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BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: thosp Date: 29 Aug 00 - 11:27 PM well it's sure been a mental difficulity for me! peace (Y) thosp |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Aug 00 - 11:09 PM Ah, yes, Biblius - fantasies... Like believing that voting for the present major political parties is going to actually change what's wrong with things in this society... Like believing that winning a million bucks on "Survivor" is a worthwhile objective... Like believing that life is hard and cruel and people are basically evil... Like believing that a university degree will make you wiser and more valuable than the person without one... Like believing that money will solve your problems... Like believing that the western Europeans brought civilization to the Americas... Yes, like you said, " individuals that have a compulsion to share these fantasies with others- in many cases complete strangers- exhibit very poor taste at best, and suffer from serious mental difficulties at worst... and are probably 'more to be pitied than censured'. " Just like you said. I agree entirely. (sarcasm, I hope you realize...)
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Aug 00 - 07:47 PM Back up the thread a ways Frank, that had been brought up, but I believe you just added one more additional that hadn't. Maybe we should send these in to somebody in one of the parties and have them respond.LOL(:<)) Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Frankham Date: 29 Aug 00 - 07:42 PM Hey everyone Woody Guthrie was there first with this idea. Check out "Mermaid Avenue". Woody wrote his lyric in about 1940's or so. I personally think Jesus was a socialist. Or a communist in the largest (not Bolshevik) sense of the word. I think that Woody thought so too. See his ballad of Jesus Christ as well as his Jesus For President song. I don't think Jesus would waste his time running for pres. He'd have to hit up some campaign finances that would go against his grain. If he ran, he wouldn't be elected anyway because not enough people are around to practice what he preached. Now Constantine or St. Thomas Acquinas, that's a different story. I thought it was an interesting idea. Woody was first. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Mbo Date: 28 Aug 00 - 08:05 PM To settle us all down: "Everyone should have something to believe in...I believe I'll go fishing." --Henry David Thoreau |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: GUEST,Biblius Date: 28 Aug 00 - 07:57 PM I support everyone's right to a rich fantasy life- sexual, religious, what have you. However, individuals that have a compulsion to share these fantasies with others- in many cases complete strangers- exhibit very poor taste at best, and suffer from serious mental difficulties at worst... and are probably 'more to be pitied than censured'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Aug 00 - 05:16 PM Hey Willie - Lakota Indians in the 1860's would probably have considered it a miracle of sorts to encounter an atheist! Ironical, ain't it? (They had probably never heard of such a concept...certainly not from their own people, anyway.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Willie-O Date: 28 Aug 00 - 02:46 PM I just read through this whole thread, which I have been avoiding as the number of posts suggested it was turning into a theology-slinging match, as indeed it has, sort of. I thought the Barrett Brown piece was durn funny, and I hope to see more of his writing in the future. It's called political satire, folks. It wouldn't be funny if it didn't ruffle a few feathers. And if everybody thought it was funny, it wouldn't be satire at all. It would be a freakin miracle. (Then I'd have to reassess my belief system, and that would just piss me off.) Many interesting personal takes have been revealed. Just amazes little old atheist me how many different passions are aroused by putting that JC guy in a different satirical context. I have a hard time figuring that out, particularly the question of how people in the year 2000 know what an Eastern mystic "really meant" two millennia ago. (And why it matters. It doesn't to me; obviously it matters very deeply to some of you, and others don't have a spiritual commitment to the question but think you know what he was about anyway. Not trying to be critical, as such--I just don't get ANY of it.) A bunch of personal remarks snipped here. Maybe I'll send a couple of personals. Maybe not... you never know with |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: TonyK Date: 27 Aug 00 - 11:34 PM I didn't think the article was funny or very well written and not because I disagree with his ideology. It was just a bunch of snippetts spewed out on the page and needed a lot of fine tuning. I think he should have stayed in school. Religion is a touchy one. I identify a lot with Joe and have been trying to make a difference in my parish in many ways for 14 years and have gotten little support. I caught myself editing the prayers said in Mass one day and realized I was in the wrong pew (take that any way you want). I'm now in the process of letting go of the old and seeking out a new group that's doing what I feel is the right stuff. It feels very right for me. I wish you well with yours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Aug 00 - 03:39 PM hesperis - "Do as you will and harm no one" Indeed, blessed be. Little Hawk Guest, Sgt. Major Raul - I understand your concerns perfectly, and share them. If you want to find the source of evil and misery in this world...just follow the money trail. Every time. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: JOHN BALL (Sydney Carter) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Aug 00 - 07:23 AM Well to me it read like the satire was aimed at the US political/media electoral circus.
