 sj |
||
|
||
feminist perspective on folk songs
|
|
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Grab Date: 04 Sep 00 - 10:49 AM Version I heard as a kid had "brother" and "sister" verses, although maybe that's a recent addition. Anyway, as BJ says, would you prefer the woman to be doing the hard work while the guy sits back trimming the sail? Would this merely reflect the fact that when there's hard physical work to do, the man is normally the one doing it, cos he's stronger? Care to deny this? find me any athletics event where women compete on an equal footing with men. A more valid complaint is the tyranny of the old over the young, and of the rich over the poor. Consider "Step it out Mary" - Mary and her lover drown themselves cos her father insists on her marriage, and the prime culprit is the squire/lord who thinks he can buy her. Oh, and the tyranny of the armed forces over men by press-gang and conscription - that's one thing the women didn't have to worry about (although rape and pillage certainly would be a concern). There's a fair selection of stuff out there, though. There's songs about the manipulation and/or betrayal of men by women (Black velvet band, Whiskey in the jar) and vice versa (original House of the rising sun). I'd guess that for most songs about women being done wrong, there's others about men being done wrong. Note that I'm not denying the sexism of the last few hundred years is unpleasant - I find discrimination extremely distasteful. But discrimination takes other forms, and the discrimination which causes ppl to offer jobs to women instead of men, or to coloured ppl over whites, is just as bad as anything going the other way. Show me a campaign organised by feminists to encourage men to become house-husbands, and I'll give feminism a lot more respect. And for god's sake, stop this ridiculous trend of "Women's literature", "Women's history", etc. If there's great literature written by women (and there is plenty!), or great acts done by women (ditto) then they'll feature in literature or history, full stop. If they don't, then the plan CANNOT be to create a separate course for them, otherwise equality can NEVER occur. And you do want equality, don't you? Grab. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: dulcimer Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:18 AM Maybe what any performer ought to consider in performing a song is his/her role in perpetuating the message of the song. And issues here abound. "Michael Rowed" would seem can have several levels with several messages and it always seemed like such an innocent little song. If you like the song simply for its artistic flavor and sing it, are perpetuating chauvanism? If you sing it around a campfire that provides a socializing experience, are you promoting sterotypes of male/female roles? If you don't perform a song because it has some ethnic or racially currently inappropriate words or change the words, are you hiding and distorting the past? Do you endorse the viewpoint of a song, simply by performing it? This forum has certainly considered these issues many times, but I think it is important for each performer to think about what his/her songs says and when and where they are performing it. With any song there are always going to reasons to perform it and reasons not to perform it. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: WyoWoman Date: 04 Sep 00 - 11:30 AM I have an idea, Deborah. Why don't you go ahead and join the Mudcat and get out of the "guest" mode? It's so much nicer to have someone who is so obviously interested in deep, serious, intellectually challenging discussions, as you SO obviously are -- even though your question was answered by about post #4 -- become a full member of the 'Cat, with all its attendant responsibilities and privileges. WW |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Biskit Date: 04 Sep 00 - 12:40 PM Well put Grab,Oh and by the way Deborah,A hearty, warm and love filled welcome. -Biskit- |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 04 Sep 00 - 03:52 PM There are many offensive songs, just as there are offensive people. Most of the time we get to choose the songs we sing and the songs to which we listen. If a song offends you, then you put it away. If you fear it offends others, you can put it away. Jeri was wondering about songs more offensive to women. I think the blues provides some of that. I immediately think of this line: "I feel like snappin' a pistol, babe, in your face. You know that graveyard will be your restin' place. That woman is killin' me, she's killin' me by degrees." Why would anyone stay in that relationship, man or woman? Beats me. I am attracted to the powerful way the statement is made. Is he angry! You bet he is! Would I sing it? I don't think so. Would I listen to it again? In a heartbeat. Roger in Baltimore |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Biskit Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:05 PM Thats why they call `em the "Blues" Roger If all was hunky dorrie and everbody was gettin along, they'd have to call it somethin' else.-Biskit- |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST,John Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:23 PM Has anyone yet pointed out that Michael is DYING? Does anyone really want to demand to switch places with him? |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Jon Freeman Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:32 PM Tell me something, if the song went,
