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NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'

GUEST 05 Sep 00 - 06:33 PM
guinnesschik 05 Sep 00 - 06:41 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 00 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Ickle Dorritt 05 Sep 00 - 07:02 PM
Midchuck 05 Sep 00 - 07:02 PM
DougR 05 Sep 00 - 07:13 PM
Bud Savoie 05 Sep 00 - 07:23 PM
Naemanson 05 Sep 00 - 07:25 PM
Jim Dixon 05 Sep 00 - 07:59 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 00 - 08:21 PM
kendall 05 Sep 00 - 08:26 PM
Mooh 05 Sep 00 - 08:29 PM
Liz the Squeak 05 Sep 00 - 08:38 PM
SINSULL 05 Sep 00 - 08:43 PM
GUEST, Banjo Johnny 05 Sep 00 - 09:01 PM
Naemanson 05 Sep 00 - 09:03 PM
Mbo 05 Sep 00 - 09:19 PM
GUEST,DocJohn 05 Sep 00 - 09:27 PM
Giac 05 Sep 00 - 09:35 PM
Jimmy C 05 Sep 00 - 09:45 PM
Mary in Kentucky 05 Sep 00 - 09:45 PM
Rick Fielding 05 Sep 00 - 10:42 PM
JamesJim 05 Sep 00 - 11:01 PM
Marcus Campus Bellorum 05 Sep 00 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,Jim Dixon 06 Sep 00 - 12:00 AM
Bev and Jerry 06 Sep 00 - 12:03 AM
GUEST,Instant Karma? 06 Sep 00 - 12:16 AM
Gypsy 06 Sep 00 - 12:18 AM
Amergin 06 Sep 00 - 05:48 AM
sledge 06 Sep 00 - 06:13 AM
Bagpuss 06 Sep 00 - 06:40 AM
GUEST 06 Sep 00 - 07:15 AM
JedMarum 06 Sep 00 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,alanabit 06 Sep 00 - 09:23 AM
SINSULL 06 Sep 00 - 09:29 AM
LR Mole 06 Sep 00 - 09:41 AM
Liz the Squeak 06 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM
Jim the Bart 06 Sep 00 - 02:13 PM
Catrin 06 Sep 00 - 03:22 PM
Bagpuss 06 Sep 00 - 04:12 PM
SINSULL 06 Sep 00 - 04:23 PM
DougR 06 Sep 00 - 08:53 PM
Helen 06 Sep 00 - 10:58 PM
Mbo 06 Sep 00 - 11:06 PM
GUEST 06 Sep 00 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,Jim Dixon 07 Sep 00 - 12:18 AM
Bev and Jerry 07 Sep 00 - 01:00 AM
DougR 07 Sep 00 - 01:23 AM
Barbara 07 Sep 00 - 01:29 AM
GUEST,Hoot & Fidget 07 Sep 00 - 02:39 AM
SINSULL 07 Sep 00 - 09:15 AM
GUEST, Banjo Johnny 07 Sep 00 - 04:21 PM
Liz the Squeak 07 Sep 00 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,Hoot & Fidget 07 Sep 00 - 08:43 PM
Helen 07 Sep 00 - 08:49 PM
Lena 07 Sep 00 - 08:56 PM
Mbo 07 Sep 00 - 09:04 PM
Lena 07 Sep 00 - 09:19 PM
sophocleese 07 Sep 00 - 09:40 PM
DougR 08 Sep 00 - 12:19 AM
Bev and Jerry 08 Sep 00 - 12:39 AM
Helen 08 Sep 00 - 05:59 PM
SINSULL 08 Sep 00 - 06:47 PM
Lena 08 Sep 00 - 08:21 PM
Barbara 08 Sep 00 - 09:20 PM
JamesJim 08 Sep 00 - 10:37 PM
Liz the Squeak 09 Sep 00 - 05:52 AM
Helen 12 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM
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Subject: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 06:33 PM

It looks like I'm going to be fired tomorrow . the first time ever . and now I will have a blemish on my career. I've put my whole life into my career and now this.

Last week I made a mistake, while trying to carry the load of a person who quit, and not knowing there was a specific procedure for a task I was asked to do. My boss confronted me with it this afternoon and I explained what occurred. He became very angry and irrational and I walked out of his office, when he raised his hand at me. He ended up slamming it down on his desk. Then I received a call, from another staff member, whom he had asked to call me to bring my laptop into the office tomorrow morning, for a reason I know isn't true.

On one hand, I'm rather relieved, because he has, on several occasions treated me in an inappropriate manner. He has a vile temper and I am the one in the office who feels the brunt of it. I've thought for some time that he does that because he is afraid anyone else would walk out, and I wouldn't. Whatever his reasons, it is inappropriate behavior. I told him at one point that I'm afraid of him and he didn't bat an eye.

Unfortunately, relief is fleeting because now I don't know what I'm going to do financially. I plan to relocate to another area, and now is probably a good time to do so, but I wanted to wait until next spring. Where I'm planning to move has a 1% unemployment rate, so they are literally crying for good people, but now I'm probably unemployable. I could put my household stuff in a storage unit, which I already have, and possibly go ahead and move, but it won't be long before I'm totally financially strapped. I also don't know if I will be able to find employment, because whosomever will call references, and they will be negative.

