Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Charlie Horse
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 06:02 AM

I would like to clarify one thing about the times that this song was written in. It was socially acceptable for both males and females of the time to take lovers on the side. At the time it had the signifigance of belching in public. In poor taste, but hardly a crime.

It seems to me that this is a tragedy of estimations. Lady Arlen underestimated what Arlen felt for her. Matty underestimated what Arlens reaction would be (that is why he risked staying. The Servant underestimated the consequences of letting Arlen know what was going on. Arlen overestimated his wife's love for him. And the only person who had any idea what was going to go down was the hornblower who was riding with Arlen because he was able to see its affect on Arlen.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 12:47 PM

lord darnald, if he had insisted on his wife wearing a chastity belt and taken away the key after locking it , we would not have the song

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: freddfish
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 01:05 PM

Slightly off topic, but I have always been somewhat amused by Dr Ralph Stanleys version, in which he depicts their actual act of coitus with, I think, admirable delicacy:

"Well they tossed and they turned in the bed all night,
'til they lay fast asleep.
And in the light of the cold morning dawn,
Lord Arnold stood at their feet"

One could almost infer that, rather than banging the bedposts, they had instead hit the espresso machine many times more than prudence would dictate, and had been cursed with a horrific case of insomnia...

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 02:16 PM

I think that what Lord Arlen felt for his wife was not so much love, but ownership, according to the mores of the times. Mattie Groves was poaching on Arlen's property. And his wife not only let him, but talked Mattie Groves into it.

Nobody emerges neat and tidy from this fracas, save, possibly, the man with the horn, who was "a man who wished no ill."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 03:51 PM

Asking who the baddy is, with a ballad which goes back as far as Matty Groves does is asking for trouble, simply because cultural attitudes to love, marriage, property etc have change so much since.

As far as mediaeval England is concerned, I agree with Don Firth. Lady Barnard (sorry for the change of name) was his property. Little Musgrave, had violated his property - had become damaged goods in fact - and he dealt with Musgrave in the same manner in which he would have dealt with anyone else stealing from him.

Plus, in feudal times, with wars and rieving and God knows what, kinship alliances were vitally important. If Lady Barnard had been mucking about, and one or more of her sons were those of some oppenent, Lord Barnard could have ended up in a very sticky predicament.

Therefore, Lord Barnard despatched his cuckold in full accordance with the harshness of the times. And if you think that Little Musgrave suffered harshly, I recently read a footnote in a book about manorial life in England in feudal times. The footnote said that the Bishop of Chester (I think) borrowed a gallows from the appropriate authorities and unceremoniously hung one of his parishoners for stealing a dozen eggs.

But what happens when the ballad surfaces in the Southern Appalachians, where social mores regarding marriage are entirely different?

It seems to me that the murder then becomes a genuine crime of passion and the villain of the piece is not Lord Barnard but the foot page for not having the sense to keep his mouth shut. Note how Dillard Chandler's version christens him "little Robert Ford" - a nineteenth century traitor if ever there was one.

Also note how Hedy west's version ends:

"Hark, hark, the dogs do bark,
and the sparrows they do cry.
Today I killed two true loves
And tomorrow I must die."

A fate which certainly would not have befallen the original Lord Barnard.

BTW. I always thought "the man with the horn" was Little Musgrave and that's how he ended up in bed with Lady Barnard in the first place. -:)

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Elmore
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 01:09 PM

Great thread. I enjoy a version of this wonderful old ballad by a young American singer, Elizabeth Laprelle.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 01:47 PM

Never heard of Elizabeth Laprelle, so I just checked her out.

Good "mountain" sound! I sing pretty much the same version of Mattie Groves that she does. She does it well, but she takes it a bit fast for my taste.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 02:16 PM

To address the original question, there isn't any bad guy. They're all jerks - the adulterous wife, the disloyal servant, the tattling pageboy, the vengeful lord. That's the ongoing theme, the ever-present subtext of the old ballads - what jerks the self-styled upper classes are.

