earth theory in not really relevant to logical fallacy....IF the earth were flat, THEN one would indeed sail off it..they reasoned correctly, up to a point,,,they just had bad information and started with incorrect premises...(no one had figured yet out what it meant when a tall sail disappeared as the ship sailed away)...Copernicus had some excellent reasoning, he just had bad info about the relation of the sun to the earth...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Escamillo
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 09:36 PM

Sorry, Kat, Mr. Young is neither an academic or scientist at all, all that he does is put together a lot of obvious facts about physics, life and astronomy, and deducts that the Seventh-Year Itch is a consequence of the rotational period of a planet, of course, without any explanation. The value of his misguiding theories is absolutely null, though he seems to be a well-intentioned person.

I prefer he would say: Yes, astrology is a myth, but I like it. (Oh, Geez, I promised to not take part in the discussion - shut up, Esca!)

Un abrazo - Andrés (not a skeptic - a friendly enemy) ;)


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:00 PM

I am amused that this discussion is taking place in two different threads and each one is unique!

Kat, you said "...some of us choose to believe what we feel, believe, or see, and maybe try to delve into those mysteries...others don't."

Yes. But you have to remember that our senses are subjective. What we see is not necessarily what we get but what we want to get. A person can see a light in the sky and his brain, preconditioned to look for alien spacecraft, will see a ship. An astrological chart can appear to be right on track and the wonderful human brain will make it come out right. It's just the way we are built.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:38 PM

Brett, it's called "The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy".


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:28 PM

I had that book title wrong in my earlier message. It is not Why People Believe, but How We Believe by Michael Shermer.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: celticblues5
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:07 PM

Alice -

I think Joni's thought there ("Roses Blue") was simply that ANY slavish devotion to a belief system which is exclusionary is not good - one could just as easily apply the concept to fundamentalist Christian or Muslim beliefs.

as in the Austin Lounge Lizards'"Jesus Loves Me But He Can't Stand You" -
(approximate lyrics)

"We're bringin' our kids up in a righteous way,
So don't you be bringin' your kids over to our house to play
Why, your kids'll grow up stoned, left-leaning, and gay
Jesus told me on the phone today"


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:12 PM

can you post all the lyrics, celticblues5? This goes along with my page of parodies of songs on the cult topic, and others in the DT such as "Ma Sheela".


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Lena
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:28 AM

Born the 15th of sptember 1979 in Florence,central Italy,at 5.15 in the morning.Please don't laugh when you'll find out all my planets are in virgo.I play clarinet and I'm not a professional.Is that all you needed?!


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: celticblues5
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:11 PM

Alice - look for me to post the lyrics in a separate thread later today. I've been wanting to ask if anyone has the chords for it anyway.

I should have said in my previous note that, it seems to me that Joni is not only commenting on the exclusionary aspect, but that one should not be slavishly devoted to a system that lays things down in black & white, with no way out - that fate is not insurmountable (ie - that your cards have been dealt & if you're, say, a double Aries, this is how things will be and there's nothing you can do about it). I don't know anyone who follows astrology who adheres slavishly to this idea - they all use it as a tool & a guide, but certainly don't claim that there is no free will.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Turtle
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:45 PM

Hi everyone. Back from the weekend, entering the fray . . .

Alice, I hear what you say about your experience and I respect it. It sounds horrible. I too have witnessed that kind of unthinking adherence to a belief system that is damaging. Any belief system will do if denial is really the goal. Just think of all those kids abused by Catholic priests, and the parents who couldn't imagine that such a thing could be happening because it would mean questioning their faith in the church. It sounds as though you acted courageously to re-examine your own beliefs and experience, and to try to protect a child. That is praiseworthy.

However, I think you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say that I believed without proof. I said that the issue of belief was irrelevant from my perspective, and that I don't know whether I "believe" or not. To me "do I believe in astrology?" is the wrong question. I don't think I could answer it, or I would answer it differently at different times.Yes, no, maybe, I don't know.

For me the question is, rather: is this system of image and metaphor helpful to me? Leaving aside the question of belief and proof. And, in fact, it is. That doesn't mean that it is to everyone. And it's not really open to argument. It's about experience, not about belief.

Perhaps I experience astrology differently from you. I don't experience it as a way of categorizing people and putting them in little boxes. I don't feel "summed up" by astrology. I don't find it particularly comforting. It's not a way of controlling people or thinking I know what they're all about, or reducing my view of them to a set of static symbols.

For me, tarot and astrology are like a window or a peephole onto the mystery you talked about. They show me how much I can never know. They are a way of playing with images, metaphor, and pattern, like writing, like music, like a kid sitting down with a set of brightly colored pattern blocks and making something pretty. They are also sometimes a spiritual practice for me (tarot more than astrology) in a meditative sense. They are helpful to me because I am a metaphorical thinker, and I often understand things more clearly through the use of metaphor and image than I do through the use of logic. (Of course, I'm a Pisces! *BG* Joke, joke.)

Of course astrology doesn't meet logical tests. It's not a system based on logic. It's a system based on metaphor. Logic systems don't meet metaphorical tests either (does it make a good story? does it connect you to the natural world? does it expand your view of the universe? does it give you a deeper stock of lovingkindness for others?). It's like that old standby, comparing apples and oranges. Logic isn't invalidated because it doesn't meet metaphorical tests--that isn't what it's for. The reverse is also true. Metaphorical systems serve a different purpose than logical systems. Not better or worse or higher or lower, just different. Either kind of system can be used in the service of denial and delusion; either can also be used in the service of clarity and understanding. Either can do damage.

Of course the human brain is wired to make patterns. That's what learning is all about. That doesn't mean that all the patterns are invalid. Logic is a pattern created by the human mind, for example. Skinner knew he had set up a random food-delivery system for his cages full of pigeons. None of us know that about the universe; none of us is in control of the parameters of the experiment. Logic and metaphor are just two of the patterns we have created to try to make sense of our experience, and neither is infallible.

Well, obviously I could go on and on about this (and I have!). Maybe this will be the post that kills the thread!

Turtle


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:47 PM

How are we supposed to know offhand, what exact time we were born?


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 01:13 PM

I used to be a Cancer but didn't like the medical implications. Also, I was certain my personal orientation was different. So I had a sign change operation. I also went to Sears for a "cut-rate" vasectomy. Now when I get excited, my garage door goes up. And my birthday is in the middle of winter instead of the dog days of Summer/July.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Hoolet
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 05:15 PM

Enthusiastic amateur singer 24/11/55 11.20am SW Scotland maybe you can tell me which songs to learn


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 05:29 PM

HEy Lena, your birthday is the day after mine - regretably I have a few years on you. I've always prefered the chinese horoscope - I'm a dragon, every characteristic fits, every job so far has been correct, even down to the ailments....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 05:31 PM

In the Chinese zodiac, I'm a horse. A stallion, if you will. ;-{


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: celticblues5
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 01:29 AM

And, of course, the THIRD thing with "Roses Blue" (one of these days I'll remember to post everything in one tidy note - yeah, sure) is that it is a comment on jumping on the current spiritual bandwagon. At the time this was written, Eastern religions, the occult, etc. were undergoing a re-emergence in the West. Some people just do things to be cool. She puts on the trappings to be exotic, but of course she won't say when your death will occur because she CAN'T because they are, after all, ONLY trappings. (Not that I necessarily think that no one can - there *are* more things in Heaven & Earth, Horatio...)

Around the same time this came out, I met a Catholic priest who had worked for a number of years in India. He said kids over there were rebelling by becoming Christians - ! :-)


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 11:18 AM

Turtle, you didn't get my point, but it would be a waste of time to repeat myself.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,John D.
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 01:18 PM

FARRRRR OUT!


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Turtle
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:11 PM

Sorry you feel that way, Alice. Maybe we understand each other just fine, but we disagree.

Anyway, I'll look forward to seeing you again on another (more musical? more harmonious?) thread.

Turtle


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Diva
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 04:34 PM

In Chinese Astrology I am a Tiger....I rather like that. I'm a Taurean and some of it is accurate.....especially the stubborn bit.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:17 PM

Home from Chicago...

