Managing a repertoire held in memory

Subject: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 03:50 PM

To put my position in context, I'm a folksong singer, with guitar and banjo, and I do (almost invariably) a solo act. I don't like to use sheet music or a cheat sheet, and will only do so for a situation like HearMe, where my audience can't see me. Don't really like it there.

In my twenties, (back in the late Pleistocene Era) I had a memory repertoire of (actual count) 130 songs, about half of which were what I'll call group one (see below) and the other half (what else?) group two.

Group One, to me, are those songs that are instantly ready in memory, ready to sing at the drop of a request.

What I call group two are songs that I know but I would have to work over a little to ensure my timing, or to remember just what chords to use, or perhaps on occasion to reconstruct the words, or the sequence of verses if it's not a story song, or where to capo to fit my voice.

Just in the last few years, in my late 60s, after a long (30 years?) lapse from performing, I am coming back to singing and playing, and many of those wonderful old songs are coming back, and of course I'm learning new ones too.

After that long preamble, what I'd like to discuss is, how large repertoires do Mudcatters "carry" in memory, what balance between group one and group two, what mnemonic devices they use to help organize the songs for planning gigs, and so forth.

I have a couple of tricks of my own that I use, and I'll talk about them later as they may become relevant to the discussion.

So how big a memory repertoire do you carry? What breakdown between group one and two? What tricks can you pass on? And anything else that bears on this sort of thing.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 05:14 PM

Lordy, Dave, you don't want much do you? LOL! I fiddle, so I don't muck about learning words, but I have probably 150 tunes in the A list, and maybe another 50-75 on the B list, more if we are counting the ones I don't really KNOW, but can fake around if somebody else leads. (I know that "keeping tunes" is not quite like "keeping songs". If I know it really well, it seems to not ever go away, but there does seem to be limited space in the File Cabinet, as it were.

I just use a cheat sheet of ALL the titles on the floor in front of me. I don't seem to need any devices to keep the tunes in my fingers, but the group has a habit of "r-naming" tunes so that the guitar player can remember them. Thus, "Sandy River Belle" became "Muddy Swamp Woman".

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 05:28 PM

I have a repetoire of (count 'em) 3 songs. Now tunes, probably a lot.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Les B
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 06:38 PM

This is an interesting thread. We had a similar one sometime ago, but it dealt more with how to cope with losing those group 1 & 2 songs.

I'm afraid to actually sit down and count the number I have, it may be depressing to find out what I've lost. I would guess at one time I knew a couple hundred. There were probably 50 or so that I could do instantly. The rest I'd have to think about for a few seconds to dredge up all the info. Being able to remember the first few words is the big hurdle, then it's usually there. Playing with a group is always safer. You can ask someone else to do their hot new favorite song, and in the meantime you can be running over yours in the back recesses of the mind.

I'm finding, however, that one can blend group 2 "uncertains" into group 1 "knowns" with a little fakery. If you can't remember the final verse or two, repeat the 1st, put in more instrumental breaks, etc. After all, you probably know the song and the audience may not - and if they do, why you're a "stylist" doing your own inimitable version ! Sometimes all they want is to hear a semblance of the tune and a suggestion of the words.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 06:57 PM

This might finally be something a "palm pilot" would be useful for. == Johnny

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 06:59 PM

The bigeest problem I have with songs is that I can never remember which ones were group 1, group 2, which ones I just sang the chorus to, which ones I just accompanied and which ones I just heard somewhere. At I guess when I was part of a resident group in a Folk Club, I had around 100 group 1 songs but these days it is more like about 20.

I have had a similar thing with folk dance tunes and when I was regluarly playing in sessions, I would estimate that I had about 300 (between English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh) that I would feel happily leading plus I dread to think how many that I could follow if someone led them. At the moment, I would be hard pressed to find 20 that I would feel confortable leading.

I think the biggest thing is just to keep going out and playing regularly. Some songs/ tunes are likely to drop off your group one list but at the same, others are likely to find their way thier - it can even happen subconsciously.

