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BS: Explaining the Unexplained

CarolC 21 Aug 00 - 01:34 AM
Brendy 21 Aug 00 - 01:38 AM
hesperis 21 Aug 00 - 01:47 AM
Mark Clark 21 Aug 00 - 02:05 AM
CarolC 21 Aug 00 - 06:48 AM
RichM 21 Aug 00 - 06:49 AM
Little Hawk 21 Aug 00 - 12:51 PM
Mbo 21 Aug 00 - 12:53 PM
MMario 21 Aug 00 - 12:58 PM
Little Hawk 21 Aug 00 - 12:58 PM
Ebbie 21 Aug 00 - 01:22 PM
DougR 21 Aug 00 - 01:43 PM
hesperis 21 Aug 00 - 01:56 PM
Gervase 21 Aug 00 - 02:18 PM
Ebbie 21 Aug 00 - 02:22 PM
SINSULL 21 Aug 00 - 02:43 PM
Kim C 21 Aug 00 - 03:35 PM
catspaw49 21 Aug 00 - 03:49 PM
Little Hawk 21 Aug 00 - 05:06 PM
KT 21 Aug 00 - 05:18 PM
Linda Kelly 21 Aug 00 - 06:26 PM
Bill D 21 Aug 00 - 06:34 PM
Cobble 21 Aug 00 - 07:23 PM
catspaw49 21 Aug 00 - 08:31 PM
GUEST, Banjo Johnny 21 Aug 00 - 08:36 PM
little john cameron 21 Aug 00 - 09:00 PM
Ebbie 21 Aug 00 - 09:46 PM
catspaw49 21 Aug 00 - 09:52 PM
Ebbie 21 Aug 00 - 10:08 PM
Escamillo 21 Aug 00 - 10:19 PM
catspaw49 21 Aug 00 - 10:24 PM
catspaw49 21 Aug 00 - 10:28 PM
MarkS 21 Aug 00 - 10:58 PM
CarolC 21 Aug 00 - 11:08 PM
Art Thieme 21 Aug 00 - 11:43 PM
catspaw49 21 Aug 00 - 11:52 PM
ol'troll 21 Aug 00 - 11:57 PM
Ebbie 22 Aug 00 - 12:30 AM
ol'troll 22 Aug 00 - 12:31 AM
Little Hawk 22 Aug 00 - 01:03 AM
catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 01:07 AM
Ebbie 22 Aug 00 - 01:22 AM
Escamillo 22 Aug 00 - 02:26 AM
KT 22 Aug 00 - 02:37 AM
Wolfgang 22 Aug 00 - 06:55 AM
ol'troll 22 Aug 00 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Colwyn Dane 22 Aug 00 - 08:30 AM
catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 09:10 AM
Jeri 22 Aug 00 - 09:12 AM
catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 10:32 AM
SINSULL 22 Aug 00 - 10:42 AM
SINSULL 22 Aug 00 - 11:13 AM
Little Hawk 22 Aug 00 - 11:34 AM
catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 12:30 PM
Little Hawk 22 Aug 00 - 12:34 PM
SINSULL 22 Aug 00 - 12:48 PM
SINSULL 22 Aug 00 - 12:50 PM
catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 12:54 PM
Kim C 22 Aug 00 - 01:01 PM
MMario 22 Aug 00 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Colwyn Dane 22 Aug 00 - 02:19 PM
Little Hawk 22 Aug 00 - 03:08 PM
Melani 22 Aug 00 - 03:36 PM
Bill D 22 Aug 00 - 06:48 PM
CarolC 22 Aug 00 - 07:04 PM
Mbo 22 Aug 00 - 07:06 PM
Sorcha 22 Aug 00 - 07:22 PM
Mbo 22 Aug 00 - 07:26 PM
hesperis 22 Aug 00 - 07:27 PM
Bill D 22 Aug 00 - 07:45 PM
catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 07:55 PM
hesperis 22 Aug 00 - 08:10 PM
Little Hawk 22 Aug 00 - 08:17 PM
Bill D 22 Aug 00 - 08:48 PM
CarolC 22 Aug 00 - 08:58 PM
hesperis 22 Aug 00 - 08:58 PM
catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 09:09 PM
CarolC 22 Aug 00 - 09:11 PM
Sorcha 22 Aug 00 - 09:15 PM
CarolC 22 Aug 00 - 09:21 PM
sophocleese 22 Aug 00 - 09:27 PM
SINSULL 22 Aug 00 - 09:29 PM
Ebbie 22 Aug 00 - 09:37 PM
Ebbie 22 Aug 00 - 09:41 PM
Brendy 22 Aug 00 - 09:51 PM
CarolC 22 Aug 00 - 09:51 PM
KT 22 Aug 00 - 10:08 PM
hesperis 22 Aug 00 - 10:14 PM
flattop 22 Aug 00 - 10:16 PM
Brendy 22 Aug 00 - 10:30 PM
flattop 22 Aug 00 - 10:31 PM
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catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 10:38 PM
Brendy 22 Aug 00 - 10:42 PM
Bill D 22 Aug 00 - 10:46 PM
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Bill D 22 Aug 00 - 10:56 PM
catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 11:07 PM
hesperis 22 Aug 00 - 11:13 PM
Helen 22 Aug 00 - 11:15 PM
catspaw49 22 Aug 00 - 11:17 PM
SINSULL 22 Aug 00 - 11:27 PM
GUEST, Banjo Johnny 23 Aug 00 - 12:00 AM
Melani 23 Aug 00 - 12:02 AM
catspaw49 23 Aug 00 - 12:02 AM
Escamillo 23 Aug 00 - 02:36 AM
CarolC 23 Aug 00 - 03:54 AM
Wolfgang 23 Aug 00 - 06:04 AM
flattop 23 Aug 00 - 08:21 AM
Skipjack K8 23 Aug 00 - 09:27 AM
sophocleese 23 Aug 00 - 10:36 AM
Skipjack K8 23 Aug 00 - 10:39 AM
Alice 23 Aug 00 - 11:14 AM
MMario 23 Aug 00 - 11:35 AM
SINSULL 23 Aug 00 - 01:25 PM
CarolC 23 Aug 00 - 05:06 PM
hesperis 23 Aug 00 - 06:46 PM
CarolC 23 Aug 00 - 06:52 PM
catspaw49 23 Aug 00 - 07:00 PM
hesperis 23 Aug 00 - 10:51 PM
Alice 24 Aug 00 - 12:25 AM
CarolC 24 Aug 00 - 01:28 AM
Wolfgang 24 Aug 00 - 04:24 AM
CarolC 24 Aug 00 - 04:30 AM
CarolC 24 Aug 00 - 04:43 AM
Alice 24 Aug 00 - 09:59 AM
SINSULL 24 Aug 00 - 10:59 AM
Skipjack K8 24 Aug 00 - 12:34 PM
CarolC 24 Aug 00 - 05:31 PM
Brendy 24 Aug 00 - 05:51 PM
Skipjack K8 24 Aug 00 - 07:44 PM
CarolC 24 Aug 00 - 10:12 PM
hesperis 25 Aug 00 - 01:23 AM
Brendy 25 Aug 00 - 01:49 AM
okthen 25 Aug 00 - 04:18 AM
Brendy 25 Aug 00 - 04:27 AM
Skipjack K8 25 Aug 00 - 04:55 AM
okthen 25 Aug 00 - 05:44 AM
Brendy 25 Aug 00 - 05:57 AM
Troll 25 Aug 00 - 08:00 AM
Helen 25 Aug 00 - 08:56 PM
CarolC 25 Aug 00 - 09:08 PM
Little Hawk 26 Aug 00 - 01:15 AM
Escamillo 26 Aug 00 - 01:29 AM
Little Hawk 26 Aug 00 - 02:20 AM
Helen 26 Aug 00 - 03:37 AM
sledge 26 Aug 00 - 05:03 AM
Escamillo 26 Aug 00 - 06:38 AM
okthen 26 Aug 00 - 03:27 PM
catspaw49 26 Aug 00 - 04:58 PM
Helen 26 Aug 00 - 07:33 PM
Little Hawk 26 Aug 00 - 10:13 PM
Escamillo 26 Aug 00 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,Helen (using IE) 27 Aug 00 - 07:10 PM
The Beanster 27 Aug 00 - 09:31 PM
Little Hawk 27 Aug 00 - 11:03 PM
Troll 27 Aug 00 - 11:14 PM
The Beanster 28 Aug 00 - 12:10 AM
Troll 28 Aug 00 - 12:38 AM
robroy 28 Aug 00 - 05:18 AM
Troll 28 Aug 00 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Crazy Eddie 28 Aug 00 - 09:07 AM
Little Hawk 28 Aug 00 - 02:56 PM
catspaw49 28 Aug 00 - 03:13 PM
JamesJim 29 Aug 00 - 01:20 AM
Wolfgang 29 Aug 00 - 10:00 AM
sophocleese 29 Aug 00 - 10:50 AM
CarolC 29 Aug 00 - 07:36 PM
Wolfgang 30 Aug 00 - 06:21 AM
CarolC 30 Aug 00 - 04:02 PM
Little Hawk 30 Aug 00 - 05:37 PM
The Beanster 30 Aug 00 - 09:06 PM
Sourdough 30 Aug 00 - 09:39 PM
katlaughing 30 Aug 00 - 10:41 PM
Helen 30 Aug 00 - 10:51 PM
kendall 31 Aug 00 - 05:50 AM
CarolC 31 Aug 00 - 07:22 AM
Wolfgang 31 Aug 00 - 11:59 AM
The Beanster 31 Aug 00 - 09:31 PM
Little Hawk 31 Aug 00 - 10:31 PM
katlaughing 01 Sep 00 - 12:54 AM
Wolfgang 01 Sep 00 - 08:16 AM
Helen 02 Sep 00 - 07:33 PM
little john cameron 02 Sep 00 - 08:07 PM
little john cameron 02 Sep 00 - 08:20 PM
katlaughing 02 Sep 00 - 09:59 PM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 00 - 10:09 PM
Escamillo 02 Sep 00 - 10:44 PM
Metchosin 02 Sep 00 - 11:26 PM
katlaughing 03 Sep 00 - 12:50 AM
hesperis 03 Sep 00 - 02:03 AM
Escamillo 03 Sep 00 - 02:40 AM
hesperis 03 Sep 00 - 03:21 AM
Sourdough 03 Sep 00 - 03:22 AM
hesperis 03 Sep 00 - 03:33 AM
Alice 03 Sep 00 - 11:15 AM
Sourdough 03 Sep 00 - 01:06 PM
Alice 03 Sep 00 - 01:39 PM
Sourdough 03 Sep 00 - 02:29 PM
hesperis 03 Sep 00 - 03:36 PM
Ebbie 03 Sep 00 - 05:28 PM
Helen 03 Sep 00 - 06:23 PM
Metchosin 03 Sep 00 - 06:50 PM
Helen 04 Sep 00 - 05:53 PM
Helen 04 Sep 00 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,visitor 06 Sep 00 - 12:53 AM

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Subject: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 01:34 AM

Escamillo has requested a thread called "Explaining the Unexplained". He is particularly interested in Spaw's explanation of the cause of auras, but I think he would be happy to hear anyone's explanation of whatever is unexplained at this time. Anyone?.....anyone?......


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 01:38 AM

Oh dear!!!

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 01:47 AM

Where do callouses go when they die?
Is there a heaven for the callouses that stay on a guitar player's fingers until the player dies, and a hell for the 'bad' callouses who didn't practice enough, and just faded away?

Or do they just get reborn?
(They don't seem to remember their past lives though. At least, mine don't.)
hesperis (with her tongue stuck firmly in side of cheek, and blowing cooler air on her aching fingers.)
I'll be serious in the morning.


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Subject: BS: Where Do Socks Go?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 02:05 AM

A man I knew here in town, Rick Plummer, has answered the question: where do socks go? Nearly everyone has experience the loss of a single sock while doing laundry. The missing sock is never seen again. You may also be familiar with the old theory that wire coat hangers mate and reproduce in your closet when no one is watching. After a great deal of research, Mr. Plummer discovered why the socks disappear. It turns out socks are the larval form of wire coat hangers.

So now you know the rest of the story.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:48 AM

This is why I like piano accordions. You can play melody. You can play chords. You can play melody and chords together. You can play with other people, or alone. It's fun either way.

You can feel the sound that the instrument makes as it passes through your hands and fingers. The sound feels mighty. You can feel the sound as it vibrates in your ears. It is rich and full and it makes my ears feel good.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: RichM
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:49 AM

There was a science fiction short story written in the sixties(?)about bicycles being an alien life form.
Reproduction took place in stages--like an insect--changing from safety pin, to coat hangar to bicycle. I would love to read this story again.
Any sci-fi fans in Mudcat that might remember this story?

Rich


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:51 PM

If one were to explain the unexplained then it would no longer be the unexplained. This could be a real letdown, and might bring a premature end to all kinds of thriving mini-industries. The continuing growth of the capitalist mega-monster requires the survival of the unexplained. For God's sake, stop now before it's TOO LATE!!!!

Doo-doo, doo-doo, doo-doo, doo-doo (twilight zone music).


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:53 PM

Not sure Rich, but I remember Jan C. Snow's essay on how Orange Barrells that you see near road construction, are actually alien life forms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: MMario
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:58 PM

Paper clip (the egg cluster)to coat hanger (larval form)to bicycle.(reproductive phase). a favorite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:58 PM

I heard a rumour that Republicans are life forms too. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 01:22 PM

OK- I'll go first. You guys do the explaining, however.

Two days after a friend unexpectedly died, another friend and I were walking along, talking about him. At a certain point, she said, "Ebbie", look up there- what do you see?

I looked up into the sky, not many degrees above the horizon. I said, Yeah, looks like an E- an a- an r- an l!!

In an otherwise cloudless sky was a band of clouds that formed our friend's name. (The only other place there were any clouds was right above the setting sun, way off to the west)It was completely stable and clearer than the old Drink Pepsi-Cola! smoke ads, if you're old enough to remember them.

We were not nearly as astonished and disbelieving then as we are now- mainly it made us laugh tearfully at Earl's 'goodbye'. Now, three years later, the implications boggle my mind.

So, everybody, if you can explain this to me I would welcome it.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: DougR
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 01:43 PM

What you two drinking at the time, Ebbie? :>) And I do remember those cloud-like signs you refer to. DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 01:56 PM

There are too many coincidences for it to be 'just coincidence'


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 02:18 PM

Well, it all comes down to Flann O'Brien and the theory of melocular interchange - at least, where it applies to bicycles.
The short answer is, don't stand still in one place for too long, lest you become assimilated(sp?).
(cf: The Third Policeman - one of the funniest books ever written in the English language)
Failing that; just try to get a bus in London. Now THERE"S unexplained for you...


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 02:22 PM

Nope. No drink. And there were only enough clouds to make the letters. My friend said later that she had seen it a few minutes before she called my attention to it. She says she was so relieved that I could also see it. Now, of course, I wonder if anyone else in town saw it!

Previous to this, like everyone else I had "seen" shapes in the clouds, i.e. rabbits, ships, dogs, whatever but never had I seen even a letter much less a word with all the letters in the right order and even less the name of someone who was on my mind.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 02:43 PM

No big deal. Earl was saying goodbye. Clever man. Weren't you lucky to know him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 03:35 PM

I don't know that I've ever seen what could be called a ghost but I've sensed a lot of things. I said before in another thread that according to the first law of thermodynamics, energy cannot be increased or decreased, it simply changes form. So that would mean that there's all kinds of energies floating around us. (auras?) Some people feel them, some people don't. So maybe there is a scientific explanation for ghosties after all.

