In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 02:05 AM

Hi Steve,

Yeah, I was at the Gardens Show with Bob and Joni. Great, great show. Some (a few) Joni fans left early. Too bad for them...

Would have liked to see the Dylan and Paul Simon tour, but didn't.

Do you live near Toronto?

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: GUEST,celticblues5
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 11:40 PM

Aargh - posting from alien computer & forgot my name wouldn't show up - above post is mine - just so you'll know who to blame..........

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 11:36 PM

Have to agree that I've heard it sung by both sexes & never thought it was just a "the other sex is scum" type song - always sounded as though about an individual to me. But, even if it were a generalized thing - so what? Can't count the times someone I know has broken up with his/her SO & announced that all men/women are scum. Songs generally come at us from all different POV's - it would be pretty boring if every song was nicey-nice (sorry, Mbo).

"I gave her/him my heart but s/he wanted my soul" may sound trite after hearing it a few hundred times, but I think that a lot of us have probably found ourselves in the same situation & can relate. - In fact, it's so common that similar attitudes (in the sense of controlling behaviors, which is what one often gets with someone who wants all - heart, body, & soul) are now listed in health-care materials as psychological abuse.

Interesting that this song can generate so much flack when we can sing of a rogue like the *hero* of "Melville Castle" with enthusiasm & joviality! Someone dangling 4 or more ladies like Willie would today be called a mutt or some such. ;-) We like our rogues - unless we're on the receiving end of certain elements of it.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 04:12 PM

I dunno' what happened to the rest of that post?!?! wan't important anyway......

Spaw

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 03:53 PM

Ya know what I kinda' enjoyed? A lot of the audience I think were former 60's folk who were used to shouting down

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Charlie2
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 03:52 PM

Bob is the center of all things combined in my opinion. He is the last of the beats, the last of the poets who really play a role in society, the last in a long line of cantakerous moralists going back to Mark Twain.

"There are those who worship lonliness /I'm not one of them / In this age of fiberglass / I'm searching for a gem."

Rock on Bob!

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 03:50 PM

Little Hawk,

That's the show I was at, the Molson Amphitheatre. Other than having terrible seats and being surrounded by idiots who were there to party it was outstanding.

Were you at the Gardens show with him and Joni? I missed that one but know some people who were there that raved about it.

Steve

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 03:41 PM

Yeah, Bob in the 90's has been great. Saw him 2 years ago at a wonderful show in Toronto. Missed him in July, because I was in Cuba. Two friends of mine saw him, and one of them (Jamie) had never seen him before...she said that it was the best concert she'd ever seen in her life.

He's still my hero after all these years too...along with Buffy and Joan.

Bob in the later 80's was "Driftin' Too Far From Shore", but he has found his way back.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 03:27 PM

Saw Bob in the eighties and vowed I'd never waste my time again. I had heard that he performing very well in the nineties and when a friend called on the day of his '97 show to say that he spare ticket I decided to go. He was brilliant, animated and mostly coherent. His band was rock solid and I had a blast.

Saw him again last month and had exactly the same experience.

His performance at the 30th Anniversary show was pretty bad, but I loved how deathly quiet the audience was during his solo acoustic stuff. You could have heard a pin drop in Madison Square Garden.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Charlie2
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 11:30 AM

30th Reunion. I have to agree that Clapton was the man that night. But Eddie Vedder's take on Masters of War was unbelievable. I'd never given him a second thought untilk that night - but his performance had all of that young mans astounded bitterness that the rest of them had lost. I also have to disagree with somebodys comment of Sophie B Hawkins. I thought she was a disaster. Id rather lose a finger than have to hear her act out I want you again. No offence.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 11:26 AM

I've seen Dylan twice -- in 1974 with the Band on his big "comeback" (to the concert stage) tour, and in 1975 with the Rolling Thunder Revue. Both were good shows, but some of the stuff I've seen on film from the 1990's was pretty awful.

It's been a while since I saw the film of the 30th Anniversary Concert. I don't tend to like these kind of things, where everyone gets up in a sort of feigned comaraderie to play someone's songs, and they all get together to join in on the last song (these "let's get everyone up to link arms and sing the last tune together" deals are always horrible, without exception). I remember that I kind of liked George Harrison's take on "Absolutely Sweet Marie," and I think Ron Wood did a decent job of "Seven Days," but aside from those and Clapton's performance, I thought it was pretty bad.

