Piezo Pickups - For or Against??

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 06:50 AM

Piezo pickups need to work into in a very high input impedence. 2 to 6 meg ohms if my memory serves me right. Most guitar amps have a much lower input impedence and this is why the sound gets harsh and tinny. Guitars such as Takamine with under saddle pickups have a pre amp built in which takes care of this. If you are into diy electronics you can find circuits that will work off 9 volts and fit into small boxes. Some effect pedals will do this as well.
I once got fair results by putting a 2 meg resitor in front of a simple high gain pre amp. What does the maker recommend?

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 25 May 09 - 10:17 AM

Piezo's are the Camel in the tent just now. Almost impossible to do with out them anymore. They are in Martin, Guild and Gibson guitars. Takamine and every other work horse out there is so equipped.   I have been using a Pick Up The World Kynar Film pickup and Baggs preamp on my banjo now for 10 years. Beyond the sticky tape I can't find a complaint. My hammered dulcimer has a Piezo Buzzer pick up made from a Radio Shack buzzer and with a Barcus Berry preamp it works just fine.

If the venue is a small noisy joint I use the pick ups. If it is wide open and the mics are good and the sound man is good I use the instruments acoustically.

Don

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Mallee
Date: 25 May 09 - 07:54 AM

Piezo pickups Through the best little invention ever a PASSAC EC-1
Acoustic equalizer it can be configured for violins bass etc and really puts the wood back in the sound. I bought a Boss ad8 in my endeavours to find an acoustic sounding preamp its Nice-ish but the Passac is close to perfect.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 09 - 01:33 PM

PFR, what mandoplank did you start with? Mine was an ebay pile of shit, but now I have got the hotrails humbucker doing more or less what I want I'm tempted to start again with a better base instrument, a Mandocaster or Mandobird but I don't know whether to go for an 8 or a 4 ...

Curiously, for me, the best way to sweeten the sound of a spiky mandopiezo (I have a B-band in my Kentucky Flatiron) is with a distortion pedal. It sounds nothing like a mandolin, but it sounds nice to me!

The LR Baggs outboard preamps can be quite effective, but if you get them wrong they make things worse. So long as the piezo is correctly preamped any DI box should have a high enough input impedance and cause no problems.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: GUEST,big elk
Date: 22 May 09 - 12:49 PM

the pick up does make a difference, but its the DI box and the shill of a sound engineer that makes the difference. A Headway pickup with Orchid DI box is the best but not cheapect option.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 09 - 10:58 AM

I used to gig in a our punky folkie band with a crafter bowlback mandolin
[wife bought it for my birthday present cos she liked the colour],
factory fitted with a passive piezo system.
I plugged direct into a stage DI box and was at the mercy of whoever was any venue's PA sound mixers.
It usually souned 'orrible, and was so spiky I'd end up turning the volume down
as far as I could get away with to avoid my own discomfort
and possible even worse tinnitus inflicted from the onstage monitors..

I eventually started becoming too hesitant to even strike the strings,
and at one gig resorted to turning the volume down completely
and trusting everone else was too drunk to notice, just mimed for the remainder of the set..

So I risked good money after bad in the hope it might improve
onstage sound quality
and after reading sufficient positive reviews purchased a Boss AD-3 Acoustic Processor..

..and so after a few more gigs and a several £££$$$ worth of AA batteries,
I came to the conclusion that no amount of technology
could significantly improve the dire sound of that mandolins piezo pickup.

Luckily the bridge started separating from the soundboard due to string tension,
so I could tell the mrs quite truthfully
that I would need to retire and replace that vile instrument of torture
that she had so lovingly given me.

I now gig with my own home-customised solid body mando thing
with a proper 'eavy metal humbucker direct into a vox or marshall amp,
or both if theres room in the van and I can get away with it.

Still kept the Boss processor though, in case it ever comes in usefull,
no harm in maintaining a well stocked tool kit.