Michelle row the boat ashore... Who whould make an issue of it - the men or the femanists? Jon |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Mbo Date: 04 Sep 00 - 09:42 PM Well let me tell you, I rarely ever drive without my sister who acts as my co-pilot and safety officer (so she calls herself.) She works the windshield wipers, the radio, the AC & heater, the cell phone--while I drive. She handles all that, ensuring that my mind stays focused on driving and driving safely. She takes it very seriously. Since when is a man & woman working effectively as a team considered sexism? Have you even seen women boatswains in male rowing teams? They take their jobs seriously, and though they aren't doing the rowing, they are respected by the rowers as an integral part of the team. --M |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Lox Date: 04 Sep 00 - 10:00 PM Deborah. After writing your short essay, you haven't actually "discussed" the issue any further, despite having posted 3 times. Would you like to develop your opinion or just say thankyou to those who are patting you on the head, whilst attacking Mbo, whose comment about pigs was SELF depracating. If you want to row, then take the oars and steer your boat where you want it to go. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: CamiSu Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:45 AM Grab-- Distance swimming (i.e. English Channel) Auto Racing (not strength,true. But coordination and guts) Carrying packs, water and children (Stuff carried on the hips). And both rowing and trimming sail take upper-body strength. You know, I don't mind doing the heavy work, as long as I'm not trying to carry 70% of my body weight up 3 flights of stairs. I'll let that fall to the people for whom it's only 40%. (But then I've not been much of one to talk a lot about feminism. I've just done what I wanted, even if it's something 'traditionally' a 'man's job', and encouraged other women to do the same. p.s. My husband does most of the cooking and laundry around here, and mops the kitchen floor more often than I do. My son and daughter both do stuff based on what needs to be done, not on gender roles.) |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST,John Bauman Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:11 AM Does anyone see the ironic connection between this thread and the "451 Farenheit" thread. With best of intentions we start saying that some works have a right to exhist but others... |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Grab Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:31 AM CamiSu, I'll give you swimming! :-) But that's apparently cos women's bodies have more fat deposits, which (a) help buoyancy, and (b) keep the warm in and the cold out. Sailing - yes, again, although that's not really an athletic event. I think the Olympic dinghy-racing is segregated though. Tempting as it is to get into a discussion on mixed and non-mixed sports, I'll drop it now! Enough off-topic for the moment. :-) Grab. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: SINSULL Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:37 AM I am with Spaw on this. Why the hell is he rowing a sailboat? Obviously, Michael is drunk. Sister is trying to salvage the trip. And once again again some drunken sot is screwing up the life of a perfectly capable woman who if she had any sense would have made the trip alone. I am in sore need of a definition of the "feminist perspective". I spent years working my butt off to prove that a woman could function and excel in a "man's"job. I fought for equal pay for equal work and got it. I demanded that a woman who chose to work in the home receive the same respect as men and women who chose to work outside the home. And through it all I maintained my femininity. Now I find that I was misled and the crux of the feminist movement revolves around not being allowed to row. For the record, my brothers made me row and fling chum besides. I prefer sail trimming. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:24 AM That's right, CamiSu, defying gender roles RULES! After all, I am the best kitchen-cleaner in Eastern North Carolina! ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Hollowfox Date: 07 Sep 00 - 11:22 AM Hi, Deborah, welcome to the party. One person who has really done her homework on your question is Peggy Seeger. At Old Songs festival a couple of years ago, she did a *very* thorough workshop over the course of two days. There is a synopsis at her website: (www.pegseeger.com), and if you ever get a chance to attend this particular workshop, it will be well worth your time. As for MHO, yes, there is sexism in all the traditional performing arts, most but not all male sexism. Since these traditional performances come from the past, they reflect the attitudes of the past, or they wouldn't have been created in the first place. How we handle this stuff today is another matter, and that reflects our attitudes at this time. I know a version of "Wife wrapped in a wether's skin" (a bouncy ditty that advocates wife-beating), but I don't sing it. I dearly love humor in performance, including bawdy songs, burlesque routines, and the limerick song, but here, too, I'm selective between what I know and what I share. All the songs, etc, discussed on the 'Cat have been around for a long time, for various reasons. There are some songs I sing that have boring lyrics, but the tunes/harmonies are a joy to my heart. There are some that have boring tunes, but compelling words. And remember, some of thes pieces - and their uses - change over time. The song "Wraggle-Taggle Gypsies" is based on a lady running away with the gypsies, and the lord had all the gypsies killed. There was probably a ballad that included this part, but the versions that most people know end with the lady telling her husband to buzz off. The listener draws quite a different conclusion from the two versions. Also, to paraphrase Peter Bellamy: "...to describe something doesn't automatically mean that you agree with it." |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Catrin Date: 07 Sep 00 - 12:01 PM Well, I don't know how I've missed this thread. Lots of thoughts on it but I think if singing songs which express an attitude which offends you, its usually not too difficult to find ones that do. I used to sing Annachie Gordon (occasionally as its so long) because I believe that even though the end was so tragic, it was Jeannie's way of refusing to conform. There was no way she was going to sleep with this bloke, even if she had to die. So she died, which I think took some strength. I ma now much more likely to sing Jock of Hazledean (ironically written by a man - Walter C. Scott) because she gets to run off with her lover.
The whole issue is so complex. I find the whole topic extremely exciting and only sing those songs which make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck - and even then there's too many to choose from.
|
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: LR Mole Date: 07 Sep 00 - 12:39 PM Ah, well...don't welsh on a bet. Or gyp anyone. Or have too much dutch courage--might have to call the paddy wagon, and go the place where you might get the french disease.Whatever happened to the (usually unnecessary) phrase,"Meaning no offense, but..."?Ain't there enough intentional pain caused in this old world? |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Lox Date: 07 Sep 00 - 01:31 PM A SONG! ...by Cindy Lee Berryhill. It's called "Damn, I wish I was a man". It is very funny, and I recommend it accordingly for men and women of all ages. This is feminist folk at its' best |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: folk1234 Date: 07 Sep 00 - 03:17 PM Welcome to Mudcat, Deborah. I truly hope you join up. From time to time you may even want to sling a little mud on other 'catters when you think they've earned it. Now about MRTBA, it is a song of life. Michael represents all of MANkind, while Sister, who may not be Michael's sister, represents all of WOMENkind. They are on a long journey, as we all are, "to the other side". Throughout the arduous journey to the distant, but unknown, promised land, Michael is the traditional hard-working-but-not-to-bright laborer. Sister, on the other hand, seemingly sits quietly and unnoticed in the background. However, it is she who provides subtle course corrections as she so skillfully trims (not with a scissors, Jeri! - How dumb of you! LOL Phil) the sails. If she does her job correctly, there will be "milk and honey on the other side". |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Sep 00 - 04:17 PM As to why someone is "rowing a sailboat", it could be that there are two vessels. The vessel with the sails is a ship (not a boat) and Michael is rowing the ship's boat, (dinghy, cutter, whatever) ashore. Sister is left aboard the ship. "Boat" in maritime terms usually means a small watercraft, and the big one is a ship. On the other hand, on the Great Lakes one of those huge ore carriers is not a ship but a boat, for some reason. The same floating object on the sea would be a ship. And just to make things more confusing, a submarine, even though its home is the sea, is "a boat". Don't ask me why. DAve Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: mousethief Date: 07 