At that time Dylan was having real problems with his voice -- don't know what it was, but I also saw some other things from around the same time (an appearance on the Letterman show was one), and the poor guy sounded like he had a severe sinus infection. I was very affected by it, and wrote a song about it at the time, called "When the Wind Dies Down"; sort of an answer to "Blowing In The Wind," asking Bob what he would do with himself when it became obvious to everyone that he couldn't perform any more. It was all "assembled" from lyrics from his own songs, and I felt like it was a pretty fair piece of work. My wife thought it was too mean spirited, and even though I intended it to be more compassionate than anything, I thought there was a certain justice in turning the blade of sarcasm back on Dylan.

God save Bob Dylan -- still my hero, after all these years.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: LR Mole
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 11:05 AM

I think "That's What You Get For Lovin' Me" is an internal dialogue about self-gratification. But I think that's what "Edmund Fitzgerald" is a euphemism for, too.I may have thought twice, though.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 10:48 AM

Bob tends to be rather unpredictable at times (to put it mildly). However, I have yet to see him do a bad performance in a live concert, and I've attended quite a few of them.

"I can't help it if I'm lucky..."

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 09:19 AM

Hey WS......I thought the 30th show had a few other decent moments, but you're right....an awful lot of it was pretty foul. Johnny Cash and June Carter were just flat awful!!! The whole Shithead O'Connor thing was pathetic. Neil Young was at his most crazed, Roger McGuinn had the neck bobbing thing in high gear. And DYLAN??? Geeziz, it was a parody wasn't it? Like Bob imitates Bob? I knew the songs well and I couldn't understand a friggin' word out of his mouth!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 09:12 AM

I have never really liked Bod Dylan but I like this one because of the tune. I tend to pay far more attention to the melody than the words and in some cases, as, with this one, it might as well have been sung in Chineese for all the attention I have paid to the words over the years. I was interested to find out that Dylan didn't write this tune.

Jon

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 09:07 AM

Happens all the time -- people hear a heartfelt song and assume it's autobiographical. Those of us who write songs get our ideas from events real and imagined; while we may put a lot of personal feelings and emotions into a song, many times the personal aspects are hard for the listener to discern, and the details of the story line are pure fiction.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Groucho Marxist (inactive)
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 08:51 AM

flattop wrote:

Andy Gill wrote about the song: Ironically, it was Suze who had actually left Bob, the song salvages his pride by claiming it is he who is "trav'lin' on."'

-----

Bobby and Suze Rottolo were still very much an item when he wrote and and then recorded "Don't Think Twice, It's All Right." Their relationship ended when she went off to Italy almost a year later.

"Don't Think Twice," is probably not based on anyone real.

Pogo had the same problem when he wrote "the Last Thing On My Mind." Everyone thought that he and Midge were breaking up. It's 35 years later and they're still together as grandparents.

Groucho

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 08:32 AM

Spaw, I agree that Clapton's version of "Don't Think Twice" was the highlight of the 30th anniversary show. Two reasons for that: one, because Clapton's take on this song was so original, and so good; two, because most of the rest of the show (including Dylan's segment at the end) was so bad!

Seed and Mbo, "Across The Universe" was indeed a John Lennon composition (which he wrote by himself), and appeared on Let It Be. Lennon was very proud of the song, but not happy with the version on the album. To hear a very different (and, to my ears, vastly superior) version, check out the David Bowie/John Lennon collaboration on Bowie's "Young Americans" album. It has all the passion that the Beatles version lacks, and it may just change Seed's mind about the song.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 03:06 AM

Hey, Rick. Thanks for finally answering my question about whose tune it is.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that the third verse is what makes the song a good one. Without it, it's just a smart-assy kissoff. With it, there's some redemption, some self awareness--but the guy throws it away in the last verse--and throws himself away with it with his ultimate put-down: "You just kinda wasted my precious time." Or him hers. I don't know if I can sing it any more, but it's still fun to pick--"Who'll Buy Your Chickens When I'm Gone?" that is.

--seed

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 02:29 AM

One of the first songs I ever learned...and I still love it. Keep in mind though, that the tune ain't Dylan's. Paul Clayton recorded it earlier, with the trad words. It was called "Who'll buy your Chickens when I'm gone". Peggy Seeger was singing it as well. Not sure if Clayton learned it from her.

Rick

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: GUEST,pete proctor
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 01:54 AM

Well done Troll for stating the bleeding obvious. DTT is just a great 'life' song with a great tune. All the rest is a load of bollocks!