Mister said that when he was a boy, and his grandfather died, he saw him. Came to his bedroom and stood there by the bed and looked at him for a minute, and he was gone. An old college roommate said the same thing about her grampy, too. Another friend told me of his friend, a man who died not from cancer, but from the experimental treatment. He and his wife both saw this man after they buried him. Maybe when people don't get to say goodbye, they come back and tell you.

There's a lot of folk songs about that sort of thing, so there must be something to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 03:49 PM

"auras?" I said something about that?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 05:06 PM

Well, I guess I might as well tell my dad's story...

He was a soldier in WWII, fighting on the western front. He said that he saw a number of friends shot and killed right in front of him, while engaging in firefights with the Germans, who fought like hell. Only the complete Allied air supremacy made it possible to defeat them on the field of battle, generally speaking.

At any rate, he said that when these friends of his died, he could see their souls leaving their bodies. I said, "What do you mean exactly? What did it look like?" He said, "Well, it looked like mist or steam rising, but in the exact form and facial expressions of the man who had just died." "So then what happened?" I asked. "It just passed away like mist," he said. "Anyway, I was too busy keeping myself alive to pay it more than a second or two of notice."

Now, the really weird thing is that despite those experiences (or maybe because of them), my dad has shown absolutely no interest in spiritual phenomena for the last 5 decades! He's a workaholic businessman (still going strong) who is entirely uninterested in anything except business, science, and technology! Go figure.

His single-minded obsession with material things and material success is partly what has driven me to explore more esoteric subjects...in reaction.

He doesn't deny his war experiences now, but he seems uninclined to draw any further conclusions from them.

One other thing happened to my dad which lay entirely outside his usual notions. A few years ago his brother died. They had never liked each other, but my dad was executor of the will. About 6 weeks after Uncle Harry died, my dad was driving alone in his van to Toronto. He suddenly became aware that he was not alone, looked to the right, and saw Harry sitting in the passenger seat clear as day. "What the hell are you doing here?" my dad exclaimed. "What's happening with the money," snapped Harry. "Is the money flowing to my children?" (Just the sort of thing Harry would say...)

"The money isn't going anywhere right now, because it's all tied up with the damned lawyers," retorted my father, more or less beyond astonishmen at this point. Harry glared at him for a second or two, then vanished.

postscript: The money did eventually flow to Harry's children. My father does not drink or take any drugs. He is still utterly earthbound in his general attitude, determinedly scientific and logical in his general outlook (he's a professional engineer with an M.A. and a Ph.D. in thermodynamics). He is not given to having hallucinations (unless you count the army experience and Uncle Harry). He accepts the fact that those were real experiences, but prefers not to dwell on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: KT
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 05:18 PM

Little Hawk, this is fascinating. One would think that given his experiences, he would be more drawn toward things spiritual. And yet you have indicated, that is not the case. I'm wondering if you've ever asked him why....

I know of another case where someone had a profound experience most people will never have, and like your father, just doesn't go there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:26 PM

Time for my Hampton court story- many years ago when i lived with my parents I came into the lving room and saw quite clearly on the TV a news reporter and a fire engine standing in front of a building which I recognised as Hampton Court Palace- as I was in a hurry I thought no more about it and went to stay with a friend. It was a bank holiday saturday. On the Monday morning I turned the radio on and they were still talking about the fire and the poor woman who died. I made a passing comment to my friend as to how this was old news. Rubbish she replied it had happended in the early hours of the Monday morning. I did not beleive her clearly having seen it reported two days earlier and had to phone my father for verification. Spooky or what. It has happened several times since but not for many years. I have had a couple of unexplained experiences but have not seen a ghost although many of my entirely sane friends have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:34 PM

if, after I'm gone, I discover I have some influence over clouds in the sky, I hope I will find something cleverer than my name to write...*smile*..like "Weathers fine...wish you were here", or "Kilroy IS here"

it sure is the case that some experiences DO remain unexplained...and I sort of like Little Hawk's first idea,,,that remaining unexplained may be best for some.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Cobble
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 07:23 PM

Many things are beyond what we think of as normal,in 1995 my mother died. Father told me on different occasion's that he had seen mother appear to him, but he could not see her face, it was blurd. Until the third os forth time, the last time when he could see her face clearly, in his own word," she was wearing clothes he had never seen her wear in life. She looked so young and beautiful". I belive this was the last time she appeared to him. Then one day he went into the bathroom and there was the most fragrant smell of flower's, which vanished after he went out to get a towel and returned. To put my part in this story, three days before my father died last November, I was going out of my back gate, when I smelled the most beautiful smell of flower's, on a wet dull November day? All I can think of is my mother came to tell me it was dad's time to go. the day was picked well because he loved to talk about his service in the army. The date 11/11/99, many years before armistice day. RIP dad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 08:31 PM

Ya know Bill, its funny you should mention leaving things unexplained...............I asked Cletus if he had any experience along these lines and he said the only aura he knew about was the one surrounding Paw most of the time. Kind of a mixture of sulphur and sewer gas. But then that got me to remembering how Paw and Cletus had shot Buford and gave him that eulogy and all, then he turned out not to be dead since his backpack was full of a 12 pack and absorbed the blast. Since he was just knocked out and drunk instead of shot dead, its good that Paw and Cletus didn't bury him.......But I tell you the truth, when that ol' boy showed up alive, it damn near killed Paw instead. That reunion led to a joyous evening of the three of them and the Reg boys getting drunk on "Iron City" and 'Shine and roasting a hog out in my backyard alongside the garage. Of course, after a while, Paw started lighting up farts as is his wont and that's what I came to think about ought to be left unexplained.

The neighbors began to complain about 11 o'clock or so after one of Paw's flamers had ignited the hedge on his property. That would have passed as the boys got it out pretty quick, being full of Iron City and all, but when a major rip set fire to his wife's bird feeder....well, that was it. I tried to calm the guy down and assured him nothing like that would happen again. He went back into his house dragging the charred remains of the feeder and a roasted squirrel that had been looting it when Paw let fly with that fiery thundersprecht.

Anyway, I got them situated again and since my house has aluminum siding, my only request was that they point Paw towards the wall. I figured a good hosing would clean off the worst of it in the morning. I went inside and the revelry continued at a somewhat decreased decibel level with only an occasional flash lighting the window of my den. Around 2 AM the boys came in for a final pee call and of course they couldn't just go. I heard either Reg or Reg in my pantry and before I could get up there, the whole crew was playing sink the Cheerios in my downstairs bathroom. Karen came downstairs at this point and threw a fit since our kids watch everything the boys do and we were spending a fortune in Cheerios. After a severe ass-reaming from Karen, I herded them back outside and suggested they get some sleep around the smouldering pig carcass. I went back in and after cleaning and disinfecting the bathroom and taking a shower, I again settled down in front of the TV to watch a half-hour Infomercial on how I could make thousands a week by selling quinnine pills through Direct Mail Order and running tiny little ads.

They were just getting to the good part with the testimonials and all when there was this giant blast from the backyard and the night sky lit up like a Buddhist monk. There was a moment of silence and then I heard Cletus yell, "HOLY SHEET!!!" Well, there wasn't anyway I could avoid it, so I went out through the garage into the backyard and there they stood, the whole damn bunch of them, except for Buford who was throwing up Iron City and pork fat down his bib overalls over by the smoking hedge. They were staring at an image that Paw's last fart had scorched onto the siding with their mouths hanging open. I stepped back and looked and my first thought was, "Well this ain't gonna' clean off too good and Karen will be really pissed." But when I started to say something Cletus stopped me and I noticed that the look on all of their faces was almost reverent. Paw was standing with his mouth agape and the others seemed awestruck as well, so I looked again.

Cletus turned to me and said, "Doncha seez it Catspaw? Its rite thar!!! Paw done farted Jerry Falwell out his ass!!!" Well, I kinda' had to admit, it DID resemble him in the flickering light of the burning porker on the spit, but I was too much in fear of what the morning would bring from Karen to say anymore than tell them to get some sleep. Problem was, they didn't. I went back inside, the group outside quieted down, and I nodded off before I could get the 800 number for the "501 All-Time Polka Greats" by Myron Kopetz and the Nose Flute Kings.

What I didn't know was that the group had gone off and gotten Pastor Sharphorn, his wife, the Ladies Auxillary, and the Deacons, from the "Church of Evangelical Brethren and Tongue Talking Mohunkers" and they arrived for a look-see about sun-up. When I woke up to the commotion outside it was about 6 AM I guess. The sight that confronted me was reasonably bizarre. At least 150 people were assembled in the backyard and I could see more coming down the alley. A small altar had been erected out of the remains of my stockade fence which was now on the ground, the crowd overflowing into my neighbor's backyard and trampling his stupid-ass garden gnomes into powder....it was the only high spot of the day. Those kneeling at the altar would place small plastic Madonnas and Jesus statuary at the foot of the garage wall and say a little prayer and move on to the donation box that Cletus was guarding. It was then that I noticed that everyone donating more than $25. was getting a "Holy Relic" to commemorate their visit to this newest religious icon which had previously only sheltered my vehicles and assorted cans of dried out wax and rubbing compound.

There, perched upon a throne like affair that I noticed had been assembled from our porch furniture, was Paw. As each person gave his donation, Buford would cut a small piece from Paw's overalls and hand it to them. For $50. they got a piece from the seat, and for $500. a snippet from the flap of his longjohns. It was a kind of poor man's "Shroud of Turin" I guess. Business must have been good since Paw was missing one entire leg of his bibs and he was about bareassed already. I was dumbfounded and I was just considering how to set this up as an infomercial and start booking tours when the County Sheriff showed up and ran everybody off. Then he proceeded to fine me for 19 different offenses and gave me a summons to appear in court for destruction of my neighbors property.

I was able to head off Cletus and the money, which covered almost all of the fines and my neighbor's friggin' gnomes, but it cost another 50 bucks to get rid of Falwell. Now if I could just get shed of the real one for the same price.......................Anyway, I have never been able to figure out how that happened and I suppose it is one of those things best left unexplained. I've always thought that Falwell was talking out his ass, but I never figured you could blow him out your ass, but Paw's a reall religious ol' coot so I guess you just never know. Really, I think Cletus had it right with his first two words, "Holy Shit!!"

Spaw
P.S.-- Just for you Andres my friend!


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 08:36 PM

For Carol C -- if she's still reading this thread.

Don't forget: not only can you play melody and chords, but you can also play bass. You can play melody, chords and bass, plus you can sing along. PLUS you can carry it around while you play and sing, and you never have to plug it in. What other instrument gives you so much in one beautiful box?

Another accordion joke: There is a very thin line between "accordion playing" and "mental illness".

== Johnny in OKC


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: little john cameron
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 09:00 PM

Great stuff Spaw,ye're jist as nuts as me. LJC


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 09:46 PM

Spaw, what are you afraid of? (*;*) Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 09:52 PM

Ya lost me there Ebbie.......then again, I'm not too bright. Sorry that I miss it!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 10:08 PM

LOL, Spaw. I was just trying- so subtly- to imply that someone who feels compelled to go into a comedic routine when a subject with which he's not comfortable is raised is evading it. Just standard psychobabble.

And then I feared that I had gone too far- but I didn't think I had because when poke comes to push your comfort range of topics is very broad, and we're all aware of that. (Too broad for me sometimes. Yuck!!) So please ignore the pinprick. :~)

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 10:19 PM

Spaw!!! Guess what my very concerned wife Graciela told me just two minutes ago ? "Andrés, are you OK ? You're gonna suffocate up yourself !"

Oh.. how I needed to ROTFLMAOOOOOOO!!! Your novel is now being saved to my library along with Truman Capote's works. I knew you was going to catch the idea.. it was necessary, after two serious threads about unexplained crop circles and astrology services offered.

If I had the talent for writing, I would talk about the Close Encounters of the Fifth class, but I'll leave it for the real talents of the Mudcat !

Un abrazo graaaaaaandee - Andrés


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 10:24 PM

Thanks Ebbie......I'm a bit of a dolt. Fearful? Certainly. Uncomfortable with the subject matter? Nah, just that I see humor in everything. Sitting at lunch one day with a group of other teachers and administrators, one of them turned to me and said, "You are the most irreverent person I have ever met." I said "Thanks."

Its no secret here that I am truly agnostic. I find both sides lacking in factual matter and both require an element of faith which I am unwilling to supply. But I've been asked a lot, "Don't you want to know? Doesn't it bother you?" To that, I think Gordon Liddy had the best answer, but he wasn't speaking of religion or the supernatural. When asked what the trick was in being able to hold his hand over a candle til the flesh burned, he replied, "The trick....is not minding." And that is exactly how I feel.

I believe in the power of good thoughts no matter from where they come. I believe in the power of music, art, and literature to transport us to places we have never been before and may never go to again. I believe their is a "chaotic organization" to the universe and to time that will always be beyond our limited capacities to understand. And I believe in the power of humor to keep me from ever caring that so much will always be unknown.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 10:28 PM

Hey Andres my friend.....I'm glad to occupy a place by ol Truman. I've been a little off form of late and haven't reacted to some of the threads as I used to, but your new buddy Carol stuck a prod in me and I'm glad she did because I enjoyed it maybe more than you did.

I think I'm a frustrated writer........a bad writer, but in the Jean Shephard vein anyway.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: MarkS
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 10:58 PM

RichM - I think the story you refer to was written in the 50s by Clifford Simak. I probably have it tucked away somewhere so give me a day or two to look through the old boxes and if I find it I will post it.
MarkS


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 11:08 PM

Banjo Johnny.

Ahhh. So nice to find a friend in a world full of accordion haters.

Best regards,

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 11:43 PM

When my father was quite old---97---he started walking in his sleep and going for nocturnal journeys all over town. The first time the police brought him home they had extremely perturbed looks on their faces. They didn't know how to begin telling us what had gone down. Eventually they calmed down enough to tell us that pop had been talking in his sleep about having had sexual relations with a ghost. We had a huge laugh over that one. When the police didn't seem to think it was funny (one of 'em was white as a sheet) we all stopped laughing. When it happened again and again and then another time we dicided something had to be done about it. He'd even wander over to the town next to us -- about 4 miles away. Sometimes the police would just let him walk and usually he would get back home before dawn. There were people all over town, indeed our county, who he'd told the story of his sexual encounter with a ghost and how great it was. The strangest thing of all was that dad never ever talked about this when he was awake---only when he was asleep and walking around the shuttered town. He even walked right into strange homes spewing about the great ghost sex he was having. People knew he was harmless so it became a fun thing to have him stop by---even was thought to bring good luck.

One Sunday we all went to church and dad was his old jovial self and wide awake. We had a guest preacher doing the sermon that week and I guess he had heard of my dad's night wanderings and his strange pronouncements. I think the damn guy had a Robin Williams streak in him 'cause right in the middle of the Sunday sermon he bellowed out, "Is there anyone here today who can honestly say he has had sexual relations with a ghost?" Well, it was so quiet in the church you could hear a pin drop. My father's arm (and hand) shot upward faster than an arrow shot from a bow and the incredulous pastor stammered, "Neil, for the love of God, are you telling all of us here and now that those stories you tell everone at night when you are sound asleep and wandering all over the place that you truly believe you had relations with a ghost?" "So sorry", said dad. "I thought you said goat!"