A 30-year-career has been destroyed in one fell swoop.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: guinnesschik
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 06:41 PM

Don't know if it's any consolation, but I wish you the best, and hope all turns out well.

Blessings....


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 06:52 PM

That sounds really rough. What would happen if you quit before you were fired? Is that the only employer that you can get references from? Do you have any records of good evaluation reports from the past?

Maybe if you can demonstrate a good track record for the past 30 years, a prospective employer might overlook this new development.

Good luck, and best wishes.

Carol


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:02 PM

If you have a thirty year career it would be a sad prospective employer who dismissed all that experience because of one incident. the important thing is not to let this experience damage your confidence. If they call for references ask them to contact other previous employers as well. Be positive and honest in your interviews and I am sure you will do well


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:02 PM

Consult competent local counsel. His "raising his hand at me" could be your retirement plan. Probably not, but don't go without at least checking it out.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: DougR
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:13 PM

Guest: Don't write off your future because of this one incident, even if it results in your being fired. From what you write, it sounds to me as though he may have done you a favor. The job does not seems to be ideal for you anyway if you are frightend of your boss.

Any prospective employer worth his/her salt, is going to take into account your thirty year record, not just this one incident.

I would advise you to be upfront with those who interview you. Tell them that your last employer was a tyrant and that you do not expect that you will receive a good recommendation from him. If you have multiple years of employment with that company the intervewer surely will take that into account when considering your present employer's comments. After all, if you served the company for a considerable period of time and your employer was so dissatisfied with your work, why did he keep you around so long?

View this as an opportunity to open a new world for yourself. If you are in the U.S., work opportunities are abundant in most parts of the country. Go at it, and be positive.

I wish you the very best.

DougR


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:23 PM

Getting fired is not at all uncommon and will not end your career. It might not even damage it. Employers today know that people get fired for personal reasons much of the time. Getting fired for a mistake doesn't make you unemployable. Getting fired for stealing will make getting a desireable new job tough, but even then, not out of the question.

Approach your prospective new employers with confidence and realize that you are bringing them something new and useful, not damaged goods.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Naemanson
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:25 PM

I once worked for a boss who ran the office by temper tantrum. I learned everything I know about how NOT to run an office from her.

We decided she was overwhelmed by her job and the responsibilities she was forced to assume. As a result she was frightened and insecure and overcompensated by taking it out on us.

None of this helps you directly, Guest, except that you should look at this as not being a reflection on anything you have done. You could be, unfairly of course, just taking the brunt of his anger and frustration.

I am curious, though, are you female? Is this a case of male domination that you refuse to put up with? That could set off a negative behavior pattern too.

Either way, you are better off not working for him. When you interview for your new job point out your 30 year record and, if asked, explain the possible reasons why your boss was difficult to work with.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 07:59 PM

Guest, you didn't say whether you're in the US, but if you are, I recommend you apply for Unemployment Compensation right away. Don't assume that just because you're being fired "for cause", that you're not entitled to it. Also, don't resign. If you quit, you won't be entitled to UC. If they ask you to resign, or try to talk you into resigning, it's probably because they know you WOULD be entitled to UC if they fire you, and they're hoping to avoid that. Go ahead and let them fire you.

Also, don't assume that being fired means you are unemployable. Most people don't talk about it, but a lot of people have been fired from a job at one time or another, and it doesn't necessarily hurt their careers.

Check around in your area to see if there are any social service agencies that serve the unemployed, and find out what they have to offer. If they have support groups, get into one. Once you start swapping stories with others in a similar situation, you will realize you are not alone, and that in itself is worth a fortune.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:21 PM

I am a woman and I live in the US. I am his personal administrative assistant. When he informed me that my job was to do the office dishes left int he sink, clean the office toilets if someone made a mess, clean the refrigerator of someone else's rotten food and wash the dishes where this food was left, I told him that everyone should be responsible for their own dishes, etc. It was a short conversation and I've not said anything since and I've done the dishes.

Lest you think I am a doormat, I am not, but I have been afraid of this individual for some time. Until recently, it was never in my nature to allow someone treat me this way. He is fully aware of my fear and the power he holds over me, as far as my career goes. Some people, both men and women, become "heady" with this kind of power. I am also single and he knew there was no one for me to turn to if I quit my job.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:26 PM

This is where a good union would step on that roach.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Mooh
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:29 PM

A 30 year career is a huge achievement in and of itself. One firing which says lots of negative things about your former boss and place of work, might actually speak to your higher moral and ethical sense. You are not the first or last employee to be fired for taking the higher ground. Decent employers will look at your whole record and know that your qualities (which might have played a part in the firing) are the same qualities they need in their employees.

Someday I hope you can wear this episode as a badge of honour.

By your description, I don't see just cause for your dismissal, but I do see a great opportunity (excuse, if you like) to move on. Have faith in yourself, and confidence in your abilities. Remember that to focus on what's next heightens your ability to promote yourself.

And, good luck. Let us know how it works out.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:38 PM

Guest, bite that bullet and sue the bastard for bullying. That's what he has been doing to you for the past few years, make sure you have a good union rep who is not afraid of confruntation. Even if you don't win anything, at least you will have dragged his bullying and violent ways into the light, and others might be willing to stand with you.