Whether they are knights ravishing maidens or lords killing their wives or princesses drowning their sisters, they are all jerks.

An interesting modern work on the same theme here: a photographer returned from the Olympics in London with a photograph of grafitti he saw there. The grafitti showed Queen Elizabeth II (the present queen) dressed as usual, in a fine dress and a hat. Surprisingly, she is holding a dripping paint brush, and on the wall next to her she has scrawled

"God Save the People."

From whom, we ask. And to me the answer was obvious - from her son and her grandsons. (Though to be fair, William doesn't sound as ballad-worthy as the other two.)

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 06:34 PM

Here's a new recording. Multi-tracked backing (concertina, drums, ukulele, rain); song sung straight through.

Little Musgrave

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 03:39 AM

The baddie was me, the other night, trying to sing it whilst under affluence of incohol...

Sorry to all in Leeds that night. I do remember the words, honest.....

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 01:17 PM

Shades of ray Winstone in Scum - Who's the Baddy!

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Dicky boy
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 12:53 PM

Matthew grove is the police and crime commissioner for humberside is he a good guy or bad guy i dont know......maybe a good guy

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 01:08 PM

Some twenty-seven verses of blood, gore, and adultery (at least in the version that I [try to] sing).

Singing that while under the alfluence of incohol can get a bit dicey.

Been there, tried that. Oy!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 01:57 PM

Anyone got the version that Steve Benbow sang - I do have the record (45!) somewhere in Hunt Towers,but could be anywhere under all the other crap...

It starts: It's a holy holy holiday, and the very first day of the year, and the little Musgrave has been to church the holy word to hear.

I love the last verse!
He took her by the lily white hand and led her to the hall
He cut her head from her neck-bone and kicked it against the wall!

By the tune I'd think it was American..

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 02:11 PM

Alcohol or no, I have much more trouble remembering the words of the kind of song where the verses could come in any order (contemporary songs especially, Dylan especially specially) than I ever do with long ballads. I've dried a couple of times at FCs and singarounds, but not because the song was too long. In one case it was between verses 1 and 2 of Nick Drake's "Which Will", a song with ten lines.

With ballads, I find the length doesn't matter if you know which verse comes next, and that's just a matter of knowing where you are in the story. My Musgrave is 26 verses; I leave out a couple of verses ("She cast a look on the little Musgrave" at one end and "Slowly, slowly he rose up" at the other). Once you're on board it just rolls along.

That's not the longest thing I do, though; my Lord Bateman and Earl Richard (aka Young Hunting) are both 35 or 36. One of these days I'll work up a good long Patrick Spens.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 05:28 PM

Ah! Sir Patrick Spens. I still have that one to work on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 07:41 PM

Hearing Peter Bellamy's version - in the Maritime England Suite - blew it open for me. I'd learnt it via Nic Jones, who has Sir P setting off for Norway and being drowned on the way. Bellamy has the King's letter sending them to Norway, then goes straight to
"They had not been in Norrowa'
Weeks but barely three..."

Wha? They got to Norway? Tell me more!

There's a terrific song in there somewhere, for someone who has the patience to trawl through the various different Child versions.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:53 AM

Lord Barnard has died! Many here might think he got away lightly after that double murder.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 11:39 AM

Since we can all agree that either (a) All were guilty, or (b) None were, perhaps the song could be updated to the present day, where instead of people getting killed, the protagonists all go to a Relationship Counsellor (or whatever they are called nowadays) and end up in a multi-person "gender-fluid" (since we're not quite sure which sex the page was) civil partnership/group marriage?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 01:00 PM

The baddie is clearly the one who does all the killing.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 01:45 PM

Guest, while this might not translate outside the US:
Starting with:
And then spoke up his own dear wife never heard to speak so free
I'd rather kiss one dead Mattie's lips than you and your finery.

First 'twas shown on TMZ, now it's trending on the 'Net
Another 'Housewives' show on Bravo will soon start, that is my bet.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 06:46 AM

"And then spoke up his own dear wife never heard to speak so free
I'd rather kiss one dead Mattie's lips than you and your finery."