Jon

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 07:11 PM

The unconscious part is certainly true for me--I didn't even know I could play "Angry" by myself until it just popped out one day, at home. I never would have attempted to lead it in public!! Same with several others. I really don't know how many tunes are on which list, but the band has been known to play for 6 hrs without repeating a tune....we switch leads, of course, and there is a lot of stuff the banjo players do that I won't even try to fake around, but 6 hrs is a LOT of tunes!!

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:41 PM

!!! MBO !!!

??? THREE SONGS ???

Once - I was much younger than you are now - I went through a very humilitating situation. Everybody knew that I was (playing?) at least learning to play the guitar. Up stepped a guy who (1) had a guitar, (2) knew ONE song to sing and (3) did so. It was hard not to show how ashamed and how defeated I felt - and actually was. What he was doing there (i.e. what he had done before to be able doing what he did there) would have been easy to me, even easier than it might have been to him. But I hadn't done it.

(In fact that slap in my face hurts until today. It has turned me into some 'song ogre', who has bought many tapes, many CD's, many songbooks and spent much time on the net each time just for the sake of one song I wanted to do - to HAVE. And when I'm finally doing it, it becomes boring and I need some new one ... maybe 'song junky' is a better description.)

Well, three songs are much better than one. But music is much more enjoyed by doing than by learning. I learned by doing, and I suppose enjoying kept me learning. AND: Music that is done is much more appreciated by others than music that is learned.

Do you feel not yet good enough to start doing songs? - Mbo ... BOY! (forgive me, please) ... NOOOOOOOooooooo....!!! - In reverse, maybe... Learn songs, do them, many of them are easy to play and to sing, but there is still PERFORMING. Very fascinating thing, I think one of those that make artists out of simple singers or musicians ... ouch, sorry, moonchild ... instrumentalists. I think it's a fact that you don't even have to be a 'good' musician in order to enjoy people (in order to brag in front of musicians of course I'll have to, but am I singing for musicians, huh?)

Now you are asking how many songs that ????? (me) knows himself. That depends on what knowing is. I've done many, many songs in my life, but I can't do them all today (do I 'know' them?). When I started in my best time I knew about 30 by heart and about 60 at all. This has become much more complicated. The number of songs I could do by heart when you asked me for a song is small (10?). If you asked me to do a special song I know - some more, just remind me of it (there are things I never forget, I just forget that I know them). And if I was allowed to read the lyrics from a sheet (I never do so), I think I could nearly catch up to those 60 long long ago (although I 'know' many more).

BTW - why not do so more often? My impression is that hardly an audience really appreciates you knowing a song by heart... Not doing a song is much worse than using a 'cheat' sheet.

Love

Joerg

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:52 PM

Joerg, 3 songs are the only ones I have memorized. I use cheat sheets (go ahead and spit on me) and know at LEAST 1000 songs. I can not have heard a song for 5 years, and then finally get a lead sheet for it, and just start playing it perfect, even though it's been a while since I heard it, and haven't ever played it myself before.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 11:24 PM

I think I know where Mbo is coming from here.....I don't do lyrics, but I have a million billion "snatches" in my head, at least of the chorus, that I could "DO" with the sheet music in front of me because I have heard it so many times, I know where the melody goes,and what the timing does. I CANNOT reproduce these melodies in any kind of format, but I can play the "snatches"...does that make sense?

Extreme example: (for me)-- a lot of the Beatles' stuff....I can hear "When I'm 64", but could not DO it alone. I could probably "fake" around most of it if someone else were leading.