And at the "Religious" Right - which should always be written with inverted commas, since so much of what they seem to stand for and try to associate with Christianity is totally at odds which the Beatitudes.
We don't have Sydney Carter songs on the DT, because of some hassle with his American publishers (probably down to Michael Flatley's bastardisation of the Lord of the Dance), but here's one anyway which sums it up pretty well:
Who'll be the lady
Eve is the lady,
Labour and spin
All shall be ruled
I know someone who used to join enthusiastically in that one, and thought it was John Paul, not John Ball, the priest from Thaxted in Essex who was executed from his part in the Peasant's Revolt. And at times it could indeed be John Paul (which doesn't mean I think he's on the ball all the time, but who is?) But I can't see it fitting in with the agenda of the "Religious" Right so far as I can see. But then I'm a long way away. Maybe they're being misrepresented... |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: hesperis Date: 27 Aug 00 - 04:26 AM I thought it was funny. In a too serious way of course, because in a way, it isn't funny that we would probably just crucify him again if he were actually here. The thought of Jesus running for President is actually, somewhat painful. Why do humans screw up his message? Why do we not have political leaders who actually live that deep and kind faith, and bring it into all levels of politics? Why do we continue to treat human beings with disrespect, and a lack of true caring, and worship money, and worship power over others? Terry Pratchett: "treating people as things, that's where it starts." That's where the problem starts. Why? Why do we keep doing that, even with his message before us? Although I am not Christian, many people assume that I am of that faith. I have a deep respect for Jesus Christ, as a person, a man, and a leader. Maybe that makes me a Christian, I don't know. What I do know, is that many of the beliefs that are common around me, I do not believe in, and I will not identify myself with those beliefs. I consider the practice of self-sacrifice, as practised in the Christian Church in general, to be extremely unhealthy... (But that's a whole other discussion. *g*) If I am with Christians who I know share my beliefs and my struggles to live those beliefs, then I will say I am a Christian, and they treat me as one of them, and I am one of them. "For he that is not against us is on our part." In the same way, unless I am with people who understand that Witches are people who a) don't even believe in the devil, much less worship it, b) don't do anything else of what the popular nightmare-making machine says they do, such as take over people's bodies or minds, fly on broomsticks, etc. ad nauseum, the movie "The Craft", bla, bla, bla, c) DO care for humanity and for the Earth we live in, I will not use the word 'Witch' unless I have some idea of the associations it is likely to bring up. (And I hope that the people here in Mudcat will respect me enough to ask questions before judging me on the word I just used.) When people treat other people as evil incarnate, for whatever reason, I get angry. To the Christians who are tired of people assuming things about your faith, I understand you perfectly. My faith isn't even recognized as a religion in some places. Maybe it's better that way. It isn't bastardized in schools or used to justify corrupt, unhealthy policies and actions. I am reluctant to even name my faith, it is so unnaccepted in this world. (So-called 'Christians' blackened, hung, and burned the good name of my faith.) I know many good people, some even consider themselves to be Christian. I do the best I can. This makes me a human being. Blessed Be, hesperis |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Aug 00 - 02:13 AM I think youse guys are watching the one show Mother A does and not the OTHER one, which I watch, where she is teaching and sharing about her relationship with Jesus. It's EVEN BETTER THAN MUDCAT, AND EVEN BETTER THAN talking TO MY FAVE mUDCAT BUDDY on the phone. cALL ME CRAZY BUT WHEN YOU PICK ON mOTHER a i WILL THINK you ARE CRAZY. ~s~ dAMN Capslock! |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: GUEST,Sgt. Maj. Raoul De La Bande, RFC, Ppd , Hm Date: 27 Aug 00 - 02:10 AM The single most effective means of communication yet devised. And we waste it. I am not deeply religious by any means, but I do think that if the dude was here, and we can give any credibility to the accounts of his words or actions, he would have been on this thing. Somehow. Not just talking, bullshitting, but somehow. I just want to cry when I read this shit sometimes. We got problems in this world. People are either starving or getting stomped by someone everywhere all the time, and for the most part, this thing remains a source of entertainment. It is so fantastic to be able to talk to anyone anywhere and share ideas all the way across the world, you'd think we could sort out some of the misery stuff.... I mean with all of us intelligent , caring people, having all of this spare time to write and argue about music and culture and character and how long to cook the perfect boiled egg you would think we had the team, the plan, the ...