Necrophilia, adultery, murder - what's not to like? (The only missing ingredient is incest - perhaps Mattie is actually Lord Arlen's wife's brother?).

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:37 PM

> perhaps the song could be updated to the present day

That was done in 2008 (scroll on up). And it hasn't dated too badly ;)

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Pallando
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 12:16 AM

I have had the best hour and a half of my life reading through this... Thanks, guys!

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:11 AM

All were guilty".Wha? They got to Norway? Tell me more!" SIMPLE THEY DIED OF BOREDOM DURING THE LONG WINTER NIGHTS AFTER GETTING FROSTBITE

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:17 PM

I know lots of you hate parodies, but here’s one of mine:

A holiday, Bank Holiday, the fifteenth of the year
Young Matty Jones Tesco’s did go, to get some cut price beer.
And there he spied a fair lady, in the fruit and veggie aisle
Stood behind the melon display, with her come hither smile.
She asked him then to go with her, as she was weighing some plums
He tore her off a paper bag, but was all fingers and thumbs.
I cannot, I will not go, I dare not for my life
I fear you might sue for assault, plus you’re my boss’s wife.
My husband’s gone out on his own, to see the Rangers play
This week Rangers are not at home, so we can play away.
But pausing at the pharmacy, he rushed to Check Out Zone
And found in his bagging area, an item that’s unknown.
A Work colleague did overhear, behind them in the queue
He thought he’d go and call their boss, with Staff Appraisals due.
Fear not, the boss he then replied, once he had learnt the facts
We have a sort of open marriage, plus our pre-nup contract.
He commended him for using their Whistle Blowing Plan
But secretly condemned him, for being a Celtic fan.
He called his wife on her mobile, as she lay in a heap
But failed to arouse her from her post-coital sleep.
Young Matty Jones picked up the phone, and hence confessed to all
Besides it would be much cheaper than to return the call.
He asked about the football match, now looking like a draw
The boss replied: At least this night, there is someone who’s scored.
So how do you like my water bed, and how do you like my sheets?
We got a good deal at Dunelm, in their Spring Sale last week.
Now we’ll I like your water bed, and well I like your sheets
I thought I was on the damp patch, but no, it’s sprung a leak.
Then fearing some litigation, I’m sorry, his boss said
I’ve told my wife before about wearing high heels in bed.
The boss rang off in deep despair, he knew not what to do
The other team had scored a goal before the whistle blew.
He grabbed his coat and headed home, a lowdown sorry man
At least his wife was no longer dating a Celtic fan.
And when he entered their bedroom, he found them both face down
Rather than post-coital doze, the both of them had drowned.
He ran to get his insurance, to check he’d covered all
Then quickly wrote a disclaimer, and pinned it against the wall.
A grave, a grave

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:25 PM

A grave, a grave, he then did cry, to put these lovers in
But bury my lady on the top, that’s how she loved bonking.
Jerry Crossley.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:07 PM

What's all this medieval nonsense? The ballad was most likely written in the 17th century along with many other similar pieces. Also the Barnards and the Musgraves had many estates all over the country, mostly in northern England and southern Scotland, both wealthy landed gentry. As someone said Musgrave would have been sent out to work his way up in another household as a younger son (not the heir). This patchwork of properties throughout the land (and indeed in other lands) was largely due to arranged marriages between the landed gentry.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 08:57 AM

Could it be the vicar who gave a sermon that sexually aroused lord darnells wife?
when the gospel was over she searched around for a bedfellow

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:37 PM

> What's all this medieval nonsense?

That seems the most likely period for the story, even if the ballad wasn't made until much later.

Whoever put (at least a version of) the ballad together chose to give the protagonists names of real families living in the same area, if only for verisimilitude.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 10:57 AM

Hi Richard
'That seems the most likely period for the story'. What is the evidence for that? Very few of the other ballads/stories come from the medieval period. The historical ones generally date from post 1550.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Paul Reade
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:09 PM

I blame the yearlings!

If they had stayed where they were or come home on their own then none of this would have happened.