A lot's been happening here.

In general it's easier for me if you can PM me your data. I like to run a copy of both the astro info and the musical info to file with the chart, so that I can refer back to it.

Lena, Thanks for the data. I'd like more info on the musical side of things (type of music you like, etc.) See earlier entries in the thread for ideas...

Mbo, Time of birth can often be obtained from your birth certificate. Also sometimes family records-- a baby book,etc-- or other family members have a record of it, such as a favorite aunt. And often if all else fails the Division/Department of Vital Statistics of your birth state, or even the hospital where you were born, will have a record of it. Sometimes on microfilm. You can contact the vital statistics people often through websites for doing the geneology thing. Many of those sites have links to the Divisions of Vital Stats so you can search out family history yourself.

hesperis, We might be able to figure this out. But I refer you to the above-- worth checking the birth certificate, or searching for a birth chart (I'm guessing you had one at one time if you know all that about yours.) Still I need your stats-- birth place, birth date , birth time-- to do an accurate chart.

Hoolet, can you give me the nearest city or even an approximate on coordinates. SW Scotland is a little too general. I need latitude and longitude. So you're a singer? What else do you do musically? (Scottish songs/ballads are a very strong interest of mine.)

Tommi, It's true that Hindu astrology is very taken up with conception charts. And there is a branch of western astrology that is concerned with it. The general thought is that the two types give a slightly different slant on the person and his/her life. Because I am not interested in that type of astrology I don't work with it. The idea among some western astrologers is that the moment we take our first breath is the moment that we fully enter into this world and become part of it-- not that womb life isn't life, but that it is so inextricably bound up with the life of our mother that survival is dependent on her. When we are born we can (theoretically) survive without her and so we become individuals in out own right. This also reflect philosophically in the very strong feminine/Goddess aspects of Hindu religion, as different from our more masculine Judeo-Christian/scientific heritage, which emphasizes the individual and a more masculine/intellectual approach.

kat, let's talk more about this music stuff your brother does, and other things. You can PM me or my email is healing@frognet.net.

Brendy-- If you know all that are you interested submitting stats? I'd sure appreciate it.

Andres-- "this is getting better and better":I meant, I love it when people share ideas. I nevere expected this thread would stir up so much dialog. I thought some would be into it and some would be indifferent. I didn't expect it to push so many buttons. But how can we grow if we don't share our thoughts/experience, and then think about what we share, and then share some more? I do feel sad when other people have had bad experiences with some thing that has enriched my life and probably saved my life more than once. But that IS their experience. In the same way I feel sad for people who have had bad experiences with science,with doctors, with religion, with relationships, with swimming or rock climbing. That doesn't make any of those thing inherently bad. Other people have like wise had good experiences with all of those things. Our experience is just our experience. We make the expereince what it is, largely by what we do with it. If we can find ways to transform our pain over anything in to something good, then we don't have to be locked into the bad experience. Once many years ago I was in love. It was a disaster. Then I had a different experience, which taught me to love and trust again. Partly because it was a good experience. And partly because I was willing for it to be a good experience. While you might think that is limited to matters of the emotions, people can have the same kinds of experience in matters of the mind. Some people are downright phobic about math... I am an ex-phobic about math, after spending my first 15 years of astrological study calculating charts. I made friends with algorithms!!!!

Bearheart


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:24 PM

Hey people...about that sailing off the edge of the Earth business...that's mostly a fallacy. Washington Irving wrote a seriously flawed account of the Columbus journey, which has since unfortunately been repeated again and again in public schools in the USA. In Washington Irving's story Columbus's sailors were terrified at the possibility of sailing off the edge of the world. Odd that they would be...it was well known to mariners in Columbus' day that the Earth was round. It was common knowledge to all but the most ignorant and benighted people.

Columbus knew perfectly well that the Earth was round, and so did other sea captains. The ancient image of Atlas holding a round world on his shoulders was well known in Europe at that time.

Sailors knew that the reason a ship's masts eventually vanished in the distance was because that ship was vanishing behind the curvature of the Earth.

Columbus' one error was that he thought the Earth was quite a bit smaller than it is, and he expected to arrive in Asia a lot sooner. His men naturally became agitated at the possibility of running out of food and water before making landfall. Had not the Americas and their islands lain in between, Columbus and his men would indeed have perished at sea for lack of provisions before reaching land, so his men were right to be afraid.

You had to be a real ignoramus to think the Earth was flat in 1492. The Romans and Greeks had been well aware that it was round.

Washington Irving either did not know some of these facts, or he was just trying to write an entertaining story. He published "Columbus" in 1828 and "Companions of Columbus" in 1831. Both books contained some serious inaccuracies. Whatever the case, he has succeeded in misleading millions of people to this day.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 02:51 PM

I'm hoping to have 200+ individuals participate in this study (otherwise it's pointless), and so far have stats on about 25. Please tell your musical friends, because while I'm not in a super hurry I'd like to start compiling data sometime within the next month and a half. It will take me at least a month to get the data sorted, and then I still have to write it up.

The information, as I said before, is confidential, and in fact I prefer it if you use a mudcat or other name.

Interestingly, about a week after I inaugurated this project I discovered that a major astrology journal that focuses on research is looking to some feature stuff on music. So if no one objects, I may want to publish my findings... Let me know (especially those of you who have submitted data) if you have a problem with this.

Once again, I need Date, Time and Place of Birth, and info on the style of music , instrument, whether a songwriter, professional non professional, and any other info you think is pertinent...

Thanks a bunch!

Bearheart


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,I remain
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 06:58 PM

Bearheart, why not tell folks that when they give out their birth info, they are revealing much of their personal selves? I was wondering just how you would get out of giving the finished report when it really hasn't much to do with their musical interest anyway. Saying you need at least 200 is way over the top for any such research on such a small group. I would never give my birth info to a person I didn't know and trust completely, because as you well know, our strengths and WEAKNESSES are there for the viewer and can be used for ill or good purposes. I have been waiting for some of the others who said they are 'into' astrology to say just how personal it is, but I guess they are also curious about fellow 'catters profiles. I too am an astrologer and I would never do what you are asking, especially when it is all posted in a very public site. Peace.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 10:49 PM

Don't what sign I was born under, because I couldn't read signs or anything else at the time.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 08:37 PM

Guest, I remain.

Point well taken.

I could do this study using the birthdata of well-known musicians (and may include a few for comparison) because data on many of them is available. However, I'm interested not just in the musicianship piece.

As I have said before: I'd like to go into it in more depth. Are there correlates for instance between interest in folk music as a style and the Venus sign and aspects, for instance? What about blues and the Venus sign/aspects?

And in most of the studies I've seen, large samplings are the rule. In some of the most prestigious and indepth studies esp, where they were looking at multiple factors. I really don't want to be sloppy and draw conclusions based on a handful of people. Among other things, there is a lot of diversity here and the possibility that 25 people would all have enough in common to check for any factor, other than that they were all musicians of some sort, is not too likely. In fact from the info that I've seen already, that's not the case. I think about 5 fiddlers have answered my query, for instance. Can't base a statistical analysis on that. There are twelve signs, after all.

As far as the privacy thing, sure, the chart will show me all kinds of personal stuff, if that's what I'm looking for. However, I have been a professional astrologer for about 20 years, and I pride myself on my professionalism. And besides, I'm too damn busy to bother with it unless asked by the "client". I not only try to do some music now and then, I'm also a full-time teacher, massage therapist and healer. And I live in the woods, and haul my own drinking water from the local spring, cut my firewood year-round (I cook on a wood-burning stove), raise herbs and vegetables, and make my own cat food for 6 cats. I also try to sleep occasionally. I really don't have much time to go mucking about in people's personal lives, or even to be thinking about it too much. Especially 200+ people.

That said, it is true that astrology lays it all bare. But since most mudcatters are unknown to me and likely to remain so, unless they choose otherwise, then I only know that "____" has Moon square Pluto, and all that that entails. Personally, I don't make too many judgements of that kind based on an individual's chart (even when I know him/her well), since I believe that each planetary signature has many meanings depending on the consciousness of the individual, and I can't claim to know what the individual's level of consciousness is.