I was sacked last year, basically for having an illness that was chronic enough to mean a lot of time off, but not chronic enough to be registered disabled. When I went, I went kicking and screaming. I subsequently lost my appeals on techinicalities, but my former manager underwent a humiliating experience that has taught her never to assume that power or position is unassailable. She got hauled over the coals for misuse of position, and mistakes she'd made, I got employed in a much better job. Don't go without a fight.

LTS


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:43 PM

Guest,
It's a scary business but a year from now you will know that this is the best thing that could have happened. I have been through it. Private Message me. I have some ideas to help you get back on track.
For now, take a deep breath, sign up IMMEDIATELY for unemployment, make sure that if you are fired tomorrow you leave with a check representing your severance pay and any vacation or overtime due you. Don't sign anything. Get all the information you need re: COBRA, continuing Life Insurance, explanation of 401K payouts, etc. Relax. You can now enjoy a well earned vacation.
Unemployment allows a certain amount of temp work without cancelling your benefits. If money gets tight use it. Take stock of your credit cards and available lines of credit mainly for peace of mind. It helps to know that the rent can be paid for the next six months.
You haven't thrown away a 30 year career. Every minute of it will count towards your next job. I, who did not know how to turn on a computer, landed a position selling sophisticated networking equipment. A year later , I see myself retiring early. There is a silver lining to your cloud.
Look in the mirror. You are the same capable, experienced worker you were three days ago. And there has never been a better time to be job hunting. Employers are desperate for good people.
It will be OK.
Mary


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:01 PM

Have you considered going to your boss' superior to explain what has been going on? == Johnny


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Naemanson
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:03 PM

Everything Sinsull says is right but she missed a most important point. Once you've got all of that unemployment stuff sorted out and you will be in that time between jobs when you have plenty of time for music! I assume you have the interest, since you are here with the rest of us, so now you can play albeit within a very limited budget. But then, isn't that what folkies do? Play within a very limited budget?


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:19 PM

Reminds me of Crow from MST3K. In one episode, he made himself a "What Would Buffy St.Marie Do?" bracelet. So whenever he was in a time of confusion, he'd say "What would Buffy do? I know! I'll write a folk song!" Love that Crow! Round the lips!


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST,DocJohn
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:27 PM

it's not the end of the world. It's the beginning of a new life. It will be tough at times. But it will be better.

Uusally, when one calls for references, now days the only question that can be answered without opening yourself up for suit is "is this person eligible for rehire.?" That is the only question which can be answered. And by and large the answer is "no" because most employers have a "no rehire" policy. I know I do.

The mostimportant thing for you todo, when you are interviewing and after you begin your new job: DO NOT MENTION THE RAT. Do not talk about, refer to or comp,ain about your former employer. Find a way to leave that emotional baggage behind and do not mention him to friends, relatives or new work mates. It will reflect very poorly on you and make people wonder about you. Turn around and walk away with your dignity and your pride. You WILL land on your feet and you WILL be happier for it.

I've quit jobs suddenly, I've been fired and I've fired people. None of those events ever had the smallest negative impact on me. I always grew from the experience.

good luck

John


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Giac
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:35 PM

I echo those who said to file for unemployment compensation immediately. Even if your employer fights your claim, the board who reviews your case is on your side, not that of the employer. You are entitled to the compensation, because the firm has been paying the premiums on your behalf, or they are supposed to, by law. Let them know you were afraid of the ****k.

Good luck to you. Let us know how you fare.

Giac


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Jimmy C
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:45 PM

I agree with LTS, go sfter the prick. One thing is sure - a door never closes unless another one opens. A 30 year employment record is the only reference you will need when you go job hunting. I was forced into early reitrment after 29 years of faithful service, looking back it was the best thing that ever happened to me, just suck it in and keep on going. Very soon you will look back and laugh at this occurance. I wish you the best of luck in the future.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:45 PM

GUEST, I've been there (downsized twice in the same year) and know something of what you're feeling. Please believe me when I say that in this day and time, to be fired or downsized is not necessarily held against you! There are just too many others in the same position. Quite possibly the person who interviews you will have had similar experiences.

However, if you had a 30-year career, I'm assuming you are over 40 (or 50) years old. That could be your worst liability. It shouldn't be that way...but too often is. The fact that you have marketable skills and can relocate are tremendous assets. There are wonderful outplacement counseling centers located in every city. I would suggest you do whatever you can to connect with one, the sooner, the better. There are also college alumnae (sp?) centers that would be a good first step if you're totally lost about what to do next.

Remember to ASK FOR WHAT YOU NEED.

I've counseled many friends in similar circumstances. Feel free to PM me for further info.

Mary


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 10:42 PM

You have brains.

You have friends.

You must have music, or you wouldn't be here.

Now you have some choices that you didn't have a week ago.

You may not feel it right now, but brains, friends, music and choices are a powerful combination. Keep us posted, and know that there are some good folks here in your corner.

Rick


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: JamesJim
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:01 PM

One incident? And, it happened when you were trying to help by picking up a former employee's duties (to help the Company)? Come on! This is hard to believe, I don't care how tough the guy is.

