Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Troll
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 07:56 AM

Liz; remind me to never, never get you pissed off at me.

troll

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: IanC
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 08:09 AM

Re: The Page as baddy.

I think we have to understand personal concepts of fealty in the middle ages to realise that what the page is doing is essentially noble. He usually says something like "I am Lord Darnell's man". Thus indicating that, despite his own preferences in the matter, he has an obligation to his lord. At the period in history we are talking about (I'm assuming it's basically a mediaeval story) society has only just emerged from the situation where it was considered a vile disgrace for a lord's retainers (upper class warriors) to survive him should he be killed in battle. They still regarded it as a moral obligation to belong to their lord, body and soul. It really doesn't make sense to try and impose our own peculiar style of morality on this situation - i.e. blame somebody for doing what he knows is the only reasonable course of action.

Sorry if this sounds pompous but the characterisation of the page as "brown nosed" doesn't appear realistic to me.

Cheers!Ian

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: AndyG
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 08:51 AM

Yay !
Let's hear it for the page.

As I said before it's those holidays.

The Devil finds work for idle hands
being the message of the song.

AndyG

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: dalek
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 09:12 AM

Lord Donald, definitly, for being initialy more concerned with mattys oppinion of his new bedding, than his wife! missing verse..... how do you like my feather bed, and how do you like my sheets, and what about the flock wallpaper and the parker knoll three piece suiet?

DALEK

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Steve B
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 10:14 AM

What a fascinating insight into what is undoubtedley one of our finest ballads.

One question was if the story is based on real events - don't have an answer to this but bearing in mind that Lord Barnard (or whatever) was able to travel the distance in a single night, geography enters into the equation. It is interesting that the ballad is also known as Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard as there are two villages in the north of England called Greater and Lesser (or little?) Musgrave and they are not far from Barnard Castle!! Interesting eh?

As to blame - who knows. It really does depend on individual views/morals and understanding of society in those times but love knows no reason (to quote another song) and causes people to do things out of character sometimes!

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 10:30 AM

Note that naked MEANS unarmed in this context. The version I had (Shep Ginandes) made it clear that it was the (married) woman who was the enticer; the page only did what he was hired to do, Matty Groves was an idiot but not a homewrecker, and everyone seemed to understand why Lord Arling cut off her head with his bitter sword and stove it against the wall, after finding her in bed with someone she then claimed to prefer to him. However, I have a Doc Watson version which makes it just as clear that Matty is a homewrecker. So I'd clear the page, allow the understandable fury of the cuckold, and say that whether Matty or the wife were the instigator depends on who's singing the ballad. And I would put the "blame" if you will on the instigator.

As a (sexist!) aside, I think that when she instigates, he's an idiot, and when he instigates, that she's weak. Go figure...

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: AndyG
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 11:32 AM

Thanks Mrrzy,

If as we believe NAKED implies unarmed in this context LD is keeping his head and saying;
"I won't be accused of MURDER but we will fight a duel to resolve this".
Which would be a legitimate chivalric response to such a event.

Also in Little Musgrave (as I remember it) there's a sequence after the challenge where they leave the bedroom and go down the hall/stairs (?) which would lend further strength it being a duel (trial by combat) rather than a killing "in hot blood".

AndyG

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 11:44 AM

Hmmm...what is all this, a demand for a recount?

Hesperis - congratulations for the best overall analysis of the lot. It was indeed the attempt to establish paternal lineage (always a bit tricky to prove...until very recently) that led to the oppression, imprisonment (in exclusive relationship), and virtual enslavement of women. A pretty sorry situation. Maternal lineage is absolutely obvious and undeniable, and societies based upon it do not oppress their women.