Just for the hell of it, I will publish my data as well:

Bearheart 5/30/1954 2:11 PM EST Gettysburg PA

Don't argue with me about the time standard, my mother was a nurse in the hospital where I was born and she says they recorded all births in ST at that time.

For those who don't have access to a computer,Here's my info

Libra rising 6 degrees 36 minutes Sun 8 degrees Gemini, 9th house Moon 19 degrees Taurus 8th house Mercury 0 deg Cancer 9th house Jupiter 1 deg Cancer 9th house Venus 8 deg Cancer Conjunct midheaven (10th house cusp) Uranus 20 deg Cancer 10th house Mars 8 deg Capricorn conjunct Nadir (4th cusp) Saturn 3 deg Scorpio 3rd house Neptune 23 deg Libra 1st house Pluto 22 deg Leo 11th house Chiron 28 deg Capricorn 4th house Juno 24 deg Leo 11th house Vesta 16 deg Taurus 8th house Ceres 0 deg Libra 12th house conjunct Ascendent Pallas 0 deg Virgo 11th house

That's me! But not all of me...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 01:03 AM

Born 13th November - 1940 in Belfast, Ireland. 8 other siblings - all love to sing, An elder brother played fiddle. My father knew more Irish folk song than anyone else around. I play tenor banjo and mandolin and fool around on concertina, bodhran and mountain dulcimer. Played professionally in a group from 1968 to 1988. Still do a little as a single with one or two gigs every other week. Besides music my other passion is travel. Been all over the U.K., Ireland, Bahamas, Canada and about 21 states of the U.S.A. Hope you don't mind another Scorpio.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 12:38 AM

I'll believe if you can tell me tonight who will win this year's World Series, and the scores of the games, the Superbowl next January, and which horse (or horses) will win the Triple Crown next year. If your prediction for the World Series is correct, I'll bet heavily on the Superbowl and the Triple Crown. Unless, of course there is a "rule" that you can't use such information for profit. All the best.
Seamus


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 01:08 AM

And do you put those same restrictions on your priest, doctor, or whatever you put your faith in, Seamus. If ya don't believe in it, fine, but don't ridicule another's beliefs.

Unless, of course, your tongue is firmly in your cheek and we can't see that. If not, that is a pretty insulting posting, imo.

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 02:18 PM

Thanks for your words, kat;

I am used to this kind of thing, been dealing with it for 30 years, and it no longer irritates me, it just makes me smile. Partly because I know astrologers who make a VERY good living playing the stockmarket (and similar pursuits) by astrology. But you have to be into that (i.e., money/betting), and I'm not. You also have to be really into the statistical thing and super good with the math part of astrology. The only thing that gets me excited enough to bother with the math and statistics is MUSIC. Which is why I started this thread.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 07:03 AM

Ok Bearheart may as well throw my lot in.
9:05pm Tuesday 12 June 1951 Swansea South Wales.
It should be noted that as I was born in the summer the time I've given is 1 hour ahead of Greenwich Mean Time.

M


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 09:02 AM

kat,
I see nothing insulting at all in Seamus' post. Of course it is on the one hand tongue in cheek varying the well known insider joke when a parapsychologist applies for funding his research on precognition and one of the reviewers writes: If it doesn't exist, we shouldn't fund research and if it does, why does she need to apply? On the other hand, it's serious, for it says 'show me' and also indicates which results would be convincing for Seamus.
Introducing 'belief' as you did first and repeat now muddles the issue. Reread Bearheart's first post and you'll find that it is about 'research' and about hypotheses that can be refuted or confirmed empirically whether you believe in them or not. Out of respect for truth and empirical research I'm free to challenge any statements about issues that are in principle amenable to empirical testing. Otherwise we would have different sciences or researches for the respective faithful, like, e.g., in the insane days of 'German (as opposed to: Jewish) physics'.
You'll never hear a bad word from me (mostly no word at all) if a set of statements is declared a faith or a belief system except in two situations:
(a) the belief system interferes with what I believe to be general human rights (from what I've read from you I don't expect you to disagree when I say that for instance I wouldn't keep my mouth shut out of respect for a belief or a faith prescribing mutilation of young women)
(b) the belief system makes statements open to empirical testing.
For instance, I'd not challenge native Americans' beliefs on spiritual ceremonies but I'd challenge statements within the archaeological domain (where they originated from, e.g.) even if they declare these statements to be statements belief. I'd never challenge Christians' belief that Jesus is the Saviour but I'd challenge statements from them about the age of the earth even if they call them statements of faith.
You can't have it both ways. Saying that astrology works and can be tested and when the opposition rises its head saying they should shut up out of respect for a belief. I'd never challenge Bearheart for saying something as 'I believe in astrology. It makes me feel good doing it. Clients seem to like it etc.' But when it comes to empiry and that's how I have read the thread, I reserve the right to disagree and even to disagree strongly.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Naemanson
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 12:09 PM

(NOTE: TONGUE IS FIRMLY FIXED IN CHEEK!)

I've always said that if the TV and telephone psychics were any good they would be calling out and not waiting for us to call them!

Also, in the interest of public safety, we could recruit them to staff the fire stations, police cars, and ambulances so those services would be on site before accidents occur.

(OK Tongue is back where it belongs.)


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 01:57 PM

I am on a mailing list for work at home jobs. I often see on the list that psychic hotlines are looking for workers to work on the psychic phone lines (we will train). There was a recent outcry when it became public that welfare-to-work applicants were being recruited to work as telephone psychics. There is even a website by a person who tells of his experience. You can find his page by doing a search on "confessions of a telephone psychic".

I am an advocate for people using discernment and being fulling informed of the history of any belief system they choose. That is why I provided the link earlier in this thread to the history of what we call astrology.

Our country's greatest strength of freedom is also its achilles heel, in that under the freedom to believe, many have created belief systems that bring harm when put into action. There is a law suit beginning in Idaho against the Aryan Nations group that brings out the problem of protecting beliefs that lead to harmful actions. There needs to be discernment in seeing that acting out a belief is not always healthy for people, and in my particular concern, not always healthy for children.

I receive emails every day from people who have realized that they have been duped, lost years of opportunity, their health, and the welfare of their children was neglected, because they believed in a spirituality that turned out to be based on fraud. These people were well meaning, they only wanted to find their true purpose in life, serve God, save the planet, and all manner of altruistic motives. They did not know when they began to practice the beliefs they were taught that the astrology, channeling, etc. was not spirituality. At the time they took up these beliefs, they did not know the history of the people who were held up as spiritual masters and gurus. They will never have those years back, and their children will never have healthy childhoods to remember.

It is because I do believe in authentic loving of one another, truth, honesty, goodness, peace, responsibility, accountability, and ethics, that I speak out on this subject. If what I say leads one person to really find out the facts behind practices such as astrology, fortune telling, psychics, then I think it is worth any heat I may get for speaking out.

As Wolfgang points out, beliefs can be used to justify many practices. Beliefs are used to justify war, human sacrifice, and all manner of atrocities. Questioning the basis of our beliefs is our responsibility.

I remember when spirituality used to mean the greatest commmandment, "love one another". I'm not saying this to preach religion. My point is that with the baby boom generation, we have come to define spirituality as fortune telling, magic rituals, communicating with the dead, casting horoscopes, perfumed candles, exotic gurus, and so forth. None of these really have anything to do with spirituality, in my opinion. It might feel nice/smell nice, but to me, spirituality is loving one another. I consider it loving of me to do what I can to prevent people from being the victims of fraud, and from families and children being led down the slippery slope from one seemingly harmless superstition to something progressively more destructive. If I held back this information, I would consider that an omission on my part to provide just the information someone may need to make an informed and constructive choice about what they choose to believe.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: hesperis
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 02:27 AM

Alice, that was very well written, and I understand your concerns.
When I was in public school, I was blamed as a trouble-maker. When I went to the teachers asking for protection from the people beating me up, they thought I was lying.
Because I came from a broken home, because I was book-smart, because I was full of grief and bored in class, the teachers thought that I was plotting to beat people up on my lunch hour... Meanwhile I had escaped the tedium and the pain, into a fantasy world where everyone loved me, and I was useful.