If there are other incidents (you have alluded to one), they are probably documented in performance reviews/appraisals. On the other hand, if you have gotten good reviews over the years, you may very well have a case against the Company. Don't be afraid to see an attorney. In any case, you should contact the EEOC and discuss the problem.

One last, but very important thought. You are assuming this guy is going to fire you because he asked someone else to ask you to bring in your laptop. Could there be other reasons for bringing in the LT? You may very well think you are getting fired, but nothing is certain until it happens.

Best of luck. If you truly are asked to hit the door, another one will open for you. Treat it as an adventure. What would you like to do with the rest of your life? Something exciting, I hope.

Jim


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Marcus Campus Bellorum
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 11:28 PM

This is such a common problem.

Job security and justice are incredibly low (ie; it is not the individual but the larger society and structure).

How low can things go. How powerless can employees become before we make a stand?

How far have we, as a society, come when people are continually at risk of unemployment. Such anguish and uncertainty are incredibly unhealthy.

People are more than units of labour.

Its enough to make you a communist.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:00 AM

Every good manager knows that bad managers exist, and one of the things bad managers sometimes do is fire people unfairly, or unwisely, and then lie about it. No prospective employer worth his salt will unquestioningly accept a bad report at face value, especially when there are good reports that contradict it.

Start thinking now about people who might give you a good recommendation. Your boss isn't the only one who knows what kind of work you do. Consider coworkers, managers of other departments, former employees (especially those who know what an asshole your boss is), managers of other companies you do business with, people in similar positions in similar companies, and especially, your company's clients or customers. (In fact, it would be a real coup to get a job with your current employer's biggest customer. Then your boss would have to kiss YOUR ass for a change.)

If another good job doesn't materialize right away, do consider taking a temporary or part-time job, even one outside your field, even if it pays much less than what you're making now. Just having something to do, especially if it's something you KNOW you can do well, will do wonders for your self-esteem. Also, you needn't worry about losing your unemployment benefits. You are considered unemployed as long as you are earning less than you did before, and as long as you continue to look for a better job. Your earnings will be deducted from your benefit check, but your eligibility will last longer by the same amount.

And if a miracle should happen -- if you don't get fired after all -- I hope you start immediately looking for another job anyway. Life is too short to let yourself be bullied by assholes.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:03 AM

Every time Jerry has lost his job, it has seemed very traumatic at the time. But, in every case, it has resulted in a better job.

Case in point. When Jerry was past 40 (an old person in his field), his job was eliminated by company politics. In fact, it was the result of a long time conspiracy by a few individuals. He is not paranoid - this is in fact what happened. For the first time in his life he found it difficult to find another job but, eventually found another position within the company (organizationally far from the conspirators). Within a year it became obvious that this position also had no future and unemployment was a definite possibility. We made a decision at this time to become full time folk musicians! At the end of 1986 Jerry quit his job and we have been self employed ever since. This is the first time we have acually had job security because we can earn as much as we want by simply working harder and there is no boss to answer to - just each other.

Bev and Jery


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST,Instant Karma?
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:16 AM

My boss called me late on evening 2 1/2 yrs. ago to tell me I was fired. A bully who loved to torment his employees. He hung up and had a heart attack and died. The owner of the company rang me the next morning and asked if I would be willing to step into the top position in our branch. I'm still here and trying my best to be a fair, compassionate and patient boss. I think my employees really do like me, -- no, they love me, and I love them. Hang in there guest, God really does move in wonderous ways. There is probably a wonderful new job with a super nice boss just waiting for you. Keep the faith and pray, -- let go and let God.

Best of luck to you.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Gypsy
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:18 AM

hey...been there. There are petty tyrants in the world, and i had the misfortune to be employed by one. Note the past tense. Fortunately, i was able to quit before being fired. I believe the word i used was "retire", so i could leave with no hard feelings. (small town, don't burn bridges) When my husband found out that i was throwing up each morning before going to work, said that it was time to move on. Regardless of what happens tomorrow, DO believe in yourself. It may sound unrealistic now, but within 6 months you'll wonder why you ever worked so hard, for so little. Feel free to PM for further dialogue.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 05:48 AM

I don't have much to add, except keep your chin up, Guest, for things are bound to get better...


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: sledge
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 06:13 AM

I worked for a manager who was firmly in the Bully school of doing things and I loathed working for him, he didn't like me. I did stand up to him and gave him no good reason to get rid of me. I ended up still being there when the entire project folded, mainly through his doing. I then walked into another job. I found out that several months later HE was still looking for a new post.

Be strong, and if the dickhead does fire you on such meagre grounds drag him into the courtroom, it won't look good on HIS appraisal.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 06:40 AM

I have never been sacked (yet), but I have been off work, sick for quite a long time. Now that I am well enough to go back (and my doctor says it would be better for my health to go back), I get the very strong feeling that they would rather I didn't. They seem to be delaying my return at every opportunity. I don't know if I am being paranoid, but that is how it feels to me.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 07:15 AM

I'd agree with DocJohn, it may be wiser not to mention the whole thing when applying for a job. It could, unfairly but understandably, raise questions in their minds. Also, I think it is better to put things behind you rather than persuing the matter - how important do you want it to be in your life? Personally, I prefer to let unpleasant incidents fade away - dwelling on it might make you unhappy. That's just my opinion though, and I would point out that we are all working on very little information here and so can't really guarantee a balanced or accurate view. Best of luck in your next job - in which I am sure you will soon be safely ensconsed.