Sep 00 - 04:19 PM I always thought this song was about the underground railroad, and escaping slavery to freedom in the North. It seems to me that finding deprecatory gender roles in this song is just a case of looking too hard for something to be offended by. The point is that everybody's help is required for the escaped slaves to make it to freedom (or whatever the actual goal is, if I've got that part wrong). On the sailing aspects, note that he isn't rowing the boat the whole way; he's rowing it ASHORE. The last 10 feet, maybe, of the whole trip. Sister sailed the thing all the way across the river, and for the last 10 feet Michael gets to row. Who is offended now? The feminists, since Michael made Sister do all the hard work and only pitched in for the last 10 feet? Or the masculinists, since Sister got to do the fun part, and Michael had to do the boring physical labor when the fun part was over? See what I'm driving at? You can slice anything any way. This is why so much of the fault-finding done by feminists is characterized as "whining" by men -- if you find fault with EVERYTHING (it's like the boy (or girl!) who cried wolf), then your credibility goes way downhill. Finding fault with MRTBA is a little over-the-top. There are plenty of women-hating songs out there to bash, if bash you must. Better yet why not write, or dig up, some songs that have positive things to say about women? I have known some very strong and capable women, who have done things I'm not at all sure I would be able to do (my mother, her mother, and my wife come instantly to mind), and whom I admire greatly. But I also think 32-20 Blues, which is about a man planning to shoot his girlfriend, has some of the most incredible guitar work I've ever heard. Somebody mentioned "My Husband Has No Courage In Him" as a song with a pro-female (or at least anti-male) POV. What about "Single Girl, Married Girl"? This is as anti-domestic-servitude a song as one could wish! But what do I know? I'm married and have kids, so I'm obviously an abusive rapist, right?
O..O |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Marymac90 Date: 07 Sep 00 - 05:13 PM Wow! A thread with a lot of meat in it! (Hope I haven't offended any vegeterians by that.) Deborah, I am very much a feminist, and will argue with Max about women's issues, women as performers, etc, on Mudcat Radio. Tolk about Sister representing Womankind on the boat-I'm there representing womankind on MUDCAT RADIO!!! What an awesome responsibility! Well, Deborah, by now you see that I may be a feminist, but I'm another one of these Mudcatters with a really irreverent sense of humor. I guess that most of us who stick around here enjoy the banter. Now, on to the topic at hand... "Michael" is hardly as offensive as the many "Murder the woman" songs, such as Banks of the Ohio, or Max's favorite, Deliah. But it is a reflection of a culture that defined work as "man's work" and "woman's work". Jeri, remember, if you're changing ballads, Peter Blood has gotten onto a lot of people's s*** list for changing lyrics in his book, Rise Up Singing, and it's predecessor, Winds of the People. Thank you, Noreen, for reminding me of where I had seen the Isles of Langerhans referred to before. And to think I was gonna check an ATLAS!!! Very clever, Jeri! I guess flattop has answered the question of why the folks trying to row the sailboat are so weird-they're all three sheets to the wind! As for Mbo, he's been inadequately socialized. We're working on him, but he's as thin skinned as many feminists without senses of humor. We take turns jumping on his case, encouraging him to grow up, and letting him know we still love him. He may be a juvenile, but he's OUR juvenile! Sophocleese has a lot of good stuff to say, and is right on about women performers at festivals, etc. That also carries over at open sings, etc, which is why I strongly prefer an open circle, where everyone in the circle gets a chance to sing, etc. Otherwise, you wind up with the "guys with the guitars" determining what everybody sings, based on what THEY know how to play!!! CamiSu gave some good information about the Michael song coming from the Georgia Sea Islands. I hadn't known that. dulcimer proposed that omitting or changing songs with inappropriate songs might be a way of hiding or distorting the past. Perhaps if one was doing a historical presentation to historians, one might want to present certain songs, but certainly not to general audiences. There are songs with the "N" word, for instance, that I wouldn't sing, though I wouldn't argue that they had never existed. There are songs from the Nazi era that I wouldn't promote. The little pieces of a people's culture all accumulate to describe and promote that culture. I prefer to sing and promote songs that reflect a view of the world, as I would like to see it evolving, but of course it isn't there yet. I also sing songs that expose some injustices that people may not be