Psychology isn't infallible, either. Not every recipient of abuse grows up to abuse people. In grade 4, I realized that I was being beaten up whichever way I turned, so I may as well do what I want to do. If someone had told me that earlier, I probably wouldn't have been beaten up so badly... Anyway.
Thank you for speaking out.

You are right, spirituality is about loving one another.

The rest are just fun things to do that may or may not provide an insight on how to love one another. And like anything else, these things can be used to justify what is good, or what is not good. We always have that choice.

I still enjoy learning about astrology, tarot, and magical rituals. It interests me.

Hopefully, the people contributing their information here or in PMs to Bearheart are aware that people are more than the snapshot of planets in the sky at their birth.

Karma is a strange concept, one that I personally would not use to justify any sort of action, even loving, healthy action.

That someone would use that concept to justify abuse is horrifying.
Blaming the victim is far too common, I have experienced that myself, and I would not blame the tools so much as the people who corrupted those tools.

With compassion,
hesperis


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 11:45 AM

Hi, hesperis, I've always been interested in different cultures and their practices, beliefs, and mythologies, too. I still am. I just look at things with more discernment now, and dig deeply for the facts.

take care,

Alice


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 06:30 PM

Hi Michael in Swansea, Thanks for the data. Can you send me info about instrument(s) you play and whether you sing or not; style of music you play; professional/nonprofessional (semi-professional?); anything else about your relationship with music that seems relevant? I need this for the study. You can email me at: healing@frognet.net

Just for the record: I have a friend who is a social worker who used to work for children's services. According to a man who investigates cases of child abuse for the government, and teaches social service people about identifying and dealing with such cases (she took a workshop with this man), more children are molested by fundamentalists (usually preachers) than any other identifiable group. Religion per se does not protect-- and I would never want to generalize that people who are religious leaders are all child molesters either. People are people. Some of us are just really messed up and need help to get well. And some of us have a thing for victimizing others. My view is that I like every other person on the planet have a responsibility to be aware, to do what I can to help, and to do no harm. But you know, I can not protect those people-- and I know many of them-- who are responsible for their lives but who will not take responsibility for their lives. If a person chooses to look for someone to "fix" all their problems for them, they will find that person-- and there will always be a price. And I have seen a lot of people willing to do that. I don't condone the behavior of unscrupulous people, but I have had the experience of attempting to "educate" people into taking responsibility for their lives, and seen them disregard what I said and go looking for some one who would tell them what to do and how to do it. And some of them were otherwise very smart people. Sad but true. Most every tool I've ever seen could be used to create or destroy.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 07:38 PM

I'm still looking for more folks willing to give birth information for this project.

Needed: time of birth, date of birth, and place of birth

Musical instrument(s) played Musical style(s) played

Singer?

Songwriter?

Any other info you think is relevant.

I prefer a PM as it is easier to copy and keep with the chart and that keeps the info confidential.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 11:05 PM

Alice,

I'm with ya.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 12:50 PM

Facts, or what a man believes to be facts, are delightful...Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. -- Mark Twain


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 02:58 PM

I dont believe in astrology...we Taurus' are sceptical..


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 03:02 PM

seriously Mbo, and Naemanson, I believe our lives "fall apart" mainly because of bad choices. But, it's a great comfort to blame it on the gods, or fate or luck or Karma.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bagpuss
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 04:15 PM

I remeber a famous experiment which showed that people who have less understanding of statistics, and underestimate the frequency of chance occurrences are more likely to believe in the supernatural.

Has anyone taken part in this experiment?

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 05:56 PM

Kendall, you miss the point. One cannot abdicate responsibility because of karma, the gods, the stars, whathaveyou. It is by our very belief in such things, as tools to help us understand our choices, that we claim responsibility. If I shrug and say, "Well, I guess I must have bad karma, that's why that happened." Then, according to the teachings I've studied for so long, my next step would be to say "Thanks for the lessons learned. I accept what has happened, now what can I do to change my behavior so that I don't repeat that mistake, again?"

Do you make fun of someone who reads the Bible and tries to live their life by it, or at least use it as a guide?

Bagpuss, do you have any references? Do you know how much statistics can be manipulated, including those in "famous experiments?"


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: momnopp
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 10:45 PM

Well this thread is very cool and I haven't read the whole thing. But what I've read leads me to believe that a number of folks would be interested in the National Capital Area Skeptics. Their web site describes them as ". . .an independent nonprofit educational and scientific organization that promotes critical thinking and scientific understanding, with a focus on paranormal and fringe-science claims. NCAS is based in the Washington, Maryland, and Virginia community, where it serves as an advocate for science and reason, actively promoting the scientific method, rational inquiry, and education. NCAS is at the front lines in the battle against gullibility and fraud."

blue clicky for Skeptics

They are apparently a member of the Skeptic Ring (who knew?!!!).


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 05:55 AM

katlaughing writes:

Bagpuss, do you have any references? Do you know how much statistics can be manipulated, including those in "famous experiments?"

kat,
which point do you want to make with the second sentence of that statement? Sure, it's true (and no sane person would ever believe anything else), that there have been errors in the statistical analysis of experiments (more so in pro-paranormal experiments from my reading experience, but that's a different story). In addition, there has been fakery of data (less so in pro-paranormal experiments, but that again is another story), outright fraud, 'improving' of data, wrong interpretations of rock solid data and all that. So what? In science, there is never reliance on single unrepeated (or worse: unrepeatable) experiments. Only after loads of experiments giving a kind of consistent pattern (you'll hardly ever find any area of science in which all articles find identical results), scientists think they start to know something about their subject.
So it is trivially true that there are individual articles not to be trusted. But to ask someone (Bagpuss) whether (s)he knows this simple fact is about the same as asking someone who tells you about something (s)he has read in a newspaper whether (s)he knows that there have been lies in newspapers.
As I read your sentence you mean nothing else than 'I don't believe you, I don't want to believe you and I won't believe you'. Since each single experiment can be brushed away with your type of argumentation, you are in the comfortable position that you can choose whatever you want to believe. This type of argumentation is below your usually high standard of arguing.

Now for the first sentence: One reading is that you want to say 'back up or shut up' with a bit nicer words, but another reading is that you are genuinely interested. Assuming that this is true, here's my knowledge of the state of the art:

There are several hundred articles about individual differences in propensity to cognitive illusions, to suboptimal statistical reasoning, to illusions of memory,.... Some dozen of them use amount of belief in paranormal phenomena as a variable to study, usually but not necessarily in two groups, believers (sheep) and disbelievers (goats). What are the findings? Quite typical for the study of human behaviour, it is not easy to get a clear picture after so few articles (yes, some dozens is still 'few'). As for the first part of Bagpuss' statement ('less understanding of statistics' in sheep), there is mixed evidence (e.g., Blackmore, British J. of Psychology, 1997, 88, 683-689). It seems to be that general knowledge of statistics may be (there are several dissenting articles you can find referenced in Blackmore's) not worse in sheep (no article claims it is worse in goats). As for the second part of Bagpuss' statement (sheep 'underestimate the frequency of chance occurrences'), there is considerable and largely consistent evidence that this is true. They (sheep) seem to have a biased memory in counting their successes and failures (tend to remember their successes and to forget their failures; tend to underestimate how many successes are to be expected by chance alone; tend to see skill at work where there was nothing but chance; Blackmore and Troscianko, Brit. J. Psychology, 1985, 81, 455-468). This is consistent with other research on their memory. They forget disconfirming (for their paranormal belief system) evidence much more often than goats forget disconfirming evidence for their preconceptions. The memory is equally good for facts confirming the respective conviction (Wiseman and Morris, Brit. J. Psychology, 1995, 86, 113-125; Jones and Russel, European J. Social Psychology 1980, 10, 309-312). In short, their memory is good in general, but highly selective when it comes to things they do not (want to) believe. Paranormal belief correlates positively with general gullibility (Psychological Reports 1987, 61, 435-438). You want to hear something good for sheep, for a change? No problems, they are less likely to get a depression (sorry, no reference at hand, but I could find it easily).
Mind you other readers that the results are not in general true for all persons believing in something supernatural as, e.g. the Christian god. There are large differences between believers in traditional religions of many kinds and, e.g., believers in New Age thinking.

