Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: balladeer
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:20 PM

Sophoclees: Did you make up the name Mumblethroth Dinglewort? I'm still laughing....

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:27 PM

Maybe it won't ever be possible to create that kind of society, but we can try. Looks like you're trying to do that as well.
Sorry I accused you of a lack of compassion. (Didn't realize I'd gotten so heated!)

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: balladeer
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 06:48 AM

A grave, a grave, Lord Arland cried. To put these two lovers in. But place my lady on the upper hand For she came of better kin.

Thanks Hesperis. Even though I'm easily wounded, I am happy to be part of a ballad-related discussion where people are involved enough to be heated.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: sophocleese
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 04:23 PM

balladeer, yes I made up the name Mumblethroth Dinglewort. I'm glad you liked it and found what I wrote funny. I should probably have taken more time and rendered it in verse form but that's the way it came out.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 04:50 PM

Mumblethroth Dinglewort is a superb name. It's as good as Crawford Tillinghast, IMHO. If I ever acquire 2 more hamsters (or guinea pigs), I am going to name them Mumblethroth and Dinglewort.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 03:59 PM

Lord Donald is the baddy. He's the only one who kills people. Never mind about everyone's motivation, when it comes down to it, he's the murderer.

And I don't care if he's a man of high temper and it's a crime of passion, he's still a contemptible murderer, the creepo, and I'm glad his lady gay (was she a lesbian, I wonder?) and her little sweetie had a good time in his feather bed and his sheets.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 10:40 PM

I participated in a workshop a while ago called "HEROES, VILLIANS AND VICTIMS". Jim Ringer was on it too. Can't recall who else. We realized pretty quickly that many of our songs that we had chosen to pull out for this had people in them that could fit into all three.

"Jesse James"

"Pretty Boy Floyd"

"Billy The Kid"

"Tom Joad"

"Blackjack County Chain"---------and many others.

Yep, this one too.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 10:51 PM

JTT - before our silly society decided to get all embroiled in new names for various groups of people for whatever reason..."gay" was an extremely useful word. It meant: happy, blithe, carefree...and so on. A Lady Gay was generally thought to be an attractive lady, basically, or a lady who knew how to enjoy herself, or something like that.

Now, however, "gay" is a word with a much more specific application. That's a pretty recent development, historically speaking.

No offense to gays intended by my comments, by the way.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: 5-string
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:53 AM

You know, all the modern-day theorizing is great, but did anybody live in those days who can give us an insight to the actual mindset of the day?

The version I know says nothing of Lady Arlen passing on to her reward. Also, there is a Child's number to this, but I don't know it offhand.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 08:30 AM

...Lord Donald's wife is one halyard short on her storm jib. If she had any sense she wouldn't have gotten caught in the first place. Before technology eliminated evolution, we needed female promiscuity to keep the gene pool clear. Now we are doomed unless we find some cute beta aliens!!!! harpgirl

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:20 AM

I think Guest JTT was being deliberately funny.

Thread Creep!

I used to be gay until they changed its definition. Then I got depressed until I decided I could be gay and straight at the same time! Unfortunately I can't be too pointed about being gay in a conservative society so I have to just to tell people I'm happy until the day comes when I can be gay again.

It just occurred to me, are people using the name "Gay" for their little girls any more? Has that name now dropped out of sight?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 09:12 PM

Yup. It's been blown out of the water by Courtney, Megan, Erin, Brooke, Britney, Kyla, and so on...just wait and see what happens next...

I wonder when Beulah and Kezia will come back into style? Maybe never?

For that matter, what about Winston and Throckmorton? Two perfectly good names that have been swept away by the cruel tides of social conformity. And then there's Oglethorpe and Ignatz and Cholmondely (pronounced "Chumley")...

There are so many boys named Kyle in this town, that if you yell it out on a large cruise ship you have to be sure you're standing in the middle of the boat or the darn thing capsizes when they all come running! It's a sick and horrifying example of the insidious effects of TV on a numb populace.

Is this thread creep? Damned if I know. I can't remember what started me on this anymore.

