 sj |
||
|
||
Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00
|
|
|
Subject: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Peter T. Date: 08 Sep 00 - 09:06 AM I have noticed that many of the Mudcatters I meet, like myself, are very shy. I used to see this in actors, so am used to it. I am similarly afflicted. I have wrestled with this all my life, and over time have come to see that there are many different variations and reasons for this. Not many shy people notice that other people may be shy for other reasons, because they are so busy themselves in self-protection. In my case, I was subject to threats of violence from an early age, and so have always treated other people warily. My default position for meeting others is their threat -- I have fought it always, but there it is. But I have listed some other reasons, some more powerful than others; some I have mild versions of, some not: 1) genuine introversion. I know a number of mathematicians who live in their heads. Their relation to the rest of the world is like a deer, shying away: they have no social skills at all, and don't really seem too concerned to develop them. 2) genuinely reticent. I use this in an archaic sense: good manners (maybe carried to an extreme). These are people for whom the boundaries of their selves and the boundaries of others are to be strongly respected. They are genuinely shy about encroaching on others, which can come across as diffidence. 3) informationally overloaded. For some people, the arrival of someone else is just too much information to handle. They can only cope with so much at once -- that is why they hate loud parties and busy streets. They will back themselves into a corner to focus. They are less shy one on one. Other people are more shy one on one. 4) Worried about their physical appearance. This varies. Some people just have a bad self image. Some people are not so much worried about their physical appearance as about the possibility of doing something stupid that will shame them. Other people just don't like being looked at at all. 5) Mysterious. Some people are just shy for reasons one cannot know, because of things from their childhood or memories or traumas. I don't think this kind of a list helps me much: but I do know that it is a daily struggle that lots of people know nothing about, and would be surprised at the grief it can cause. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: CarolC Date: 08 Sep 00 - 10:50 AM Hi Peter, Number 2 and number 3 Best wishes, Carol |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: sophocleese Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:02 AM Shyness can be very disabling, I've fought it and continue to fight it myself. I like your categories of shyness, they make sense to me. What I also find interesting is how shy or brave I can be at different times and when using various methods of communication. On the street, stage, Net and phone I'm different. Interesting to see which of your categories will be more prominent in each situation. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: SINSULL Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:11 AM Interesting Peter. I am a painfully shy and reticent person who chose sales as an occupation. Sometimes I feel as I am two people in one body. My own rationalization of it is that as a child my vision was very bad and the problem went undetected for years. I was always stumbling, clumsy, and pretending to be part of things when in fact I hadn't a clue what was going on. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Naemanson Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:13 AM It's interesting that we can be shy in our daily lives yet have the guts to sing in public. Someone in Mick's thread on Why We Sing mentioned how vulnerable we are when we perform. Yet we still do it. I wonder why? I personally have a tough time with parties and meeting new people. Yet, I run a coffeehouse where I greet new people and then get up on stage to act as MC and performer. I think it might be a need on my part to be in charge of the social encounter. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Lox Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:14 AM Very sharp observations indeed. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: sophocleese Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:20 AM Naemanson, I also have a lot of difficulty meeting new people at social gatherings but was quite friendly working in a book store. I always figured, similar to you, that it was having a specific role to play that made it easy. I have immense diffculty asking anybody for anything. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Sean Belt Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:45 AM As loathe as I am to appear all introspective and navel-gazing, this discussion has got me feeling like I have to speak out. I'd have to say that my extreme shyness, which runs to the point of being painful at times, results from reasons 2 and 5 listed above. I was in my mid-teens when I realized that performing music before a crowd was easier than meeting a new person and having a one on one conversation. After much thought, I decided it was the physical act of having a guitar between me and them that did the trick. I felt safer and could channel some of my concentration into what my hands were doing with the instrument, and direct it away from concern about what the audience thought about me. A natural outgrowth of this was my entry into acting. In that arena, I find I can keep the playwright's words between me and the audience. So, even though, I'm using my real emotions to convey the feeling, they're not really my words, so it's safe to say them. Fortunately, as I get older, and pay more attention to the lessons life teaches, I'm getting better at recognizing my own value as a person and am getting somewhat better about being shy. Both in terms of overcoming the most extreme aspects of it, as well as coming to terms with the fact that I just am a shy person and that's an okay thing to be. A deep breath and back to it... - Sean |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Peter T. Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:46 AM Thanks for the contributions, they illuminate even more. I think that having a role or assumed character really helps. I used to think it was because you could wear a mask, but I don't think that is really right. I think it is because it simplifies who you are for the moment -- you don't have to worry as much about the details. I think that there is a kind of personal information overload as well as an overload from other people that afflicts shy people -- you just get overwhelmed by all the things about you that could go wrong (or that you think are wrong) and cannot cope. It is a kind of slow panic. yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Davey Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:49 AM Peter, good points, and I apppreciate your ability to reveal yourself in public. When I first met you at Acoustic Harvest I sensed a tentativeness, and my own shyness wouldn't let me reach out through that. My own shyness, I believe, stems from the fact that as a child I was always put on 'show', being asked to recite poetry or other things for my aunts and uncles. My parents wanted to show how 'smart' their child was. I also had parents who experienced difficulty in praising their children directly, and in their attempts to help us be better tended to be critical of a minor point, no matter how good the overall actions were. A particular incident I recall occurred many years ago when I was beginning to write songs, and on one trip home I eagerly played a couple that I had just written. My parents reaction was "Hmmm.." That's all, no discussion, no other comments, no praise. So I think my shyness is less reticence and more akin to fear of criticism. This could also be what fuels my interest in playing music and singing with others, a longing for acceptance. I consider myself intelligent, socially aware, and have little time for small talk about things like sports or TV. I'd appreciate the opportunity to pursue this topic with you in person, as I admire your courage, sensitivity and your poetic, lyrical posts. Davey... (:>) |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: tar_heel Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:54 AM being shy resulted mostly from the fact that i s-s- s-studdered...when i was a kid...i m-m-m-m mean r-r-r-r really b-b-b bad!!!kids made fun of me...made jokes about me,,,,poited me out to other kids as the one who sss s-s- sstuddered really b b b bad!!i would go run and hide...and cry....but one year my mom bought me a guitar for christmas(1948)i learned some chords on it..g,c,d....and got up in front of the mirror and pretended i was LITTLE JIMMY DICKENS and sang...TAKE AN OLE COLD TATER AND WAIT!!!BAG!WHAMO!!ZAP!!WONDERFUL!!no more studdering,no more being shy,,,,,now i could do my own thing...still have that $12.00 STELLA guitar,today!!THANKS MOM!!!and THANK YOU SANDYTOES,FOR YOUR LOVE AND SUPPORT TOO! |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Little Neophyte Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:56 AM Peter, I think I should study that list of your and work on some shyness traits. It might keep me from getting into so much trouble. Banjo Bunny |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: MMario Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:58 AM I hate meeting new people, and new situations. I have been known to take multiple trips and god knows how many hours sitting in the car in the parking lot before going into a new grocery store. Yet I have been in "service" industry positions for most of my working life, and am told I "deal well with people" - |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Naemanson Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:14 PM When I get into crowds I become unable to distinguish between the conversation I am in and those around me. I know my hearing is good so I don't understand the phenomenon. Anyone else subject to this? It contributes to my shyness in such situations. I hate to be in a conversation and not understand the words being spoken so I fade back and just observe. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Little Neophyte Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:21 PM If anyone could tell me, I would love to know what is the difference between being shy and being scared. Bonnie |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Mbo Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:29 PM number 5 |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: GUEST,emily b Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:35 PM I wouldn't call myself shy. At least not when first meeting people. I love parties, being thrust in with many strangers. What fun. What is so hard for me is to then go to the next level, beyond the casual conversation of small talk. I'm afraid that people will discover that deep down I'm a very shallow person. This makes me hesitate to make the call to have someone to dinner or spend an afternoon with a new acquaintence/friend. If I have a reason to be thrown together with people, like at work or through music, etc. being with them is no problem because we have that between us. I first recognized this trait in college. 20+ years later, I still have it. But as I get older, I find myself being much more willing to state my opinion and offer up ideas. I think this is helping. I'm finally coming into my own as a person and am not so afraid of letting others see what's inside. It does amaze me how shy people and nervous (like me) people can get up and perform. emily |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Midchuck Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:36 PM 1, 2, 3, and 5. Being ugly doesn't bother me because a) lots of people are even uglier and b) so many physically good-looking people seem to be harmed as personalities by it. Strange thing with me is, I can sing for groups with no stage fright, and being moderator of our town meeting doesn't bother me. A crowd of people only bothers me when I'm in the middle of it - even though I'm more the center of attention when I'm up front. I'm probably just weird. Peter. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Dizzie Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:51 PM Peter |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Peter T. Date: 08 Sep 00 - 01:08 PM Hi, Shug, it was good to meet you yesterday. No, I actually wrote it a couple of days ago! (could have written it a couple of years ago). yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Allan C. Date: 08 Sep 00 - 01:20 PM I think there are lots of folks who are intrinsically shy for various reasons but can get in front of a group and somehow feel okay. I am now and have always been ill at ease while in large groups of people (which I define as being more than three or four). I have no explanation for it. I suppose I could find something applicable in every part of Peter's list. At some point I discovered that I could handle it as long as I had my guitar between me and them. The guitar was my shield and my singing was my armor. I was rarely very nervous at all during performances. I have decided that it may have something to do with control. I am not generally one who is very much into control issues; but my way of dealing with crowds is to either perform for them or to avoid them. Mostly, I am forced to exercise the second option. But when I am performing for them, I have a certain amount of control over them. (That's my illusion and I don't want anyone to tell me otherwise.) Another possibility is that playing and singing my songs gives me something comforting to do. It keeps my mind and my body too occupied with a pleasant task to worry about all of the people who surround me. Also (and I just now thought of this) it puts me in the position of sharing a part of myself with others without having to deal with them directly. I have gotten better over the years with being in crowds - barely. I would much rather spend the time talking one-on-one with somebody.