Now, you explain that !!!! I sure can't.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 11:52 PM

Shaping up as one helluva' thread ain't it?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: ol'troll
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 11:57 PM

Spaw, you write the funny stuff 'cause yer a smartass.I admire that.

CarolC, What is the difference between a banjo and an accordion?

The accordion is pre-pleated for easier cutting.

Explain the unexplained? I can't explain why they won't let me have a pair of sissors in here. How do they expect me to cut out the bad jokes?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:30 AM

I'm not talking about agnosticism, Spaw. I respect that view. I agree that we simply don't know quite a lot of things- and I'm frightened of people who are terribly sure about anything.

I am talking about anecdotal evidence, people's reported experiences. As an instance, science says "Hallucinations of seeing/hearing/feeling a departed spouse are commonly reported." Well, if it's that commonly reported,perhaps science might entertain the notion that just possibly it's not a hallucination at all.

The flippant dismissal of such reports is just a tad disrespectful to the persons reporting it, in my opinion.

And I truly am not attacking you- how many pekinese does it take to hurt a lion? When you are talking on a subject, I listen- and at the same time you make me laugh more than anyone else ever has, I think. I enjoy humor as much as the next one and the jarring retort that catches me off guard is often hilarious.

I would welcome a PM from you if you want to cut off my nose. I doubt that you need defending from me but I have gotten one PM already asking me to lay off.

Sincerely, Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: ol'troll
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:31 AM

Little Hawk: Republicans are what Democrats become when they mature. (evil chuckle)

troll

You didn't really think I could pass up a straight line like that, did you? LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:03 AM

ol'troll - LOL! Excellent comeback!

Spaw - you are one very funny guy. LOL likewise. Your story may be destined to become a classic. Hopefully it will be offered in some college courses soon, and be analyzed to absolute futility in the hallowed halls of "learning".

A great thread indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:07 AM

Ebbie my firend, NEVER lay off me and I feel you are far more than a Pekingnese and I far less than a lion. Your point on anecdototal evidence is well taken and I hope I didn't give the impression that I was giving short shrift to the stories. I have had far too many strange occurances in my own life to disregard anything as impossible and they become part of my "chaotic organization" theory. I think there are tings that go bump in the night which are worthy of deeper investigation whether or not a definitive answer is ever attainable.

My son Tristan was born with significant delays and elements of mental retardation. The chances of his even being close to functional were low; so low in fact, the attending doctor would not release him to us from the hospital until she was sure we knew all the facts and the adoption agency had told us all the background genetic details. We have been very lucky that he has progressed as well as he has. About a year and a half later, our other son, Michael, came to us as a foster baby and after working hard to reunite him with his birth mother, we applied for permanent custody and were able to adopt him a few months later. All this background is prologue to this.........Tris will require someone to always be there for him even after Karen and I are gone. That's not why we adopted Michael, but the responsibility will fall to him and even now he is taking on the job at age 7. Now are you ready for the strange part?

When we were going through Michael's file as the law requires, a cold chill went through both Karen and I. We had been in court completing Tristan's adoption before the judge between 2:00PM and 2:30PM on November 25, 1992. Michael was born a few blocks away at 2:15PM on November 25, 1992. Strange coincidence isn't it?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:22 AM

Thank you, Spaw. (And congratulations to your son on his latest achievement! On another thread I read about the new est development with his bike. Lovely.)

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Escamillo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:26 AM

A piece of Art from Art ! LOL !! Thanks Art Thieme !

As I was inspiring Carol to start this thread, (I'm the guilty) I wish to point out that the purpose was purely humorous. There are two other threads still running (on Crop Circles and Astrology) which host interesting and serious discussions about unexplained things. When I noticed that some humorous posts were popping up here and there in those threads, I suggested another thread, just for fun, especially to see how Spaw would explain misterious phenomena !

But I see that some Mudcatters are posting serious subjects, and I beg them to not feel offended or uncomfortable! If this thread becomes a serious discussion that's ok for me and (I guess) for all, but please don't see the funny stuff as out of topic. :)

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: KT
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:37 AM

Spaw, that's a wonderful, heart warming story about Tristan and Michael. It speaks of the interconnectedness (is that a word?) that is so much a part of life but which is so often inexplicable. We don't need all the answers, do we, but I keep lookin' for 'em! Thanks for sharing it with us, Spaw. KT


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 06:55 AM

I also have a story to share:
About 15 years ago two professors and an assistant professor (me) were sitting in a restaurant at Constance University and talking about many things. Then the older of the two professors talked about his doctoral dissertation way back in 1954 and how the oral examination had to be postponed because professor B. who was scheduled to examine him had shot himself in his office. He told with vivid detail about his own emotions as the secretary came out to tell him and how he was shattered and that he had to choose another examiner.
Then the other professor said. "You must have mixed up the date, for B. shot himself in 1955." "No, no, I'm completely sure. You see, that's not a minor detail of my life. I just know when I made the examination and that it had to be postponed because of the suicide". They made a wager with me being the uninterested third party. I volunteered to go into the library and came back with a xerox of the obituary. It said 1955. The older professor was visibly shattered and refused to believe the obituary ('they make mistakes in obituaries, you know'). A part of his recollection of his own life was demonstratably wrong and it was not a minor part. It was so filled with emotions that he just couldn't believe he was wrong. He refused to pay for the wager on the spot. He payed months later without any comment at that time. He told much later he had checked several other obituaries (B. was famous enough to have several) and had checked the old records of his university to find that he made his dissertation in 1954 about one year before the death of B. Nevertheless, his recollection of what he had told us was still as vivid as ever though he accepted now it was wrong.
The cases in which the recollection of a story can be checked against reality (like in the above case) are obviously very rare. When it has been done (scientists have tried that with ghost or similar stories since at least 1884) it often has been found that memories were not only in minor details wrong. Wrong memories can easily be induced in laboratories and in real life experiments. Since I do among other things research about illusions of memory I could tell you easily of more experiments or investigations showing wrong memories than you can tell me stories. For a bit more of my opinion you could read the last bit of my post in the crop circles thread.
From my point of view, you should have a bit less confidence in your recollections than you seem to have.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: ol'troll
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 07:40 AM

In WW2 my father was stationed in India and Burma. One day the choice of leading a patrol was between him and another captain so they cut cards. Dad cut the queen of diamonds. The other officer led the patrol which was ambushed and wiped out. Dad kept the card and put it in a scrapbook with other mementos and photos of the war.

My father died in 1994 and in the seven years proir to his death he bedridden. His main activities were reading his Bible, watching westerns on tv and playing solitare.

The last time I saw him alive, he was playing and talking to those of us in the room.

"I need a queen" he said,"and here she is; the queen of diamonds. My lucky card."

Those were the last words he ever spoke. He slipped into a coma from which he never awoke.

Mom had both cards buried with him.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 08:30 AM

G'day,

Ebbie regarding the name in the clouds - I have a book
which includes a set of photographs taken at intervals;
they show the progressive disintegration of a cumulus cloud
which was the target for a demonstation of psychokinesis by Rolf Alexander M.D.
He willed the cloud to disintegrate and vanish. Over 500 successful demonstrations of this kind have been given.

Keeping to the cloudy subject: Wilhem Reich developed a 'cloud-burster'
- a piece of equipment which when pointed at a cloud, apparently,
enlarged it so much that it started to rain.
Rain was brought to a desert area using this method,
and a blizzard was created covering the North-East coast of the US.

Clouds appear to be quite pliable to the thoughts of 'Man'.

Toodle-pip


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:10 AM

Wolfgang, you're correct. Memory is quite fallible. Cletus reminded me today that they were drinking Falls City and not Iron City, 'cause Buford never threw up on Iron City.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:12 AM

...and my uncle and a couple of friends once created a small, low cloud, and drove around town following its progress, waiting for it to rain.

There is something in the human personality that can't stand an unsolved mystery. I'm quite comfortable saying "I don't know why that happened," although my imagination prevents me from at least trying to figure it out.

My mother was once doing a crossword puzzle in one of those spiral books of puzzles. She reached to get her coffee cup, took a drink, and when she went back to the puzzle book, it wasn't there. We eventually found it in back of a bookcase about 8 feet to her left front (about her 10 o'clock position). Now, somehow, this thing had made it from her lap, sideways and over or through a 7' high bookcase filled with books and slid down the back without making a noticeable sound. Either it was phreak physics, or the poor thing was trying to hide and transported itself through solid matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:32 AM

Uh, Colwyn........Just where is this cloud burster gizmo? No offense there pardner, but it seems to me if it was such a great thing and could do what you say, they could use one out in the western United States right now. Or is it in the same storage facility as the "Fish Carburetor?"

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:42 AM

I have had numerous experiences with ghosts, psychokinesis, premonitions, odd phone incidences, face to face meetings with dead people,etc. I too prefer not to spend time on it. It has served me well in raising my son - I always know when he is hurt or in trouble sometimes before it even happens. Women, especially mothers, seem to make better use of this "intuition". I am NOT superstitious just aware that there are things and skills we don't fully understand.

Cletus and Paw were going to be invited to see the "Big City" over the Christmas holidays. I thought they might benefit from exposure to a degree of sophistication and daily baths. I even tried to fix Cletus up with my niece (much to Mbo's distress) but Cletus chose not to respond. I believe he has a secret love he has been keeping all to himself. This latest "Jery Falwell Affair" has made me change my mind. The new archbishop might take offense at Paw's antics by the offering candles in St. Pat's.

Michael was born and Tristan was adopted over Thanksgiving. That bodes well. The two of them have made many people here very happy. Somehow I believe Michael will have all the help he needs should the time come that he takes over care of Tristan. His mother's good sense and his father's sense of the absurd will see him through.

I have no faith in the experts. They objected to my adoption of my son Lawrence because they felt my expectations of his abilities were unrealistic. He was written off as retarded. He would never learn to read or do simple math. At age eight he sat on my lap and did simple algebra problems. Love and faith in him worked. He graduated high school with a NYS diploma - I was the only one who wasn't surprised. He has severe emotional problems - 9 years of foster care saw to that. But I know he will be fine. I KNOW. Life is so simple when you let it be what it is supposed to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:13 AM

Please note: At 9:05 AM I told you all that Pete Seeger left his banjo on the roof of his car and it fell on the side of the road. Mystifying (even though it was found by the side of the road). I am more mystified by the number of people who say Pete Who?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:34 AM

Wolfgang - my own faulty memory has already caused me to misquote you outrageously to a number of people. This has resulted in you being slandered far and wide by people who really should know better, and it's all due to my unfortunate laspses in memory. I think this goes a long way toward validating your well-articulated argument above...but I'm not sure...cos I can't remember what the point of it was.......or...what was the question????


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:30 PM

My gawd Sins......With predictions like that, you could really make some big bucks. I'll put in a call to the National Enquirer and those other bird cage liners and see what we can get going. Hey!!! How about one of those infomercials? Didn't work out for me with the "Holy Shit Falwell" but this is another chance. I'll only take 10% for management fees.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:34 PM

SINSULL - I once place a Takamine guitar (in its case) on the rear deck of my car outside Don's Coffeehouse. I then got into a lengthy talk with a friend about something. She eventually headed out, and I got in the car and started driving home. About 3 miles down the road I thought "Where is the guitar?", and looked over my shoulder at the back seat. It wasn't there.

I felt this horrible rush of adrenalin hit me. Where was it? I chanced to look up at the rearview mirror and saw the guitar case, which was by now a couple of inches away from sliding off the back of my car, which was going at about 90 kph (55 mph) down a country road. I very gingerly slowed the car down and eased it off to the side of the road.

I have never more sincerely thanked God for anything in my life. I had actually made it around 2 corners and several sharp turns without losing that guitar.

I now have a rule. When approaching any vehicle with your guitar, prior to opening said vehicle, place guitar firmly on top of the hood against the windshield. I recommend this practive to one and all.

A few weeks ago a friend of Don Bray's backed his car directly over the case of his Martin guitar, breaking the neck in two. This again, happened after he had been distracted by a conversation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:48 PM

Spaw,
I think we would make more money demonstrating hair removal products on Cletus and Paw. Have you seen those things? YECCHH. They have a gorilla man covered in resin and they rip his hair off his back while he smiles and pretends he feels nothing. Then they show a close-up of the cloth with all the hair (complete with follicles) on it. At that point I head to the bathroom wretching.

Someone explain to me the need for that unexplainable act. The man has a hairless stripe on his back!!! And it probably grows back wrong so that he has a patch of ingrown infected hair. Am I on the wrong thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:50 PM

I mean retching over the poor wretch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:54 PM

Awhile back I brought this up on another thread just to find out if they did indeed USE the product in Australia where they claim its from. Helen and alison both assured me it IS!! I agree with all of your feelings Sins, but what gets me is the name: NADS

I'm just happy they didn't demonstrate on the guys nads instead!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:01 PM

Here's another thing. This happens to me and Mister on a very regular basis. We are both Virgos, my birthday 9/7, his 9/22, twelve years apart which means our Chinese horoscope is also the same (ram/sheep/goat, depending on who you ask; personally I prefer ram). Here are a couple of examples. One night I put on a particular CD because there was a particular song I wanted to hear. I hadn't said anything, I just went over and put it on. Mister said, I was just going to put on that very CD.

Another time, I was driving home from work, and as I got to my street, I was singing a song. When I walked in the door, Mister was singing The Very Same Song. That means that we were singing it At The Same Time without knowing it.

Or maybe one of us will say something and the other reply, I was just thinking the same thing.

Like I said, this happens on an almost daily basis. One could say that it comes from having been together for 11 years... but this stuff's been going on ever since we met.

Something else I don't get... what's it mean when you're trying not to think about someone/something, and every which was you turn, there's a quirky little coincidence that keeps the person/thing/situation at the forefront of your thoughts? What's that all about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: MMario
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:17 PM

*guilt* that's what that's about. Ask anyone brought up in New England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:19 PM

G'day,

Hi Catspaw49 et al,

I don't have any personal experience in the field of cloudbusting - we say cloudburst in the UK - but there again I haven't been to the moon.
I'll guess I will have to trust others on this, and many other subject, and give my nominal assent.
When I experience it I will give my real assent.


A Photo of a Cloudbuster

Reich's work is a very big subject - and I only know of it through the research of others.

Hope this helps.

"Trust but verify"
-R. Reagan.

Toodle-pip


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 03:08 PM

I've done a little amateur cloudbusting, and yes, it can be done. Haven't tried it out since the late 70's though. It's an interesting demonstration of the power of directed thought, and is easier than you might think.

If you absolutely do not believe it can be done, however, my bet would be that you won't be able to do it.

That's how powerful thoughts are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Melani
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 03:36 PM

I often "know" things before they happen. It's usually some tiny unimportant thing--"If I put this glass on that shelf, it's going to fall off and break," and then exactly that happens. It's just a split-second sort of thing, but I've learned to pay attention. Saves a lot of broken glass. I've also learned to pay attention to intuitions about people. I was once very leery of a potential business partner who came highly recommended, who caused us a huge amount of grief and lost money. But it doesn't always work. I hadn't a clue about another business partner who was even worse. (I no longer have ANY partners.)