Another case in point--The DT Tune Search Team is looking for the tune to "(The Sinking of the) Reuben James".....this is a Woody Guthrie song that I can hear in my head, and all the search sources say it is to the tune of Wildwood Flower. It is very close, but not exactly a cigar. I could PLAY Reuben James, but I cannot for the life of me notate it.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Les B
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 01:07 AM

Sorcha - That's probably because there's a "two" chord in the chorus that takes it slightly out of the Wildwood Flower progression. It can drive you crazy trying to play it with someone who knows the Wildwood version, but not the Reuban version.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 02:14 AM

Les, by 2 chord, do you mean the "high part" that is not in Wildwood Flower? I understand I, IV, V and VII, but not your 2..........rhythm is different too, isn't it? This is driving me nuts, trying to figure out the differences between the 2 tunes..........What exactly is a 2 chord? Pick a key, tell me and I might get it. Or, do the Theory thing with seconds...........like sevenths for the VII (seventh) chord. 2nd in Cmaj is CDGA? A 2nd being betwteen C and D?

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Les B
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 02:55 AM

Sorcha - it would be a II chord - ie, in the key of G an A chord. Let me see if I can sketch it out and get the line breaks right !?

Verse:

  G                                      D            G 
  Have you heard of the ship called the good Reuben James  
  G                                 D        G   
  With hard fightin' men, both of honor and fame
  
  G                                         C         G 
  Oh they flew the stars & stripes of the land of the free  
  
  G                                       D            G
   But now they're in their graves at the bottom of the sea 
  
  Chorus:
  G                                        C              A  
  Tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names
  D                             G  
  Did you have a friend on the good Reuben James 
  (repeat chorus) 

Preformat tags <pre> added (but you really made it hard on me, Les).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Les B
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 03:02 AM

Sorcha -- Sorry, it didn't break where I thought it would. Will try this way.

(G) Have you heard of the ship called the (D) good Reuban (G)James

(G)And those hard fightin' men, both of (D)honor and fame

(G)Well they flew the stars & stripes of the (C) land of the (G) free

(G) But now they're in their (D) graves at the bottom of the (G) sea

Chorus:

(G) Tell me what were their names, tell me (C) what were their (A) names

(D) Did you have a friend on the (G) good Reuban James

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Les B
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 01:13 PM

Joe Offer - thanks for straigtening out the first attempt, I thought it might be a mess, and it was !! Actually, you could delete the second post, if that's possible ??

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 01:53 PM

We have an "official" list of 299 songs which includes every song we've ever performed in public. We keep the list in a database which can print the list in a variety of ways including sorting it by instruments we use or by category similar to the categories in the DT. This allows us to get, for example, a list of humourous singalong songs about American History in which one of us plays the banjo.

Of the 299, we regularly use 153 in our school programs. In order to keep these performance ready, we rehearse them intensely for about eight weeks during this time of year since we start touring in mid October. During the school year we have to rehearse occasionally if we plan to do some songs we haven't done for while but generally performing keeps all 153 ready to go. In addition, we try to learn a few new songs each year during the intense practice period.

Of the remaining 146, we can do about half of them with some of them requiring one or two runs through before we perform them in public. The balance of the list are songs we couldn't do if our lives depended on it. To perform them, we must get out the lyrics and arrangements and star virtually from scratch. We try to do this with at least two songs each year for the San Frncisco Folk Music Club new year's bash.

When we first started singing together some forty years ago, we started the list and learned two songs a month. This doesn't sound like much but in five years it comes to 120 songs.

So, the answer to Dave's question about how to keep up the repertoire is: SWEAT

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Amos
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 02:51 PM

I can run off a performance of about 200 songs without sheets. But I find as many of them have not been resurrected in some time that when I do revisit them, I have forgotten verses or lines. For the most part, though, they are intact and just need the right reminder to be hauled out from under the dust. Another 150 or so by count would need a cheatsheet for a couple of rounds before I could again call them my own. Unfortunately, I don't get to exercise this amazing talent very often! :>)

A.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 02:57 PM

Dear Dave:
I'm in the same boat and just a few years younger than you. I think Art Thieme had it right when he said, "The older I get, the better I was".

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: folk1234
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 03:09 PM

Well how did that happen? I briefly became one of those dreaded, oft-misguided G-persons! Well, I'm back, older and better.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Mark Clark
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 03:17 PM

I don't have my list anymore. I keep losing it and having to make a new one. The last "A" list I made contained a little over two hundred songs but right now I couldn't write down the list. It's much easier for me to retain the ability to perform a song from memory than it is to remember that the song exists at all. Each time I make a new "A" list, I have to go through books, records and old set lists to remember what songs I know.