Oh yeah, Matty Groves. There aren't too many Matty's around any more either. Shocking. Something should be done!

By the way, there is a woman in Orillia named Gay Guthrie (and she isn't). She administers a local art gallery. True fact. For false facts, consult the SPAW Centre For Disinformation and Rumorous Twaddle.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Catrin
Date: 09 Sep 00 - 05:08 AM

There's a woman who presents gardening programmes in the UK called 'Gay Search' (really!)

A friend of mine is called 'Matty' - short for Matthew. Don't know anyone who has Matty on their birth certificate though.

Oh and back to Matty Groves - This thread is wonderful! I feel like I gave birth to an idea and then watched it grow up, stand up and walk away, all independent like and with its own ideas.

Fascinating!

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Sep 00 - 05:25 AM

As for having the time to study...that's what life is, I suppose. We all graduate eventually, with a diploma in Life. Yeah - but the graduation party is a bummer, and the diploma a death certificate!! *B sardonic G*..

Re: thread creep on names - my daughter is called Phoebe after my great grandmother - everyone just assumes I named her for the one in 'Friends' - except the rampant Christians - they know my feminist views on women in the priesthood and assume I named her after the first deaconess mentioned in Acts..... You can't win!!

LTS who was named for her grandmother, and is extremely lucky they didn't chose the other grandmother or else I could be Winifred!!

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Sep 00 - 05:35 AM

Could be worse Liz, if they'd named me for my grandmother rather than my greatgrandmother I would have been Euphemia rather than Susan.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Sep 00 - 05:39 AM

Ethel Winifred??! At least Euphemia got popular with Mrs Doubtfire..... Ethel is a sad old character in a UK soap (sorry, thrice weekly drama) who died in the latest episode. Winifred at least has the merit of being a saint.

LTS

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Hedy West (current membership)
Date: 09 Sep 00 - 05:40 AM

They're all flawed, just like us. In condensed time we watch them pay for those flaws. If we've a mind to, we can try to contain ours, or leap right into our own perditions. Hedy

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 07:25 AM

REFRESH

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 11:42 AM

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Nerd-away from home
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 11:45 AM

Re: jacob B's observation (three years ago!)

Yes, several great traditional singers in North Carolina and Virginia identified the page as "little Robert Ford." Cas Wallin paused after singing the character's name and muttered "he got around, didn't he?" indicating that he was fully aware of the character's appearance in Jesse James. Dillard Chandler also sang of "little Robert Ford." I think he was Cas' Uncle, but he may have been a cousin.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 07:26 PM

All of the characters in this ballad were playing their roles according to the laws of chivalry. Lady Barnard/Arlen was lovestruck. Little Musgrave/Matty Groves would have been abandoning his manhood if he had refused the lady's offer. The page was doing his job. Lord Barnard/Arlen was defending his honor.

Of course, from most people's point of view these days, each of them was asking for trouble. Leslie Fish disposes of the three main characters in the last line of her satire:

"But who else but a brainless slut would go for Manly Men?"

She has nothing to say about the page.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 12:16 PM

Sorry, Joe F, but I can't agree.

It was not part of the Laws of Chivalry that a married woman who is "love-struck" should attempt to sleep with the object of her affections. (Women, by the way, were not goverened by rules of chivalry anyway.) It was even less part of any chivalric code for a man to sleep with an inappropriate woman. Chivalric or courtly love was ideally non-sexual, with the man worshipping the woman and performing great feats in her honor. Entire romances, such as Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, are centered on the idea that the height of chivalry is refusing sexual contact with women if that contact is not socially appropriate (eg. you are not married to her, or worse, she is your lord's wife). In fact, Matty's inability to refuse her advances would be seen as emotional and womanly, "abandoning his manhood" in your words.

The page was also not bound by chivalric rules, and it is open to interpretation whether he did the right thing. He is, after all, a lady's page, that is, her servant, and he obviously goes against her wishes. On the other hand, in the medieval/renaissance worldview, Barnard is her boss, and hence the page's "boss's boss." So the situation is similar to being in an office where your boss does something which you know HER boss would not approve of. Do you tell? Hard to say, but few would argue that it's necessarily your JOB to tell.