I have also sometimes know about serious illnesses in friends before they appeared, but in other cases had no idea. I have come to the conclusion that brain waves must be something like radio waves, with different frequencies--some I can pick up, and others I can't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 06:48 PM

Melani...when you can do your brain wave receiving trick on demand, under controlled conditions, with total strangers, THEN we have something!But you said it youreslf.."it doesn't always work"...Likewise, when Little Hawk...or anyone else... can 'bust a cloud' on demand, time after time, then we are close to drought control....I have as many stories as anyone else of having 'weird premonitions' and thinking of someone just as they call me on the phone...but they also call lots of times when I was NOT thinking about them...

The mind LOVES to find connections and causality...it gives this crazy universe a certain order and ties up loose ends. It is SO tempting to associate what YOU do with events 'out there', and when things do seem to be associated, we remember them....but who pays any attention to the thousands of times when NO association is noticed?

Someone published a little story once which really got to me..:

A family had a dog which had the habit of pawing at the screen door till it banged when he wanted in. Well, it happened sadly that the old dog died one stormy night when the family was away...they found him on the porch where he had been trying to get inside. So they buried him out back, and went on with life.
...5 years later to the day, there was another storm, and they were sitting around, sadly remembering old Shep, when there was this scratchy banging at the door!..Startled, they rushed to the door and flung it open.....to find a tree branch had blown against the door and loosened the latch.

Someone looked up in the almanac and found that the previous 4 years the weather was calm and quiet on that day.

and so it goes


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 07:04 PM

Cloud busters are a lot more common that some people think. On several occassions I have asked people, many of whom I hardly knew, whether or not they had ever tried dissolving clouds. So far, everyone I have asked has said yes.

When my son was about seven or eight years old, I taught him how to dissolve clouds. He then went and taught some of his friends how to do it. He stopped doing that, however, when he disovered some of them trying to dissolve him.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 07:06 PM

I never heard of trying to dissolve clouds. I was too busy trying to look for cool shapes in them. Classic one I saw once? A man with long hair flying down a hill in a bathtub.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 07:22 PM

Cloud Story--no signifcance whatsoever, as far as I know:

Years ago, when I was about 14, 4 or 5 carloads of us were traveling from Winfield, KS (US) to Grand Lake o'the Cherokees, in OK. It was late afternoon, early evening with one of those wonderful prairie thunderstorms building up, with all the fantastic cumulus clouds in the eastern part of the sky. Behind us, to the west, the sky was still mostly clear with a few high cirrus (mare's tails)clouds.

Suddenly, my dad, driver of the lead car, pulled over onto the shoulder, jumped out and waved everybody else over too. He pointed at the western sky behind us. Of course, everyone got out to see what he was looking at.

Behind us, in the clouds, was a battle, complete with running horses, cannon balls with puffs of powder smoke, men falling off horses when the cannonballs hit, the WHOLE BATTLE. Seemed to be a Civil War Battle to us. Before very long, the entire shoulder of the highway was covered with parked cars and people watching the show. Everyone could see the same things at the same time--WOW, did you see that shot? Was really close to that Troop type stuff. Memeory fails, but I know there were about 10-15 in my own group, and it seems that we had about 50 people watching the clouds.

Show lasted about an hour, then the clouds just drifted away. I might have been even more impressed if it had been the Ghost Riders chasing the herd, but I doubt it. I had seen and have seen "shapes" in the clouds but this is the only thing like that I have ever seen, and I am glad I was not the only one who saw it!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 07:26 PM

Sorcha, there are records of such occurances in England, where people have seen medieval battles being fought in the horizon during sunset. One particularly notorious spot for the phenomena is Caernarvon, Wales.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 07:27 PM

Sometimes I know what is going to happen. Sure, it's only sometimes, but I don't see how there could not be a connection there... (Maybe that proves the behaviourist's point, I don't know.)
Like this month.
At the end of July, I told my mother that I would have a job before September, and that it would be part-time, two days a week. I have been unemployed for three years, and don't have good job search skills. (Obviously!) She thought that I had a job lined up, and was a bit annoyed at me when I told that, no, it was just a big feeling that it was going to happen. She still tried to argue with me.

Well, last Tuesday, completely on impulse, I walked into the little local restaurant to get a burger. I started talking to this one waitress, she asked me if my mother had gone away for a while and if I was missing her. That was true. Turns out the waitress is interested in Native American Spirituality. (It's funny how many people are turning up in my life now who are into that.) I told her I was looking for part-time work, she went into the back, came out, and I went into the back and had a little interview with my supervisor and then the boss.
I went in the next day for training, and started work this weekend past.
Another little coincidence: I had forgotten my wallet, and had to go home and get it. On my way back to the restaurant to pay, I saw a rainbow. One end was directly over the restaurant, the other end was in the clouds.
My favorite quote is from Thoreau: "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost, that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them."
You can argue my interpretation of the events and coincidences.
You can't argue the fact that I knew ahead of time that I was going to get a job, when I have been completely hopeless about the subject for three years.

Sometimes you just know.

~*sirepseh*~
BTW, the first thing I did when I got home after getting the job was to email my mother with a big "I TOLD YOU SO!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 07:45 PM

"but I don't see how there could not be a connection there...".....but I find it easy to not see a connection.*smile*...I simply remember all the times when I expected something ...and nothing happened


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 07:55 PM

But Bill ol' buddy....How can you explain the farted Falwell I described above???

(It does scare me that you and I see the universe in so similar a fashion......what with you being such a well known curmudgeonly old poop and all)

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 08:10 PM

But it's not like "expecting" something...

Like, I could expect my friend to call me because he said he would... and maybe I know that something's happened and he can't call me, and I find out later that what I knew had happened, actually happened, and it was that exact reason why he didn't call me... (This is just an example.)

Oh, I give up. It's like trying to explain harmony to the tone deaf.
I just don't have the tools to explain it.

There is a certainty in the knowing that seems almost insane, except that what you know is going to happen, comes true.

You can tell people or not. You can wish that it wouldn't happen, or wish that it would. It still happens the way you know it will, when you know.

It's a lot easier to think that I know things sometimes, than it is to think that somehow, I am pulling strings I can't even see, and rearranging the universe around me, to make something happen, that I don't even necessarily want to have happen.

I don't know everything. I don't think I would want to know everything. I have known things about people, that it really scared me to know. Things about people that aren't even in the room for me to read their body language. Things that I wouldn't have made up, because I don't think that way. And these things were true.

I can't explain it...
hesperis, who is getting very frustrated. ARRRGH!


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 08:17 PM

Without curmudgeonly old poops around, us Native American mystical cloudbusters wouldn't have near as much fun telling our stories. It was kind of like that back in the earlier centuries too, but a lot more dangerous. They used to shoot at us then when we brought up stuff they weren't familiar with.

We had our own curmudgeonly old poops too, of course, but they tended to be pretty mystical, if sometimes a bit crabby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 08:48 PM

aww...shucks...glad to be useful!..*grin*...

(I can at least write out the mathematical relationships of harmony and sound for the tone deaf..*shrug*...care to draw me a diagram of 'knowing something'?....)

Ah, well, as I said...in my curmudgeonly way...show me something repeatable and testable...Tain't fair that YOU get to see/hear/know all that neat stuff and I don't!


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 08:58 PM

Hesperis,

My life has been blessed ; ) with a number of linear thinking, left brain oriented, logical thinkers. This is how I comfort myself. I think about how I'm going to feel when I get to the end of my life and I look back on it. I feel pretty confident that I'm going to feel good about the way I lived my life, the decisions I made, and the perspective on reality that I embraced.

I am also pretty confident that the people I know who choose differently are going to feel just as good about their choices as I do about mine. And that's good.

For everyone else: If anyone wants to try dissolving clouds, it's not too hard as long as you are realistic about choosing your cloud. On a calm, sunny day with a few puffy clouds in the sky, pick a small cloud that isn't moving too fast as your target.

Get as relaxed as you can. It doesn't work well at all if you are tense or anxiously expectant.

Look at the cloud, and then close your eyes and imagine the cloud dissolving slowly until it dissapears. Expect it to take a few minutes (for me, it takes about ten to fifteen minutes). Before you do this, make a mental map of the other clouds in the area, so you know that your cloud is behaving differently than the others. Otherwise you might think it's a coincidence that the cloud dissapeared.

You can check on it from time to time to see how it's progressing, and so you don't lose track of it.

Some people prefer to just visualize empty sky where the cloud is. That method doesn't work as well for me, but everybody's different.

It's important to keep in mind that this is strictly a mental process. If you allow your emotions to get involved, it probably won't work too well. Also, you want to be conscious of your breathing. You want to breathe deeply, and keep your breathing slow.

I won't suggest that this will work for everyone, but so far, I've never seen it fail. Except when people tried to do it on big clouds, or clouds that were moving too quickly.

Happy dissolving,

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 08:58 PM

You're right Bill D, it isn't fair.
I guess we have different skills.

I get to know things sometimes, and you get to be a know-it-all.
(Was that too close to being a flame? If so, I'm ducking behind the shrubbery now!)

As I said, I don't have the tools to explain this...
Wish I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:09 PM

The difference hesperis is quite simple You are convinced of what you know, but as you cannot prove it to the supposed skeptics such as Bill and I, you are in fact challenging your own belief. When your feelings and actions don't match your belief, you feel angst.

Bill and I both challenge our beliefs, but the number of things that we believe are unknowable or beyond proof at this time are legion, so we have learned the simple trick of "not minding" the not knowing. It eliminates angst and then I can focus on the things that are knowable.

Ya' know?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:11 PM

Bill D,

This is an interesting little juxtaposition here, because while you can write out the mathmatical relationships of harmony and sound, I wouldn't be able to understand them. Maybe it's the same way for you when people like hesperis, Little Hawk, and I try to explain the things that we understand to you.

Best wishes,

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:15 PM

Well, out here in the Burning West, I am certainly NOT going to try dissolving ANY clouds. Could somebody send a lot with water in them, that will fall as rain on command? Any moment now will do. Mudcat, did after all manage to put out the Colorado Fires last month......(firmly in the cheek), and not trying to be little anyone, or anyone's beliefs. Just send RAIN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:21 PM

I'm sorry things are so bad for you out there, Sorcha. I've never been able to make clouds. Wish I could help.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:27 PM

Sorcha, with all this cloud dissolving information in hand I will attempt to teleport some of the projected rainfall for this area into your neck of the burning woods. If that doesn't help I hope that my wishes for an end to the fires there soothes even if it doesn't extinguish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:29 PM

I thought the "dissolving clouds" thing was a joke. Don't all clouds dissolve eventually?

Now I am in big trouble with a skeptical and somewhat curmudgeonly friend who claims that I am foolishly encouraging Ebbie in the belief that she can chat with the dead. And worse yet that I am encouraging her to pursue a career with palm readers and charlatans who will rob her blind. SO for the record, Ebbie enjoy your experience, make of it what you will and don't pay anyone to contact Earl or anyone else. It is obvious to me that you have that ability yourself. UHOH I think I am in trouble again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:37 PM

Miracles do not happen in contradiction of nature, but in contradiction to what we know about nature. St. Augustine

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:41 PM

Hey! I don't chat with the dead- I get letters! LOL

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:51 PM

I used to play in a band in the north of Ireland, during the late '70's, early 80's, and we used to be on the road 5-6 nights a week. At this stage, there was only my father, mother, my next eldest sister, and myself, living at home.

Anyway, I was out gigging most nights, and used to arrive in home at varying hours of the night, and early morning. My sister had a part time job working in the restuarant of a local hotel, but her hours were much more predictable than mine, and she used to be home around 2 in the morning.

We lived in a hostile end of town, and locking our front door at night was a procedure that had to be adhered to and given first priority when it concerned my sister and me, who would be home long after my parents had gone to bed.

There were a few locks on our front door, and my father, before he went to bed locked the strongest of them; a huge front-door lock, made by Yale. There were bolt locks on the inside. We had the key to the front door, my sister and I, and when one of us would come home, we would look into each other's room, to see if all hands were accounted for. If I was planning to stay out until the morning, I would normally give my sister a ring at work, and tell her to lock up, etc.

One night I happened to get home before her, and as the car wasn't outside the door, I figured she was still at work; I checked her room, and she wasn't there.
I skipped off to bed, and must have fallen asleep quite quickly.

But I distinctly remember a 'dream' I had, where I was looking down, as if from the rooftops, at the streets surrounding our house below.

I saw our yellow Datsun turn off the main Armagh Road onto Ormond Street, down Coronation Street, into William Street, and then up our street; which I wont name.

My sister came up the street, in my dream, not down, which she usually did; in fact she drove a bit of a roundabout route. I saw her park the car, heard her pull the handbrake up, get out, lock the door, and then go to the boot (trunk). She opened the boot, looked in, and then closed it again, without taking anything out.

She first pulled out what looked like her wallet, and then the front door key.

Inside the house, now, I was 'in front' of her as she went up the stairs and as I saw her turn the handle of my bedroom door, I woke up to see her pop her head around the door.
"Oh", she says. "You're home. Goodnight, then".

I saw the car parked 'up the street', next morning when I got up, and my sister was knocking around as well.
I asked her a bit later about what she did after turning off the Armagh Road, the change of route, opening the boot, etc.

She had done all of that, in that order. My bedroom was at the back of the house, and even if I was awake, I wouldn't have been able to hear the engine of a car, never mind it's handbrake, especially if she was trying to be quiet, as she would have been.
So as far as I can figure it, I had no external stimulus.

Wwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhoooooaaaaaaa!!!!

Spooky init?

B.
0.02


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:51 PM

SINSULL,

The important thing is to observe how your cloud is behaving in relation to the clouds around it. If your target cloud dissolves every time, but the clouds around your target cloud remain intact at least most of the time, if not every time, then I think you can say you have a pattern that is worthy of consideration.

Best wishes,

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: KT
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:08 PM

Brendy, I think it's more cool than spooky!!! It happens!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:14 PM

Spaw, my feelings and actions do match my "belief".
It is not in fact a "belief" to me. Do you have to believe in a chair? No, you sit on it.
But what happens when other people say "there is no proof that there is a chair..." A chair is a concrete object, that you and I can both see and sit on. Unfortunately you and many others cannot see "knowing things." No, it's not a chair, but it is there and I have experienced it.

What I cannot do, is prove my knowledge according to your system - yet. I am frustrated, not in trying to prove this to myself, but in trying to translate something from one language to another, when the other language has no words for what I do.

I read a 'science' fiction book recently where one nonhuman race was stealing artwork from another nonhuman race, because they had no concept of rocks possibly being alive. The rocks in question were moving and speaking to each other, and to the humans, but the other nonhumans just could not get it in their heads that the rock things were people. They had no words in their language to describe that.

Yes, that was fiction, but this situation seems similar. I have no words in your language of Proof, to tell you what I have experienced again and again.

Carol, that is a very good point.
However, I would be able to understand the mathmatical relationships of harmony and sound. This is what frustrates me here. I am usually good at translating the logical and the intuitive.

I guess you have to experience it.
I should probably take Little Hawk's advice, and let some things remain mysteries.

Wow! This is a seriously fantastic discussion!

~*sirepseh*~


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: flattop
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:16 PM

Well I'm a cynic but... This afternoon I got a long distance call from a mudcatter in another country who said something like, 'Are you feeling ok? I read the forgiveness thread and you sound strange.' I felt fine and said so.

Tonight I feel as sick as a dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:30 PM

Little Hawk incanting again I wonder?

Touch the screen flattop, touch the screen.
It's our only salvation!!