There are of course many pieces I can play or accompany in an ensemble but have not tried to make my own for the purpose of performance.

When I play from a chart (sightread) it's only when I'm alone and only while learning or arranging the piece. The only time I ever sing from a "cheat sheet" is on the rare occasion when I'm jamming informally with someone who keeps a word book and insists on choosing a song neither of us knows from memory.

I have noticed lately that a very occasional verse or line is not retrievable at need. This has never happened to me before and I find the experience somewhat worrisome. I'm hoping it's merely due to disuse and that I just need to get out more.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: oggie
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 05:46 PM

If I see the title I can usually remember the song - found a list recently from 20 odd years ago and was shocked by how many I haven't sung in years but pleased to realise I could remember a lot of them. DT took a hammering as I checked on others.

I find tunes more of a problem - my active repertire of Morris tunes is down to 10 from 50 in the days I played regularly - time to start a new notebook!

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 06:33 PM

I will mention a practice that helps me. Whether it's any good to others is for them to see.

On my computer I keep a list of group one songs, alphabetically, using short titles, which currently starts like this.

AcreClam B 5
Arkansas B 3
BeanBAcon B 0
Boatmen B 3
Downdown B
DrFreud B 2,3
Eddystn Ives G, B
FrzLoggr B3
etc etc etc.

The title is followed by B or G, indicating banjo or guitar, and in many cases a figure indicating my preferred capo placement.

This list is compact enough that I print it, and trim it to maybe 2x6. I glue a loop of paper on the back which goes around the rod in the back of my open back banjo. Voila, a more or less up to date mnemonic to refer to when needed, by merely tipping the banjo away from myself! Of course the same sort of thing could be lightly scotch taped to the upper side of a guitar.

I find it helpful
Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 08:03 PM

Doesterr! A man after my own heart. I only recently "discovered"/"invented" that system myself (reinvented the wheel?).

For songs I am still learning on the guitar I found I can list the chords for verse and chorus and generally get them right and not have to crack the book to learn it. Thus Isle au Haut Lullabye becomes

IsleauHaut G*Am*D*G

There would be a second line if the chorus had a different chord pattern. It fits nicely on the guoitar and leaves me with the job of paying close attention to placement of those chords. Often I wind up with a new arrangement!

Of course the words I learn separately from the guitar and combine them later.

My own repertoire? God I don't know. Must be hundreds, uhh, dozens, uh, tens, uh, some songs I know easily. Once upon a time I wrote them all down and the list took up pages and pages in a note book. Of course the notebook was only 3" by 5".

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: banjobenny
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 08:11 PM

i KNOW A BUNCH OF SONGS.....IN MANY DIFFERENT TUNINGS. But i don't know the names of any of them.... Benton

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: GUEST,Dave Brennan
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 09:35 PM

Songs. I have a lot of songs. The memory for me, or maybe the trick, is who gave them to me or where it was I heard them. Unfortunately for most that ever heard, I haven't what you might call a great a voice and worst of all, can't play an instrument. How many, I don't know...couple hundred, maybe more.

I haven't written down the words of any because...well, I'm not sure. I almost feel that if I were to write out any, I sort of lose them.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Les B
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 09:41 PM

Doesterr & Naemanson - I'm really happy that the lists on the banjo & guitar work for you, you lucky devils!

I'm at the point, sightwise, where I have to get at least further than my arms will reach to read something that small -- or put on my glasses, which destroys that "youthful" image. I guess vanity and senility go hand in hand!