I've also got a Fender Stratacoustic which is the only other instrument I own [or ever will own !!!] fitted with a piezo.
This is an active sytem with more sophisticated eq.
It didn't sound too bad through an amp in the shop..
But I've never had any need to use it in public,
though just in case, I've fixed a magnetic pickup in the soundhole,
and would run a double lead to have the option of combining the sound of both the piezo and magnetic pickups...

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 22 May 09 - 10:39 AM

Martin Simpson is fastidious about the way his guitars sound and he uses undersaddle pickups - Highlander in fact, but probably with an internal condenser with offboard blending/mixing.

I use an LR Baggs Element undersaddle and depending on the quality of the amp/speakers and the EQ I can still hear that fizz associated with piezos, but on the whole I'm reasonably satisfied. The guys that built my guitar (Nick Benjamin) and bouzouki (Richard Osborne) have both suggested that I fit an LR Baggs i-Beam and blend it with the Elements, but I rather fancy using an internal condenser and blending with the Elements - I don't play at high volumes.

As for sound degradation - I can't say, they were fitted when the instruments were made, but I suspect not or not significantly.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 May 09 - 08:51 AM

I like the Baggs i-Beam. I use a blender version, so can dial in or out the signal from an undersaddle pick up too. That works fine. All pick ups have some trade off in sound, but the iBeam Blender gives you a lot of flexibility. I haven't heard or tried the Headway snake.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Myrtle's cook
Date: 22 May 09 - 08:49 AM

Many thanks for that Will Fly - appreciated. All the best

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 May 09 - 07:40 AM

I've had a Baggs I-Beam fitted in my Martin and get quite a lot of natural-guitar-sounding volume from it. All depends on speaker placement in relation to the guitar. Being directly in front of a stage amp doesn't help (prone to feedback) - but the signal from the DI box to the PA is always clean because I'm standing well behind the PA speakers.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 09 - 07:34 AM

If you want to play LOUD there is no real alternative.

The magnetic in-hole things sound, well, like magnetic pickups. Ok if you want to sound like a tele or a strat.

THe stick-on things mostly sound like an elastoplast. The I-Beam can sound wonderful, and like a guitar too, but it won't do it loud. Anything that picks up the shaking of the soundboard will go into oscillatory feedback if it gets too close to the same sound, amplified.

Internal mics are not where a soundman would put a mic and can sound good or bad for that reason - and feed back worse than anything because they are in a resonant cavity.

A good external mic is great but it is hard to keep still and play in just the right place to get a touch of bass emphasis from proximity effect.

AFAIK that leaves piezos. I have not tried PUTW yet.

I quite like the B-bands, but they can be unreliable. Brian Rodgers hates them with a passion for that reason. They seem largely free from boom and sizzle but can be a bit middy even with the dip-switches set to scoop. Some of the earlier ones were a bit low on output from the pre-amp too - and if you get the tip of a jack-plug come off inside the jack socket there is no way to dismantle to get it out!

Of the usual ones (ie long thin rectangular things), I like the sound of the Shadow ones quite well.

I do like the Headway snake. It's the only one in any of my guitars that get people coming up and asking me what pickup I am using because it sounds great. I would however like to try one against a Highlander for comparison. At the moment I do think the round undersaddles sound different from the square ones.

I haven't noticed any undersaddles change the acoustic sound. I was hoping a Headway would reduce the B-string emphasis on my Martin OM1, but it doesn't.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Myrtle's cook
Date: 22 May 09 - 06:24 AM

Hi - picking up this thread nine years later, aware technology has significantly advanced.

Having a guitar built and comtemplating having an undersaddle Piezo included for those occasions when using a mic just aren't practical. Any thoughts/recommendations?

Also wondering to what degree the piezo compromises the string-bone brige-wood communication of sound as it adds an extra layer(and materia) for the sound to travel through.

Many thanks

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 10:40 AM

Jon - thanks for the tip re: the product reviews! Great stuff. And now I am glad I went on a gut feel and bought the thing. Both reviewers analyzed the model I bought, and both confirmed the product strengths I was looking for. It seems it may have been a good buy. STill, the proof is in the pudding, and I'll know for sure after I've had time to experiment with it myself.