aware of, and those that celebrate people who have taken action for justice. RiB made a very thoughtful statement. Songs may be a valid expression of feelings that have a real meaning to us, even if we wouldn't want to promote the action discussed. Bruce Cockburn's song "If I had a Rocket Launcher" comes to mind. Hollowfox, I never knew that the Lord had all the Gypsies killed. There's something else I've learned on this thread. So Lox, where's the "I wish I was a Man" song. It reminds me of the song Uncle Bonsai sang "If I had a Penis". And speaking of equal treatment, there's Judy Small's song, "the IPD". Well, Deborah, I hope you feel like there's been a lot of good stuff said in this thread, and you haven't let our outrageous MUDCAT sense of humor chase you away. But be careful-it's contagious! Love to you and all the other posters, Marymac
|
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: mousethief Date: 07 Sep 00 - 05:25 PM I love that Uncle Bonsai song! I remember I had a weird conversation with a born-again Christian about that song, back when *I* was a born-again Christian. He was horribly offended by it, but I couldn't really get him to say why, when there were other things (scatalogical jokes, etc.) which did not offend him. (I thought it just as funny then as I do now. Although one in the hand is NOT worth one in the bush, if you will allow me to say so.) I finally came to the conclusion that he was offended in his maleness, and somehow transferred that to an offense against God. Forgive my ignorance, but who is Judy Small? I usually am the "guy with the guitar" but if there is something someone wants to sing, and I can't play it, I'll sing it a capella (or hand over my guitar to someone who can play it). Generally, like you, Marymac (is that your name? My mother-in-law is Marybec), I only play songs that I like and somewhat agree with in message. But that's part of the Folk way, right?
O..O |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST,Peter, the Netherlands Date: 07 Sep 00 - 06:45 PM Accidentily I hit this site because I love, play and sing (Irish)folkmusic.I visit Ireland every year and fortunatily I never experienced any feminist commenting on the songs we sang. Example: The Irish Folk song "Whiskey in the Jar" contains a line: "May the devil take the women for they never can be easy". I love and need women (and they need men!)but do you feminists really want people stop singing these songs??!! Wake up girls, these songs are very old and at least in Ireland women clap, dance and chear when singing this song!Let it stay that way. I'm utterly astonished that feminists now also want to give their comments on Folk music. For example: This discussion about who is rowing the boat ashore. My advise to any feminist: Step into a boat with a nice hunk of a man (I mean: let him lift you into the boat). then let him row to the middle of the lake, have some good love making and let him row you back and let him bring you home. (much better than doing it all yourself) You will looove it!..... Peter |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Liz the Squeak Date: 07 Sep 00 - 07:30 PM You can't do that in a boat, it creates a bow wave and you sink. You also get disqualified from the race..... LTS |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Áine Date: 07 Sep 00 - 07:44 PM Dear Peter, the Netherlands, Darlin', If I was a single girl again, I'd go 'rowing' with you anytime!! -- Aine |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Lox Date: 07 Sep 00 - 07:49 PM Marymac, I will post it in a minute as soon as I've written the words down. Liz, I am in awe of your practicality. lox (ROTFLMAO.) |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST Date: 08 Sep 00 - 03:27 AM Dear Liz and Aine, Thanks for your reactions, they sound very nice, something I didn't expect. Where in the world are you from, how about nice folksongs from that area? Peter. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST,Peter, the Netherlands Date: 08 Sep 00 - 03:34 AM Dear Aine (that sounds like an Irish name,lovely), thanks for your reaction . That sounded very nice. I'm not single myself, but I do own a little boat, so who knows..... Which part of the world do you live, and are there any nice folksongs overthere? Bye, Peter |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: The Shambles Date: 08 Sep 00 - 08:43 AM From The Mudcat Songbook, |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: The Shambles Date: 08 Sep 00 - 08:46 AM A Mere Man. I told you. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: harpgirl Date: 08 Sep 00 - 08:55 AM ..and when I was done enjoying your delights Peter, I'd take up with the little guy behind the boathouse who runs fast!!!! hahahahaha harp |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: LR Mole Date: 08 Sep 00 - 10:54 AM " Now in this time of confusion, I have need of your company." (says Gnossos) |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: DAMN, I WISH I WAS A MAN^^ From: Lox Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:06 AM Go on Michael, row, row, harder, faster, harder, faster... Hold on sister, trim your sails, we're nearly there...puff...pant... As you can see, it's really a song about incest. In the meantime, here's Cindy Lee Berryhills song. Enjoy:
"Damn, I wish I was a man" by Cindy Lee Berryhill (1987 Rhino Records)
Damn, I wish I was a man
Damn, I wish I was a man
Damn, I wish I was a man
Damn I wish I was a man
Damn, I wish I was a man This song is sung very tongue in cheek. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Áine Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:08 PM Dear Peter, Oh well, you've got the boat over in the Netherlands, and there's no water left over here in Texas after this summer's drought. Even the Piney Woods are burning down. Maybe in another reincarnation we can 'set sail' together -- you can row (hahaha) and I'll play with those white things on sticks. We have a lot of great Texas folk songs, and I'm sure you've heard a few of them. All the best and welcome, welcome, welcome to the Mudcat, Aine (and yes, my name is Irish) |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Tinker Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:48 PM JUst a quick expansion on Mousetheif's Underground railroad theory. My husband remembers it being written up as one of the code songs (Like Drinking Gourd) that gave directions and encouragement to both the the slave headed to freedom and those who would help him/her on their way. Sister help to trim the sails was a request to help smooth the way. Very few slaves had traveling freedom and the ability to talk to others from even neighboring plantations. House slaves particularly maids who would accompany the ladies of the house could pass on the message that someone was beginning the journey. River Jordan is deep and wide (difficulties of the journey ) Milk and honey on the other side (Land of Milk and Honey = Caanan = Freedom). As one of the formost conductors, Harriet Tubam didn't hold with any female stereotypes. I tend to use the .."Those who don't learn history are bound to repeat it philosopy" Folk songs can be a great way to open discussion on how things have changed. Daily Growing with its father dictated marriage between a 24 year old daughter and 14 year old boy always gets rapt attention and discussion when we review Child Ballads in the 3rd grade Midevil study unit. Boys and girls both take offense at being bossed by the grown ups. It adds a "reality check " to history if we use folk songs to take a snap shot of where peoples relationships were when the evnts were happening.By the time the PC police clean it all up there isn't much meat left on the bone to hold anyone's attention.
|
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST,sula Date: 09 Sep 00 - 07:24 AM I have heard the female genitalia referred to as a Man in a boat,(how sexist is that!) And the rowing is a very back and forward sort of movement isn't it?. Trimming the sails would sortof fit in with the anatomy also. Another song I have wondered about whether it is as innocent as it seems is the nursery rhyme "I had a little nut tree" The silver nutmeg and golden Pear sound similar to fruits bourne at either end of the male member. Now wonder the King of spains daughter travelled such a long way! Maybe I'm just obsessed! |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: SINSULL Date: 09 Sep 00 - 08:48 PM Question to Liz: Was that practicality or the voice of experience? Mary |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: Susanne (skw) Date: 09 Sep 00 - 09:08 PM This thread reflects the difficulty faced by all those people trying to fight gender (and any other form of) discrimination: Most of it is in the eye of the beholder - meaning, we all perceive and judge the same occurrence against an individual backdrop of personal opinions and experiences which makes it hard to agree on anything. I think Deborah's reading of 'Michael' is legitimate. It fits her 'backdrop', and I cannot argue with that. On the other hand, although I consider myself one of that despised and vilified (in this thread, too!) breed of 'feminists', I wouldn't read it in the same way because the version I know also has an anonymous 'brother' in it. As has already been pointed out, there are quite a few folk songs which could be seen as discriminatory against women. My remedy wouldn't be not to sing them but to put them in perspective by an appropriate intro. This would create much more awareness of the issue than just avoiding them. Few people have considered me humourless so far, but I didn't find a shred of humour in a couple of the initial responses. They may have been meant to be funny, but I felt the contributors were just being rude about something they either didn't understand or pretended not to. Again, a matter of perception. The best