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: campfire
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 12:58 AM

I took "That's What You Get For Loving Me" and turned it into "That's What I Get For Loving You"....I don't remember all the changes and it probably wasn't much better than the original, but I couldn't sing it the way it was written.

campfire

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Troll
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 12:08 AM

Ya know, sometimes you can analyze a good song to death. Both Don't Think Twice and Thats What You Get For Lovin' Me reflect a certain point of view; one of a person who is sad that it's over and one of a user of others emotions.Neither makes any pretense at any moral high ground. Both state their case honestly if somewhat coldly.

No one has to like either song and no one should be forced to listen to either song if they find them offensive. By the same token, those who like 'em shouldn't be condemed by those who do and vice versa.

Enough analysis from me!

troll

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 12:06 AM

Thanks David.......I'll have to go find that. Kinda' funny I missed it as I like Odetta and Dylan both. Too many albums and too little time. I get hung up on something and play it for 3 months when I should be listening to more. Oh well, I'm happy. I'll check this one out.

And LH.......As gary said, "Lovi' Me" shows a lack of respect perhaps, but its gender neutral and an old college friend used to sing it quite well....female too. I think I heard her do it way back then at about the same time I heard it first from GL.....always thought Linda was much better at it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: GUEST,Steve Latimer
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 12:01 AM

To me the highlight of the Dylan 30th Anniversary show was Sophie B. Hawkins version of "I Want You." And Johnny Winter doing Hwy. 61 Revisited.

The low points were Stevie Wonder and the O'Jays.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: ddw
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 11:55 PM

Hey 'Spaw — I've never heard Clapton's version of DTT, but you mentioning it reminded me of one of the best versions I've ever heard. It's on an album called Odetta Sings Dylan and she does it as a really funky blues — with only bass accompaniment, if memory serves. It's worth a look-up if you've never heard it. She also does a version of Mr. Tambourine Man on there that is one of the most soulful things I ever heard her do. Not at all like Dylan's version. And the whole album has Bruce Langhorn on guitar and Les Grenage on bass. Excellent stuff.

As for this song being anti-woman, I just can't see that. The first few versions I heard of it were done by Joan Baez, Odetta and PPM. But I guess the women of those days just weren't as sensitive to all the terrible things today's women are.

More PC crap, IMHO.

david

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: flattop
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 11:39 PM

leeneia's point is well taken. The song probably appeals to us because it put a sweet melody to our mean, sneaky, nasty feelings that we don't often get to celebrate in song.

Andy Gill wrote about the song: Ironically, it was Suze who had actually left Bob, the song salvages his pride by claiming it is he who is "trav'lin' on."'

Sort of reminds you of the W.C.Fields movie where he at a bar boasting about punching a woman. When another gentleman at the bar claims that he was the one who hit the woman, Fields replies, 'Oh yeah, but I was the first to kick her when she fell.'

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 10:23 PM

Oh, by the way, that Lightfoot song "That's What You Get For Lovin' Me" is pretty hard to defend, all right. I was so horrified by it at age 21 that I boycotted Lightfoot for years because of it. I thought it was the crummiest, scummiest thing I'd ever heard in my life. I still don't care much for it, but I love the rest of his repertoire.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 09:35 PM

Good point, Arkie.

Suze seems to think rather well of Bob these days, according to what I've heard. How about that, eh?

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 09:23 PM

If somebody has a problem with Dylan's songs, its their problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 07:42 PM

SEED!!!!!! FAR OUT!!!!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Gary T
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 07:41 PM

Now who forgot to close those Italics?

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Gary T
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 07:40 PM

I think BSeed nailed it with this:"its point of view...seems to be that of a rather self-centered man accusing the woman he's leaving of being self centered".

The thread where this song was called misogynistic also had a comment saying the same about Gordon Lightfoot's "That's What You Get For Loving Me". Neither song is misogynistic. Both of them express the sentiments of a heel. While one might speculate that the cads speaking in the songs could be misogynists, the lyrics themselves, which are gender neutral/gender reversible, don't show a hatred for womankind. They may imply a lack of respect for the opposite sex, but they're still quite a ways from misogyny.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Mbo
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 07:22 PM

Tripe? Seed, that's an awesome song! I sing it on my new tape...

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: DougR
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 07:04 PM

GuestLeenia: Well, one thing about the Mudcat; you rarely get a 100% vote on anything. :>) DougR

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 07:00 PM

Charles! No matter...it is GOOD to see you on here!!!!! Bonnie is gonna be glad when she gets back to see her *Uncle* Charles!!

luvyakat

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 06:53 PM

Of course, Embo, you freakin' nitpicker, it's on Let It Be, and I almost wrote that--then let my faulty memory speak again--Abby Road is too good an album to contain such tripe.