I had a guitar teacher many years ago, an American draft dodger who lived in Toronto, Canada. He was being interviewed by the press one time (being quite a unique character), and he said he couldn't wait for the matriarchy to be reestablished in society. "Why?" asked the interviewer. "Because I'd rather be coddled than obeyed," replied Matthew. :-)

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:09 PM

AndyG, in the version I know best, they don't go down the hall to fight, it seems that the fight happens right in the bedroom, as soon as MG has armed himself (with the lord's better sword). Then when wifey would rather have MG "than you and all your kin" he takes his lady by the hand and leads her down the hall, possibly only so that when he cut off her head and stove it against the wall, it would rhyme.

But as baddies go, what about the one man who blew the horn and warned the lovers? His heart was in the right place but he was disobeying a direct order from his liege... whereas the page, who tattled, can be assumed to be the HUSBAND's employee, and thus faithful, really, even if he was a tattletale. Oops -- the term for that is Whistleblower, right, if it was a good thing to tattle about?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST,Den at work
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:14 PM

I'm only familiar with the Planxty version which I believe was based on the Nic Jones version and anyway society is to blame and they all should have been taken in for questioning. Den. p.s. the page is still a ratfaced little shit.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:34 PM

I think in the version I have, by Fairport Convention, the "page" is a woman! How does that change things?

I'm afraid I lean on the society as a whole as being the baddie. The wife apparently had wanted MG far longer than the time frame of the song. It seems in some versions she went to the church with the intention of bringing someone home. Some may argue that she had that right because that was surely what Lord Arnold was doing but does it really make it right? She had sworn the oath in church and dedicated her life to his (for whatever reason).

I am of my psotion on extramarital relations because I have never had the opportunity to experience one. My viewpoint changes with the circumstances (sorry, but I am human). If I were unhappily married I would probably take the position that the affair was right and proper. In any event it was society that was wrong at the time. All players in this tragedy played according to their roles in society as pointed out above.

As for "when she instigates, he's an idiot, and when he instigates, that she's weak." I would beg to differ. You give any man the opportunity to bed an attractive woman and you will, at the very least, induce such an internal struggle that you should fear for his sanity. The male of this species will follow the dictates of his hormones first and foremost. If he is really strong he will be able to overcome those dictates. If he is weak he will fall (into bed).

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Llanfair
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:41 PM

I thought it was funny, D. Love, Llanfair.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Jacob B
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:42 PM

So is it better to be a Whistleblower or a Hornblower?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Llanfair
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:42 PM

I thought it was funny, D. Love, Mum.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: sophocleese
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 06:56 PM

What I like about this song is its ability to be moulded to whatever view the singer has of the action. The impartiality of the words allows each of us our own revealing views. But I still think I wouldn't want to live then as property and the page might have been able to be quiet, taken longer to get to Lord Arnold, or just indulged in a little blackmail.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 11:12 PM

Hornblower? Yeah, let's hear it for Horatio Hornblower! My favourite nautical figure of all time. Brittania Rule The Waves...

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: balladeer
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 11:55 PM

Oh woe is me Oh woe is thee Why stayed you not my hand? For I have slain the fairest youth Ere lived in all England.

The point is, these people are all very complex and human. The human drama they are caught up in still has the power to thrill. Hundreds of years later, intelligent men and women all over the English-speaking universe continue to ardently debate the details and, in the case of the present thread, attempt to assign blame. I think it's wonderful that so many seem to take an interest.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 01:03 PM

Yes, these are still vital issues today. Why is it that we cannot "love" without staking a claim of ownership. And is that really love? Maybe partly, but it's badly compromised by fear of loss. If we are all one in spirit (which is my belief), then love is a given, and the absence of love is an illness of some kind. I don't necessarily want to see my beloved in another's arms right there in front of me (because I am not completely without fear...yet), but how can I restrict her freedom to find her own happiness...and still claim that I love her? Love is merciful, love allows others to be who they are. All else is illusion, fear, or vanity.

Lord Arlen was taught that he owned his wife. Poor man. Poor woman. And poor Matty Groves.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: clansfolk
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 04:24 AM

What happened to the Page?