Insofar as Barnard/Arlen goes, once he is informed by the page, he has more options than simply killing them on the spot. Depending on where his demesne is, he may be essentially an absolute tyrant on his own lands. Or he may be able to prosecute them legally. he certainly does not have to kill them, as he himself recognizes in some versions of the ballad where he regrets his actions afterward.

The good thing about the ballad for me is that it presents complexities of morality rarely seen in ballads. You can ask: was Lady Barnard wrong to pursue Matty, if she was in a loveless marriage? Was Matty wrong to accept her offer, if he could see how unhappy she was? Was the page wrong to tell, given what the likely consequences would be? Was Barnard wrong to kill them? In all cases, the answer is "yes...and no." That's why it's one of the great ones!

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 07:42 PM

Nerd:

Evidently, you know more about the matter than I do. At any rate, I think I should have written "gallantry" rather than "chivalry". There certainly was (and is? I have heard such things said) a body of sentiment that it is craven for a man to turn down a woman's offer, regardless of the sin & danger involved, but perhaps "gallantry" is a better name for it.

I had assumed that the page was the lord's rather than the lady's; but I see in Child that the versions differ on this point. In A he is indeed the lady's, and expresses awareness of the resulting conflict:

All though I am my ladye's foot-page,
Yet I am Lord Barnard's man.

In C, she calls him "_our_ little foot-page", but it is clear that his primary duty & loyalty are to the lord. She worries that the page will betray her, and Musgrave responds by offering him a bribe to keep the secret & indeed stand watch in case the lord comes home; but he refuses, saying "'Twere great disloyaltie", and runs off. That surely magnifies the recklessness of the couple in proceeding! H is similar.

In D, there is no mention of whose in particular the page is; but he *asks* for a bribe, and Musgrave, besides agreeing to pay it, threatens to burn the page alive if he betrays them; the page then sneaks off to the stable & rides away to warn the lord. Complicated things must have been going on in his mind! Perhaps he resented being threatened. L is similar, except that the page is explicitly the lady's, and Musgrave asks her to bribe him.

In E, the page is unambiguously "Lord Barnaby's boy", and he surprises them in the act. *The lady* threatens him with a penknife; he gives her "a blythe leer look" & runs off. J is similar, except that she threatens him with a rusty sword.

In F, the page is hers, and she summons him in advance for the promise & the threat, but he ignores both.

Evidently there are some versions in which the page is only doing his duty, but they are not the most interesting ones. Complexities of morality indeed!

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 02:20 AM

Joe F

Good point that these things vary from version to version as well! Of course, there are many versions not in Child, and indeed the ones I know best are from oral tradition. The Child versions you've gone through add even more interesting twists!

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 09:04 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Ivan
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 11:28 AM

There are no "baddies" in the song, just people who have to make choices.
Matty/Musgrave has to choose whether or not to try his luck with the lady.
She has to choose whether or not to invite him back to her place.
The page has to choose ... and so on.
Thankfully they all make what turn out to be the wrong choices. If they didn't it would be an extremely boring song! In fact it would have been forgotten long before now.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 11:50 AM

One of the salient features of the traditional English and Scottish ballads is that they don't take sides, they don't preach. They give you a conflict situation, which gets resolved in some way, but the song itself doesn't set out to tell you what to think about the situation. Sure, you may conclude that you pity Matty Grove (for instance) in the situation, but the ballad won't tell you, "Oh, wow, that bastard husband slew poor little Matty!" Nor, "There! That sneaking womanizer, Matty Grove, got his comeuppance!"

The "baddy" (if any) is the personal creation of the individual listener.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 08:17 AM

The woman.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 03:14 AM

My daughter, sophomore in a Catholic girls high school, needs a song for Religion class that contains "sin, love or justice". I thought for a bit and gave her Matty Groves, Fairport Convention version. That may give the class someting to discuss. The younger kids will probably go to publick school.

Allan

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:55 AM

This is the kind of stuff that makes the Mudcat great in even the worst of its times. Thanks for an eminently readable discussion, gang!