Kris


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 08:21 AM

Sounds like you've been working for a real as*hole (or as my governor would put it, "a major league as*hole"). I hope you can feel like you're better off without him, and that bad situation.

I also hope you seek good legal advice, no matter what. Even if you have doubts about your own culpability in this issue, the way you respond to his bullyng will make all the difference to the way he will treat you in a termintaion agreement.

I would suggest consulting a lawyer even he doesn;t fire you. I am not encouraging a law suit here, just suggesting you might be better prepared to cope with this bad situation if you had a clearer understanding of what the legal issues are.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST,alanabit
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:23 AM

If this guy really does get his kicks by frightening people, he's a complete jerk. There is no need to allow his words or actions to affect your self esteem one bit.If he is foolish enough to fire you it is more likely to harm him in the long run than it is you. He can't wipe thirty years of good work off your slate and his opinions are worthless. I agree with practically every word written on this thread. Good luck.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:29 AM

Follow up note. When I was fired, the man who fired me tried to get me to sign a document saying I would not sue for age or sex discrimination. When I refused, I was offered additional severance pay ($4500) to sign. I still refused out of pure pigheadedness even though I needed the money. They were stuck and he could not hire the friend he had wanted to fill my position - a very young male. And he was fired himself a few months later for mishandling the sales force. And the wheel goes round...

Re: age. I was hired by my current firm because I had many years of sales experience AND the company owner wanted a mix of ages,races, and religions. He was looking for a middle aged woman. The job market is tight for employers right now. The rock music industry is not going to be interested in you but many firms will be. At 50 I had several offers before I chose a position.
Mary


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: LR Mole
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:41 AM

You're not alone. Hold on, and ride it out.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

Ooo Bagpuss, sounds like you're being squeezed out on sickness grounds. When my manager started saying things like - 'take your time, make sure you are really well again before coming in', alarm bells started and I got the hell back in there before I got the 'retirement' package. Can you arrange to go back part time? Whatever you do, don't let them squeeze you out on 'retirement' or 'sickness' if you can really help it. Of course, if you have a nice pension waiting, go for it. Beware though, my colleague was deliberately pushed just one month before her early retirement date came up, and in between the date of her severance and the date of her appeal, the council rushed through a change that meant no early retirement on grounds of ill health, it was hang in there or get pushed.

I hope sincerely that our Guest is still employed, and if she isn't, I hope you dragged the git screaming and kicking with you!!

LTS


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 02:13 PM

Last October I left the company that I was with for fifteen years. The newly hired VP of Training & Development felt that my job should be eliminated - with me still in it. It came as a surprise, but ended a long period of time during which I had become more and more dissatisfied with my employer. With three boys, two mortgages, and only one major employer on my resume I felt trapped. What I had always feared - getting sacked - turned out to be the best thing that could have happened to me.

I now have a comparable job with a much better company. I have learned that you don't have to be miserable in a bad job - there are better ones out there. As trite as it seems, you have to see this as an opportunity. What other choice do you have? Make a list of all of the things you want in a job, in an employer, in the area in which you will live, in your life. Assign a value to each of these. When you interview (as you will - it's a good market) make sure you keep this list of what's important at the top of your mind. Remember: You aren't really looking for just any job - you are deciding what you want to do for the next part of your life.

Feel free to PM me, too, if you aren't sure where to start; my company set me up with an outplacement company to ease the transition and I'll be glad to share information with you.

Good luck. Stay on the bright side of the road.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Catrin
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 03:22 PM

Guest, you are not alone in this - I know it won't feel like it at the moment but sometimes unexpected doors can open from such times. I've been in godawful situation at work too, different to yours but I don't really feel like posting details at the moment. I've been applying for jobs and yesterday I got an offer of an interview for one I really really want - It doesn't feel as bad now as it did a few weeks ago.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you don't have the sack but whatever happens, things will get better.

Good luck with everything.

Catrin


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 04:12 PM

Liz - At 27, I certainly don't have a big pension waiting for me. I think I could kick up a big fuss if they tried to get me out on mental health grounds - my big boss is the National Director for Mental Health.

I've been trying to get back on a part time basis to begin with, but they are still stalling at every turn.

I've been thinking of phoning my supervisor about it, and letting her know how I'm feeling about it. Wish me luck...

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 04:23 PM

Bagpuss,
My brother was fired when struck with a serious case of depression. The owner's wife was on the Board of Director's of the company and the local Mental Health Organization. There was no compassion. But the wheel keeps turning and what goes around comes around. He is well and working at a better job. They live with their decision. I don't wish anyone ill, nor does my brother. We have been around too long not to know that they must offset the wrong done and he will earn equal negative points if he wastes time on anger or revenge.

Bart is right. Roll with it. When it's over, Guest will have a better job and the confidence of knowing she can change jobs at will.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: DougR
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 08:53 PM

Guest: Your posting received many sympathetic and also encouraging replies. I hope you will keep us posted about what happens. For example, why were you asked to bring in your laptop today?

