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Origin: House Carpenter

DigiTrad:
HOUSE CARPENTER
THE DEMON LOVER
THE HOUSE CARPENTER (II)


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Joe Rae's Daemon Lover (4)
Lyr Req: Child 243 on Bronson (16)
Lyr Req: House Carpenter (#243 - Jean Ritchie) (17)
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Lyr Req: cyril tawney's carpenter's wife (#243) (18)


Mini Me 05 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 05 Sep 00 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 05 Sep 00 - 12:55 PM
Art Thieme 05 Sep 00 - 01:28 PM
Bert 05 Sep 00 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 05 Sep 00 - 03:11 PM
Art Thieme 05 Sep 00 - 11:58 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 06 Sep 00 - 12:08 AM
Sourdough 06 Sep 00 - 02:56 AM
Art Thieme 06 Sep 00 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 06 Sep 00 - 01:24 PM
Sorcha 14 Oct 00 - 07:22 PM
Jacob B 15 Oct 00 - 06:09 PM
CBjames 15 Oct 00 - 11:09 PM
Sorcha 15 Oct 00 - 11:42 PM
GUEST,Skylark 16 Oct 00 - 06:01 PM
toadfrog 25 May 02 - 12:59 AM
GUEST,Christine Dowling 28 Nov 07 - 10:33 AM
Peace 28 Nov 07 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 25 Jan 09 - 07:05 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Jan 09 - 07:31 AM
Suegorgeous 25 Jan 09 - 07:34 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Jan 09 - 07:53 AM
Malcolm Douglas 25 Jan 09 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,DWR 25 Jan 09 - 03:27 PM
MartinRyan 25 Jan 09 - 04:00 PM
masha 26 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM
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Subject: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Mini Me
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM

Dear Catter's, I will be performing this song, House Carpenter , very soon and I would like to discuss it's origin. Can you help me on the following : What country the song comes from, how old the song is, Is it true or myth, meaning , etc. Thank you all so much.


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 12:34 PM

See the song in the Laurence Price file on my website. He wrote in in Feb. of 1657. (www.erols.com/olsonw)


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 12:55 PM

Sorry, the original title is "A Warning for Married Women", and 17th century broadside issues are listed at ZN2466 in the broadside ballad index on my website.


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 01:28 PM

As far as I know this song was written about 1975 by a singer/songwriter in old Town who was also an engineer on the EVANSTON EXPRESS CTA train line (Chicago Transit Authority) -- an elevated train affectionately called "the L" in Chicagoland and environs. Evanston is the first suburb north of Chicago on Lake Michigan. Just North of Evenston in the suburb called Wilmette (where George and Gerry armstrong lived for so many years).

When the train got to the end of the Evanston line, he always used to shout out their location. Therefore the first verse of the song:

"Wilmette, Wilmette, Wilmette", he cried,
"Wilmette, Wilmette", cried he,
"I've just returned from the salt, salt sea,
And it's all for the love of thee."

(In Chicago we were always certain thiat this actually referred to Lake Michican which looked like an ocean because you could not see the other side of it.

;-) Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Bert
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 02:02 PM

Bruce, you are bloody amazing.

'He wrote in in Feb. of 1657' - He says, all casual like. - Just incredible.


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 03:11 PM

I found the author's initials were on a copy of the broadside from the sale catalog of Richard Herber's library, c 1832. A later catalog of the collection published by John Russell Smith left the initials off, so final confirmation came only on the publication of the Euing Collection, 1971 (Euing #377 is the one with the author's initials). H. E. Rollins 'Analytical Index to the Ballad Entries' lists Child ballads in the Index, but he didn't recognize this one as such. Later issues of broadside ballads usually dropped author's initials, which is why I've tried to locate all issues for the broadside ballad index on my website (for that and for finding when a tune is first named).


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:58 PM

Jeez, Brujce, I coulda sworn it was from this guy in Old Town...

Art


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:08 AM

Well, independent reinvention isn't absolutely impossible. After all, in one of G. Legman's books he notes a limerick of which he had claims from three men as to their authorship of it. Since the limerick was in English he was hesitant about accepting the claim from the man who could speak little of it, but that still left two authors.


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Sourdough
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 02:56 AM

Bruce O.

The ballad makes wonderful reading. It is like suddenly finding the unabridged version to a story you already know and love.