My first impulse was to say it was the wicked wife as seductress, but the complex of individual decisions made in context is not conducive to condemning one person as the baddy. Because real life often doesn't fall in to black and white roles. It is true that any of the players could have chosen more wisely and thus prevented the convergent of bad choices into a catastrophe. The song engenders a wish -- maybe even a decision -- to seek wiser powers of choice. But is not a moralityplay in the old black-and-white sense.

A

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 04:31 PM

The religious class that required a topic embracing 'sin, love or justice' reminds me of an old story about the famous mystery-writer who addressed a class of schoolkids, impressing upon them that a really good mystery story contained three things --- religion, sex and mystery.
He then set a competition for the class to write a short mystery story. One kid won it in three minutes with 'My God! I'm pregnant! Who did it?'

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 04:34 PM

The idea that there is one baddy, and that everyone else is blameless, in a story like that is a strange one. As it is in any number of real life family disasters.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,MaW
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:06 AM

One does wonder if perhaps Matty had heard about what happened to Child Owlet when he refused the proposition of a noblewoman. It could easily have influenced his choice as to whether or not to sleep with her if she was in a position to make trouble for him (and it doesn't get much worse than what happened to Child Owlet after he refused Lady Erskine).

It is a fascinating song, this. Even just within Fairport Convention's version there are many arguments to be made for who's to blame, and mixing in the others just adds mud to the waters. This question will likely never be resolved. Any one of them could have stopped it, they all had the opportunity.

And as Ivan said back in January 2004, if they hadn't all made the wrong choices it would be an extremely boring song.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:36 AM

It is my contention that there are no baddies in balladry, just hapless protagonists - victims and perpetrators - pitched into the maelstrom of a narrative derived, to whatever extent, from experience, or else life, by way of an entertainment made more effective by the sheer lack of any sort of moral preaching or two-dimensional moralising. The tragedy is thus made more real and at least allows for a more rounded view of the characterisations which would otherwise be too wooden to be in any way believable. The effectiveness lies with the portrayal of circumstance as believable, and the capacity for humans to fuck up at any level, otherwise there'd be no ballads, or soaps, without allowing for the possibility of redemption.

In life there are no baddies, and certainly no goodies, just circumstance, with context and causality. In the news we always get the details of the crime, but never the full story behind it. There are no random acts of violence; each has a story, a narrative, and a context, and only by knowing this can we effectively deal with the wider trauma of the crime. Ballads do this, soaps likewise, I'm thinking it's about time the news media did it too.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:36 AM

Cutting someones head off makes you a baddy in my book.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:52 AM

What makes the song for me is this verse (verse 17 of Child's version A):

'Is not thy hawke upon a perch?
Thy steed eats oats and hay;
And thou a fair lady in thine armes,
And wouldst thou bee away?'

She's right - in that moment everything's right with the world for Musgrave, he couldn't be in a better place. But at the same time she's horribly wrong, and he's in the worst place possible (for both of them). That contradiction between contentedly being in the moment & anxious foresight - and between doing what you want & thinking about what's going to keep you alive - really resonates with me.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:54 AM

The rule is, "An eye for an eye..etc" NOT a life for a piece of ass.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:37 AM

I've never liked this song.

I admire anyone with the committment to tackle a piece like this and give it its due, but it leaves a nasty taste to my mind.

I think theres a gleam of admiration in the songwriters eye for the murderer. All that bravado about bury her on top because she's from a higher class. Its sort of reminiscent of Lucky Lucan and the way the poshocracy spirited him away. Oh he's from this class - he shouldn't be accountable like every other Tom, Dick and Harry.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

I think this is what actually happened.....

A holiday, a holiday, so the rain was falling hard,
Lord Arlen's wife went into the town with her husband's credit card
And when the shopping it was done, she went back to where her car was parked.
And there she saw little Matty Groves, nicking sat-navs in the dark.

Come home with me, little Matty Groves, come home with me today,
And I will do such things to you as will take your breath away.