DougR


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Helen
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 10:58 PM

Hi Guest,

In June this year I finished working for a bully because I challenged him on his behaviour and reported him to the Union & HR Manager and then in the mediation session they arranged for us he did the dirty on me and managed to get me to agree to working on a short term project and leaving at the end of June. I was temporary anyway from year to year, but if I hadn't agreed to that I could possibly still be there.

I discovered some really good websites on bullying which helped me a lot to understand the whole problem and to make myself feel a lot better about myself as a victim of bullying.

Tim Field's site is very good, comprehensive, with lots of links to other good sites.


Bully OnLine: Tim Field shares his unique insight into workplace bullying, a cause of stress and ill health and the basis of harassment, discrimination, abuse and violence

http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/

I even like what he calls his site - Success Unlimited - because that's how I am starting to feel now. Within three days of leaving the job I had two part time classes to teach, an offer of a longer term training course to run, with prospects of further employment, and an offer for a short term project. I did what Bartholomew said. I listed everything I wanted in my life and my work, and I set them as goals for myself and used them in marketing myself for jobs etc. If I had still been there suffering I wold not have found these other work prospects.

Even if you don't/didn't get fired you probably still need to investigate the information on bullying. Once you understand the nature of bullies and bullying you will start to see a way out of your dilemma. Especially read Tim Field's assessment of how victims are chosen. It will do wonders for your self esteem, believe me. You were chosen because you are good at what you do.

Someone in this thread said don't talk to prospective employers about the bully, especially in the interview stage. I agree with that - use positive spins on the reasons for wanting a new job rather than negatives, desperation, name-calling etc

BUT - find someone to talk to about how you are feeling, someone who cares about you and your well being. A friend, a counsellor, a minister of religion, whoever you can trust to hear what you are saying in the right spirit. Most victims of bullying are extremely isolated and very few people understand how it really feels to be trapped in that situation.

Please PM me if you want to talk about it.

Look after yourself, you are valuable, and worth looking after. Don't let the b*****d grind you down

Helen


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Mbo
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 11:06 PM

Helen, where have I heard that recently? Don't let the b*stards wear you down. That's gonna drive me nuts now...


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 11:32 PM

I didn't get fired this morning. I also didn't bring up about his raising his hand to me. Not because I think it was "okay" or afraid to stand up to him, but because I want to leave, when I'm ready and on my terms, not at the whim of a tyrant. I've worked too hard for this company to throw it all down the drain. I deserve a AAA recommendation. It will be much easier for me to transfer with this company than to make a big move and be looking for a job. I'm taking my mother's advice "don't cut off your nose to spite your face." Pointing out the inappropriateness of his behaviour, yesterday, would be a small victory and I shooting for the big victory.

JamesJim: Yes, there have been other incidents with his temper. No, there are no pieces of paper in my personnel file. He outwardly displays his disdain of strong women.

Doug: I have both a desktop and laptop computer. I keep the laptop at home, for security reasons. I am also privvy to anything happening in the office, and especially if it involves computers. Given that history, I figured he wanted to make certain my laptop was in the office, before he fired me.

Sinsull: Thank you. You understand more than most.

To the rest: Thank you all for your kind words and advice and suggestions and links to websites. I am going to print all your posts so I have your words with me, when the next time occurs, and it surely will.

It never ceases to amaze me, this community of people we call "mudcat." Nowadays, I post only as "guest" but I read about your adventures and your "pearls" and I miss you very much.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 12:18 AM

Here's a link to the ACLU page on Workplace Rights. I especially recommend their handbook, The Rights of Employees and Union Members, which, among other things, explains Unemployment Compensation.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 01:00 AM

Guest:

One more thing. Now that you have not been fired and have the luxury of looking for a new job at a relaxed pace, buy yourself a copy of "What Color is Your Parachute" by - what the hell is his name? Do all of the exercises in the back. It may take you up to 40 hours to complete. Take no shortcuts. When you finish, you'll be a new person and you'll have a very clear picture of the job you want to have. It just might surprise you. It will definitely change your behavior during interviews.

Jerry did all this and then knew exactly what he wanted. A company set up an appointment for him to meet with the president to tell the president what they could offer him to get him to work for them. He cancelled the meeting because he could not think of an answer! This company simply could not create a job which he wanted.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 01:23 AM

Guest: I'm glad that the axe didn't "fall" today. By your sharing your situation with your friends on the Mudcat you must sense, however, that it's only a matter of time. Use that time effectively. Offer your talents to a company where you will be more appreciated.

I think you have found a great deal of empathy on this site, and I'm confident that all of us wish you the best. But get out of where you are! Otherwise, you are just continually going to be used as a doormat.

DougR


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Barbara
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 01:29 AM

Bowles, B&J. Somebody, Rick? maybe. Don't suppose you could post the words to the "Secretary's Song" and turn this into a music thread, could you?
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST,Hoot & Fidget
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 02:39 AM

I'm first generation American. My favorite aunt used to say, "The time to start looking for a new job is the day after you got your current one." Usually I wait a week, but you better believe I have a resume out there all the time. It does wonders for my sense of security and I have some clear boundaries that I'm not afraid to maintain. (I'm 49 and male.)

I don't ever use my current boss as a reference. There's lots of customers and co-workers and past supervisors on my list. I'll bet there's a few colleagues you can call on.