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: DougR Date: 27 Aug 00 - 01:22 AM Spaw, you got me cold! Should have been row. kat, you could well be right. Perhaps it doesn't represent the majority. If it doesn't that surely should motivate the majority to bring about change. Right? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: katlaughing Date: 26 Aug 00 - 11:40 PM DougeR, good point, but I don't believe it is the majority. When you examine the voting records of the American public it is pathetic how few really get out and vote; while so many complain and most likely didn't do a damn thing to make any difference, esp. vote! Nice catch, Spaw!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: GUEST,Luther Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:37 PM so, how many Freudians does it take to hoe roe? Two: one to hoe, and one to hold the penis -- oops, I mean mother -- dammit, THE STURGEON!!! one to hold the sturgeon.
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Aug 00 - 09:38 PM Say Doug....Isn't that "row" instead of "roe?"......OR was that a Freudian thing? ***BSEG*** Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Aug 00 - 09:32 PM As long as a majority doesn't persecute minorities and force them to "toe the line", I don't mind. As long as minorities don't try to force others to toe their line, I don't mind. Live and let live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: DougR Date: 26 Aug 00 - 09:21 PM But kat, those people are voted in, because the majority of those voting, voted for them. Does that mean that the majority of the community wanted them in office? Not necessarily. If the majority does not like the outcome of an election, howver, there are provisions for recall, you know. It is possible, I suppose, that the majority of the community are satisfied with those elected also. If that's the case, you have a tough roe to hoe because you are siding with the minority. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: katlaughing Date: 26 Aug 00 - 07:01 PM Goodonya Joe, but it's not just the one who buy tv time; more importantly, IMO, are the ones who quietly and insidiously work their ways on to school boards, city councils, etc. with the express purpose of furthering their extremist agendas. They had a very clear cut plan to guide them, which started about 25 years ago and they've been very successul. I've watched them almost take over the school board here. That is why I get so hot for people to go out and VOTE in every election. It's the only way we can really make a dent and let anyone know what we think of how they are doing things. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Aug 00 - 04:50 PM Far out.....Joe whupped up!!! A double post from father Joebro.....I guess you REALLY can't stand her can you? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Aug 00 - 04:46 PM I have to say that I have real trouble accepting Mother Angelica. She seems to view faith as a weapon to wield against the infidels, whoever they may be. She's waged war against some pretty respectable middle-of-the-road Catholics, including Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles. She is NOT part of the mainstream of the Catholic Church - but she can afford to buy television time. Like I say, it's the people who buy television time who are defining Christianity for the world, and it's a shame. I suppose the rest of us could try to fight back by buying television time ourselves, but I'm afraid that television is not a good way to convey the essence of what is good about religious faith. The only way to effectively convey it is by one-on-one contact. Hugs, smiles, sympathy, and a listening ear are effective tools - but none of these tools work on television. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Aug 00 - 03:02 PM Hey guys, I am a Christian. I'm also a pagan, a Taoist, a Buddhist (moderately so), a Medicine Way practitioner, and a Bahai. I have been an atheist, but I discarded that back around 1969 or thereabouts. Might have been an agnostic for a while too, that's a little hard to pin down, though. I would be quite willing to be a Muslim or a Hindu, but haven't looked into those too deeply yet. I will put up with any religion which is willing to put up with the other religions. I have been known to attack the traditional Christian churches pretty strongly from time to time. This in no way indicates any disrespect toward Jesus. There is no one I have a higher regard for than him, and I believe he taught and demonstrated the Truth. I do not see too many churches that live up to that Truth. I see some good people in all churches who do, however. God blesses you, and so do I. There ya have it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: kendall Date: 26 Aug 00 - 08:18 AM I'm afraid I know too much "Real" history to swallow the dogma of any sect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Whistle Stop Date: 25 Aug 00 - 08:07 AM I have actually seen this Mother Angelica. It appears to me that she puts most of her time and effort into selling overpriced, tacky little trinkets to the viewers, based on the implication that the "true" Christians will want this junk, and should serve God by buying it, rather than serving Mammon by hanging onto their money. In other words, she preys on the insecurities and good intentions of the gullible, in a cynical attempt to take their money. And she is none too subtle about it. I have an aunt (an old woman herself) who is susceptible to this sort of thing, and it's heartbreaking to see her house filled with all this crap while her savings dwindle. In my view Mother Angelica looks like a sweet old lady, but what she is doing is evil, pure and simple. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Aug 00 - 06:02 PM Oh she'd just love him out of that, Mbo! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Mbo Date: 24 Aug 00 - 05:38 PM Uh oh! Father Tom doesn't like Mother Angelica that well. He said she complains too much about petty things that don't mean much in the longrun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Aug 00 - 05:33 PM Aw Joe, my dear friend, lovely. Thanks for sharing all that. I love Mother Angelica on Catholic TV. Lots of old stuff and some rather strong sin-blaming, but such a sweet dearie and so obviuosly full of love for Jesus. I follow what I can from her and leave the rest till I understand more. Benny Hinn on TV has what "seems" like theology "closer" to "mine" than Mother A's, but it is so obviously trumped up TV tripe that I see nothing real in it except for some of the adherents' faith and faces. I like to think I belong to the Church of the Real Deal. I have come to believe that many of my non-Christian friends somehow do, too, even though I can't yet explain it in terms that should fit what else I believe. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: SINSULL Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:30 PM And the wimmin are passed over, AGAIN!!! No Kat, Read it carefully. Who do you think Lotus Blossom is? |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:08 PM I call myself part of the "loyal opposition" of the Catholic Church. Many people find this disturbing, because they cannot see how I can belong to a church unless I completely agree with everything that church says and does. They think that if I disagree with the Catholic Church, then I should go and find another church that fits my beliefs. Well, I don't see it that way. I see the Catholic Church as a tradition I grew up in, a home where I feel very comfortable, a religion that belongs to me just as much as it belongs to the pope. I had 16 years of Catholic education, and the last 8 years were in a seminary, so I think I have a good understanding of the workings of the Catholic Church. I know its good points, and its bad ones - and I intend to work the rest of my life to do what I can to fix what's wrong. I don't think I took a vow of blind obedience when I got baptized. Certainly, I believe more-or-less the same things most Catholics believe - but I think that most Catholics have some disagreements with some of the "official" teachings. I think that's the way it should be. We are individuals, and we should never fit perfectly into a mold somebody else designs for us. Realistically, though, you can't expect any organization - or any individual, for that matter - to be perfect. You can hope they will strive for perfection, but you'd better be able to expect that they will fail to reach the mark most of the time. It also might be better if we were to judge organizations by their members, not by their leaders. Would it be fair to judge Americans by the actions of Bill Clinton and Congress? Also, it might be a good idea not to judge anything by what you see on television. Every Friday, I work with five terrific nuns and a number of volunteers at Wellspring Women's Center in Sacramento, a drop-in center for women who live in the toughest part of town. Those nuns do every thing in their power to give our guests a feeling of dignity and self-worth. Nobody lines up for anything - but if somebody has a need, it's taken care of. When you walk into the place, you get the feeling that everybody is having a good time. It's a place of joy and goodness. I think it's what Christianity is supposed to be - and I believe it happens, very effectively, all over the world. The trouble is, television cameras get in the way and usually can't record this kind of work; and the sisters don't want to waste their money on television time, anyhow. I guess it's a reality I have to accept. Society listens to the people who spend the bucks to buy television time, and so it has come to pass that people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and Jim Bakker have defined Christianity for the viewing public. That's a horrible shame, and I don't know what to do about it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:06 PM One of the problems, kat, is that those of us who are engaged in doing exactly what you exhort us to do find our time, energy, and passion attritted seriously by attacks on the whole Christian picture by those who see only the broken parts that were used to hurt them in the past. I handle such comments like this, when they come to me personally, like this-- "OK, gotta go enslave some