The only information I have is that he turned over a new leaf - moved to America and changed his name to Paul Revere (how do you spell that!)

Time to get back to Fylde!!! just think I was there just 5 hrs ago....

Pete

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 10:37 AM

LOL cf, it's good to see that that snivelling page finally amounted to something and became a world class snitch.
It's good to see you back Noreen, I'll pm you. That verse is hilarious. Here's another variation:

How do you like my feather bed,
How do you like my sheets,
And how do you like my dust ruffle,
I got at a white sale cheap.

Frankie,

PS Lovely thoughts, Little Hawk.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 11:15 AM

We sang this last night in a wood, dressed in mediaeval gear - just couldn't help myself, after what was said earlier about the yearlings - I sang how do you like my feather beds and how do you like my sheep! And everyone there thought the page was a snivelling little rat faced tattletale too. He was just as much a possession as Lady Donald, he could have given her a little pleasure? Although it seems he did, to have gotten the clap!!

How do you like my feather beds,
And how do you like my sheep,
And how do you like my new spring lambs,
Served up with tatties and neeps.

Sorry.

LTS

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: DanMulligan
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 11:21 AM

Naemanson..... Here is the verse from Fairport Convention's version that refers to the "page."

"And a servant who was standing by and hearing what was said
He swore Lord Donald he would know before the sun would set
And in his hurry to carry the news, he bent his breast and ran
And when he came to the broad millstream, he took off his shoes and he swam"

Clearly the servent was a "he."
dan

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 11:25 AM

LOL Liz, the "folk process" in action.

F

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 11:25 AM

Seems we still haven't moved beyond the medievil when the majority still wants to shoot the messenger. The Page is the only one I have some sympathy for in this dilema. As pointed out by Troll, he seems to be the only one "forced" to make a moral decision and he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. A very awkward situation for him, not of his own making.

But then again, a lot of bad stuff starts by adherence to ridgid principals, hence the duality of human nature. Lean towards the light.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 11:29 AM

Frankee - don't know about folk process, more like brain processes!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 11:42 AM

Actually I kind of agree, Metchosin. In the versions I've heard I haven't gleaned enough information about the page to know what his motivations were. Perhaps he idolised the lord and was acting the faithful servant and perhaps not.

F

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 11:50 AM

...even more like meat processes, Liz.

F

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: hesperis
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 11:54 AM

Everybody in the ballad had a moment where what they chose to do affected the outcome.
They could not move beyond society's programming, and people died for it.
That's what I see here, anyway.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 12:04 PM

Maybe we forget that the Page was a child with probably a more simplistic view of right and wrong.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: sophocleese
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 12:07 PM

OH No hesperis you mean "They were all helpless victims of a brutal society."

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 12:20 PM

Ah but sophocleese they were not all helpless victims of a brutal society, just their own romantic lust. All of them probably had some point where they could have chosen an anternate action and lived with the consequences, but then that wouldn't have made a good song would it?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 12:23 PM

Is there any reason why I am unable to access the DT?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 12:55 PM

Naemanson and DanMulligan, you're both right- for some reason Simon Nicol has taken to singing of the page as female. I took it be so it sounds more 'exciting' or something when she 'bared her breast and she ran' but who knows? Simon is famous for his grasp (or otherwise)of lyrics.
It wasn't him though who left a whole verse out at Cropredy one year, unfortunately the pivotal verse where Matty snuffs it!

The idea of commenting on the soft furnishings seems to have come from 'Fatty Groves', the Kipper Family's parody of Matty. (DT not accessible at the moment so can't check if this link works, sorry).

Noreen

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Catrin
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM

Wow - just got back - stopping this falling off the bottom of the page(?)

Rushing out - catch you later.

Catrin

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 12:53 PM

No, sophocleese, we are never helpless. There is always a moment of choice. (Otherwise I would probably be dead by now.)