As for being un-employable because you were fired, I used to work with a programmer who did time in the state penitentary for safe-cracking (And no he wasn't lying. I know something about cutting metal and he answered questions no normal, citizen would know.) The company knew it, his past employers knew it and I'll bet dollars to Navy beans his future employer knew it. He was and is a programmer and not one of the super-rare-bleeding-edge-$120/hour types either. It taught me a lesson: A confident "air" coupled with just the right amount of "attitude" can truly do wonders. Trust me; 30 years out of the job market has left you frozen in time about the reality of what an employer is likely to find acceptable.

30 years in one job and looking for a new one is VERY scary. People say, "Keep your head up!" and "Keep looking forward." That's what they said to me and I never knew how to implement it. Christianity didn't cut it. "Let go and let God." was one I heard a lot and I didn't know how. I know how to do all that now. I suggest you check around for Vipasana meditation (a.k.a. "mindfulness meditation") which is where I learned the "how" and my Christianity is still intact. If I'd known this 5 years earlier it'd saved me a nervous breakdown.

Last: There will be a future & you will be in it. It's a VERY big world out there and you can choose to ruminate on the past to the exclusion of the future. I used to do that and I don't anymore. Do not rule out the possibility of psychotropic medication. It saved me years of suffering and torment.

My best, my prayers and all the luck you can stand. *G*


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:15 AM

Kate Wendleton's "Through the Brick Wall" and a local chapter of "The Five O'Clock Club" are other recommendations.
And your aunt is right. Your resume should always be up to date and you should always be looking at possibilities. Your first loyalty has to be to yourself.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 04:21 PM

Guest: concentrate now on setting up your retirement. You will enjoy it!

Mbo: It's the Pseudo-Latin phrase, ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM -- don't let the bastards grind you down.

== Johnny in OKC


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 06:21 PM

And it was in a thread here not long ago, it's been bugging me all day too!!!

LTS


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: GUEST,Hoot & Fidget
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 08:43 PM

$%#@!!!! The whole floggin' thing wasn't supposed to be italicized. That'll learn me not to post anything using HTML without testing it first.

...sigh... *G*


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Helen
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 08:49 PM

Please, Guest, go to the bullying website soon, rather than waiting for your boss to do the next crazy thing. There are things on that site which can help you now, straight away - even about choosing not to stand up to him about raising his hand to you.

A really useful thing to start doing is to keep a diary - it doesn't have to be complicated or long - to record dates, times, events and words on what your boss is doing to you. Every little bit of information recorded in that diary will help you to see exactly what he is up to and it will also help you to stand your ground. If you can say "On this day at this time you said (or did) this" then your boss will start to get a bit worried because he will know he is under scrutiny and he will start to realise that you are not going to take this kind of treatment.

It will also help if, at any stage, you do decide to take a stand against him through legal or other action. Without the diary you will have trouble proving anything. With the diary you will have a long-term picture of his behaviour. It counts as evidence in a court.

My boss said to me in the mediation session, with a terribly hurt, little boy look, "I don't understand why you took this to the Union" and I said "Because I decided I was not going to take it any more". Even though I lost and he won, that little moment was a victory for me. I had dates, times, places, events, conversations, witnesses etc all written down, so that my side of the story in the mediation session was probably very scary to him. He is a bully because he is not confident of his competence as a manager and decision maker. He picks on strong, competent women, like me.

Helen

Helen


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Lena
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 08:56 PM

Fired yesterday.I got to get my wage and my boss told me:by the way,today was your last day here.You know,with the Olimpics we have to reduce our staff...
I was so shocked that I couldn't get angry and scream at him and tell him the total asshole he is,the fact that I've not been able to organize myself and find another position just because he'd been shitting his pants off to warn me before.So there we go.He may have saved money,but I don't know if i'll have anything to eat in the next days,for he didn't even give me enough to pay my rent today.It's a long,long story,repeating itself for the hundreth time in the last months.The problem of being young,foreign,female and not likely to bent to the system.Probably if I stopped painting and sold off my creativity to some web-design agency.Probably if...whatever,that's why I have a bitter grin when someone tells me how smart or cultivated i am : the truth is that I'm not even worth a crappy manual job to pay the bills.I'm not even worth caring enough,as a person,to not send me off the street and leave me in the shit.And thank god I wanted to save money to go to UNI...so,as an anthropologist,I'll be shown that I'm not worth blah blah. I sat there at home wondering what's wrong with me,Why does everybody condider me less than his house pet,why everybody finds a safe job and I don't,and so on.I sat there and sang "Honest Work."at least I was able to fully appreciate that song.And I went on the beach to have a swim,and it started raining.and I tought,well,fuck the rain,I don't care-and it started storming.and all the sky went dark...worst than some Peggy Lee song

I just hope i'll sort myself out before my birthday.a Depressed Peg is terrible,but an Unemployed,Starved Depressed Peg is umbearable.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:04 PM

Oh, fanciulla, I'm so sorry to hear that. It sounds like someone has the Evil Eye out on you with a vengeance. I hope & pray that something good turns up for you very soon. You'll be in my thoughts.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Lena
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:19 PM

At the moment,the Rain seller is on me.But it's not his fault.He sells rainto get the money to come back to his desert.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: sophocleese
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:40 PM

Lena, click here for something to help cheer you up. Remember your former boss is stupid man who was brought up wrong. You are an intelligent, brave young woman. Conquer the world! (or most of it, just leave some of the nicer bits for me please.)