policy might indeed seem to ignore such comments - but is it really? You may be aware that in Germany problems with right-wing organisations are growing again - partly, I believe, because people keep saying 'ignore them, we know what they're like', and few people have the courage to stand up to them and tell them 'We think your opinions are harmful', which might (just) cause one or two of them to have second thoughts. (Note: I am NOT meaning to say any Mudcatters' opinions are fascist! Certainly not! I just wanted to point out a matter of principle.) Peter, the Netherlands: How old are you? I've had this 'a spot of good sex will put you right, girls' attitude from old men of military background, but thought it had mercifully died out. Most women I know can live happily without sex unless they have a really good partner because they know from experience that most men are not good at sex (at least not the way women would like it - perception again ...) Mousethief, if you've managed to read through to here, Judy Small is an Australian folksinger and feminist. Some of her songs should be in the DT or in the forum, and she has several CDs out. Her website can be found here. She once told me that sometimes during her more radical songs, like the already mentioned 'IPD' (which I find radically funny! It's in the forum.), the venue's sound system unaccountably packs up ... Sorry for rambling on, but this is a really interesting thread, with far too many points to take up all at once. - Susanne |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: mousethief Date: 11 Sep 00 - 12:14 PM Thanks, Susanne! I'll look her up. I also like what you say about "an appropriate intro." I love the song "Two Magicians" (the version I'm familiar with is the Steeleye Span one), but it requires an intro because of the reference to the "coal-black smith" -- if you don't understand the background it sounds like it's degrading persons of colour. But the real reason she doesn't like him for being coal-black is much simpler and more easily defensible -- he's not a black guy she hates for being black, but a white guy who NEVER TAKES A BATH! Once you explain that, the song no longer puts sensitive people on edge and the humor of it is more easily swallowed. Other songs really are written from a discriminatory POV, however, and the introduction would have to reflect that. I'm definitely against bowdlerization in all forms, however. "Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it." |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST,Peter, the Netherlands Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM Dear Aine, thanks for your very warm welcome. Tell me, are you really a feminist and tell me more about your points of view in this matter. I couldn't find an Irish folksong with your name in it, but there is one (woman friendly!)thatI know that sounds a bit like it: "Gentle Annie". A very friendly song towards women. Two verses: "Fair and lovely Annie, Your gentle ways have won me You bring peace and joy and laughter everywhere Where you go, the sunshine follows, You're a breath of spring in winter And my heart and soul are always in your care" "When the mountains all come tumbling And the earth ha stopped it's turning When the winds don't blow and stars refuse to shine When the moon has left the heavens And the seven seas are empty I will still have Gentle Aine on my mind...." Isn't it lovely? |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST,Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 11 Sep 00 - 06:42 PM You're just angry at MBO because YOU wanted to call him and us pigs and he stole you're line! It appeared to me to be a fairly well-meaning, tongue-in-cheek joke. It seems to me we've had some really nasty people on here making all kinds of downright distasteful posts and although we all thought it, we didn't lash out so vehemently as to swear about it. I usually give Mbo a hard time just in good fun(blasting some of his favorite artists etc.) but I gotta agree with him on this one. (Although I'm still not listening to Oasis!) And come to think of it, a song that portrays the woman as a skilled artisan (seamstress) and the man as a grunt whose only use is putting his back into the oars should be offensive to men, if anybody. ;-) LOL Slán agat, Rich |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: mousethief Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:05 PM FYI for landlubbers: "trim the sails" means change the angle of the sail vis-a-vis the wind. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: mousethief Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:21 PM FYI for landlubbers: "trim the sails" means change the angle of the sail vis-a-vis the wind. Has nothing to do with sewing. :-) There's an apparently Australian song called "Gentle Annie" on a Bok/Muir/Trickett album I own, but it's quite different from what you post, Peter. I wonder if they're at all related.