The horrible thing is that so many do not realize this, and so many do not take the time to think for themselves, and so many end up just repeating unhealthy patterns of behaviour.

Children do not really have a choice, but that is partly because we do not teach them how to think. And when they think on their own, it is often beaten out of them.
Then when they are older, they are expected to be "productive" members of society, whatever that means.

Most of the people in this ballad were adults. They each had a choice.

Society bears the greatest share of blame in this (IMHO) because many people do not get out of destructive patterns. Many people do not know that there is a choice, and therefore choose according to what society says is right, rather than thinking it out, deciding, and then acting with confidence on that decision.

If people do not know there is a choice, then society is responsible, for their actions, and for cleaning up the consequences. (IMHO)

By the standards of society at that time, Lady Arlen (or whoever) was the most to blame. (And the page was the least to blame.) And this I do not accept.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 00 - 02:08 PM

Right. I have noticed ever since my stay at Rolling Thunder's camp that people in regular society are absolutely surrounded by a multitude of possible choices...and yet they are utterly unaware of it most of the time.

So they go out to the bars at night, or sit glued to the TV...because they honestly cannot think of one other thing they could do at that moment. There's even a TV in the f*cking bar. Big Brother is watching.

It's pathetic.

What can you expect, though, when people are fed a diet of mental garbage from the time they're old enough to walk?

The overall society is to blame. It has brutalized people and robbed them of the awareness of their own freedom of choice. And if that is so, then the individual people are to blame too...because we all collectively make this society what it is.

So...let's change it. Now. By changing ourselves, one at a time. We have the power.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: balladeer
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:22 AM

Yes. I'm having real difficulty with the "society made them do it" argument. Society is us. We created it to keep us organized. And, of course, we can objectify and, therefore, blame our creation when that suits us.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Naemanson
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:25 AM

Thnks Noreen and DanMulligan. I THOUGHT I'd heard it as the page being female. I haven't had time to listen again yet.

One thing we need to keep firmly in mind is that the incidents depicted in the song have a role in changing the society. People are affected by the song and it impacts their perception of the society around them. And slowly, over the centuries, things are changed. A lot of Matties and Lady Donalds have had to die in the interim but it is now illegal to kill an adulterous couple no matter who you are.

Little Hawk - You commented on Horatio Hornblower. Have you read O'Brian yet? Are you familiar with Aubrey and Maturin?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:34 AM

Just for the record, comments I made about them being helpless victims were strictly tongue in cheek. "Oh dear, oh dear, well I think that an appointment with Mumblethroth Dinglewort ye olde marriage counsellor would be a good idea however, as I'm a helpless victim of society, instead I am driven by forces beyond my strength to offer you, Matty, a sword so that we can trying killing each other in a duel. Would you like the pretty blue one or the Zolton Mega-Thresher?"

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Catrin
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:36 AM

Fascinating!!!

This discussion is reminding me why I love folk music so much. The best folk songs touch on issues that affect all of us, by virtue of our being human. I think that this ballad does allow for different interpretations, hence people's ideas of who is the 'baddy' differ depending upon their own moral standpoint. So it turns fairly quickly into, not a dicussion of the song any more, but rather a philosophical discussion of morals and values infherent in toady's society

I would really like to go back to a question that somebody raised earlier - Is this based on a 'true' event? Anybody know?

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Catrin
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:39 AM

Toady's society?????

I think I meant today's, although perhaps it was an unconsciously expressed opinion (*BG*)

Catrin

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 03:00 PM

Hey, sophocleese, "the unexamined life is not worth living", right? The examined life requires that a person challenge and question all the social, religious, scientific, and ethical conditioning that has been laid upon her by her parents, the schools, the churches, the governmental authorities, and so on. First you challenge and question the "common sense" of your day. Then you formulate hypothetical theories of your own. Then you put those theories to the test in the crucible of actual experience. And then, you are in a position to become a free human being. Unexamined lives do become victims of society, by default, as it were. And it really is their fault, because they could have done some examining, but chose not to.