--seed

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 06:52 PM

Well, I beg to differ with all of you. I think this song is one of the meanest, sneakiest songs there is. The line about walking on the dark side of the road? He probably cleared out her checking account and owes child support and doesn't want to be seen.

the worst is "you just sort of wasted my precious time..." Wasn't her time precious too? It's a cruel line, one designed to rankle.

I think Dylan just put his mouth on fast-forward for this one.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 05:29 PM

I read a quote of Dylan saying that it's an internal phrase to reassure oneself.

And I can interpret it also as singing to one's own feminine side.

MichaelAnthony

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Mbo
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:42 PM

Um, heh heh, Seed...Across The Universe is on "Let It Be."

Sorry to be the nitpicker!

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: CamiSu
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:37 PM

Mary -

By "not that it matters," I meant that my mother would also have been able to provide this information, though not, presumably, the comments regarding the breakup. My parents are, to the best of my knowledge, still married :) I'll let you know when it's me - I have my own computer with cookie, but it's far away atm, with another post waiting to be finished on it. And for the last three weeks, or even three months, I've been home on break, working, directing a production of As You Like It (which is FINALLY over), and seeing all those folks I don't have a chance to while at Uni... I've been posting from time to time. *grin* Glad you missed me.

-Jessica

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:36 PM

I could have checked through my old vinyl for "Abby Road" to make sure, Embo--I had thought it was listed as Lennon/McCartney and almost said so, but the line "Jai guru deva aum" sounded like pure Harrison--and usually Lennon's lyrics made more sense than that ("A Day in the Life") compared to Harrison's. But I'll yield to your greater knowledge...or at least superior scholarship.

--seed, back to shooting from the lip

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Charlie2
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:35 PM

Of course Dont Think Twice is a hateful tune. But its got some god damn teeth that that can not be denied. When I was a kid I used to hear that tune and think it was so campy and quaint. But then I actually HEARD it for the first time and I realized that this is Bob's brilliance. I mean, if you've really heard Spanish Boots of Spanish Leather its the same story. Its: OK so if you're going to flake out and leave me then send me some fucking boots at least. This is CLASSIC Dylan that is of course in Positively Fourth Street as well. To make an analogy, Robert Frost is the same again, He seems nice on the outside but then you drill down a bit and realize that all of his seemingly nice phrases are also as bitter as can be. I love Dylan because he refuses to be anything for anybody. He's one cranky old dude, God bless him.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:14 PM

Yeah, you're right. It's time learning. Just doesn't seem that way for awhile, until the hurt fades.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:08 PM

Wavestar! Not that it matters? Where have you been the past three weeks? Yes it matters. You are you. She is she. And we want to hear from each of you knowing whom we are hearing.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 04:06 PM

'Spaw,

I've really gone off Clapton since he decided he was a pop star, but I agree with you about that version. It was brilliant, inspired and a great take on a a great song.

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: CamiSu
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:59 PM

This is actually Wavestar, not that it matters... In regards to a woman singing it, Joan Baez does a lovely version of it on her album, "Ring Them Bells", and it's very gentle, sorrowful, and while I don't think that's the best way to end a relationship, I don't think the song means to be hateful. In defense of relationships that don't work out, as well - I also just ended a five year relationship. It didn't work out. It hurt. Sure, in all that time, I could have been doing a million other things. Nothing else i could have done would have taught me so much about love, people and the way it all works, though. It's not time wasted, it's time learning. -J

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:59 PM

I have had a lot of differing feelings about the song over the years and I tend to see it as a "resigned to the fact its over" type of thing and I sing it (badly) as a "sarcastic lament." ......whatever that is.

I think the proof of the greatness of the song lies in the fact that it CAN be sung and interpreted in so many ways and styles. Interesting comment above about Ramblin' Jack....maybe that is what he had in mind. In every case that I read here and have heard in performance, the song DOES hit something true and honest within most of us, even if its not the same thing. Now THAT'S a great song!

I guess because it has also been so overperformed that I had dismissed it as another of those "not again songs," one rendition reawakened my interest in it and brought it back to great song status in my mind. If you have seen/heard the Bob Dylan 30 year thing, you know that Eric Clapton did this one......as a blues. Its possibly my high point in that whole program. Ol' Slow Hand really worked it over.

Spaw

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Brendy
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:58 PM

There is a recording somewhere, 'cos I heard it on the radio recently, of a lady singer doing it, with words changed as per Steve's suggestion.

I'm not sure, but I have a feeling she was American.

B-

Subject: RE: In defense of 'Don't Think Twice'
From: Mbo
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:56 PM

Seed, John Lennon wrote "Across The Universe."