KT: Yeah, I suppose, but at the time (being much younger and innocent) I didn't tell anybody about it, except my sister. It wasn't 'cool' in those days, not where I lived *BG*

I don't talk about it too much these days, neither; probably some inherent fear that a Little Hawk, or the ilk will appear to me in a dream, and call me 'brother' or something, and tries to beckon me back to the sacred altar, or somewhere. *LOL*

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: flattop
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:31 PM

It's quite apparent, hesperis, that you are one of those strange people who believes in chairs. You believe to the extent that you sit on them without question. Modern science tells us that what we mistake for chairs and what we believe to be solid objects are structures of molocules that change in time. While you are sitting on what you mistake for a solid object, molocules and electrons are racing around under your butt, changing and reforming the so called chair in ways that your lack of sensitivity leads you to deny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: flattop
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:37 PM

How about, you touch what you want and I'll touch what I want, Brendy? At least you are far enough away from Little Hawk that he's not commenting on your hair. What's wrong with my hair? I even washed it before Song Circle last night.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:38 PM

Hesperis, I've played this game for years and you are entitled to believe these things are possible and I would agree with you as I have experienced them myself. But their is NO frustration, noe should there be in not being able to explain them. In my casr, I lump them into the "Organized Chaos" of the universe which at this point we cannot and do not have the ability to understand. I check in on this occasionally as I do other things that I can explain just to see if I can make things fit. But I am not troubled by my own or your inability to explain phenomena in a logical thought sequence. Some things are just unknowable.

As to your Sci-Fi story, that is an ancient question in Metaphysics 202 that the writer has based his story on. Scientifically speaking, life can only begin once in one place of one composition. But it is possible for life to start elsewhere in a different time and place with a different composition....So it is quite possible that we have been visited (or are being visited) by alien beings, but they would have no recognition of us and we would have no recognition of them as lifeforms. Now that is provable.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:42 PM

Never really believed in the screen theory, anyway. Ah well, that's what you get for trying to be helpful. Your hair looks fine to me, though, flattop

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:46 PM

why I am a sceptic....

Benjamin Creme ..My mother-in-law was DEEPLY into this one

Estatic Dynamics

The Galactic Fellowship>/a>

The Urantia Book

and somewhere I saw a page about Ohaspe, a copy of which I own...in which a fellow claims to have been awakened by an angel every night for a year and typed out a "new Bible" in the 1880s...etc.... When you add in all the competing religions, cults, New Age herbalists, Tarot readers, Astrologers, Witches, Satanists, Healers, general 'communers with Nature', and bodyworkers who adjust my aura while annointing me with oils, I just can't sort out all the interlocking claims and energies....so I just wait till something happens to ME!....(and sing and laugh and play,) and....as catspaw says...I "don't mind" not having all the answers....


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:50 PM

Can we prove love? Yes, we can describe the effects of it but I don't know of a way to prove such a thing exists. And yet, not many of us would agree that it is solely nature's way of forcing us to reproduce or to encourage us to protect each other's lives- we know it is of a much greater depth than that.

Music and its harmonies is mathematical in its components- but that doesn't mean its effects on us are necessarily repeatable. For one thing, it has different effects on different people at different times and in different environments.

In my dotage, I have begun to realize that allowing something to happen- making room for it to happen- and having it happen, is a completely natural phenomenon. I, for one, love being able to rely on it.(I'm not speaking of the cloud-name here. I have no explanation for that. But that only means I don't know YET.)

And Spaw, I'm "not minding" that you don't get it. *BG* I do think life is richer my way. Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:56 PM

BTW...the Links on that Urantia page dont seem to work...here is one from inside the site


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:07 PM

Well Bill, I was about to say that, but thanks for the additional.

I've got so damn many bookmarks............Karen is always reading some of mine and asking why the hell I keep adding this stuff. I'll blame these on you.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:13 PM

Spaw, I understand what you're saying now. (I think.) I'll be back later on that.

flattop, you are sick! Did someone hit you over te head with a 2x4? (Sorry, I had to!) That one about chairs is good.
I don't mind your hair, it's just LH's opinion, and he's probably wrong.(Although I didn't say I liked it either...)

G'night, all.

hesperis


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Helen
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:15 PM

hesperis,

There are some of us you don't need to explain it to. I know what you are saying because I experience it too. I tend not to try to explain it to other people because it is too difficult, and I agree about the inadequacies of language when the concepts are not well-accepted by the majority of people.

I have worked on improving my psychic hunches/intuition to take it past an erratic, hit & miss tool to something a bith more predictable but it doesn't mean that it is 100% reliable either. Wishful thinking or fear can get in the way sometimes and make the signal unreliable.

About knowing when someone is about to call: often my mother or sister will ring when I have been concentrating on finishing something but thinking that I will ring one or the other of them when I have finished. So I am focusing on a task but reminding myself that I want to ring someone and before I get to pick up the phone the one I have been thinking about rings me. I think that I have been sending a strong signal to someone I know well and am emotionally connected to and we are tuned into the same wavelength. This knowing between the three of us has always been very strong and we have a huge number of incidents which we talk about.

I have also had a few encounters with people who have died - sometimes in dreams, sometimes while awake. Saw my Grandmother standing next to her coffin at the funeral service, looking intently around at everyone's faces. Didn't see my Auntie at her funeral a couple of months ago but she had been in a stroke-induced state for a number of years. She was there in a dream two weeks later in a repeat enactment of the funeral service. Nearly ran into a woman standing in a doorway in a house I lived in 20 years ago and had a huge physical reaction - adrenaline, heart pumping, had to sit in a well lit room for about an hour to calm down. Etc etc

The incidents are real. I'm not easily convinced of this stuff, by the way - very left-brain/right-brain balanced. But, I don't sweat it if someone else doesn't believe what I am saying. Different viewpoints, different ways of processing information, different personalities.

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:17 PM

Well damn hespy....If you can understand what I'm saying, could you come back and explain it to me? I don't really have a clue and I'm still mad over not being able to capitalize on the mysterious, crepitated, Jerry Falwell image on my garage wall.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:27 PM

My "link" to my son is comforting. He disappeared for three years. Although I knew when he was in trouble, I also knew for certain that he was alive. I have no control over this. It is as if we have a phone connection. Sometimes static, sometimes not. But if he were dead I would know. I often know when perfectly healthy people are about to die. i hate it. It's frightening but very real. And sorry but I have made it a policy never to speak.

One of my stranger incidents involved a phone call. A friend's son had been arrested for murder. She fell apart and was hospitalized. I searched a phone book for a florist near the hospital, debated between two, and picked up the phone to order flowers. There was an elderly woman on the line instead of a dial tone. She was calling the same florist. Coincidence? Maybe. But this sort of coincidence happens fairly regularly in my life.

I have NO control over it. I have learned to pay attention to it and in fact saved my own life once. That "feeling" came over me while on a sales call in Manhattan. I was leaving an office building, stopped and went back inside to call a friend. She was upset - felt that something was wrong and didn't know where her daughter was. All of a sudden there was a huge explosion. An underground explosion in front of the building had sent manhole covers flying. One person was killed. Several injured and I was safely inside. Maybe the pressure build up itself affected me. But why was my friend as sure as I was that something was wrong? Animals sense imminent earthquakes. Some people are thrown into convulsions just before earthquakes.

I called the sitter from Detroit to tell him that my son had hurt his mouth. He thought I was crazy. Lawrence came in screaming with two broken teeth, one missing,and a gash that required 18 stitches. He had been hit in the face with a baseball. I knew it before it happened. Coincidence? maybe.

Now spaw is planning a psychic infomecial but I really think he ought to rethink it. First i have no control. Second I might figure it out.
DO DO DO DO DO DO DO DO (also Twilight Zone)


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 12:00 AM

Personally, I am a strict follower of the Ancient Path of the Mystic Fortune Cookie. Everything you need to know in life can be found in a fortune cookie. I never make a major decision without consulting a fortune cookie. My current fortune cookie reading is, "PLEASANT OPPORTUNITY FOR SOCIAL BENEFIT AMONG RIVALS". How can you beat that? == Johnny


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Melani
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 12:02 AM

When I "know" something, it's a very specific, very strong feeling that I find impossible to describe adequately. It's very different from anything else. In the case of the two friends with serious illnesses, they were both people I was close to. I suspect that has something to do with picking things up.

When my grandmother died, I was 2000 miles away, and sent flowers rather than attend her funeral. When my grandfather followed her a few years later, I was in the same place, and my family again said, "It's too far for you to come; he would understand." But this time I felt an incredible compulsion to go to the funeral. Finally, even though I couldn't afford it, I gave in and bought a plane ticket.

My grandfather was 83 and in poor health; his last words were, "I want toget out of here, I miss my wife." So the funeral was not an especially sad occasion for the family. In fact, we had quite a nice reunion at his house--one of the best parties we'd had in years, and we all stayed several days before dispersing. I had a great time with my aunt and my parents, who at that time lived on the opposite coast.

Three weeks later, my father unexpectedly died a few hours after arriving at my home for a Christmas visit. Attending my grandfather's funeral had allowed me to spend a last few days with my dad.

I had the same feeling when it was time to send my daughter to school. My husband favored one school and I another. There was very little difference between the two, but I fought him tooth and nail for my choice, because I had that same very strong indescribable feeling. I won, and nothing special ever happened. I've wondered for years if it was just bullshit, or if maybe she would have been run over by a truck or something at the other school.

In the case of my friends' illnesses, it was something I kept pushing out of my mind, because I didn't want to hear it, but it kept forcing its way back, stronger and stronger. I never said anything to either one; they would have thought I was crazy. Neither one had any slowly occuring progression of symptoms; in both cases it was a sudden symptom that precipitated the diagnosis. One died, the other survived. When the first guy died, I swore I would never let it go again, but when it happened again years later, I found it impossible to tell the other guy about my fears. It was just too weird.

Sometimes I worry when my husband or daughter comes home late, or my mother doesn't answer the phone, but it's a different sort of worry, I always look at it very carefully to see if it's THAT feeling, but it never has been. And they've always come home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 12:02 AM

With a stick?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Escamillo
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 02:36 AM

Ok Bill D, now that we know you are so logically minded, I'll challenge you to find an explanation to The Mistery of the Hiding Back of the Chair, a TRUE story which happened last winter in my house.

My favorite chair, by my desk at home, was a Cinema-director type (those pliable, made of tubes an cloth). Every day when I woke up (at noon, cause I work at night until 5 o 6 AM), the cloth-made back of the chair had disappeared. The first time this happened I complained to wife and sons and dogs, until I found the damn thing INTO my closet, as if someone had thrown it there, carelessly.

Second time I complained harder, since it was obviously a stupid joke, but everybody, including the dogs, sweared to not having touched that back of the seat, and even less having hidden it into my closet.

I was very upset and intrigued and slept with one eye open watching the door of my closet, for weeks. Regularly the back of the chair gloriously reappeared in my closet.

One day my wife Graciela (100% Galizian) early in the morning came to my desk, minutes before I usually go to bed. She looked at my coat, hanging in the back of my chair, then told me "look, this is what you do", then took my coat by its soulders, grabbing the back of the chair along with the coat, and walked to my closet, then hanged the coat in a hanger. By that time the Evil Back of the Chair had slippered down 10 inches inside the coat. As she opened the closet's door again, the Evil Thing was down there, as if someone would have thrown it there carelessly.

My conclusion: since I CAN'T BE SO STUPID, I'm convinced that skeptic people, especially Galizians, are able to invent weird theories out of the most amazing natural or paranatural things, in their insane will to destroy our way of thinking. Now, do you have a CREDIBLE scientific explanation ??

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:54 AM

Would somebody please explain to me the strange and ghostly voice in my head that keeps saying ....Carol..get..back..on..the..Mudcat....


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:04 AM

Carol,
without any irony I am grateful for your example how you have proved to yourself cloudbusting, for I always look for good examples from real life to make the otherwise sometimes dull lecture on how do to (and how not do to) (quasi)experiments more interesting. My students (some of them but I hope only a few will hate me for that) will be assigned the task to spot the mistake and to describe how to do it correctly. And you're post will be cited in my book on experimental methods (BTW, that should help to convince my employer that mudcatting during office time may be considered working).

Claims like that can easily be tested and have been tested. When you (from here on that's all of you and not just Carol) have read this and similar threads so far you won't be surprised to read from me that the claimants could not back up their claims in well controlled quasi-experiments. Neither will you be surprised to hear how the claimants reacted: With all those negative sceptic thoughts around it is no wonder I had no success. Their thoughts were working against my thoughts
Yes, I know, it always works, except when a sceptics looks.
Keep the good examples coming, I can't have too many of them. I always hated dull lectures when I was on the receiving end so I decided to do something against that being on the giving end.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: flattop
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 08:21 AM

I see that this strange belief in chairs varies as it travels the globe, Escamillo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:27 AM

Personally speaking, I have had more encounters with piano accordions than psychic phenomena.

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: sophocleese
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:36 AM

Oh Wow! Skipjack! Me too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:39 AM

It's a sign!

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Alice
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 11:14 AM

In homage to the great (Irish born) satirist, Jonathan Swift, who showed us the folly of fuzzy thinking...

In part III, chapter 5 of the tale, a professor shows Gulliver a machine that generates random sequences of words. This device was based on a 20 foot square frame supporting wires threaded through wooden cubes, where each face of every cube had a piece of paper bearing a word pasted onto it.

"The most ignorant person at a reasonable charge, and with little bodily labor, may write books in philosophy, poetry, law, mathematics, and theology, without the least assistance from genius or study." ~ Gulliver's Travels


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: MMario
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 11:35 AM

What I want to know, is how come I spent over 1/2 hour trying to start the lawn mower yesterday and it never even sputtered (Thank god I had a witness) and my nephew comes out and starts it running perfectly the first time, without changing a bloody setting on the freekin' thing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 01:25 PM

Escamillo,
I had a similar experience with a kitchen cabinet which would not remain shut. My apartment has high ceilings. The cabinet in question was at the very top, latched every night and opened every morning. It was strange since I had to get on a ladder to latch it. One night about 3AM I heard a noise in the kitchen and found that my cat was jumping from the counter top to the cabinet handle - an 8' jump - and hitting the handle until the door opened. Then he went in and slept. Mystery solved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:06 PM

Wolfgang,

I honestly don't know how to respond to your post except to say that I don't engage in cloud dissolving activity in order to prove anything. Only for my own enjoyment and entertainment.

The reason that I gave instructions was so that if anyone else wanted to do it (or believe they are doing it, even if they are just deluding themselves), and if they can have fun at it as I do, they will have some idea of how to proceed.

It is not important to me whether or not the things I do that make my life more enjoyable can be proved or accepted by scientists. I think there is beauty in the choices that you make about what to accept as real. I also think there is beauty in the choices that I make about what I accept as real.

So, Wolfgang, here's to you and to me.

Cheers!

Carol

P.S. Skipjack K8, please explain the difference between a piano accordion and a psychic phenomenon. Both of them get you into a lot of trouble. ; )


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:46 PM

Banjo Johnny - I have a friend, (who will remain unnamed to protect the guilty,) who always adds the words "in bed" on the end of any fortune cookie he reads.

Can anyone explain these fortunes I've received lately?

"Be prepared to accept a wondrous opportunity in the days ahead!"

"Your existence has a positive contribution to mankind."

"Your flair for the creative takes an important place in your life."

(You know, if I took this too seriously...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:52 PM

Hesperis,

Maybe you will be the modern day pioneer who will finally be able to translate an understanding of the ephemeral into the language of science and logic.