My method of coping is a set list in large type thrown on the floor.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: sophocleese
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 09:59 PM

I have never been successful at counting out the number of songs I know, my brain clearly has an inefficient filing system. The hardest part I have with remembering songs is getting my brain to think past the last five that I've learnt. I find myself always singing the same few songs over and over every day and start losing others that are deeper back. Now and again I like to write out a list of songs I think I know and then force myself to sing them in any order so that I go back over ones I haven't sung for a year and try to keep them current. At the moment I'm engaged, in odd moments, in trying to write out the words to all the songs that I know and can write down from memory into a small book. Its not full yet, 25 songs, but I haven't been working on it for long either.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 11:34 PM

Mbo - please accept my apology. Of course you know more than three songs (using cheat sheets or not isn't the point IMO). But aren't you ashamed of almost shocking old buggers like me to death with statements like this? "Young highly talented musician, very experienced in folk stuff, writing his own music, knowing three songs..." - AAARRGGHHHHHhhhh...hhh..hh...h....... Know what I mean? Maybe not yet but just wait a few many years... ;-)

Seriously, that sounded as if you were one of those who always polish their motorbikes without ever taking a ride or always buy faster computers without ever running any software (just for the sake of the new 'smart' GUI). Formerly there also were people who maintained gigantic stereos without ever listening to music - they used sine generators and frequency wobblers instead. AND there are still people who play an instrument and practise and practise and practise ... but they never get to playing just one complete song ... WHAT are they practising?

As long as you don't forget to sing songs you may use as many cheat sheets as you like.

Joerg

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Troll
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 11:58 PM

I'm with Amos. I honestly don't know how many songs I know.
I'll go to a gathering and if I'm asked to play first, I'll draw a blank a lot of th time. But if someone else starts it can spark me.
I was at a "singing session" this summer on the Isle of Man and couldn't think of anyhting to sing other than The Frozen Logger.
Then Big John sang On A Monday Morning and that reminded me of There'll Come A Time ( don't know why) which reminded him of a tune, and away we went, back and forth. Everyone passed and let us go. We must have sung for two hours, one song after another with everyone else just listening and ocasionally making a request.We finally stopped when the publican daid that he needed to close 'cause it was already an hour past the legal limit.
Afterward, my wife said that she had never heard me do about half the songs I did and we have performed together for nearly twenty years. The songs are there. Accessing them is sometimes a problem.

troll

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 12:17 AM

Dave looking at what you have written coupled with my own experience leads me to think that a good plan would be to list all the songs you have and try to devise a scheme of rotating a subset of them. That way more songs are likely to be reasonably fresh in your mind and even if they are group 2 songs will take little or no effort to upgrade to group 1.

Jon

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 12:35 PM

I try to have some documentation for every song I perform(not all the ones I know, because putting that together would be a huge task--twenty five years ago, my performing list included 250 folk songs. and I have gone through four or five more genres since then)--

I have developed some serious memory problems, owing to neuro-trauma, so I have to lay everything out in the order I am going to play it before hand, and I have to have my chords and lyrics hidden someplace close by in case I go blank--I have great recall for melodies, but often find that I have to re-created the chord arrangement while I am playing, since I can forget even the most familiar songs utterly, under unexpected pressure.

I find that it is helpful for me to collate and spiral bind my A list songs(songs that I always do) and then keep the B list songs(the things I might do loose in another folder. My great nightmare is not being able to find something when my mind goes blank.

My mnemonic peculiarities aside, I always tell my students to keep some document, preferably a fake sheet, but at least lyrics and chords for every song that they learn. Bev and Jerry have got it right--they know how many songs that they've got, without having to "remember", and if they forget something, they know where to go--

In addition to just plain forgetting, there is the problem of not really knowing whether you worked a song up or just played through it. Then there are the songs that are similar, and you knew one, but not the other. "Blue Moon" or "Perfidia"? "All of Me" or "Georgia on my Mind", "Greensleeves" or "Star of the Country Down", "My Favorite Martian" or "F-Troop"?

No problem when you have the document in a place where you can find it--

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 12:43 PM

I probably know more tunes than I can count, but I don;t try to memorize words. With 7 or 8 pieces each week for church, plus 10 or more each month of whatever our jam group feels like trying-- I would rather need my binder than limit the ones I can do.