So, that should be enough for a start if you really want to know, kat. I'm happy to oblige in future, if you are interested in scientific research and in most cases I will be able to provide you references. If you only want to make a point in an argument, be careful. I'm here and watch even if I don't post.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bagpuss
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 06:31 AM

Well you have lots of references above, so I won't repeat them. The experiment I was referring to has been replicated hundreds of times by people with no interest in falsifying data or manipulating results (including me). In this experiment, subjects were asked to produce a string of random numbers between one and six - as if they were throwing a die 100 hundred times in a row. "Sheep" were far more likely to underestimate the number of times the same number would come up consecutively than "goats". This suggests that belief in the paranormal is in part due to the person seeing patterns that they do not believe could be due to chance or co-incidence. However because they are underestimating coincidence, their belief may be in error.

Like I say, I keep an open mind on certain phenomena and watch the research going on at Edinburgh into parapsychology with great interest.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 09:15 AM

Heck, I'll play,if you don't mind another Scorpio.

11.10 p.m., 24 October 1952, Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada

I play guitar and piano equally poorly; my singing is better, marginally. Don't do any of it in public (any more) but, in the privacy of my own nest, it's mostly folk, religious and old time stuff ... but would like to be reincarnated as a blues singer. OK, and R&R is great when the girls get together for a bit of roguery. I'm also keen on the historical connections of songs, as well as a whole lot of stuff connected with the Oral Tradition.

sian


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,Mongo
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 01:05 PM

Bagbuss, that means Bearcat is in luck....

...in a recent survey, 85% of some 1500 adults polled believed they had "above average intelligence"... :)

I bet they're all skeptical, regular churchgoing, purely practical people...

...that secretly read their horoscopes, and toss spilt salt over their left shoulders... :)

BTW, Bearcat, I sent my stats to you via the email address on your website, and I hope you have fun with it. I'd love to see the trends that emerge.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 01:36 PM

James Lippard (lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu):
McGrew, John H., McFall, Richard M.
A Scientific Inquiry Into the Validity of Astrology
Journal of Scientific Exploration, 4, 75-83 1990

Six expert astrologers independently attempted to match 23 astrological birth charts to the corresponding case files of 4 male and 19 female volunteers. Case files contained information on the volunteers' life histories, full-face and profile photographs, and test profiles from the Strong-Campbell Vocational Interest Blank and the Cattell 16-P.F. Personality Inventory. Astrologers did no better than chance or than a nonastrologer control subject at matching the birth charts to the personal data; this result was independent of astrologers' confidence ratings for their predicted matches. Astrologers also failed to agree with one another's predictions.

Barth, J., Bennet, J.
Leonardo 7, 235
1974

Found no correlation between occupation, medical problems, height, longevity, and the zodiac signs containing Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter at the time of birth.

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astronomy Quarterly, 1, 85
1977

Pretty much the same study and results as the previous reference. Additionally, no correlation was found between occupation, medical problems, etc. and angular separation (along the ecliptic) of planet pairs at time of birth.

Gauquelin, M.
L'Influence des Astres, Etude Critique et Experimentale
Dauphin Press
1955

Found no correlation between occupation and the zodiac signs containing Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Moon at the time of birth.

Shawn Carlson
A Double-blind Test of Astrology
Nature, 318, 419
1985

116 adults filled out California Personality Index surveys and provided natal data. One set of natal data and the results of three personality surveys (one of which was for the same person as the natal data) were given to an astrologer who was to interpret the natal data and determine which of the three CPI results belonged to the same subject as the natal data. The San Francisco chapter of the National Council for Geocosmic Research recommended the 28 astrologers who took part. They approved the procedure in advance and predicted that they would select the correct CPI profiles in more that 50 per cent of the trials. Out of 116 trials, the astrologers chose the correct CPI 34 per cent of the time. This agrees with the random chance prediction of 1 of 3 trails producing a correct choice. Horoscopes were prepared by professional astronomers for 83 subjects. Each subject was given three charts, one of which belonged to the subject. In 28 of 83 trials the subject chose the correct chart. This is the success rate expected for random chance.

Eysenck, H.,
Astrology: Science or Superstition?
Encounter, Dec 1979, p85

Jackson, M., Fiebert, M. S.
Introversion-Extroversion and Astrology
Journal of Psychology, 105, 155
1980

Saklofske, D., Kelly, I., McKerracher, D.
An Empirical Study of Personality and Astrological Factors
Journal of Psychology, 110, 275
1982

These three studies found no correlation between astrological factors (sun and planetary) and personality, including the introversion/extroversion index of the Eysenck Personality Inventory.

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astrology: True or False, p215
Prometheus
1988

A double blind test of astrologer John McCall was organized at the University of Virginia by Charles Tolvert and Philip Ianna. McCall claimed an 80 percent success rate in choosing the correct natal horoscope for a subject from three false ones. Twenty-eight subjects were chosen according to McCalls requirements (naturally born caucasians). McCall had 7 successes out of 28 trials, exactly the number predicted by chance.

Silverman, Bernie I.,
Contemporary Astronomy by J. Pasachoff, cf p437
W. B. Saunders
1977

Kop, P., Heuts, B.
Journal of Interdisciplenary Cycle Research 5, 19
1974

The above 2 studies found no correlation between marriage/divorce rate and sun sign combinations in the state of Michigan and the city of Amsterdam, respectively.

Culver, R.
Sun Sign Sunset
Pachert
1979

Van Deusen, E.
Astrogenetics
Doubleday
1976

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astronomy Quarterly, 1, 147
1977

The above three references examined the correlation between sun sign and over 60 occupations. The results of all three were negative -- no correlation was found between occupation and sun sign.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 01:57 PM

From Resources to promote Critical Thinking:
click here
"...when one has a system based on randomness and arbitrary convention, a shuffle, mix-up or derangement of the system is unimportant, because the whole system is just a random word generator, and it continues to generate random words as you mix it further. The puzzle is how any conscious human being could remain unaware of the arbitrariness of the procedure, once he understands it.

Returning to the question of the popularity of astrology, psychologists have no trouble accounting for it. It comes from the uniquely personal aspect of astrology. Every day you pick up the paper, turn to the astrology column, and read about yourself! Not Ronald Reagan, not Madonna, not Elizabeth Taylor … but you, you, you. It's all about you. It's all to do with you. ...."

".....There are more than 10,000 practicing astrologers in the U.S., and Americans spend more than $200 million annually consulting astrologers. In short, millions of Americans, from Ronald Reagan to minimum wage earners, will doubtless continue to regulate some part of their daily schedule in accord with the arbitrary and potentially harmful "advice" generated by the mindless random-advice generator provided by astrology. Ironically, they will therefore continue to pay unknowing lip service to the tenets of an otherwise forgotten religion of ancient Babylon."

I'll state this again, I have seen this issue from both sides of the argument. There is no way, now that I know the facts about the fallacy of astrology, that I would sit back and not provide truthful information when I see people being recruited into such a belief. Harm does not come just from fanatical fringe practitioners. Time, money, and talent is diverted from people's lives into a practice that has no basis in truth. Just think of how better the world would be if all this time, money, talent, and energy were put into practicing something that is truthful and constructive - volunteering in community assistance; creating something in art, music, literature; seeing ourselves, friends, family, associates as UNIQUE and unfathomably individual persons, not subject to the categorizing of a system of symbols.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 02:20 PM

No one is "recruiting" on here. Alice, you say,

"Time, money, and talent is diverted from people's lives into a practice that has no basis in truth."

This is a huge assumption on your part, esp. regarding those of us who have participated in this thread and tried to make it clear that we consider such things to be only tools. It is also important to remember that what may be the "truth" for you culd be different from that of others.

You also say, "Just think of how better the world would be if all this time, money, talent, and energy were put into practicing something that is truthful and constructive - volunteering in community assistance; creating something in art, music, literature; seeing ourselves, friends, family, associates as UNIQUE and unfathomably individual persons, not subject to the categorizing of a system of symbols."