Best wishes,

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:00 PM

Hesperis....somewhere or another we ran a thread about that....lotsa' fun!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:51 PM

Thanks, Carol, Spaw.

You know, I think the only things those fortunes really say is that I ate a lot of Chinese food in the past month...

Nothin' excitin' bin happenin' in bed, anyway! *g*


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Alice
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:25 AM

Here's what a friend has to say on the subject...

"I've told this real story before. A native American [Cheyenne/Arapaho] I knew well in New Mexico told me that when he was 21 in the late 1960s he wanted to experience the vision quest of his ancestors. It was a time when many young Indians were re-exploring their roots. His grandmother initiated him into the way of it. On her directions he fasted several days and went to a sacred mountain area in S Dakota near the reservation with only a blanket, made a cirle of stones and sat inside it, day and night for several days. He had incredible experiences---a few were visitations and audible "words" from both spiritual animals and real ones, a sense of virtual soul travel or OBE and interactions with "ancestors." He recited these upon entering his grandmother's house, standing there proudly with his robe and walking staff in hand. Grandmother listened patiently while she washed the dishes, turned around when he was finished and said: "A man who has many visions has a weak spirit." It was a kind way of saying he was "psychotic," not centered. A true visionary on a quest comes back centered on a clear path of what to do with his life and reenters society humbly to do it well. Chop wood, carry water after enlightenment says the old zen aphorism."


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 01:28 AM

Alice,

If you heard the story of my life, I think you would come away from the experience saying "That CarolC is one of the most grounded and centered people I've ever met."

Don't judge another until you've walked a mile in their moccasins. And certainly don't judge them until you have some factual information about them. It's not logical.

Respectfully,

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:24 AM

Carol,
the question that can easily be proved or disproved if you'd care is whether the connection you see is based on reality or originates from that great pattern generating 'machine' between your ears. It' s your choice whether you want to adhere to absurd (i.e.: not based on reality) beliefs.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:30 AM

Wolfgang,

Damn straight.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:43 AM

P.S. In case you are not familiar with American slang, damn straight means "I agree with you completely"


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Alice
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 09:59 AM

Carol, I was not posting in response to you. I had not even read what you had written here. I read the thread title and posted my message to the thread because I thought it applied to the topic. So, you see, I'm not judging you. I wasn't even writing about you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 10:59 AM

wHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN YOUE FORTUNE COOKIE IS EMPTY? mADE ME VERY NERVOUS.
mARY


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:34 PM

CarolC, I top and tailed the thread for subject matter, and came up with accordions and psychic phenomena. Being a fellow sufferer of accordionitis, I relished your words. I used to be a apologist, and favour the melodeon, but I think the generation that gave the accordion a bad name went before me, and all I seem to come across is loud, uncouth, rude and frankly piss poor (Andy Cutting, Julian Whatsisname and my brother excused) melodeon players with a superiority complex.

I have learned a couple of licks on a one row Cajun box, but despite the size difference, it is much easier to make love through an accordion. Mine's Italian, maybe that's it! Difficult to bonk with a Hohner. You like jigijig?

Skipjack

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 05:31 PM

Skipjack,

I don't know what jigijig means (do I want to know?), but I assure you, you can definitely make love through a Honer.

Another Mudcat member has suggested that I check out an accordion player named Tom Waits. He says Waits' music is enigmatic and darkly ironic. That's what I'm looking for. My first post to a Mudcat thread was in search of European circus music. I was not able to find any. I think that sort of music would be incredible on an accordion.

What make is your accordion? When you say one row, are you talking about the chord buttons?

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Brendy
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 05:51 PM

Yo Carol.

A quick search came up with this - Click - The home page of this troupe is here.

It may not be quite what you have been looking for, but they are worth a listen, anyway. And their links page (although some are in Norwegian), is worth checking out.

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 07:44 PM

Bugari Juniorfisa, Cags, 120 bass, 1978 model. Just been working up the accordion lick in Counting Crows Mr Jones for a gig tomorrow night. Cracking riff.

The one row box is a melodeon I mess about with.

Prefer Hohners for marching up and down parade grounds. Too Oom Pah Pah to my ear. You might like jigijig. I believe it is Italian for casual sex.

Brendy, bit of Norwegian interest for you. I'm trying to raise a bid for one of these old boats. She's up near Trondheim, which seems a fock of a long way up country. Read all about it at

http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001345.html

Sorry, you're the cat for the blickys.

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 10:12 PM

O.K.

Thanks Brendy.

Skipjack K8,

I have felt that it's hard to get any kind of fluid sound out of my Hohner. I guess that's what you mean by too Oom Pah Pah. It's the only accordion I've ever played. Does this vary from one accordion to another?

I'm thinking of starting an accordion thread to talk about this stuff since it's starting to look like there are more accordion people around here than I originally suspected. Since I'm so isolated, accordion-wise, I could probably learn a lot of good stuff.

Re: jigijig. Is that a proposition?

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 01:23 AM

SINSULL, if your fortune cookie is empty that means you get to make one up.
Don't forget to add the interpretation key on the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Brendy
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 01:49 AM

Skipjack.

This is all very interesting. Go for it, man. I've seen a few of these boats, and if I can come across any pictures or other info on them I'll start a new thread, 'cos I'm sure other people may want to know about this.

Trondheim's not all that far from Oslo (if you're flying there *BG*), and it was there that I have seen these boats.

I take it that you've already contacted the person who made the first post on that forum, and that things are underway. If there's anything I can help with from here, give me a shout, and I'll do my best.

There are a lot of pleasure boats in this country; most of them of the cruiser type, and the upwardly mobile tend to go for the Fibreglass and Chrome. This leaves just a few of the more traditionally minded boat enthusiasts, well in the minority...and there's a lot of spare boats out there, as a result.

If you do buy one of these, the chances are you will have to come here to collect it. And if you do that, for God's sake let me know. Dinner and a pint or two on me, no probs; myself and herself would love to have you, and a few tunes to boot.

I'll look into this a bit more, and if I come up with anything I'll start a thread...or you could initiate one yourself.
You could start a fad - 'Save The Old Norwegian Fishing Boats'!!!

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: okthen
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 04:18 AM

if anyone is interested in a serious psychic experiment, please think of the following six numbers, between the time 7:55 and 8:05 GMT (2:55 - 3:05 EST) on saturday 26th august '00

4 14 19 28 35 44

i've tried on my own with little success, and had better results when i didn't think of them at all! but if i "try not to think of them" i find myself thinking of them.

i'll try anything once, four numbers might even pay my (£90-$135 )internet bill for this month.

i'll let you know how i got on, if i post from the caribean you'll know anyway.

cheers

bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Brendy
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 04:27 AM

Ok then.

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 04:55 AM

Brendy,

Getting the backing from a UK museum has been a stumbling block, but I've got some progress in that direction, so it's still sub judice at the moment. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the kind offer, that's several thousands Krona's worth as far as I can calculate. How do you guys afford to live?

Carol

When you get your arms round an Italian box, the sound will be so soft and sweet you'll chop in your Hohner as sure as death and taxes. Any make with an "i" on the end should do. In my opinion, the old East German Galotta is too closely related to the Hohner, and if you are offered a Parrot, run a mile, it's Chinese. There are also Delicia boxes around, but I don't personally rate them. I'm sounding super knowledgeable, but I know diddly, just the sum of my own limited experiences. My advice in summary is if you make the box make a sound you like, buy, or steal it.

Jigijig ............ yes, virtually!

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: okthen
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 05:44 AM

thanks brendy, i should have anticipated that!

P.S. that's P.M.

cheers

bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Brendy
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 05:57 AM

Roger and that

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Troll
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 08:00 AM

Somebody said that it's 98% of the accordion platers that give the rest a bad name. >BG<

Actually, I like accordion. It's a great instrument for Klezmer.

What's the difference between an accordion and a banjo?

The accordion is pre-pleated for easier cutting.

I must go now. My work here is done.

troll

Skipjack: Luck with the boat.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Helen
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 08:56 PM

Wolfgang said: "the question that can easily be proved or disproved if you'd care is whether the connection you see is based on reality or originates from that great pattern generating 'machine' between your ears. It' s your choice whether you want to adhere to absurd (i.e.: not based on reality) beliefs"

I don't think that any person can definitively state what reality is. Scientists try to discover what reality is and the best they can do is conduct experiments to prove certain theories. Then along comes another experiment and another leap of deduction and the previous theories all have to be checked out again to make sure they still hold true.

Reality is bigger than any one of us, and for one person to claim to know what reality is is absurd. All you can say, in truth, is that psychic phenomena have never been *proved to your satisfaction* but not that psychic phenomena do not actually occur.

Check out the experiments being done by the Russian and American governments in trying to harness psychic abilities. They are taking it seriously enough to actually experiment with it in controlled circumstances, and appear to be having some good results. (On the other side of this case, though, some psychics like me would not want to be involved in military experiments so, either consciously or sub-consciously, my abilities would be reduced to less than maximum capacity for ethical reasons.)

I agree about recognition of patterns - some people are more attuned to this, and in my case it adds extra weight to my psychic intuition, or in other cases certain body language or tone of voice patterns are the main devices by which I make my deductions, but other people around me often miss making the same deductions because they don't look for these patterns consciously or unconsciously. E.g. deducing whether someone is lying or telling the truth can be made a lot easier by looking at body language and listening to tone of voice.

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 09:08 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 01:15 AM

Holy smoke! I missed a lot of stuff here in the last few days, didn't I?

Hesperis made some obscure references to fortune cookies...here's the technique...take almost any fortune cookie you get, open it up, eat it, read the fortune. Whatever the fortune says, add the words "in bed" to the end of it. This is the patented Little Hawk method for improving Chinese fortunes. Last week I got one that said "you are never afraid to learn something new"...in bed. Works like a charm almost every time!

Yes, there are all sorts of aspects of reality occurring around us all the time that most people are utterly oblivious to. I, for instance, am almost oblivious to the TV show "Survivor", but have been vaguely aware of its existence at times, because of other people's belief systems.

Reality is whatever you think it is. Accordingly, everyone has a slightly different concept of reality. The things that most of us kind of agree on are considered common knowledge. Those things can change.

Science applies certain forms of empirical testing and observation and repeatable experiment to determine the nature of reality. So do we all. That's how we learn to walk and to chew food for instance. Scientists get into it in a more technical fashion, using a lot of manufactured tools to do it. Fine. Jesus did it without tools by using a clearly superior method. I can't prove that, of course, you would have to actually be there and see him do it to have proof.

I have seen at least 2 miracles in this life. They occurred at most unexpected moments when I was not looking for them, but when they were NEEDED. That is proof to me that there is a form of higher spiritual power that aids people in time of need.

Science is thus far incapable of apprehending or recognizing that higher power in any way. Thus far. That could always change. We'll see.

The chair is indeed simply a bunch of swirling packets of energy, organized in a certain fashion. You can use it as a chair if you know it's a chair. If you don't know that, you might still sit on it, but you wouldn't know it was a chair. You might think of it merely as a meaningless object. It's not meaningless to the builder, however, who knows perfectly well that it is a chair, and what it is for. Therein lies the meaning behind all things. Creative intelligence has made all that is. It appears chaotic only to one who does not see the purpose in its creation.

I see God, the Great Spirit, She, the Maker in the weave and pattern of all reality.

Take away all the churches. They don't matter. Burn the Bibles. Remove the conventional forms. Take a breath. You are there. So is God, He, She, the Maker. So it is.

Unless it isn't. That's entirely up to you. That's freedom of will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Escamillo
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 01:29 AM

Helen, as far as I know, all governmental and University experiments, civil and military, have given no results, or at least no better results than pure guess.

Scientist don't say that things don't exist, they only say that those things have not been proved. The problem is that many people insist in their existence far beyond all experiments in the contrary, so scientists finally get bored, archive those subjects, and dedicate to something more promising. When nobody can prove or disprove the existence of something, the discussion becomes sterile. However when somebody proves that his/her methods to explain the unexplained are intrinsically useful (for example a technique for the characterization of people through voice or gesture, or a new method for illness diagnosis) then THAT'S interesting.

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 02:20 AM

Or else it isn't. That's free will. Pretty cool, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Helen
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 03:37 AM

Andrés said: "However when somebody proves that his/her methods to explain the unexplained are intrinsically useful (for example a technique for the characterization of people through voice or gesture, or a new method for illness diagnosis) then THAT'S interesting."

Just in the last few weeks I have seen two media articles: One about a system for looking at people standing on train stations and predicting if they are likely to jump under a train - based on body language and movements, and the other about detecting a person's serious intention to commit suicide based on the tone and quality of their voice. Both articles were about scientific experiments which have recently been conducted.

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: sledge
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 05:03 AM

Catalogues of voice index and body languauge don't sound very psychic to me, more like plodding scientific methodology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Escamillo
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 06:38 AM

I have a theory of my own, about politicians being interviewed in TV news : when they unnecessarily scratch an ear or head while answering a question, they are blatantly LYING. (Proven when the truth arises some weeks later). However, when they don't scratch anything, there's a high probability they are lying too.

Helen, a good method for analysing that body language or voice tone, can save lives !

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: okthen
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 03:27 PM

well it didn't work this time

will try again next wednesday at 9pm GMT

cheers

bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 04:58 PM

Ya know Andres, Cletus, Paw, Buford, and the Reg boys ALL scratch a lot but they ain't scratchin' their ears!!! Do you have any idea what their body language means?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Helen
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 07:33 PM

Andrés

You're right about politicians, although two Oz Prime Ministers - including the current one - have distinctive tones in their voice which makes it impossible for me to listen to them. I feel the lies in their voices so strongly that it is almost painful to listen to them.

Sledge, if you read what I said at 25-Aug-00 - 08:56 PM about Wolfgang's comment on pattern recognition you'll see that I agree with you, but that a lot of people I know don't use the pattern recognition in daily life and so it seems a bit miraculous when other people who do use it can "jump to conclusions" which are proven to be close to the mark. The same applies to the scientific method. It's of no use if it is not actually being used. Computers do the drudgery, though, after the process has been developed by humans.

The two articles I referred to are in a magazine called The New Scientist - it may be an international magazine or it may only be available in Oz, I'm not sure. I will check the dates and get back to you, but the articles were both only recent, in the last couple of months.

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:13 PM

Well, yeah, there are probably 3 legitimate ways of attacking any line of inquiry:

1. linear logical thinking (the common scientific method)

2. relational or circular thinking (simultaneously following many different lines of awareness and observation, all of which interrelate)...really good military strategy generally requires this. You find it in really good science too. Or really good anything.

3. Instantly grasping the truth (called "intuition", "gut feeling", "I just know it")

All of the above can work...or not work...depending on who's doing it, when, and where.

Number 1 is good for verifying an established conclusion...usually.

'Nuff said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Escamillo
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 11:56 PM

Spaw, do they intentionally show to you those parts they are scratching ? If they do, the meaning is pretty different to that when they simply scratch. For example Giménez (our dog officer) expresses very well his dislike when I tell him "Giménez, please come for your bath"

Un abrazo - Andrés (oops.. thread creep again)


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: GUEST,Helen (using IE)
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 07:10 PM

One of the articles I referred to is in the New Scientist magazine, 19 August, 2000, p. 17, and it is called Voice From the Grave: People likely to commit suicide have a distinctive tone of voice.

I'm still looking for the other one.