more stupid people at church tonight, can't talk right now." What I want is for more people, if they claim to be intelligent and tolerant, to do their share to see the whole picture more clearly. When they don;t do this, and take a position that influences others, they make our work that much harder and slower. It polarizes, and thus any movement in any direction becomes rather frozen. And I would ask that people see the individuals in it as clearly as you see the mass movements that impinge upon you. And to extrapolate from that example of people you know, to see their place in the whole picture, and add that perception to your perception of the whole. When we fall silent, out of fear of persecution or ridicule, or just out of exhaustion at the effort to work against this tide, we become invisible. We have a responsibility to remain visible anyway, but we are only human and sometimes we fall, too. (I'd like to have evolved beyond this, and use my prayer time more constructively, but this is still an area of struggle for me and for many others. So... somebody who wants to reply on this, how about you just pray for me instead!!) Seeing this situation more clearly is to see the living Body of Christ in action. It is THAT living Body, made up of the individual members exercising their gifts and talents as best we can, who are The Church. The rest of what you see is the mere church, lower case, the organization, the structure often used in oppression-- and that church has no right to the judgmental claims it makes on the world. My belief is that it is simply a mistake being perpetrated upon the planet by good people in the grip of old baggage and/or counterfeit spiritual powers, aided by the too-human desire to belong to something, anything, that opens the way to the spiritual life. And if people really want the "Bad Guys" to change, there is still no subsititute for actually getting to know another human being. Without the relationship for dialog, nothing changes too much. Without respect and real interest, such a relationship does not flourish. Without a shared passion for what is real, and what people actually experience, there is only opinion. I cry sometimes-- deeply, wild wanton weeping-- over the fact that discussions like this very one take the place of real discussion about what you, I, anyone, actually EXPERIENCES. This CAN be done. I have spent the last 6 months building a relationship with someone of a very different orientation, to get to the beginning of that conversation. It's about time. Without his having done his share of the work to get to the starting point, I don't think it would have been possible. It took a real act of will to stay in comunication even when we disagreed on the deepest things you can think of. It is now the best friendship I have ever had, and shows signs of being something eternal and valuable to the world around each of us. And there is nothing now that we cannot effectively discuss, baggage and all, because we built in the tools to handle the bumped feelings that often precede understanding and concord. I just urge people to stop the button pushing, and THINK, and pass up the chance to take cheap shots that seem funny. It just is not the best way to get at the issues involved. I would love to hear from anyone who has also built the kind of friendship I am talking about, across any apparent barrier. And I would love to build more of them, as well. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Whistle Stop Date: 24 Aug 00 - 02:56 PM Wesley, it was a poor analogy -- excuse me. All I meant to do was to clarify that I was only criticizing the Catholic church, not Catholics as people. I admit that I could have expressed it better, and perhaps I should be more careful when offering comments on a thread that involves such a sensitive topic as this. Mea culpa -- don't be mad at me, okay? |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Jim the Bart Date: 24 Aug 00 - 02:40 PM There is a difference, IMHO, between having fun with and making fun of. We should be able to poke fun at ourselves and see the humor in our inevitable fallibility. If we can't, I think we're in really big trouble. I didn't see the original story that was cited as "mocking" Christ or Christians. Again, In My Humble Opinion. The story, if I am not mistaken, was mocking our elective process and contemporary values which (the story seems to state)would probably make it difficult for Jesus Himself to run for President of this here country. I like and admire Christ and a whole lot of people who are Christians. Same goes for Buddha and Buddhists, and Mohammed and Muslims, and Abdul Baha and Bahais, and I'm sorry is I left anyone out but I hope you get the point. And all I would like to say to every person of faith, regardless of the direction in which that faith is turned, is please try to see the humor in the object of your beliefs from time to time. A rigid, unbending, untractable, humorless set of beliefs shatters much too easily under the stress that life in this world creates. I can't imagine that any of the iconic figures at the center of any religion would not be able to laugh at him or herself. I can't help but believe that God is laughing at us right now. Finding humor in something does not necessarily mean disrespecting it. But that's just my opinion. And you know what a goose I am. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Wesley S Date: 24 Aug 00 - 02:17 PM Whistle Stop - How GRACIOUS of you to admit that most Catholics are good people. I'm sure a lot of them were losing sleep worrying about it. I would like to point out that the followers of the Catholic church do so out of choice. Unlike China they can walk out whenever they want to. To compare the two is way out of line. INHO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Whistle Stop Date: 24 Aug 00 - 01:55 PM Sorry for misunderstanding, kat. I also am not very fond of the organized Catholic church -- it seems much like a medieval government to me, that somehow has managed to survive into the 21st century without changing the way other governments from the same era have. But I recognize that a lot of (I'll assume most) Catholics are good people, kind of like most Chinese are good people even though I think their government leaves a lot to be desired. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: katlaughing Date: 24 Aug 00 - 01:35 PM Thanks, Whistle Stop, although I am not a Christian, either. Mbo, I hear you. The Episcopal Church is very active that way, too. I am sorry, though, I personally, find the Catholic Church to be hypocritical and archaic in a lot of its strictures. I know change has to come from within and I am glad there are people like you and the Padre you mention who are working for that change. I just hope everyone who is Christian and does NOT agree with the Religious Right, will GET OUT AND VOTE AGAINST THEM in every election possible, because that is where the need is very critical, IMO. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Whistle Stop Date: 24 Aug 00 - 01:28 PM Kat and Mbo, I applaud you for your approach to Christianity. I'm not a Christian myself, but I like to think that Christianity at its best is loving and tolerant, and more concerned with raising people up than with putting people down. I think the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson/etc. brand has lost some power and influence in more recent times -- I certainly hope that's the case. It's important for all of us to remember that they do not represent all (or even most) Christians, so we should not paint all of you with the same brush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Mbo Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:29 PM We are, kat. My priest calls Falwell & co. idiots. He says their all insance extremists, and he says of the Gore/Bush thing "I hope they both lose." Father Tom is great, and I believe our little Newman Center is doing a good job of spreading the word of the real ideals of Christianity, not the stereotypical patriarchal domineering zealot name we seem to have gotten over the centuries. Maybe you cannot see us, but we are here. Where else can you hear at the end of Mass "We join in friendship with John Paul, our Pope, Joseph our Bishop, John Newman, the saints, and the leaders and people of every faith..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: katlaughing Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:22 PM Maybe it is unfair to make generalisations, Joe, but the Christian Coalition has become such a huge political entity, it has become what most people think of as Christianity. It would be good if Christians, such as yourself and my sister, who is a Christian minister, and others could "take back" Christianity or raise it up from the bigotry etc. of their ilk, as you say. Many people who are friends and/or family of mine are being directly assaulted by the political actions, positions, and desires of the Religious Right, which of course, IMO, is a misnomer anyway.*BG* They may be in the extreme, and they may not be in the majority, but they do have the loudest voice and the most savvy about insidiously invading politics, from the grassroots level on up. So, just like I say to my friends who are members of the GOP, take it back from the extremists; get involved; let your voice be heard; and, make sure your church does the same. kat
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Aug 00 - 10:43 AM Well Shad my lad, I think your brain is in high gear. Completely forgot about that one and its a winner!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: SDShad Date: 24 Aug 00 - 10:33 AM Where's my brain? Woodie Guthrie has already written this ticket's definitive campaign song (the Billy Bragg/Wilco version was on MCRadio a while back). Not to stir the coals, as I suppose some may be offended by it. I see biting social commentary in it instead, my own self. Shad |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: The Shambles Date: 24 Aug 00 - 06:38 AM I have heard of the others but, 'the gospel according to Wolfgang'? (smiles)
I have given this a little more thought. I would probably be more wary of taking a light-hearted approach to another's religion, but this religion is mine. The first school I attended was a Church of England run one. We seemed to spend more time in the church than we did in the school.