From what I've read and seen in my 2.5 years here on the Mudcat, that is exactly what the majority of us do: volunteer, create, appreciate each other's diversity and UNIQUE talents and I don't think I've ever seen a one of us base any of that on asking what the other's "sign" was.

Bearheart is a new member. She stated quite clearly that she wanted to do this for fun and that people who were interested could PM her. She has certainly had cause to feel a little unwelcome and to wonder at how close-minded some Mudcatters can be, as well as disrespectful of others' spiritual beliefs.

Not all Americans of African descent are into rap, live in a ghetto, and carry guns; not all people of religion think homosexuals should burn in hell; not all metaphysicians are like those you found in the new age movement; not all folks who use astrology for a tool, go overboard and let it rule their lives. The majority do not.

It is unfair and judgemental to say that an entire body of people are a certain way because of the experience you had with so-called new age people.

As I said on the other thread, I would ask, again, why is it necessary for the sceptics among us to denigrate, make assumptions, and generally treat with disdain, the spiritual beliefs/practices of some of the rest of us? I thought Mudcatters had more respect for one another's diversity than that.

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 03:21 PM

Back to "Crossing Over". I have watched the show carefully since the first installment trying to make sense of his ability to receive messages from the dead. My take on it is that he is very good at reading people, may have some "ESP" skills, and is a total fraud although he may not know it. First, observe the pressure he puts on his subjects claiming that if they don't respond quickly another spirit will push in and the opportunity will be gone. Second, How many people do you know who couldn't respond positively to "Is there a 'K' in your life somewhere?" His subject laughs and says "Yes" or tears up and says "Yes" and he's off and running. Third, on many occasions, he does a series of readings about"K" only to switch to another person and say "Oops, this is your 'K'" Well what about all the information he just gave to subject #1? Last, he NEVER reads a single person. there is always someone there to "help" who is of course hoping to make a contact himself. If this were "real" the readings could be done "one on one" with NO feedback from the subject until the "contact" ended. He does make some interesting "hits" re: colors, special clothing, missing limbs, etc. but so do most Tarot Card readers and crystal ball starers. There is a certain mount of "reading" involved. But is Aunt Hannah crossing over to remind me of her broken finger nail? I don't think so.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 04:19 PM

Kat wrote, "...why is it necessary for the sceptics among us to denigrate, make assumptions, and generally treat with disdain, the spiritual beliefs/practices of some of the rest of us?"

That is a pretty sweeping generalization. It seems to "denigrate, make assumptions, and generally treat with disdain" our scepticism. Remember we want to believe these claims but require proof before we can make that leap. When proof is presented we will be able to ask Bearheart to cast a horoscope and will be happy with the results. Until then Astrology and the other "new age" beliefs remain superstitions to us.

Alice had a bad experience. It left her with a hard edge where it comes to these new age things. She, like the rest of us here, represents a minority of one, i.e., herself. She may not meet the definition of sceptic.

I too used to have a hard edge but that was only intolerance learned from my parents. I lost some of that when I lost my girlfriend. Part of the reason I lost her was my disrespect for her own new age beliefs. I hope I learned a lesson there.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 04:33 PM

No more sweeping in generalisations than those made against us. Also, this thread was not started as a discussion on sceptics; there has been a general tone of derision for the subject it was started about.

Astrology and a lot of other things which are called "new age" have been around, used, and/or known about for thousands of years, esp. in Asian countries. It is unfortunate that the renewed interest in them has brought about the term, "new age" since most of the concepts are very old.

I would ask you this: would you all keep this up if we were talking about a specific religion, i.e. Christianity? Knowing that there were several of us on here who were believers/practitioners?

Let's respect each other's diversity and let it go. Obviously we are not going to agree about any of it.

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 03:19 AM

I can't speak to all of the research cited in this material, but I will comment on some of it from the perspective of 30+ years of study of the subject.

Barth, J., Bennet, J. Leonardo 7, 235 1974

Found no correlation between occupation, medical problems, height, longevity, and the zodiac signs containing Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter at the time of birth.

An astrologer would not look at these planetary placements as indicative of anything, unless they were specifically related to the area of the chart which would describe occupation, ect. For instance, one looks at the 1st and 6th house sectors and the placements of the planets that rule them, and also the sign and house placements of the Sun (which describes the overall vitality and life forceof the individual) and the Moon (which gives information on inherited/genetic health problems)-- in my own case Neptune would be the primary significator of health/medical problems, but in my brother's case Saturn and the Moon would be the primary significators of health/medical problems. This study doesn't even mention any of those planets! This study was clearly designed by someone who doesn't have a clue how real astrology functions.

Gauquelin, M. L'Influence des Astres, Etude Critique et Experimentale Dauphin Press 1955 I don't know which of Gauquelin's studies this was. But in fact he and his wife, who originally set out to disprove astrology, did design several studies which in fact did show that (using charts of people who were highly successful in their fields) certain planets traditionally associated with certain occupations do in fact occupy sectors of the chart associated with occupation. In fact their studies were so statistically relevant that the studies are frequently quoted by astrologers and used by astrologers for their own research. One of the books in my own library that is devoted to vocational analysis makes extensive use of the G-sectors, as they are called (after Gauquelin). The book is called Planets In Work, by Jamie Binder, and she lists three volumes of work by the Gaulquelins. The one I have most fequently seen referenced is a 1978 distillation of their research called Cosmic Influences on Human Behaviour.

Silverman, Bernie I., Contemporary Astronomy by J. Pasachoff, cf p437 W. B. Saunders 1977

Kop, P., Heuts, B. Journal of Interdisciplenary Cycle Research 5, 19 1974

The above 2 studies found no correlation between marriage/divorce rate and sun sign combinations in the state of Michigan and the city of Amsterdam, respectively.

Again, I don't know why they would think that there would be any correlation between these two things. I certainly wouldn't look for such indications in the Sun signs. The area traditionally looked at for marriage and/or divorce is the 7th house, its sign and whatever planets are located therein, and its planetary ruler. Only people with Aquarius risng (which puts Leo on the 7th cusp,so that the Sun would be the planetary ruler) or with the sun in the 7th, would have any correlation at all between Sun sign and marriage/divirce rate. Though frankly why anyone would be interested in this is beyond me. Wouldn't it be more meaningful to look at the 7th house in light of the kind of partner that would be most fulfilling for the individual in question? (ie, Jupiter in the 7th or ruling it--- if other factors concur-- correlates with a person who needs a fulfilling spiritual partnership, or a partner who encourages their urge for personal growth. Of course no astrologer worth his/her salt would look at just one factor, but would look at the chart holistically. A Pisces with Moon in Sagittarius with Jupiter in the 7th would especially need a spiritual partner to be fulfilled-- though these signs do TEND to need several attempts before they get it right!-- Whereas a Gemini with Moon in Leo and a 7th house Jupiter might be more interested in support for personal growth, especially through creative endeavors, particularly if Libra was rising. and the sign Jupiter is in, as well as the aspects it makes, will also color the partner picture.

It's really rather silly for people who have no or very little knowledge of astrology to design these studies, because they don't know what they are looking at or for. It's about as useful statistically speaking as for most of us Mudcatters to do DNA research. We don't have the knowledge of the subject, or the tools. And most of these people won't take the time to find out what they need to know to design such a study.

Culver, R. Sun Sign Sunset Pachert 1979

Van Deusen, E. Astrogenetics Doubleday 1976

Culver, R., Ianna, P. Astronomy Quarterly, 1, 147 1977

The above three references examined the correlation between sun sign and over 60 occupations. The results of all three were negative -- no correlation was found between occupation and sun sign.

Of course not. Occupation is seldom shown by the sun sign. It's shown by other factors entirely. The sign, planetary placements and condition of the 10th house (and late 9th house, according to Gauquelin) and Ascendant/1st house (and late 12th house--G. again) are PRIMARY, with SOME input from Sun and Moon, including, interestingly enough, the Moon phase at the time of birth (there are 8 phases not 4 by the way, in western astrology). Of course if the Sun is configured with the 10th/1st house it will be important. But it only spends 2 hours +/- per day in each of these sectors of the sky. So how many people are likely to have it as a significator of occupation?