And Amos, the only reasons I can see, that you don't get that opportunity often enough, are:

1. Mac doesn't work for HearMe and you haven't taken your guitar to work to do late night HearMe on a PC!!!

2. I am not in San Diego often enough!!! (He played HOURS worth for me, nyah nyah!!)

~S~

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Sean Belt
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 01:54 PM

LAtely, I'm plagued more and more by forgetting the lyrics to songs I thought I knew well at one time. Also, I find that when sitting in a jam situation people keep coming up with songs that I know and have forgotten I know, so I haven't played them in years.

My (far from perfect) solution is that I've recently begun keeping an account book in which I write down the titles of songs know and songs I want to learn/relearn. Then I've set myself a goal of learning a new song each week and playing through the list that I know already (or think I do) at least once during the course of a month.

I'm also finding that I'm using (and even paying attention to) set lists, which I never used to do when playing solo. I don't know if this is a function of aging or using more brain power for other activities or what. But just like my waistline gets out of hand if I don't work at keeping it where I want it, so does my repertoire of songs and tunes.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 02:26 PM

I used to worry so much about "doing songs right" that I would worry myself into forgetting passages, chords, bridges, keys, etc. I don't know how often a song would move from Group 1 (songs I have down cold) to Group 4 (songs I should never perform in public) right in the middle of a performance. It was almost enough to get me to quit playing altogether.

I finally came to a couple of realizations that helped me deal with the problem.
1. Most of the audience doesn't care if you "do it right" as long as it sounds good to them. If you're relaxed and having fun, they will be also - and the song will sound pretty good to them.

2. The people in the audience who point out your mistakes (spouses or other players, usually) won't be happy unless they find a mistake someplace. Making 'em happy every once in a while isn't such a bad thing!

3. Mistakes go by pretty quickly (although they seem to take an eternity to those who made them) and are gone before most people know it. Don't sweat the small stuff. When, however, you find yourself in the midst of a train wreck, stop the train, unload all the passengers, shrug your shoulders and get them on the next one.

4. It is sometimes better to throw in the one or two bars that you know of the song the audience has been asking for, with the disclaimer that "this is all I know of that one". At least the crowd knows you're paying attention to them. The key here is being able to judge when this is the right "sometimes". It is never time to play Free Bird.

I make up my own songbooks and use a classy looking music stand. There are simply too many great songs being written to try to remember every one of them AND lead a real life, too. I consider it respectful of the writer to at least try to get the words and parts in the right place. And when nothing else works I practice. It's a cheap trick, but so am I.

Later
Bart (who is shameless)

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 02:46 PM

Good advice Bartholomew, my only dissent is, and I believe this from the bottom of my heart, it is always time to play "Free Bird"!!!

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Grab
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 11:04 AM

I have the same problem - I don't have a problem remembering songs, but I do have a problem remembering which songs I can remember!

I've gone for the "make a list" option that some ppl have described above. I've used Access with a simple database, mainly cos I wanted to play about with databases, but Excel would be just as good. I list song name, author, key, capo position, genre (folk/blues/rock/shantey), a speed setting (slow-medium-fast), and then have a series of check boxes to say whether it's solo singing, instrumental, funny, sad, love-song, whatever, and a "notes" box for oddities like strange tunings. When I print them, I order them first by genre, then by name.

Compressed down to a smallish typeface, this goes sideways on a sheet of A4 quite nicely, 40ish songs per page IIRC. This gives me just about everything I need to organise what I play.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 04:41 PM

Do most people here memorize them by clumping all the C key songs together, or all the open D tuning songs, or whatever? I assume (maybe wrongly) that if you have your keys sorted out and your VIm's and so on, then you can stick a lot more in your head. Or is that not how people do it?
yours, Peter T. (every song in my head, 0 in my fingers)

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 05:14 PM

With songs, I rarely give much thought to keys and I tend to make the chords up as I go along (I only play simple chords). I often find myself doing the same song in different keys depending on my voice which seems to vary in pitch, the instrument I am using at the time and to fit in with others, e.g. if I was in a session with a fiddle player, I would choose D in preference to C...