Thanks again for posting the reviews (by the way, one of the reviewers is our very own PHX area Mudcatter, Terapln).

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Jon W.
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 10:10 AM

I just finished reading these two independent product reviews of Pick Up the World pickups from the Musical Instrument Maker's Forum. I've got to admit I'd like to get my hands on a few of their pickups. Check it out.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 09:22 AM

blue jay - I read the website info. It looks promising, so I bought one. I have been trying to solve the pick-up problem for my reconfigured Backpacker for some time. I have considered buying a new one with a pick-up installed. I have spoken to two guitar repairmen about installing a Fishman, and neither was was excitedabuot the prospect ... and I have tried the 'hot dot' style pick-up on it (which didn't work too well).

I know that the piezo electric technology could work pretty well for this instrument and the Pick-up the World website made a pretty conivincing argument, so I'm going to give it a try. I'll come back and let you konw how it works out. Thanks for the tip!

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 08:48 AM

Acoustic Guitar Magazine, some time ago now, published an article regarding the proper installation of under saddle piezo pickups. I think it was written by Rick Turner, hardly a lightweight in acoustics. A search of their site will likely turn it up, but suffice it to say here that you can't be assured of decent sound by simply slapping the pickup under the saddle and adjusting the action. I'm no fan of under saddle pickups, but if one is chosen, it should be properly installed.

Piezo contact type pickups sound better to my ear, but placement again is crucial. Combined with other sources they can be very good.

My best advice is this. Whatever you choose, two (or more) signal sources are better than any single signal. Not only are you able to get more tonal variations and timbres, but if one source is a mic on a stand and you move away from it, at least you will have whatever guitar mounted pickup as a kind of threshold minimum signal. This has other benefits related to dynamics too, where moving to and from the mic can emphasize dynamics in the music. As I said in an above posting, the Fishman Rare Earth Blend is super, but primarily because it allows you to mix a mic with a magnetic pickup.

It is certain that you cannot judge modern, meaning this years (!), pickups by what you heard a year or more ago. Too many advances have been made for that. To my ears, my Mini-flex mics, internally mounted, were fantastic when I first had them installed, but I've heard newer such systems, like the Fishman internal mic, and I can hear the improvement. Same is true of soundhole pickups, early ones were not particularly well suited to acoustic strings, but new ones are. Under saddle piezos have improved too, newer ones are much kinder to my ears than older ones, though they are still my last choice.

Btw, piezos are not the only choice for archtop guitars and mandolins. Internal mics work well, as do contact elements. Mini-flex has (or had?) internal mics for mandolin family instruments.

In the end, use your ears, forget your prejudices (I know, I know, I've got my own...) and try everything available. Good Luck.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: gillymor
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 11:17 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: BlueJay
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:57 PM

I am biased, I'll be upfront. My son-in-law has a company called Pick-Up the World, which produces piezo-type sensors adaptable to most of the world's acoustic instruments. The term "piezo" implies any substance which converts mechanical energy to electrical energy, (or vice versa). Most piezo pickups rely on crystalline or ceramic elements to accomplish this energy transformation, hence the somewhat "brittle" tone from even the best of them. Pick-up the World is based on newer polymer technology, offering a much truer acoustic sound. Their growing success relies on three things: absolute true acoustic sound, tremendous versatility, (you can literally take the pick-up off a guitar, if externally mounted, and install it on a hammered dulcimer in seconds), and unequalled customer service.
You don't have to take my word for it, check out their web site at click here.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 09:32 AM

Wesley - I would look at the Fishman website and read up on their various offerings. With a bouzouki or an octave mandolin, you may need to use a mandolin bridge pick up. These sound wonderful. In fact, these are among the best of the piezo electric types. You might send an Email to Fishman and ask about what they'd reccommend for your bouzouki.

Of course nothing sounds better then a mic, except no amplification at all ... but I believe the piezo electric tyep of pick up has come a very long way, and Fishman in particular makes wonderful stuff (I've heard good things about Baggs, as well - but have no personal experience).