Oh, yeah...watch out for that "tongue-in-cheek" stuff. Ya do it too much and ya start to look like a chipmunk! :-)

Naemanson - Great point! The song "Matty Groves" has served to enlighten and change society, as have many other songs. And that has got to be the highest calling a folksong or any work of art can possibly have.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 04:39 PM

Well first of all it depends on who is doing the examining....

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Naemanson
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 04:51 PM

If I have to pass an examination of my own life then I want time to study for the test!

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:28 PM

I keep readin' and readin' (all good stuff) but I keep waitin' for Spaw to post sumpin bout "turing a page." Where air ye, Spaw???

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:03 PM

balladeer - Society is pretty big... If people don't know that they have a choice, who is going to clean up the results of their actions? The rest of us. Society.

When individual choices make a society that has such momentum as to prevent certain other individuals from acting in a healthy, sane way, then that is society's fault. You can't find the individuals in any large society who made that society become a reality. And then people are hampered in their choices by what that society says is their choice.

To say that society is to blame is not a way of avoiding individual responsibility.

To say that society is to blame means that we each have the responsibility to affect that society in a sane way.
We each need, through our own actions and decisions, to build a sane society. What I mean by a sane society, is an environment where all people realize they have those moments of choice, and to give them the tools needed to choose well, each according to reality, logic, heart, and their own consciences.

We currently live in a society that is not exactly sane. It was much worse back then.
How much insanity can a normal person take before they go insane?
And if they are overexposed to insanity through no fault of their own, how can you blame them for becoming insane?

Yes, we all still need to clean up the mess, but have some compassion here!

~*hesperis*~

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:15 PM

You are doing the examining, Soph...if it's your life. Me if it's mine.

Naemanson - As for having the time to study...that's what life is, I suppose. We all graduate eventually, with a diploma in Life.

To quote Walt Whitman:

"All goes onward and outward...and nothing collapses, And to die is different from what anyone supposed, and luckier. Has anyone supposed it is lucky to be born? I hasten to inform him or her it is just as lucky to die, and I know it."

Whitman didn't just talk...he listened.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Naemanson
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:51 PM

Actually to paraphrase Pogo:

Don't take life so seriously, nobody survives the experience.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: Brendy
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:15 PM

The page may not have been as magnanimous as we all think.

He was bound to know that information like this would be highly rewarded by his Lord. OK, he may have been 'loyal' to the two of them, the Lord was in a position to hand out a few acres of land, where herself wasn't.

He also assumed that if his information was incorrect he would be killed himself, for defaming his wife, but, perhaps he reckoned that that Matty would still be in the sack with his wife the next morning. Versions differ as to how far away the Lord was on this particular day.

Matty was an eegit for staying the night in the first place, morality questions aside.
The page, lowlife informer that he was, made substantial financial gain out of the whole affair.

He probably wrote the song as well. Matty certainly didn't. Neither did the Lady. And I doubt the Lord would have been in possession of sufficient facts about the matter to write such a detailed account about events that happened when he wasn't there to witness, them.
Wouldn't really be in his best interests to write such a song, would it?

No my money is on a big white wash job by the page.

It's so hard to find decent help these days.

B.

Subject: RE: Matty Groves - who's the 'baddy'?
From: balladeer
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:15 PM

Sophoclees -- I love your marriage-counselling post. My jokes are rarely understood on the net, and now I see I have made the same mistake in missing your irony (sarcasm?)

Hesperis -- I mostly agreed with your last entry, but a) I don't believe it will ever be possible to create a society in which EVERYONE consciously recognizes they have choices and usually makes the socially responsible ones and b) I have no idea why you accuse me of lacking compassion. I just don't subscribe to the notion that "society" and "I" are disconnected units.