With tunes, when I have listed them, I have only categorised them by tune type rather than by key. When it comes to playing a set of tunes, there are some that I (and nearly everybody else) play together, e.g. Harvest Home and The Boys of Blue Hill. The rest of the time, I think of the next tune as I am playing. This works most of the time but I have been known to launch into tunes that I don't even know (I will have heard the tune at some point, play a few bars and then get stuck not even knowing where the tune goes) because of this! The good thing with sessions is that if you do get through the first few bars, the chances are that others know the tune so they carry on while I stop.

Jon

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From:
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 05:54 PM

I agree with Bartholomew. Especially with item 1 and item 3 in particular.

I, as an audience member, don't usually notice when there is a mistake made. 90% of all mistakes made by a player are so minor that we don't see them. We usually are just getting into it, when they stop, and I know that I feel a bit cheated when that happens.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Tiger
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 06:23 PM

Naturally, as a computer geek, my list is automated. My basic songlist (750 songs) looks like this:

yodel11 bluey11 rod x Blue Yodel No. 11 Jimmie Rodgers
X T bobbitt bob pax Cm (A3) x Bobbitt Tom Paxton
XI boldthad bol clancyb C x Bold Thady Quill Clancy Brothers
bootleg boo garn x The Bootlegger's Lament Bill Garneau
X TG bottle bot pax A x Bottle Of Wine Tom Paxton
X TG boxer box sim C x The Boxer Simon & Garfunkel
boysue boy cash x A Boy Named Sue Johnny Cash

X = on my short list
ITG = on various gig sheets
followed by:
word file name
song name alpha sort key
performer alpha sort key
preferred key (capo position)
x = I have the lyrics
song name
performer

The X column generates a one-page five-column shortlist (about 250 songs) - all the songs I should be able to do on demand (like the 1-list, from above). I can put this on the table or floor in front of me, like a cue card.It looks like this:

A abdul A guns D ilullaby D clock D(C2) london
C adelita C dontthin C irover A myheroes G sugarbab
C dream C=>A dreamlit A island C hometown B(G4) wages

The other tags generate one-column gig sheets (20 or so songs) I can stick on my guitar, songs I've picked for the family Thanksgiving (T), St. Patrick's Party (I), etc. Just mnemonic clues and keys.

F(D3) darcy
A guns
C=>A dreamlit
D elpaso
A fourwall
A(G2) frankmil
C grace

The whole mess is in one Excel workbook with macros to generate the various formats. I'll be happy to share it with anyone who'd like one.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: Tiger
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 06:26 PM

Well, those columns didn't come out like I planned, but use your imagination.

Subject: RE: Managing a repertoire held in memory
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 10:06 PM

"... same problem - I don't have a problem remembering songs, but I do have a problem remembering which songs I can remember ..."

Yes, I know.

Just forget databases. The best database - unless you have to deal with millions of songs - is still a text file. Simple reason: In a text file you can search for anything you ever entered. But with a database you have to enter the data knowing what you want to be able to ever search for. And even worse: It works 'best' if you know everything you'll ever want to search for and even everything you'll ever want to enter BEFORE you set up the database itself. And it's hard to remember what you once thought you would want to know when you want to know something you can't remember.

'My way' (fnarr fnarr): Enter the title of each song that comes to your mind into a separate new line of a text file. If you want to add additional data, separate these e.g. with TAB or some other unusual character. From time to time load this text file into e.g. Excel with some option 'separated by e.g. TAB' and then sort the lines. Duplicate entries will then be joined in adjacent lines, and you can easily delete everything that's duplicate while copying everything you want to keep into the line that you keep. The save the result again to a text file with the option 'Separated by ... (whatever)".

Understood? It sounds complicated but it isn't. The advantage is that you only have to UNDERSTAND ONCE and you'll always KNOW HOW. No need to remember something or even know something in advance. The only thing to remember is to DO IT SOMETIMES. Difficult enough if your mind is normally filled with your job or your children or your love or ... or ...

Inclusive OR's
Of course!

Joerg