I can't come home, I won't come home, I can't come home for my life,
For I see by your personal number plate you are Lord Arlen's wife.
What if I am Lord Arlen's wife, Lord Arlen he has gone,
Down to the pub at Eastbridge, to play his melodeon.

I can't come home, I won't come home, I can't come home, I fear,
For I'm due in court in half an hour for nicking a Cavalier.
You can come home, little Matty Groves, you can come home today,
For I'm the very close friend of a magistrate, he'll see that you're OK.

I can't come home 'cos if I did I'd be no use to you,
I've had a quart of Bacardi Breezer and six tins of Special Brew.
You must come home, little Matty Groves, I know we'll be all right,
For I can start without you, and you can take all night.

At this a servant standing by began to grow quite vexed,
He swore Lord Arlen he would know, so he sent him off a text.
And when Lord Arlen read the news, he began to swear and cuss,
He chucked his melodeon back in its box and jumped on the very next bus.

When he got back to his own bedroom, he peered around the door,
His lady fair and Matty Groves still at it on the floor.
Then Lord Arlen turned around and hurried from the room,
He came back with his camcorder, with its twenty times optical zoom.

And when the filming it was done, it was sold to Channel 4,
The three of them got stinking rich, so they made a dozen more.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:58 PM

LORD DANIEL

The first come down was dressed in red
The next come down in blue
The next come down Lord Daniel's wife
The fairest of the two (2x)

She cast her eyes around and about
Little Mathie she did see
She said, "Come along little Mathie Grove
And lie this night with me" (2x)

"O, this I can't," little Mathie said
"I dare not for my life
I can see by the gold ring that you wear
You are Lord Daniel's wife." (2x)

"If I am Lord Daniel's wife
I'm sure you take me to be
He has gone to London Town
King Harry for to see" (2x)

A little foot page was standing by
To see what he could hear
Straight way went down to London town
Lord Daniel the news to bear (2x)

"What news, what news, my little foot page?
What news do bring to me?
"Your wife's in bed with little Mathie Groves
Bad news, bad news," said he (2x)

"If this be the truth that you tell unto me
O, this that you tell unto me
I have one daughter of my own
Your wedded wife shall be" (2x)

"But if this be a lie that you tell
One this that you tell unto me
I'll bring some gallows strong and high
And hanged you shall be" (2x)

He called his soldiers round to him
And marched them in a row
And gave them orders then and there
Not a sound from bugles to blow (2x)

But just as they were almost there
One who wished little Mathie well
He put his bugle to his mouth
And blew it loud and shrill (2x)

"What's that, what's that," little Mathie said
"Isn't that Lord Daniel's horn?"
"It's nothing but my father's horn
Just a-blowing his sheep to corn" (2x)

They hugged and kissed as lovers do
Then fell off to sleep
And the next thing either of them knew
Lord Daniel was at their feet (2x)

"How do you like my well made bed?
How do like my sheet?
How do you like my darling wife
That lies in your arms asleep?" (2x)

"Very well I like your well made bed
Much better I like your sheet
Much better I like this fair, gay lady
That lies in my arms asleep" (2x)

"Put on your clothes little Mathie Grove
And fight me while you can
No man shall say when I am gone
That I slew a naked man" (2x)

"I must get up at your request
And fight you for my life
And you shall use your two broadswords
But I will take a knife" (2x)

"These swords are made by finest steel
And cost me deep in purse
But you may have the sharpest sword
And I will take the worst" (2x)

The very first lick little Mathie struck
He wounded Lord Daniel sore
The very first blow Lord Daniel struck
Little Mathie could fight no more (2x)

He took his darling by the hand
And he sat her on his knee
And said, "Which one do you love the best
Little Mathie Grove or me?" (2x)

"Very well I like your rosy cheek
Much better I like your chin
Much better I love little Mathie Grove
Than you or any of your kin" (2x)

He took his darling by the hand
And led her across the plain
He took those two broad swords of his
And split her head in twain (2x)

So sweet then sang the nightingale
So sad the sparrow's cry
"There's been two lives I've taken today
And tomorrow I must die" (2x)

Source:
Mary Lomax, GA (2007); Art of Field Recording vol.1, recorded by Art Rosenbaum. Mary (no relation to Alan or John) learned this from her father.