Again I have to say-- how good can a study be if the people designing it know nothing about the subject? They haven't a clue what to look for. You can't count apples if all you have is oranges. You have to start by measuring the appropriate statistics. Let's hope all those folks doing medical research aren't being this sloppy.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:56 AM

Raisonner avec un astrologue, c'est boxer avec un oreiller à plumes: on l'enforce en un point, il se regonfle ailleurs (Michel Gauquelin, 1955) (my translation: To reason with an astrologer is like boxing with a feather bed: you make an impression at one point and it/he inflates at another)

I'm glad that the discussion turns from belief to empirical research for that's where it belongs. There are numerous studies about astrology. By far most of them find no effect at all, some find an effect which may or may not be consistent with astrological predictions. If I compare studies that come out in support of astrology with those that don't I cannot find a difference in the general approach to method of study. Mostly, specific astrological predictions are singled out and looked for in a large sample. Since many astrological predictions are specific about the direction of the effect but vague about effect size ("there is a tendency...", "may be counteracted by...") the reasoning of all those studies is that even if there is but a "tendency" it has to show in a large unbiased sample because all potential counteracting or supporting tendencies should cancel out. The astrologers cite all the supporting findings and deal with the contradictory evidence in the way Bearheart has demonstrated above: The researchers should have looked at...instead and don't know a thing about astrology. Since there are so many conflicting predictions and so many conflicting astrological systems, this reasoning will never run out of arguments. What Gauquelin has thought about that I have cited above.
Two examples and I start with Gauquelin. The 1955 book referenced by Alice has the bulk of his data about the so called Mars effect, and his findings about Jupiter and Saturn. Gauqulin explicitly states that his findings contradict traditional astrology and he does so in no kind terms (see above or: "[astrological arguments are full of] l'ignorance, l'incohérance, la déformation des faits"; no need to translate that, I guess). He has done many more experiments with only negative results and I am at a loss of understanding why only a tiny fraction of the work of the Gauquelins which (a) does not fit well within the astrological theory, (b) is seen by Gauquelin himself as a refutation of traditional astrology, and (c) is known for potentially serious artifacts of data selection, is cited by astrologers.
Peter Niehenke was once (and perhaps still is) chairman of one of the German astrological societies. He has made his doctoral dissertation about astrology and I haven't checked the details but I trust a professional astrologer to get the astrological predictions correct. In his two million items of data he looked for several thousand correlations and found nothing at all beyond chance (if you look for several thousand correlations a sizable amount of them must be correct by chance alone) and stated that clearly. He was of course severely criticised in his own astrological journal for singling out effects ('you should have also taken ... into account') and defended his research bravely against his fellow astrologers. When he found that his results did not support his belief he wrote: "I experience every day that the interpretation of the horoscope allows deep insight into the human nature"; he then spoke about "two conflicting realities" and said that astrology is in the danger of becoming a kind of religion, a faith and went on: "But why not? One surely need not worry about astrology and its survival even with more negative results upcoming. A world in which astrology is true is once and for all a more beautiful world than one in which astrology does not exist...The want for astrology to be true, therefore, is much stronger than all rational counterproofs." That's a demonstration how to explain away results one doesn't like.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: hesperis
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 07:56 AM

And Bearheart is saying that she wants to do a study of the correlation between certain placements and music. She is basically trying to find out if what she was taught agrees with the facts.

So now everyone is arguing for or against astrology.
Serious astrologers do not look at only the sun sign as indicative of everything and anything, yet that is what the people with no knowledge of the system use to base their opinions of astrology on. Also, there are misguided people in any occupation, please do not blame the people who are trying to do their job well for the actions of people who are corrupt.

There is a big difference between the silly little sun-sign horoscopes in the newspaper and what Bearheart is trying to do here.

If you want to discuss how she is going about the study, that is a valid point of discussion. If you just want to say, before she has even done her study, that astrology has no validity, then you are a little bit out of line. (IMHO)

I would be interested in what parameters Bearheart is thinking of using in her study.

hesperis


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 08:42 AM

Just for the record Kat, I dont "Laugh" at anyones beliefs. And, to a degree, I agree with you. If we are self aware, we really can not hide behind Karma or Fate. However, there are those who never get beyond that point of blamming fate or luck or karma.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:34 AM

Well, Kendall, I haven't run into anyone here who hides behind such things.

Hesperis, well said. Everyone seems to have totally ignored what I said above about Bearheart being a new member and respecting one another's diversity. If I were her, I am not sure I would come back to be bullied some more.

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:24 AM

Bearheart said in her initial post that she would share her results with the forum and then gave an example that 80% of guitarists had Neptune in the 10th house (of career). That's a pretty high percentage and an interesting statistic, but what's more intriguing than that is why didn't the other 20% have Neptune in the 10th house of career? It's seldom you see any explanations or theories regarding the subjects that didn't fit the statistic. Probably for the same reason you never hear what the fifth doctor in the "four out of five doctors recommend Slayer aspirin" studies said: "For God's sakes, whatever you do, don't take Slayer aspirin. That stuff'll kill you!"


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:08 PM

Before I get totally sidetracked. Thanks hesperis for your words-- I feel like someone out there is actually READING what I've been writing! To me the whole point of this excercise is to see whether there really are those kinds of correlates.

And thanks, sian, for your data. For those of you who can, PMing data is helpful...

Actually I didn't say that 80% of guitarists have that placement. (I was giving that as an example, sorry if that wasn't clear.) It maybe that none of them will have that placement-- though I will be surprised if that is the case. (Luckily I don't have a problem with surprises.) But the beauty of astrology is that there are several factors to look at. I would also expect guitarists to have Neptune rising, or as the ruler of the 10th house (meaning that Pisces is in that house; Neptune rules Pisces) even if it were in the 5th house of creativity; of course they might be really good guitarists but only do it in the privacy of their bedroom-- in which case the 10th house--which rules career and being in the public eye-- wouldn't be involved at all.

The Gauguelins' research is well documented. And it is true that their findings challenge SOME very old astrological beliefs. But the astology of the year 2000 is not the astrology of 100 years ago, or even of 25 years ago. Most astrologers want the facts, believe it or not, and are willing to explore and revamp astrology as new things are learned. However, if you look carefully at the work the Gs have done since 1955 (the books I am citing were published in 1978, '80,and '82) it really doesn't deny astrology-- the traditional meanings for Saturn and Mars, for instance, as significators of vocation BY HOUSE PLACEMENT (there are other factors that are also utilized) are borne out, but with a twist-- the sector of influence precedes the cusp of the tenth house by about 15 degrees while still incorporating the early part of the tenth house--the cusp, which is the most important point used in delineation. One interesting distinction they have been able to make is that while Mercury is very important in the charts of technical writers, the Moon is really the significator for creative writers-- which if you think about it makes a lot of sense, since the Moon is about imagination, whereas Mercury is about facts and the five senses.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Escamillo
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:33 PM

I am not taking part in this thread because it was started by a Mudcatter for a purpose, and would feel as interferring between the originator and her many potential clients. Instead I would invite all to start another thread, on the subject of the validity of astrology, and then wait for Bearheart and other astrologers to discuss their point in a neutral place.

Isn't it better ? I won't start it, I feel too new to start threads of hot discussions! :)

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:40 AM

Thank you Andres. I am personally at the point in this discussion where I have no more desire to dialog about the validity of astrology. I want to focus on the intent of this thread-- to collect data for the study. I have more important things to do-- like singing and playing music, and collating data... Please feel free to PM or email me with data as per earlier threads.

Thanks to the various folks--you know who you are-- who have recently sent me data to work with. I think to fill things out I will add data for other musicians I know who are not mudcatters. most of them are into Celtic music though, and I'd like to include more of other styles in the study, for contrast... anyone out there willing to participate?


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Escamillo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:23 AM

I won't send data because I'm a (friendly) enemy of astrology, but I think that a thread dedicated to the discussion of its validity would challenge detractors and sustainers for an open discussion with no one feeling offended, no matter how strong the discrepancies could be. That's an idea, could it be good ?