Thanks -

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:15 PM

Folks, I wasn't serious. My whole 'history' of the song from 1975 was made up by me. It was just a joke. That's why I stuck a ;-) on there.

Art


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:24 PM

And you don't think anyone else can understand your sense of humour? Or mine? Both of my grandfathers were house carpenters, (among other things), but living near the middle of the US there weren't any sailors around to run off with their wives (fortunately for me).


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 07:22 PM

OK, new question about house carpenters. Is it good luck to know one, bad luck to piss one off, etc, and where did that come from? I am guessing it has something to do with St. Joseph.........any help here?


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Jacob B
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 06:09 PM

If you are having one do work on your house, it is definitely bad luck to piss him off.

Jacob


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: CBjames
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 11:09 PM

Here in Eastern Canada a "carpenter" is what the rest of you might know as a "sow bug" or a "pill bug" or a "wood louse".

Put's a whole different dimension on "If Iwere a carpenter, and you were a lady ...."

j


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 11:42 PM

I really did mean this in connection with the ballad, House Carpenter. The lady blows off her husband (house carpenter) and kids, and dies. Did have something to do with the carpenter mystique, or because she was married to anybody at all, or because the guy she ran off with was a Daemon?


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: GUEST,Skylark
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 06:01 PM

Better than a daemon---he was a sailor. God knows they are easy to run off with. :-)


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 May 02 - 12:59 AM

Is it a real true story? And if the ship sank to the bottom of the sea, how did the word get out? Was this guy Price truly a reliable source?


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: GUEST,Christine Dowling
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 10:33 AM

Thanks alot, Art. Here's me, sitting in Belfast,7.5 years after your original post spitting coffee all over my keyboard.

You never know what you'll find on mudcat!

Now I'm off to send this to my parents who live in Wilmette.
You made this Chicago native's day!


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Subject: RE: History on ' House Carpenter '
From: Peace
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 11:08 AM

"Was this guy Price truly a reliable source? "

Bob Barker seemed to think so.


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Subject: RE: Origin: House Carpenter
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:05 AM

As far as I can recall (without checking) he's a SHIP'S carpenter in the British versions and a house carpenter in the American versions.


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Subject: RE: Origin: House Carpenter
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:31 AM

My personal favourite is that beautifully sung by Mrs Pearl Brewer, of Pochahantas, Arkansas on November 12, 1958 - have a listen Here.


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Subject: RE: Origin: House Carpenter
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:34 AM

Bruce's link doesn't seem to work any more... shame.


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Subject: RE: Origin: House Carpenter
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:53 AM

Ignore that last post; that's me first thing on Sunday morning getting a bit mixed up with my Max Hunter links. It should be:

The House Carpenter as sung by Mr. William Edens, Mont Ne, Arkansas on August 17, 1960


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Subject: RE: Origin: House Carpenter
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:10 AM

You're new here, Sue, and won't know that Bruce died some years ago; this is an old thread, revived this time by some spammer. [spam deleted]

Bruce's website disappeared from its original location shortly after his death. It is archived both at the Mudcat and at California State University, however:

http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/Olson/
http://www.mudcat.org/olson/viewpage.cfm

Not an easy read for the beginner, but an absolutely invaluable resource to anyone who is genuinely interested in the history of what we now call folk song.


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Subject: RE: Origin: House Carpenter
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:27 PM

This brings up a point I have thought about a few times since the phenomenon started.   Spammers' somewhat random attacks have managed to bring to the front many interesting threads, threads I missed the first time around. Frequently, these spammed threads create more interest than they did the first time around.(or second or third . . .)

Perhaps we need an "intelligent spammer", someone who digs into our past and resurrects random threads that require more attention!

Come to think of it though, without mentioning names, we do have several dedicated Mudcatters who do that very thing, adding something of value to a thread long dead, or at least buried in the archives.

That's part of the beauty here, the ability to continue a conversation intermittently through the years.


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Subject: RE: Origin: House Carpenter
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:00 PM

GUEST DWR

The same thought had struck me. A simple solution might be for mods to replace the spam content with a "Random Refresh!" message.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origin: House Carpenter
From: masha
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM

Art wrote:
"Wilmette, Wilmette, Wilmette", he cried,
"Wilmette, Wilmette", cried he,...

OMG, I will NEVER be able to sing this song again without thinking of this. Thanks a LOT, Art. Oh, dear.

- masha


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