Well, I'm not sure whether there's any point is getting angry at fictional characters in ballads, but OK I'll play along and give my two cents on who's to blame . . .

Lord Daniel's wife clearly enjoys toying with little Mathie Groves (I see him in my mind as meek and unassuming) and has no qualms at all about cheating on her husband. Mathie should have known better, but heck a chance like this doesn't come along every day. Yeah, the footpage was a fink, a traitor to his own class, presumably. Lord Daniel was more concerned with his own reputation when he told Mathie to get dressed and fight him (this scene gets more ridiculous the more I think of it), but his offer of a sword probably wasn't as noble as it seems. Think about it, Mathie was accustomed to fighting with a knife. Wielding a broadsword was likely cumbersome, and put him at a disadvantage. But isn't it funny, Lord Daniel doesn't get away with murder in the end. He clearly expects to executed for his crimes. So they're all to blame, and they all pay with their lives. Except for that little rat footpage. I wonder if he ever got to marry the Lord's daughter? Maybe he in turn got murdered by one of his fellow servants. One can only speculate . . .

Subject: Lord Daniel - Nimrod Workman
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM

LORD DANIEL

Well, the first come down was dressed in red
The next come down in green
The next come down Lord Daniel's wife
Fair as any queen, queen
Fair as any queen

Can I go home with you, little love?
Home with you this night?
I can tell by the rings you wear
You are Lord Daniel's wife, wife
You are Lord Daniel's wife

Well, a little footpath was standing by
And he heard every word was said
"If I don't die by the break of day
Lord Daniel will hear of that, that
Lord Daniel will hear of that."

Well, he had about sixteen miles to go
Eight of them he run
Run till he came to a broken down bridge
Fell to his breast and he swum, swum
Rattle at the door and he run

"What is it, my little footpath?
What is the matter now?"
"Another man's in bed with your wife
Both of their hearts as one, one
Both of their hearts as one"

Well, he called his army to his side
Told them for to go
Threw them bugles to their mouths
They began to blow, blow
They began to blow

"You better get up, my own true love
You better get up and go
Lord Daniel's coming home this night
I hear them bugles blow, blow
I hear them bugles blow"



"Lay down, lay down, my little true love
Lay down and go to sleep
That is your father's shepards
Blowing to the sheep, sheep
Blowing to the sheep"

Well, they began to hugging and kissing
They both fell off to sleep
And when they woke their hearts was broke
Lord Daniel was at their feet, feet
Lord Daniel was at their feet

"Get up, get up little Mathie Grove
And fight me for your life"
"How can I fight you for my life
You, two brand new swords
Me, no much as a pocket knife, knife
Not much as a pocket knife"

"Yes, I have these two brand new swords
The best I'll give to thee
And the very first lick Lord Daniel struck
Brought Mathie Grove to his knees, knees,
Brought Mathie Grove to his knees.

Source:
Nimrod Workman, from 'I Want to Go Where Things Are Beautiful' (June Appal CD); learned from his uncle.

In Workman's version, it looks like Mathie is the one who instigates the affair. But really no one would have been the wiser if that damn little 'footpath' could have just have minded his own business. Even Lord Daniel seems annoyed- "What is it, my little footpath? What is the matter now?" No one likes a tattle-tell.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: goatfell
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 12:44 PM

the baddy isn't the page he was only doing his jib if he didn't then he would of got killed and neither Matty Groves but the baddy is the Lady becuse she was the one that started it.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM

Unless it was Mathie who started it. Workman's version is rather abreviated, and much of the narrative and dialogue has been compressed. Are there any other versions in which Mathie seduces the wife?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:36 PM

I brought this old thread back up, because I had a similar discussion about Matty Groves with Mr Finn and the Laprelles at the Getaway. Anyway, here's my theory on the whole thing:

Yes, Lord Arnel was a wealthy man who was much older than his Lady. She was attractive, unsatisfied, and bored. The Lord was a big brawling lug, fond of hunting, fighting, feasting, and used to having his way with the girls of the village. She was kept safely within the castle walls. The other lords who saw her would be smitten, but too afraid of Lord Arnel to attempt any hanky panky. Even the male servants were aware of the Lady, her beauty, and he warm temperament.
This feeling extended to none other than Lord Arnel's page, who would have had as much intimacy with her as any other male would have been allowed, he having Arnel's full trust. Could it be that the two traded longing looks, that she extended subtle invitations which the page was far too cautious to follow up? Or was he a homely weasel who only pined for a woman who was unattainable to him?
For whatever reason, her eye fixed on Matty, a fellow below her station, but perhaps a village romeo. At any rate, it seems certain that the seduction at Church was the end result of a long mutual admiration. Unlike the page, Matty had the boldness of love and passion to overcome his fear of Lord Arnel. He was not a shy and weak fellow, in my opinion, but a youth of the Lady's age bold, and perhaps dumb enough to make love to her in the Lord's own bed.
And who would be most likely to be aware of such an assignation? Whose stewing unrequited love would be most likely to turn to vengeance when he learned of it? Why, the page.
This was his motivation in going to Lord Arnel, not any sense of loyalty. He wanted Matty killed for doing what he had not the courage to do. Did he bargain for the Lord 's killing his Lady as well? Probably not. For he could not envision that she would have the boldness to tell Arnel that she would rather have Mattie than her husband. This would be a courageous stand that the weaselly page could not predict.
And so, Lord Arnel, cruel but fair, offers Mattie the better sword and slays him in an exchange of blows. Her statement provokes him to kill her in a tempest of anger, an action which I am sure he would later regret.

Anyway, that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:47 PM

Apologies for failing to read this thread, but I see the "baddy" quite clearly as the err "Lady" for seducing the wee lad in the first place. She knows what she's doing AND how dangerous it is for him.
The Lord is indeed a calculated sadist too though (meaning in other words no other servant will ever shag her again whilst he's away!), but it's nevertheless quite probably in keeping with social behaviors of the time. For him it's purely a matter of 'honour'.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:01 PM

The assumed ethic is one of "A man does what a man's got to do" - both Mattie and the Lord. In fact everyone is doing what they are expected to do in the convention of the ballad.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:12 PM

Who's the baddie?

Is it my partner when he starts to sing it.

Or me for making this complaint.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,guest - anne neilson
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:21 PM

Thought you might like to know of the first time I heard this song, possibly 1961/62, sung by the great Aberdeen ballad singer Jeannie Robertson in the front room of my teacher Norman Buchan. The room was packed and Jeannie stood with her back to the fireplace, commanding the whole space. She sang Matty Groves in a full version, holding individual listeners with a very direct gaze as she shared two or three verses with them -- and you dared not disengage!
When she reached the part of the story where Lord Donald challenged Matty and offered the naked man his better sword, she paused and looked round the room until she saw Norman standing by the door. Then she said, "Well, you see, Norman -- he wis aye a fair man.". And then she picked up the song again and sang it through to the end.
By the way, I was also told around that time (probably by Norman) that Jeannie knew the ballad to another tune but had heard Jean Ritchie at an Aberdeen folk festival and made her own version of Jean's tune!
Love this ballad, and have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Joe_F
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:25 PM

I find Lonesome's speculations stimulating & plausible.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,busy dizzy
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 07:39 PM

I have great sympathy for Lady Donald. Clearly this God fearing woman had listened to the vicar preaching on the text "love thy neighbour" and decided that Matty was her neighbour. Quite possibly Matty misinterpreted the commandment "though shalt not covet thy neighbours wife or his ass" .and covetted his neighbours wifes ass. The resulting union of these interpretations clearly could have been exacerbated by the excitement of it being the first holiday of the year where the depths of winter were cast off and the qualities of new life, calving lambing and the joys of spring were celebrated. Add to this the actions of Lord Donald who clearly was not carrying out his duties toward his wife .. being away for a considerable time and we do not know who he was with

Bloody servants .. u can't trust anybody these days