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: DougR
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:19 AM

Lena: Sorry your AH boss treated you that way. I know it's difficult to do (because I've been there myself) but you HAVE to adopt a positive attitude! You got the job you had, go out and find another! I'm shocked that employers are not hiring more people because of the Olympics, not firing them!

Be brave, and don't let the bastards get you down!

DougR


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:39 AM

Yes, Barbara, that's it. Richard Bowles.

The secretaries song. Hmmm. Do you mean The Boss's Lament by Terry Dask?

THE BOSS'S LAMENT

I just don't know what to make of it just where it all will end
I haven't been so mortified since early 1910
I've heard of war and famine but things got really hard
When the ladies in my office got hold of union cards

chorus:
Whatever will we do whatever on this earth
When all the secretaries demand what they are worth (repeat)

Now my girl she runs the office, you know that's what girls do
She does her job, yes, fairly well and most of my job, too
But it's certainly outrageous it's completely out of line
When she demands a salary commensurate with mine

Now my secretary tallies up the things I have to do
She keeps a lists of all my friends so I'll know who is who
If she should ever leave me, oh how would I survive
I haven't made a phone call since 1965

Now there's rumors of a walkout and rumors of a strike
Rumors of a picket, work stoppage and the like
But I've got a survival plan in case of storm and strife
Here's how I'll get the job done - I'll give it to my wife

Now I've heard about enough of this, I just can't count to ten
Whoever do they think they are to organize like men
Now I believe in order, that tried and trusted norm
And I'll damn well see her fired - if I can find the form

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Helen
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 05:59 PM

Lena,

You are in Sydney aren't you? Can you register for unemployment? It takes a while to come through and it's a mere pittance but every little bit helps.

Come up to Newcastle for a bit. The rent and cost of living is a lot cheaper, we have lovely beaches, nice people. I've just done a study on backpacker accommodation and there are some really, really nice backpacker hostels which are cheap and close to the beach, right in the centre of town.

What sort of work have you been doing? Maybe I can help you to find some work or help you with your Resume/CV or something or even just help you to talk it all through and feel a bit better.

I'll PM you with my e-mail and phone number.

Cheer up - it's spring, the sun is going to shine, the birds are going to sing, and you are going to find some work which suits you, your talents and your needs perfectly and you are going to paint extraordinary pieces of artwork. (Oh yes, and the art scene up here is thriving too)

Helen


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 06:47 PM

Lena,
Bi-lingual has to be worth something especially with the Olympics. Try the hotels, restaurants, hospitals, banks, etc. anywhere where a second language could be critical. And smile. Rainy days are beautiful too. Or sing. It will help. How about sketches of some of the athletes? Quick and dirty and one step short of prostitution, I'm sure, but it will put money in your pocket.
Mary


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Lena
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 08:21 PM

Thanks for the support.I should print the all thing and stick it on my boss's door.I'll start reacting and worring about the thing after this week end,now I have something more important to think about:music!!! Helen,thanks for the Newcastle suggestion. But if I'm going to move out of Sydney,I'll have to do it seriously.And no,no bilingual facilities.
The boss'lament was great,great,great.


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Barbara
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 09:20 PM

Yeah, that was the one, Bev and Jerry. Tanks! Actually, I see it's already in DT, and that the first line of the last verse is "...can't comprehend"
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: JamesJim
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 10:37 PM

Guest- Sounds like a very wise decision to move on. If you are not appreciated, why should you continue to put yourself through hell? It's also wise to stay right within your Company, if you can. If your boss is the tyrant you say he is, the chances are good that many, many others within your organization know of his reputation. Concerning other potential positions within the Company, I'm sure you will quietly and diplomatically ask around. There will come a time when your current boss will learn about your actions. Never fear. Chances are good that he is even more fearful of you, than you of him. He has a boss too!

Lena- America fortunately has an "employee marketplace" right now (as do many other Countries). Learn from your experience and move on.

Best wishes to both of you!

Jim


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Sep 00 - 05:52 AM

Lena, what did you do? Were you not entitled to notice? In UK you have to have notice even if you are temporary. Casual labour is the only sort not to require notice, because they are called in as necessary. Surely you should have had some warning that he was laying people off. Check with your colleages and see if anyone else has been laid off. If not, you might have grounds for a fight, because he lied about the reason for letting you go. If you were 'on the books' then there are legal ways to make you redundant, because that is what happened. You weren't sacked over any offence were you?

Nil carborundum and all that, but go and speak to people, you may have something to fight.

LTS


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Subject: RE: NotMusic ... Thoughts On Being 'Fired'
From: Helen
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM

Lena,

Liz is right - if you weren't a casual then you have rights and there is minimum time to be notified before you either leave or stop getting paid. If you were a casual you have less rights about notification time. Are you a member of a Union? It's be worth talking to them about it if you are a member.

Are you checking the Jobsearch database every day? There are heaps of jobs in Sydney listed there.

Helen


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