You're mutton's very sweet, Gentle Annie
(chorus) Songs found via www.google.com: |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: harpgirl Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:56 PM ...I thought this was a windup as well and still do. Anyone who has been lurking for awhile knows we have to use humor to diffuse the feelings which certain topics arouse. Need I mention religion, politics, and the war of the sexes? I think you are trolling, my dear. But I found this thread fascinating and I applaud the restraint that certain individuals applied in their answers. I wasn't offended by the provocative answers, either. And hey, how could we even define feminism without its opposite? And Buddha knows I'm no feminist! |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: GUEST,Steve Beisser Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:49 PM Deborah, I quote Willie Nelson's song title and offer it to you as advice if you don't like the sexism in folk songs: "WRITE YOUR OWN DAMN SONGS" That's what I do... I am a Christian and I cannot stomach much of what is called music these days... Instead of bemoaning my fate or compromising my faith by playing these awful things for a buck, I write my own and never once pause to care whether anyone likes them or not. They're mine. If a sexist pig doesn't like songs about free-willed, independent women, tough stuff for them, I guess. I stay at home and write songs and minister online (I am a preacher as well as a musician) while my wife has the job that takes care of the immediate money needs. In short, Deborah, just write from your heart and let God inspire you. You can't go wrong that way. |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: M.Ted Date: 12 Sep 00 - 02:23 PM Nobody has really addressed Deborah's question--about whether this is a "sexist" song or not, that is to say, if the relationship described in the song is one based on sexist roles--it isn't--in fact,it is a song about liberation. The term "sister" is refers to someone who is an equal--it would not be a stretch of any kind to say that the "sister" relationship described in this song is the same relationship that feminists see themselves as having to one another. S'paw asked the important question--why are they rowing and sailing at the same time? You don't do that. Why is the river Jordan mentioned? They couldn't be literally rowing or sailing on it, since it is in Israel, not Georgia. As someone (sorry, I am to lazy to read the thread again to give you proper credit) has pointed out, these spirituals were filled with encoded revolutionary messages--the biblical allusions were really references to the real and ongoing struggle to escape from slavery, as well as to real and tangible efforts to overthrough the system, and to the day that the system would be over thrown and all people would be free (what did you think MLK meant when he said, "I have seen the promised land"? Wake up, people!!!) The struggle against slavery, as well as the struggle for woman's rights and social equality was a religious idea--and when people called one another "Brother" and "Sister" as did the Quakers(and the communists, socialists, and union members) well as the unions, the implication was that there was a bond of kinship between all people, and that in that was an equal (brother-sister) rather than paternal (Father-Daughter/son) relationship. I don't remember whether it was Lucretia Mott or Susan B. Anthony who said that the equality of men and women was a logical extension of Quakerism, since if God spoke through women, men had no right to prevail over women, since no man could override the word of God.
|
|
Subject: Lyr Add: INVISIBLE WOMEN From: belfast Date: 21 Sep 02 - 12:08 PM I'm refreshing this thread partly because it seems like an occasionally interesting and entertaining debate. And partly to post the lyrics of this little song which could be considered as a contribution to this debate.
INVISIBLE WOMEN
The singer sing a rebel song
For they sing of "The Bold Fenian Men"
Ireland, Mother Ireland, with your freedom-loving sons |
|
Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs From: MAG Date: 21 Sep 02 - 01:24 PM "What I don't know about Maud Gonne" -- a signifigant essay about, oh, 30+ years old now. The Irish partisan who is better known as Yeats' Beatrice. |
| Share Thread: |