You will very likely need to use a pre-amp with it. Fishman also makes some good ones, though you could any other and don't need to spend a lot of money.

The Fishman rare earth is a great sounding pick-up, but seems impractical (if not impossible) for your bouzouki. It has a bit more electric sound, but a very very nice electric sound. It might actually be a great choice for bouzouki or ocatve mando, if it can be fitted - simply because the frequency response may be better matched.

They good news about piezo types for guitar players is that they have been engineered and refiend over the years to get the best sound, most realistic acoustic sound out your guitar. The bad news for you is, when using a guitar pick-up it may not be best suited for bouzouki or octave mandolin (frequency range and sound pressure on the wood differences may produce shortcomings for your application).

I've never been a fan of those pick-ups labeled as Martin (I am not sure if Martin makes 'em or simply puts their label on 'em). I haven't heard many, though - and I may have simply heard some early ones.

As far as whether or not to use a pick-up; I believe that when you're on-stage mics are your enemy. The last thing you need to be concerned about when you play is whether or not people can hear you, or whether or not standing this way or that will produce feedback! Choose the best sounding device you can find, and forget it. Just play!

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:57 AM

I've tried most of the piezos, either as a player or an instrument repairer. Even the very expensive ones do not give a natural acoustic sound. It all depends what you want though. If convenience to move about and freedom from feedback in a noisy gig are your main criteria, then the piezo's your man. If fidelity to the acoustic sound of your instrument is more important, then a good instrument mic will be infinitely better.

I don't use piezos any more as a general rule for guitar, mandolin or octave mandolin (like others I have more difficulty with piezos sounding acceptable on the latter two)although I still keep one guitar equipped for noisy-type gigs.

All the better makers, Fishman, L R Baggs, Highlander, EMF B-Band have some good, although often expensive products.

A final word as an instrument repairer. Correct placement is everything with a piezo (if not an under saddle model where you have no choice - what you get is what you get) and a centimeter on way or the other can make a huge difference. It's therefore worth having a competent luthier or repairer install the piezo if you decide on one.

Peace

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: RWilhelm
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 01:09 AM

Against

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 01:02 AM

Wesley S, your question piqued my curiosity -- looked around a bit, it appears that piezo is the only game around for mandolin-ish instruments. There are newer and better sounding technologies available for guitar and fiddle but noone seems to be making mandolin pickups with them.

If it's any consolation the worst case examples in this thread seem to describe poor installations as much as the characteristic piezo sound. A good installation, coupled with some judicious EQ can work pretty well, and of course you can always mic it for the best acoustic sound. Given the choice between a well-installed piezo and no pickup at all, I'd take the piezo, the convenience factor is really compelling even if the sound is less than optimal.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:48 PM

The name of that thread was re: opinions on pickups for acoustic guitars. I found it by typing sound reinforcement in the supersearch box.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:24 PM

Check out L.R.Baggs pickups.

They're powerful, each string is defined clearly, and they make an acoustic instrument sound like an acoustic instrument (useful when you're trying to amplify an acoustic instrument......)

Big recommendation!

Lox

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:14 PM

I haven't heard an under saddle piezo that I really like, that is, one that's not augmented by something else. I do have a sound board sensor, I suppose you'd call it, installed in one of my guitars and it's the most natural sounding pickup I've heard and a lot of other folks agree with me. It's called a Seymour Duncan SA-2 Perfect Timbre and I Got it from Elderly Inst. for about $130. Wether it would work for a mando family instrument or whether they make something specifically for same I can't say. I recently pulled up a thread called opinions on sound reinforcement, or something like that, that held a lot of opinions on piezos coupled with condensor mics among other things that was quite informative and I'll try to find it and provide a link. I'm pretty interested in this subject as I'm looking to amplify a new OM-style guitar and would like to know what you all think of some of the new gear out there.