No one asked me if it was OK to fill my head with more fairy stories. I did mention the 'Tooth Fairy' earlier and the image of Jesus I was feed, resembled the 'Tooth Fairy' more than it did any historical middle-eastern figure.
I think that I am entitled to react a little against this brain-washing and I consider that St Paul (the first spin-doctor) would be a far more likely presidential candidate than Jesus. I have no intention of mocking another's beliefs but it is entirely a question of faith. I am very happy for those that have this or any other faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:33 AM MMLJ: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: ceitagh Date: 24 Aug 00 - 02:15 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Aug 00 - 01:26 AM Well, Sorcha, you know I love you dearly, but I guess I ought to say something about this statement of yours: Problem is that modern Christianity has moved VERY VERY far from what Jesus actually did say, if MMLJ can be believed at all. They are even at odds with each other, let alone the Apocryphyal gospelists, such as Thomas.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: ceitagh Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:10 AM Kat, I do sympathise with what you're trying to say, and I try to make it a rule to assume the best of people and their posts. That i reacted in this particular case is almost definately because of something in me, not any particular desire to give sorcha or you a hard time. If the discussion surrounding your post had not gone as far as it did, i would've glanced at it once and kept going...because, as you say, some one elses humor is not worth getting your feathers ruffled about. But my knee jerk reaction to some of the commentary here was to be not only offended, but hurt. Not because anything out of the ordinary was said, but precisely because it is nothing out of the ordinary to me. I don't know what non-Christians go thru, I don't know your experience, or sorchas, but i know i have never once ventured to insult anothers faith, church (or lack thereof), or intelligence in a public forum, nor have i ever suggested i knew better what someones major religious figure would say or do, or think. I'm too busy with my own faith journey to do that. But others have rarely been so kind to me. In my 19 years of life, my 3.5 years of serious Catholicism, I have been ridiculed, I have been accused repeatedly of being brainwashed and had it insinuated several times that I cannot think for myself. I've been accused of crimes and mistakes that i wasn't alive to commit, i've been labeled a bigot and a member of the 'religious right', which seems to be a code word for "hypocritical self-serving fat capitalist hick". These things are not true for me, and I believe that most Christians are, like me, sincerely trying to do their best. So I reacted to Sorchas post, and her terminology. All I want, I guess, is to feel like if i have concerns that do happen to correspond with those of politically right leaning socially conservative Christians, they will be addressed as my concerns, not swept away with a shrug as i am assigned my label. This is probably too much, and inappropriate to the forum to boot. Anyone who actually cares enough to want to continue this conversation with me can PM me. Pax, Ceitagh
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Subject: Lyr Add: JESUS WAS A CAPRICORN (Kris Kristofferson From: katlaughing Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:05 AM JESUS WAS A CAPRICORN Kris Kristofferson Jesus was a Capricorn. He ate organic foods. He believed in love and peace and never wore no shoes. Long hair, beard, and sandals and a funky bunch of friends; Reckon we'd just nail him up if he come down again. CHORUS: 'Cause everybody's got to have somebody to look down on, Who they can feel better than at any time they please, Someone doin' somethin' dirty decent folks can frown on. You can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me. Eggheads cussin' rednecks cussin' hippies for their hair. Others laugh at straights who laugh at freaks who laugh at squares. Some folks hate the whites who hate the blacks who hate the Klan. Most of us hate anything that we don't understand.
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: Mbo Date: 23 Aug 00 - 11:49 PM Well at least it was music-related. |
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Subject: RE: BS: JC Makes a Bid for the US Presidency From: katlaughing Date: 23 Aug 00 - 11:48 PM Drivel? This condescending drivel from someone who played tit-for-tat and inspired the Pissing Thread???? I hope your tongue is in your cheek, Mbo! |