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:45 AM

Dear Andres,

Thank you for trying to understand. I do not consider you to be close-minded, just a little hard-headed!**BG**

Anyway, at this point I think those of us who have defended astrology as a tool are feeling a bit brow-beaten and I know I, for one, and a couple of others, would have no interest in continuing a debate of that kind for now.

As this thread is getting too long, I do think, after talking to a couple of others, that a new astrology-friendly thread would be nice, so I will probably start one. I would just ask those of you who are its detractors to respect us enough to not start in on us in that thread. If you want a thread to do that, then I guess a "sceptics" thread would be in order, eh?

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Escamillo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:36 PM

Hey! I was suggesting a neutral place ! You are too fast for me, Katalina ...

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:54 PM

Sorry, Andres-- wasn't assuming you'd be interested in giving stats-- it was very late when I last wrote and I was going on about 4 hours of sleep in the last 36, so my punctuation wasn't on-- meant to direct that invitation to folks in general, not to you. Do appreciate your thoughts and Kat's on redirecting the dialog to two separate threads.

I'm going to go take a nap...


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:05 PM

Dear Andres,

Ah, darlin'...I had been thinking about starting one for a couple of days, now, just hadn't said so; so really not all that quick after all, see?*bg*

I knew you meant a neutral thread, but what I was saying was, I think those of us who are pro-astrology, probably wouln't want to participate as we already have had to do so much debating in this thread; feels like we need a break to just enjoy a discussion among those who believe in it.

Big Hugs to you, too, mi amigo,

luvyaKatalina


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: guinnesschik
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:27 PM

I've been keeping a pretty keen eye on this thread, and I'm wondering if Bearheart has had enough folks contributing to her study to make serious headway.

Open-minded skeptic, who happens to be a Saggitarius and lives in a haunted house, ;-)guinnesschik


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,John D.
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:34 PM

Farrrrrrrrr out!


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:42 AM

Have padded the file slightly with a few musician friends and acquaintances who aren't mudcatters--- and am up to 52 charts. Would definitely like more. Plan to begin serious work on this around the end of October so would like to have double or triple that by then. Will continue to take more charts if they come in but probably not past Christmas as I want to have the bulk of work done by the end of January, and even if I start soon that will take some doing. So if you have friends that are willing to participate please have them contact me.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: guinnesschik
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:21 PM

Good luck in your endeavor, Bearheart! I'd like to encourage even "nonbelievers" to participate, even if just for fun. We all learn so much by keeping an open mind and experiencing new things. ~Blessings!~


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 05:24 PM

Thanks for your encouragement, g-chik. I wonder if those skeptics have some astrological thingy in common?


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: The Lighthouse
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM

Us skeptics were born under the sign of "Reality".


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: guinnesschik
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:04 AM

I keep repeating, I'm a skeptic, too. BUT: I'm an open minded skeptic. There are too many things in this world the are "beyond oor ken," as my great-granny used to say. Ligten up, folks; life's way too short to take things so seriously.

Besides, I'm just too Saggitarian to totally disbelieve.

;-)


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 03:53 PM

Bearheart, I hope you are still out there and will come back with some interesting stats on we who chose to participate. I know you've been really busy with life, so it's okay if you're not ready.

I found this quote today and thought of this thread. It is a paraphrased from a quote by Joan Wester Anderson:

To those who are willing to believe, no explanation of these events is necessary...and to those who are not willing to believe, no explanation is possible.

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 04:03 PM

I don't want to believe in astrology because the only person (in my entire life!) I had an ugly confrontation with, had the same birthday as mine!


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Katcina
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 12:17 PM

Such a very curious thread I happened upon. I've found it most interesting and did go to the trouble of visiting Bearheart's site. Heightened my curious mind on matters that I already practice and indulge in.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Pondering It All
Date: 10 Feb 01 - 02:17 PM

I have been to their web site and read all that is there to offer but I am still left with the thought or curiosity as it may be that they do not really exist. I have submitted my information and had no response what so ever and also can find no posting of their results of the so called study that was being conducted. This leaves many questions in my mind.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Feb 01 - 04:03 PM

One of them is finishing up school and the other splits her time between visiting at school and, many hours away, running the home and business. I know she just got done with some on-site intensive classes with a good number of students.

She told me she'd be *swamped* until after the middle of February. Also, I think she was hoping to receive input from more Mudcatters in order to have more data to analyse.

I am sure she will be back as soon as she is able.

kat


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 01:16 PM

Was any of the information Bearheart was to have compiled ever given in the Forum?


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Jim Krause
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 11:16 AM

I don't think so. I bit and perhaps should not have given so much personal information out. I rather wonder if it wasn't some sort of an attempt to use the Mudcat for nonmusical advertising purposes.


Jim


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 11:17 AM

Well, I guess it was timely that I should check the Mudcat today-- been out of town much of the summer and not much free time when I'm here.

A while back, I emailed kat about resusitating this thread, but discovered she was inthe midst of moving and other trials and was not really available for comment.

Here is an update:

Due to urgency of other projects I put this project on hold in late winter/spring 2001. Did some work on it in the summer but lost my computer and my astrology program in June. Did not get computerized again till August due to cash flow problems. did not get astrology program in place till till early September. Like most people was struggling with the aftermath of 9/11 for the next few months. Also I had lost all my data, and had to comb through this thread to retrieve all the data I had accumulated (I have still not found the file with the charts that I printed off). I re-did all the charts and printed matter this spring/early summer and have been colating info.

Found that I could use more participants since many of the folks that sent me info do not have verifiable accurate birth times. That makes their data less useful for the project.

Hope this brings things up to date for folks. I have been hesitant to bring this all up again since it stirred up so much controversy, but I would like to progress on this project and currently I have fewer than 50 charts (even using other data sources than mudcat) that can actually be used for the study. I don't feel this is a satisfactory sample. So maybe interested people will contact me or know others not on this forum who ould participate?

Thanks!

Bekki


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: dorareever
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 11:56 AM

I alredy know my chart birthchart,but maybe I will send you my data for helping you in you research.I love astrology,I don't like the way it's usually misunderstood.


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: dorareever
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM

Bekki,I can't PM you,don't know why...maybe I do something wrong,never PM anyone before...can you PM me and maybe I'll reply? I replied before,so I can do it ;) I'm *very* interested in this project.

Chiara


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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,Marie
Date: 28 Aug 02 - 03:16 PM

To Katlaughing (referring to your post on the 19/08/00) and others...

Did you know?!...

According to that song "This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius" well, it seems we are already into it !!! Since the 20th January 1998 !... According to my book of Ephemerides: where we can see that this alignement of Jupiter and Mars talked about in the song occurs precisely in the sign of Aquarius !!! (Well, that was just for the anecdote !)


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Subject: RE: BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 18 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM

Dorareever, check your PMs, I have responded. Been out of town, etc for much of the last few weeks, sorry for the delay.

Bekki


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Subject: RE: BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Pennny
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM

Start anew_this is way long


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Subject: RE: BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Sibelius
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 05:22 PM

You're still collecting stats then, Bearheart?

Date 17th Jan 65 Time 07.20GMT Lat 53:26N Long 2:08W

I had this all done once, and I think it gives me Mercury, Venus and Asc in close conjunction in Capricorn, with Sun in Cap opposing Moon in Cancer. Dunno about the houses.

Music-wise: started playing guitar at 17, moderate singer at best, have dabbled in lots of other instruments but guitar still the main one. Occasional songwriter. Have played semi-professionally but not for a few years. Trad English and Irish (I like turning tunes into guitar solos - sounds self-indulgent, but I promise you I wait my turn in sessions!) US country and country rock.

That the sort of thing you want?


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Subject: RE: BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 05:54 PM

i reckon astrology is the biggest load of shit i have ever heard off.john


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Subject: RE: BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 06:00 PM

LOL! Well said, John


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Subject: RE: BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 06:10 PM

thaks Gest.john


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Subject: RE: BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 06:20 PM

PLEASE POST TO NEW THREAD:
CLICK HERE


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