I agree with you, Little Hawk, about different ways to follow a line of inquiry. The way I often do it is to use option 1 to investigate/analyse the situation, then actively look for any intiuitive messages at the same time as the relational or circular thinking, then after I have made any intuitive leaps (option 3) or connective/conceptual leaps (option 2) go back to option 1 to check the facts against my deductions. Often I find that the deductions or possible solutions that I have arrived at through options 2 & 3 correlate nicely against the facts of option 1. But I use all three methods in combination. I consciously use all of these methods in business and work situations because I find I can attack a lot of problems or issues very effectively. Often I think I have an advantage over other people at work who only tend to attack problems using one method.

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: The Beanster
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 09:31 PM

I've had my share of strange things happen; grew up in a haunted house of which I have countless stories to tell. And I went through a period of a few weeks as a teenager when I kept having dreams that would come true the next day. Then they stopped until the night John Lennon was shot. And this is tooo coincidental to be coincidence--and it's not my maleable memory weaving tall tales (because I wrote it down write after it happened).

I live in Manhattan and was taking a nap after coming home from work. I had a little snippet of a dream where there were two men on a dark street (I could only tell that they were males, nothing else). One shot the other and I knew the victim was dead or soon would be. Then a third man came up and quite upset, said to the shooter, "Do you know what you've done?!"

It woke me up. So I reached for the remote and turned on the TV. Maybe 5, 10, 15 minutes into the show I was watching, the local news anchor came on and said that Lennon had just been shot outside the Dakota. My eyes bugged out--not so much because he'd been shot but because I may have just seen it happen! Later on, on the news, I heard that a guy had been walking down the street just as it happened and he stopped and said to the shooter, "Do you know what you just did?! You just shot John Lennon!" It may have even been an erroneous report but let me tell you, my hair stood on end.

So yeah, I believe there are things that actually ARE occurring that we just don't have the brainpower to understand. But also, I think a lot of this type of stuff teeters on the brink of delusions of reference (in my psychobabble lingo). It's nice to think that we have some control over things (clouds?--they disappear on their own) which actually, we probably do not.

It's also nice to think that our dead loved ones come back and say howdy once in a while. I don't think they do, but that's just my opinion. It would be nice, I'll give you that, but since there is no scientific evidence of this, I'll have to reserve my final judgment. But I do think it's a matter of to-each-their-own when people believe this stuff. Like someone else mentioned, it's such a human thing--our brains are designed to try to make order out of chaos. I think that's kind of neat. Always trying to solve the puzzles. It's served us well so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 11:03 PM

Helen - beautifully said. That's the way to do it. All three methods in tandem, if at all possible.

General comment to all - it's damned hard to provide physical evidence for something that is in no way physical in the first place. Spiritual phenomena probably fall into that category, and I've seen some spiritual phenomena. They simply are not provable, nor can they be simulated or repeated under controlled conditions...as far as I know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Troll
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 11:14 PM

Read the Skeptical Inquirer Beanster. This months edition has a article that deals with just the thing that you experienced.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: The Beanster
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 12:10 AM

Really Troll? I will. I hope I can find one. I would love to have this explained and I hope it's not something I've already considered and rejected... Will let you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Troll
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 12:38 AM

If you can't, let me know. I'll try to find out if it's on line and, if necessary, I'll send the article. You may not care for the conclusions they reached but it is thought provoking.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: robroy
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 05:18 AM

I know people are gonna jump but I always thought it was inexplicable!

Robroy


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Troll
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 07:23 AM

'Course it is but thats never stopped us from trying!

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 09:07 AM

I too used to be quite sceptical, until I had a strange experience......................

Walking past a hotel in London a couple of years ago, I saw a sign "Psychics Convention, 27 March, 09.00" So, I returned on the appointed day, only to see another sign reading "Convention cancelled due to unforseen circumstances" Explain that! ;o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 02:56 PM

Oh...I like that. We should launch a government inquiry and get to the bottom of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 03:13 PM

Sounds like a job for for a proctologist LH. Or maybe we could assign it to the brilliant Major Tom.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: JamesJim
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 01:20 AM

I can't explain this, but I've often wondered what happened to Preparation A through G?????

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 10:00 AM

Helen, I have two issues with your post from 25-Aug-00 - 08:56 PM:

I don't think that any person can definitively state what reality is
you write and avoid the issue. Last weak we had many sightings of a lion in a German wood. Wrong perception or reality (there are circuses and zoos near there, so it is possible)? It matters for the walkers over there and the question 'is the animal real or imagined' cannot be answered satisfactorily by your above statement. If we two had a car crash and you had a green light and I'd say 'Well, for me, my light was green, that's my reality and you can't tell me that your reality is any better, for even scientists don't agree on that concept' you'd take me to court for I bet you believe in your daily life that there is a reality out there and that a court has at least a chance to find it out.

Check out the experiments being done by the Russian and American governments in trying to harness psychic abilities. They are taking it seriously enough to actually experiment with it in controlled circumstances, and appear to be having some good results.
If you're speaking about military research (as I understood you) that's one of the myths you often read when you only read the pro side. There has been scarcely any empirical research (compared to other areas) from the military funds (they pay now and then a bit on the off chance to get something spectacular for nearly no investment) and it has not had any good results.
If you want to read something real on that issue, I cite from 'Enhancing Human Performance', D. Druckman, J. A. Swets, Editors, the report of a committee of the National Academy of Science (US) asked by the Army Research Institute to "examine the potential value of certain techniques that have been proposed to enhance human performance". In their summary on the paranormal phenomena, especially parapsychology, they write:
"...the bulk of the work does not meet the standards necessary to contribute to the knowledge base of science...
the best scientific evidence does not justify the conclusion that...gathering information...without the intervention of known sensory mechanisms exists...
The committee is aware of the discrepancy between the lack of scientific evidence and the strength of many individuals' beliefs in paranormal phenomena...
Many proponents believe that the scientific method may be not the ...most appropriate method for establishing the reality of paranormal phenomena. Unfortunately, the alternative methods...create just those conditions that psychologists have found to enhance human tendencies toward self-deception and suggestibility"
Now that's a bit of research sponsored by the army.

Now let me tell you what would convince me beyond any reasonable doubt. If there'd be just one consistently repeatable experimental result. If I lecture about perception, memory, attention or what else I can make classrooms demonstrations for many findings. That is the students don't have to believe me, they can see for themselves. It works. After 120 years of research on psi or ESP there's not a single classroom demonstration that works.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: sophocleese
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 10:50 AM

Wolfgang, I have been reading this thread, the one about Astrological stats and the Crop Circles thread with great interest. I really appreciate your posts. They say what I would like to with greater clarity and elegance. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 07:36 PM

Wolfgang,

Would you mind telling us what your field of expertise is, and what it is that you teach?

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 06:21 AM

Carol,
I've studied physics, made my PhD in psychophysics and am now professor for psychology (teaching mostly 'research methods' and 'cognitive engineering', sometimes 'general psychology'; doing research mostly on errors of reasoning and illusions of memory).
Quite a way from physics to psychology, I know, but from my point of view I never left 'science' as a method of inquiry.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 04:02 PM

Wolfgang,

You talk about science with such religious fervor, I can't help thinking that you must really love what you do. We should all be so lucky.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 05:37 PM

My general impression is that we definitely CAN state what reality is when we're dealing with the mundane, and CAN'T when we're not.

Physical reality, that is, being pretty obvious and mundane, while spiritual and much of what might be called emotional reality is not.

It's vitally important to know whether or not a physical lion is present...so don't think that when I say "mundane" I mean "unimportant". Quite the contrary.

Has there been a carefully conducted classroom demonstration of falling in love that works? I don't think so. It remains a mystery, but we all do it at one time or another and have had the experience (utterly unique in every case), so it is real. It is not, however, quantifiable, measurable, verifiable, repeatable or anything like that. It's not mundane, but it is real. It's subjective, not objective.

The purpose of science (I think) is to describe and explain the objective...things which have form. The purpose of spiritual philosophy is to describe and explain the subjective...things which do not have form. (And the purpose of religion is to enslave and regiment the minds of its followers...generally...for material gain...but that's another issue.)

The objective exists in time. The subjective is timeless.

There is no reason for a dispute between science and spirituality. In fact, they ought to make excellent partners, and are the two sides of the coin, so to speak.

Wolfgang is superb at presenting the scientific view of things. And that's good.

When I present the spiritual view of things, I am in no way opposed to Wolfgang, I'm just talking about something else, that's all.

It gets tricky at times, though, because of the limitations of spoken language. If we could share pure thought I think it would be understood right away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: The Beanster
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 09:06 PM

Wolfgang,

What is psychophysics?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Sourdough
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 09:39 PM

I forget the details now but I did a story around 1970 on a scientific organization that had just been admitted, on a provisional basis, to the American Association for the Advancement of Science. AAAS is a very prestigious organization with membership that includes the American Physoical Society, the American Chemical Society, and virtually every every scientic society from Athropology to Zoology. What made this a story was the new group was The American Paranormal Society. AAAS felt that it was time to bring in this organization and see that experiments were conducted with rigor. In return, the paranormal experimenters were able to use the significant cachet of at least conditional acceptance by AAAS.

I remember one activity they were conducting was a telepathy experiment in which they had a "transmitter" in Washington, DC and "receivers" in cities across the US and the world. The idea was to see if there was an element of time or distance in the transmission of images. They were even hoping to get NASA to cooperate.

The president of the society was very hopeful that as a member of the AAAS, they would get the respect they deserved and be able to raise the money for the experiments that would prove the efficacy of some methodology of paranormality.

I haven't heard anything from that society. There has been no announcement of their discoveries in the AAAS journal, Science, which would have been delighted to report on success.

I think it was the same group that tried to repeat a sleep experiment which was an out-of-body experience. People, during sleep, were reporting the ability to travel and see things going on in other places. They reported rising to the top of the room and seeing the scene below.

A rigorous experiment was set up in which things were placed out of sight of the sleeper in the room. They could only see the test objects from a point of view not reachable by standing, even on furniture. The result was that the "best" subjects had a 100% failure rate.

Not much support for the paranormal here.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 10:41 PM

There is what looks to be an interesting paper by a PhD. candidate at Boston University on Science, Mataphysics, and Worldviews which looked as though it touched on some of which has been in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Helen
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 10:51 PM

Wolfgang,

When I said "definitively state what reality is" I meant comprehensively, knowing everything there is to know about reality. I certainly didn't mean that nothing could be defined as reality. If you had read the rest of that paragraph you should realise that I was talking about scientific theories and experiments which can make sense of a lot of what happens here on earth, and elsewhere to some extent, but which also have to be reevaluated in the light of other discoveries and deductions. Your example of a red light and green light is off the topic in relation to what I said.

I'll repeat what I said: Reality is bigger than any one of us, and for one person to claim to know what reality is is absurd. No single human or even group of humans can claim to know all there is to know about reality. The world always has surprises in store for people who think they have found a definitive answer to a question, but that is what makes life on earth interesting. It would be a boring life, in my opinion, to know everything there is to know and not be able to discover anything new.

Little Hawk,

I like your distinctions between the mundane and the spititual, emotional etc.

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: kendall
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 05:50 AM

It is well known that some primitive tribes know how to die. When they have had enough, they just sit down and die. How do they do the? How can I learn the art? By the way Spaw, you definitly have the talent to write. Now, if you could just find a subject above the waste LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 07:22 AM

kendall,

I agree with you about Spaw being a good writer. Though I think he's not so much in the vein of Jean Sheppard, as he says he is. I think he's really more of an aromatic Garrison Keillor.

And he has found a subject that is above the waist. Only above women's waists, though.) ; )

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 11:59 AM

Beanster,
a definiton from the web: Psychophysics is commonly defined as the quantitative branch of the study of perception, examining the relations between observed stimuli and responses and the reasons for those relations.
That is, you vary an objective value of a stimulus (intensity, size, distance, colour,...) and ask the observer to 'tell' you about the subjective side (perceived intensity; which of two stimuli seems larger; match two stimuli to have subjectively equal colour;...).

kat,
yes I can see the relevance of that link to a Christian fundamentalist to the discussion here. He says:
In conclusion, then, our Christianity does come to bear in our thought processes. It forms a central part of our worldview and is an organizing principle of experience. ... Indeed it is a task of the utmost importance for the intellectual Christian to develop and to show the consistency of a Christian worldview... which reflects the timeless, absolute truths of the Gospel in our unique culture and generation.
Good example how faith comes first and determines what is then admissed as truth.

Helen,
I stated that a certain claim (on cloud busting) could be tested whether it was real (based on reality) or imaginary. It was a claim about an observable relationship which is definitely within the realm of science. You cited my statement and went on that nobody can "definitely state what reality is". For me that was nothing but using words as a smokescreen in order to obfuscate a simple issue.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: The Beanster
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 09:31 PM

Thanks, Wolfgang. Must be very interesting stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 10:31 PM

What say we now launch a couple of new threads...

"Explaining the not very well explained"

and...

"Explaining the Inexplicable" Ha!

Who wants to take the plunge?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 12:54 AM

How about one for those of us who acknowledge and believe we have experienced the unexplainable..."Accepting the unexplainable?"

Without ridicule or analytical disdain?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 08:16 AM

There is something in the human personality that can't stand an unsolved mystery. I'm quite comfortable saying "I don't know why that happened,"

Jeri wrote in a post above, short and to the point.

In three words: Accepting the unexplained,
however, not Accepting the unexplainable. I can find no fault with the first formulation.

'Unexplainable' rules out that there might be an explanation well known but not to you; that there is an explanation which is not known yet, but will be entirely scientific if it's known; that there is a completely down to earth explanation which may never be found;(and many more)...what you have in mind is only one single of several possibilities.

Go on, but you'll have to stand analytical comment.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Helen
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 07:33 PM

Wolfgang,

I find it surprising that you have stated that I have been obfuscating and that you then say in your last post something very similar to what I was saying.

To make myself clear: Just because a scientist has not yet proven some thing or a phenomenon to exist or to be true does not mean that that thing or phenomenon does not exist or is not true. What has not yet been proven is not necessarily impossible. There have been numerous occasions in history when scientists have argued vehemently that a thing or a phenomenon cannot possibly be true because the scientists haven't yet found the tools or the information they need yet to find the truth. The history of human flight engines, and the history of the study and use of electricity are two examples.

Psychic phenomena have not been proven scientifically to exist or be true to the satisfaction of some people, and I welcome the scientific methods which can examine these phenomena in controlled scientific studies, however, I do not welcome scientific attitudes which are applying, as katlaughing said, analytical disdain on these phenomena and on the people who have experienced them.

For my own part, I agree with the sentiments expressed by some people in this thread that I don't care whether other people believe me or not about the psychic experiences I have had. I know what I have experienced, I am not gullible and rushing to believe what I want to believe, I have tested the experiences and I have also worked towards making my psychic abilities more controllable and specific.

It may be that many people who have had psychic experiences also don't care whether scientists do or don't believe in the existence of these phenomena and therefore they do not feel compelled to prove anything in scientific experiments. Maybe it's like trying to find a badger or a Tasmanian Tiger. Maybe the animal prefers to live its own life in peace and prefers not to become the subject of scientific study.

I know that my life and experience have been made far richer and deeper because of my psychic abilities and experiences and I would not trade that for anything.

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: little john cameron
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 08:07 PM

Jist got back fae a road trip an am catchin up wi the unexplained.Orgonomy.http://www.orgonelab.org/e_articl.htm

Worth a look for them wi "clouded" vision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: little john cameron
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 08:20 PM

OOPS Here's the cloud bit>br>
http://www.orgonelab.org/AIBC.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 09:59 PM

Point taken, "unexplained" is fine with me, Wolfgang.