Frankie

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: GUEST,MoohTooh
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:19 PM

The Fishman Rare Earth Blend will be my next such purchase. Nothing else comes close. I'm currently using Mini-Flex internal mics and a DiMarzio soundhole humbucker sometimes. When possible I use a good vocal shotgun mic still.

Piezo pickups sound worse than my old Dodge pickup did with bad gas. They're old technology which has been bested many times and it is completely beyond me why they are still tolerated. The quack, attack, timbre and synthetic mush drives me nuts.

MoohTooh (Mooh elsewhere).

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Midchuck
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:02 PM

AGAINST:

An instrument miked through even a reasonably good mic sounds better than most pickups, even the expensive ones. The pickups all make the guitar sound like a cardboard guitar at best, and like an angry duck at worst.

You have better control over your volume with a mic on a stand, if you play standing, because you can move toward the mic or away from it when you go from lead to backup or vice versa.

FOR:

You can get more volume more easily with a pickup, and the sound cuts through crowd noise better.

You don't have to think about not moving while you play, so you keep the instrument lined up with the mic.

VERDICT:

Get the pickup. Then use it only in noisy venues, where really good sound quality wouldn't be noticed anyway; and mic the instrument whenever it's practicable to.

All my personal (not humble) opinion, obviously.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:10 PM

Some piezo pickups are great, some are lousy, some are so-so. The better fishman ones are excellent. I agree with Whiste Stop that the Fishman Rare Earth is just superb.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Jim Krause
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 04:14 PM

I've used 'em. I had an old one when they first came out made by FRAP known as IT. It worked pretty good considering I was playing in a noisy, small college bar. Feedback was a problem just using a mic to pick up my guitar. So I used a combination of mic and pickup, and eliminated the feedback problem. When I wanted to take a guitar break, I just leaned in closer to the mic. Give it a try.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:29 PM

hehe, that should be "I just don't like _the_ sound" (of piezo pickups)

I like sound, really I do!

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:28 PM

I don't like them. The best of them, perfectly installed, are only passable in terms of sound. The bottom line is that the sound that comes off the pickup itself is awful -- "quacky," too much sizzle, too much handling noise -- and the resonance added after the fact by the pre-amp always sounds artificial. Like Thomas, I use in-hole magnetic pickups with a small internal condenser microphone blended in (mine are the Fishman Rare Earth models; the best on-board pickup system I've yet come across). Better sound, and better feedback rejection, than any piezo I've ever used.

With any of these things, a big part of the deal is what you're running through. I put mine through a SansAmp Acoustic DI, with the lo-Z output going to the PA and the 1/4 inch output going to an acoustic guitar amp that I use as an on-stage monitor. Good setup.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:26 PM

hmm, lotsa variables, I can only offer opinions and suggestions. I don't like piezos much as the, um, primary sound source -- they're great to use with an electronic tuner, and ok if you just want the option to amplify without miking occasionally. I just don't like sound.

You might check www.b-band.com and discuss the b-band with your builder. I'm not sure how well their pickups can be adapted to bouzouki, but it's worth looking into, they sound so much better than piezos.

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:17 PM

I am not a big fan of piezo pick-ups. I have chosen the 'in hole electric w/mic for leads' system, which is easy for me to control. Piezo pick-ups have convenience in their favor, and they let you amplify any thumps you might use for rhythm... but they often need bass boosting and there is a real need to install them right, because any play (movement) in the bridge/piezo/instrument-top interface means trouble and glitchyness...pizza pick-ups however, are a different story. I like to make them at about 9ish, after all hope of a real sit-down is out of the question...

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 02:09 PM

FOR.

.......next?...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 02:03 PM

Excuse me - I was trying to say that I've ordered the instrument FROM a builder. He'll make it - I'll buy it.

Subject: Piezo Pickups - For or Against??
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 02:01 PM

I'm ordering a bouzouki/octave mandolin for a builder. He offers a Martin piezo pickup installed at a reasonable price. I've heard a few people say negative things about the piezos. What do you think?? Have you used one? What did you think about the tone and was it easy to use? This would require a preamp at an additional cost. Thanks for your imput.