I do agree with what Helen said, very well put, Helen, thank you.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 10:09 PM

Good to hear from you, Little John. I was actually beginning to get worried about you. This place does tend to become like an extended family...which means, sadly, that a person can get hurt here sometimes too...as well as all the good aspects.

Someone said awhile back in another thread that we start out by idolizing our parents and end up by despising them (or something like that). How about our lovers? Or our business partners? Or our neighbours? Or the other band members (in the case of musicians)? Or our friends?

As Dylan said, "The foreign sun it squints upon a bed that is never mine, while friends and other strangers from their fates try to resign, leaving men wholly totally free to do anything they wish to do but die, and there are no trials inside the Gates of Eden.

How I long for the Gates of Eden.

Is this why porcupines grow quills, and armadillos have armour? Explain that, someone. I do not mind a joke being at my expense...as long as it was not with harmful intention.

Anyway, I am glad that you are back.

I don't particularly care whether or not scientists believe in some of the extraordinary things I have seen either. There will always be mysteries. The fact that we are here at all is one of them. It never ceases to amaze me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Escamillo
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 10:44 PM

Helen and Kat, "analytical disdain" is an oxymoron, a phrase that is contradictory in itself, like "military intelligence" or "professional programmer" :)

If we are influenced by a feeling of disdain, we better don't analyze the thing, for our results will be biased and probably wrong. And this is what probably happened in some experiments conducted by scientists, leaving the impression that psychic phenomena (or UFOs, or astrology) have not been correctly analyzed. However, there have been many clean and unbiased experiments with zero results.

Does this mean that the psychic phenomena don't exist ? NO. It says that they have not been proved, and therefore, it deserves no further investigation, until someone brings a new experience which can be controlled in a laboratory.

Does this mean that psychic events don't contribute to a better life por some persons ? NO. But it is a CONDITIONAL "NO". No, as far as that person don't rely on these phenomena to make decisions about his/her health or relatives' health, and s/he does not make money selling those beleifs to other people.

All these logic architecture will not convince you too much, but I would wish to obtain at least one point from you: please tell me that it is NOT correct to make money with the advice, teaching or any kind of services based upon theories that have been proven wrong by science, or could not be proved true.

Once we agree in that point, then we could argue about the benefits and the risks of the unexplained things, can we begin to agree ? :)

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Metchosin
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 11:26 PM

A short anecdote to add to this lengthy thread....

A number of years ago, my sister-in-law's brother, home alone one sunny afternoon, was confronted by a ball of light that exited a light socket, travelled just above the floor towards him, then veered sharply and reentered another light socket.

Being a child of the Disney Age and somewhat reluctant to accept that God had exited a light socket, Michael was firmly convinced he had been visited by Tinkerbell. He kept his eerie experience to himself for many years, as he was even more reluctant to admit to his belief in fairies.

A few years ago he was watching a TV programme on ball lightning and finally realized the probable cause of his visitation. Although relieved that he felt he could finally could talk about his experience with the phenomenom, it was not without a trace of wistfulness.

His experience always made me wonder what would have happenened if the ball of light hadn't veered? Another case of spontaneous combustion perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 12:50 AM

Andres, I don't think analytical disdain is at all an oxymoron; it is something I've encountered much in my life. I have an innate sense of things that, to me, are Truth. There has been some ridicule and disdain in this thread and others towards those of us who believe in and have experienced phenomena which cannot be explained by *science*.

I have written and re-written this posting several times lest someone pick it apart and not just accept it as what is true and right for me.

Ultimately, I think, it doesn't matter to most people what scienctists think of such things. People take the same kind of chances every day with modern medicine and pay oodles of money on radiation and other *chances* at curing cancer, etc. A good doctor, like mine, will admit when they do not know whether a treatment will work or not; so, it comes back to what one wants to put their faith in.

Personally, I am honour bound not to charge for any help I may be able to give. I believe that in giving, we also receive.

Thank you,

kat

PS, ljc...good to see ya!


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 02:03 AM

Andres - "No, as far as that person don't rely on these phenomena to make decisions about his/her health" ...

A few years ago, I had an accident.
I slipped on ice that was hidden under snow, came down on my knee,my other knee, and then my hands.
I tried to get up, and my knee felt like it slid inside the socket.
The people who had given me a ride home had driven off already. I was 25 feet from the door. I walked in pain to the door, opened it, got inside, and fainted in the hallway.
By the time I came to, my leg was swollen. A friend who was staying at our house helped me up the stairs to my room and got my mother.
(I have a revulsion to hospitals, and I refuse to go to them. This may be irrational, but I don't care, it is a part of who I am. That story is too long to tell here. Just bear with me, please.)
My mother said she would go get me an aspirin, and I barked at her, "NO!"
She was very startled, understandably, and tried to get me to take an aspirin and go to the hospital. I refused both, said that I was fine, it was only a torn cartilege and then said that I would take an acetominophen in order to sleep. I would miss school the next day, and would go back the following day.

People at school tried to argue me into seeing a doctor, and I refused. I wrapped my leg in bandages, and walked. At first, my leg was bent at about 100 degrees, and wouldn't straighten without hurting badly, but slowly it straightened out.
Now (about five years later, which is normal for this type of wound,) it only twinges a bit in rain, snow, or very high humidity.

Three years or so after the accident, I went to see a doctor about it. It was torn cartilege, nothing more, and aspirin would have inflamed the wound. Acetominophen was fine.

How did I know the name of my wound, the treatment that did in fact work for it, and that aspirin would have been dangerous?
Something in me knew.
I don't know how.

hesperis


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Escamillo
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 02:40 AM

You were lucky, Hesperis.:) When my elder son Mariano broke his left knee cartileges when jumping from a wall, he had to go to the surgeon. But the point that appears to me as most important in this discussion (which was intended as hilarious and became serious) is this:

Would you now accept that you have some psychic power to diagnose illnes or injuries, and then offer your services to people as an alternative medicine, for a modest charge ?

I would like a definition on this matter as a starting point in a discussion that needs a second part (almost 200 posts is too heavy to download) - any volunteer ?

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 03:21 AM

I would count on my personal judgement for my personal health.
I would not set myself up as a healer for others.
(Although I have taken the pain away from minor injuries for friends, when they asked me.)
If I did, I would not charge anything for it. I would possibly accept barter, though. (But that is my personal choice.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Sourdough
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 03:22 AM

Hesperis, To go back to the idea of Occam's Razor.

Can you understand how someone else, with a different bent for explanation, might think that

you might have applied your feelings of what was going on with your joint to the anatomical knowledge you had picked up; a basic understanding that the structure of the knee joint involves cartilidge where the bones come together?

you might have been subconsciously aware that asprin causes bleeding which is one of the advantages of acetominophin, it doesnt. It is why aspirin are buffered. Many would feel that this knowledge is not restricted to the medical specialties?

Do you think someone without a knowledge of the rough outline of how a knee joint is constructed would have felt the same way you did?

For me, it seems less of a stretch to go that route for an explanation than to invoke ideas that have never been confirmed under controlled circumstances.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 03:33 AM

Yeah, Sourdough, that makes sense.
Insticts are from the subconscious, and I was out of my mind with pain at the time.
Reacting on a purely subconscious level to the stimuli, I guess.
But I didn't know that about aspirin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Alice
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 11:15 AM

Check out FLIM FLAM, by James Randi, introduction by Isaac Asimov, quote Asimov ""Folly and Fakery has never before been as dangerous as it is now".

It seems to me that in this age of information, people are not well prepared to sort through misinformation and fraud, to reason and be able to use critical thinking.

Other books by James Randi are "An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural", introduction by Arthur C. Clarke, "The Faith Healers", by James Randi and Carl Sagan, "The Mask of Nostradamus" by Randi. "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan is another good one on this subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Sourdough
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 01:06 PM

I second that recommendation of Randi. He is a magician and so is also an entertainer. As a result, his demonstrations of alternate explanations of the paranormal are interesting and fun as well as informative. I don't believe he says that the paranormal does not exist. His point is that so muuch of what people use to prove the paranormal can be explained by other means.

His best known example is Uri Geller who is best remembered for his bending spoons and making making broken clocks run again. What Randi shows in his demonstration is how easily non-professional (non-magician) observors can be fooled and that scientists, who are totally unprepared for sleight of hand are easily hoodwinked. His explanation of broken clocks and watches running again (a natural phenomonon, notslight of hand) all over Great Britain after Geller appeared on television is a good lesson of how there can be other explanations of an unusual event besides fraud or parapsychological power.

I have an acquintance, a physician, who is very intersted in alternative therapies. He was among the first to use acupuncture in his part of California. He also led a group of practicing physicians as they looked at auras, osteopathy, vitamin supplements and other things that thirty years ago were considered "far out". He was ridiculed but he kept pointing out that physicians do not do such a wonderful job of healing that they can afford not to look at alternative methods that claim to be getting results. As you might expect, some things worked, somethings didn't and some they weren't sure of because they needed larger numbers of people to try them on.

He is an example of what I admire in an inquisitive mind. First, he is inquisitive, second he is skeptical. Skepticism is a valuable attribute in a physician. I don't think any of us would like a doctor who tries things out on us or a sick relative because he heard from a verysincere person that a cure such as sleeping on marigold petals will cure leukemia. That's why, when he heard of "psychic surgery" in the Philippines, he went there to look at it. He had heard anecdotal reports of people benefitting greatly from non-invasive surgery at the hands of a group of psychic physicians. These people claimed to be able to remove cancers and other things through reaching into the body (without opening it) and removing the offensive tumor, growth, etc. As a physician, when he attended a a series of such operations, he recognized immediately that the procedure was a hoax but he was struck by how much better the patient claimed to feel and there was evidence that some patients actually seemed to be cured. His professional interest, from that time on, became how *belief* can affect healing. In other words, he saw faith healing as a possibility, not because of the intervention of an outside power but because of individual, internalized, beliefs.

AS a result, he did not spend the rest of his career studying how to become a psychic surgeon but how to adpapt his own practice of medicine to take advantage of the forces he had come to respect for their power. He blended what he had learned in the Philippines with what he had learned in his medical school education and his practice of medicine.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Alice
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 01:39 PM

Sourdough, I think I mentioned this in another thread, not sure if it is in this one, but another good book recently published on this topic is "How We Believe" by Dr. Michael Shermer., a social scientist. His examination of why people make a particular belief choice is really interesting.

To quote from the preface, "Since humans are storytelling animals, a deeper aspect of the God Question involves the origins and purposes of myth and religion in human history and culture, the subject of the seventh, eighth, and ninth chapters. Why is there is an eternal return of certain mythic themes in religion, such as messiah myths, flood myths, creation myths, destruction myths, redemption myths, and end of the world myths? What do these recurring themes tell us about the workings of the human mind and culture? What can we learn from these myths beyond the moral homilies offered in their narratives? What can we glean about ourselves as we gaze into these mythic mirrors of our souls? When we began the Skeptics Society and Skeptic magazine in 1992 we adopted a quote from the seventeenth-century theologian and philosopher Baruch Spinoza: "I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them." When it comes to religion it is especially difficult for any of us to apply this principle consistently. But if we do the moral dilemma of how to discuss the God Question without offense may be resolved.

Here is a website where you can read excerpts from the book.How We Belive.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Sourdough
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 02:29 PM

Alice -

"How We Believe" - That is a very interesting site. Thanks for putting in a "BCT" to take us there. Some of the samples of Shermer's writing are intriguing - the purpose of magical (non-rational) "thinking", his choice of those funny parts of a baroque church's ceilings as a starting point for an explanation of a kind of thought-error, are very clear.

I am curious whether or not Wolfgang is familiar with it. Once again - Thanks

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: hesperis
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 03:36 PM

LH - the predators exist, and that is why porcupines grow quills. That does not mean that everyone who hurts us does it on purpose...
Are armadillos soft-bellied?
To my knowledge, porcupines can shed their quills, and armadillos don't shed their armour, but I may be wrong on the second count.

Quills can be used to make beautiful hings, and some humans create beauty when they shed their defenses...
In music, art, dance, laughter, and relationships.

Life itself is a miracle.
That it is so common around us is, perhaps, the greatest miracle of all.
Let's hear it for the sense of wonder!

~*sirepseh*~


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 05:28 PM

This has been a most interesting thread to me and I would welcome a continuation on a Part Two thread.

As the person who mistakenly- serendipitously?- turned this thread into a, as Escamillo said, serious rather than humorous subject (Hey! I happen to be a very literal person!), I would like to hear more first-person accounts of the unexplained (and not necessarily unexplainable). We all have had them.

The other day I asked my friend with whom I saw the 'cloud name' whether it's possible that she somehow created an image which I then absorbed- a hallucination, as it were. She does NOT think so; she says that she had no such possibility in her mind, that she, no more than I, was not thinking of the sky at all, that she was greatly relieved that I could see it too.

When I came home that day, I used a piece of chalk to draw the letters as I saw them: a huge E, an a, a tucked-in, slightly-tilted r and an l with a flourish back under the name. My friend, when she saw my drawing, said that the 'a' in the name the she saw was more upright than I showed it to be- the a I saw had a slightly long tail, as though it had drifted. So what we saw evidently was not identical.

I don't mind at all if a mudcatter tries to explain away what I saw- in fact, I would welcome it- I would like to have it explained. If you cannot explain it or maybe postulate some atmospheric phenomenon that could have caused it, I am free to agree with Sinsull and others that Earl made a quick detour!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Helen
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 06:23 PM

I've tried last night and this morning to create a second part of this thread but I get an error message and can't create it. I'll check the Help file and keep trying.

Andr‚s, I can't completely agree about not charging money for some of my abilities, but I have re-worked the process of Tarot readings so that the person is talking through their own life questions rather than relying on me to read the cards for them. I was not comfortable with telling people what I saw in the cards if I am not 100% sure of the accuracy of my readings. The messages I see in the cards are open to interpretation through my insights, so the margin for error is increased there too. By leading the other person through a structured process of reviewing their own lives I can work with their own insights of their lives.

I am confident that this process works well and has good results so I charge for it. I use my intuitive abilities as much as my logical and analytical abilities in this process. If I chose to offer Reiki as a service I would charge for that too, because I have checked it out and I am comfortable that there are benefits, even if only for relaxation and minimising stress, but I think it goes deeper than that too.

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 06:50 PM

A few nights before Mt. St. Helen's blew its stack, I had a particularly upsetting nightmare, where I was at home with my two small children and for some reason or other, was also taking care of a mentally handicapped person as well. All of a sudden there was a great rush of wind and when I looked out the window there was not a tree standing as far as the eye could see. I paniced and woke up when I realized that due to fallen timber, there was no way I could pack up the children and get out of the house, nor could my husband rescue me because of the blocked roads.

A couple of days later, when Mt. St. Helens let go, on the front of the newspaper was a photograph of the scene from my dream of downed forests stretching for miles. I had been expecting the impendig volcano to blow, but in my mind, I pictured lots of lava and smoke, not flattened forests..... Gave me goosebumps for some time......


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Helen
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 05:53 PM

Here is
part two of this thread, kindly started by katlaughing.

Please post to the other thread

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=25033&messages=10

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: Helen
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 05:56 PM

Darnit, blicky didn't work:


part two of this thread

Please post to the other thread

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=25033&messages=10

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: Explaining the Unexplained
From: GUEST,visitor
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:53 AM

Very interesting, to say the least.


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