|
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Rick Fielding Date: 08 Sep 00 - 04:33 PM Hi Shug. Now what the hell were you and Peter doin' the other night? Just kidding. I know! I've talked about shyness a couple of times in the past here on Mudcat, and there certainly seems to be a lot of us in the same boat. For me (who always felt that I wrote the book on how shyness can screw up your youth) it became a matter of creating my own comfortable environment, rather than adapting to an existing one. Difficult to do at times, and can certainly put you outside the mainstream in many areas (and some areas where you'd LIKE to be mainstream) but it works. When I'm thrown into a situation that I have no control over (such as a cocktail party filled with corporate folks)...I revert to an introverted 14 year old, and wish to hell I had a Leadbelly record to clutch to my bosom! Rick |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: mousethief Date: 08 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM I definitely feel more comfortable with people when I am in a situation in which there are defined roles. For example, "the singer" and "the audience" or "the teacher" and "the students." Ironically, I love being the center of attention, and loved the time I spent teaching (as a T.A./grad student/indentured servant sort of thing), as well as the time I'm sitting with a guitar in my hands and people are listening to me and looking at me. But without some sort of defined role structure, I feel much more at sea when dealing with people. Of course it took me forever to realize all this, and for a long time I just thought I didn't like people. Even today I'm a loner in some ways. Neat thread; thanks for starting it, Peter T! BTW I'm not really a nonny mouse. My name is Alex. Here's my web page:
O..O |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Jim Dixon Date: 08 Sep 00 - 05:19 PM Here is a link to a web page sponsored by The Shyness Institute, which also contains lots of other links, as well as a bibliography. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Little Neophyte Date: 08 Sep 00 - 06:39 PM Personally, the sweetest people I have ever met, were usually the shyest. Bonnie |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: hesperis Date: 08 Sep 00 - 08:32 PM Numbers 3 and 5. I used to be very outgoing. Then I was abused physically and emotionally, and kinda withdrew into a world of my own. I used to be terrified of performing in public, because as a child, I was beaten up for "showing off", by the other kids at school and by my dad. Then my dad wanted to show me off to impress people, and he would go ballistic if I made the tiniest mistake. I was never into showing off. I wanted to share something I thought was cool, and would have been perfectly happy to share the attention. After a lot of determined work, and almost throwing up before a few performances, I still have problems doing solos. Although now I am perfectly comfortable in duets or larger ensembles. Music is my life. Some day, I'm going to be excited about performing, no matter what I'm doing for the performance, and no matter how many people are in the audience. At parties, I always seem to end up in a room by myself, reading my host's entire library and checking out the music collection to see what I want to borrow. I do that for an hour or more sometimes, before going back into the noise and conversations. I'm fine talking with people one-on-one, and have been known to start conversations with total strangers on the bus. "There are a lot of wounds that are written off by people as 'only shyness'" - from Women Who Run With The Wolves |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Willie-O Date: 08 Sep 00 - 09:23 PM Shy people had better watch out around here--'fore you know it you're talking to people like you've known them ten years. Most everybody that identifies themselves as shy seem far from reticent in the 'Cat environment. Maybe "shy" is too general a term...I think everyone favours certain social situations and modes of communications over others. Me, I hate making phone calls and small talk at parties. (Making phone calls at parties, I don't mind.) But if there's a good or even just tolerably decent jam going on, I am not reticent about speaking up musically even if I don't know anyone there. (Except fer those guys Grapelli and Reinhardt that were playing with some other cats in a smoky Left Bank cafe once. They didn't need any help from me.) (By the way, that's an ironic remark or, if you will, a fantasy. I am not that old.) Willie-O
|
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: JenEllen Date: 08 Sep 00 - 09:43 PM 2 and 3, but only with people I don't know. Luckily, in my work I don't have to spend too much time with humans (whew!) so I manage just fine. Dealing with critters is a different animal entirely. Growing up was horrible. Mostly because of a lot of losses very early in life. I think I just over-compensated, no sense getting attached because they won't be around for long. Trust yourself because it's all you've got. The people I hold close all know exactly who they are, and even though they might not know why they have it, they know they have a rock solid place in my heart. That kind of comfort is priceless to the socially inept. Your little eccentricities aren't being held under microscope.
The rest of life is spent in odd flagellation between ~Elle |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Tinker Date: 08 Sep 00 - 10:33 PM Rick, next time you're stuck with a bunch of corporate types perhaps the memory you brought back to me will help you find a smile. Many many moons ago ( many to many to mention here) when I was a young Catholic college girl (albiet with a Jewish roomate) I found myself explaining to members of Yale's Party of the Right ( Ultimate Corporate Types) that their party was boring and the next one need to include kegs and guitars. In fact my roomate and I challenged them to a keg swilling song contest. I'm not sure why they agreed, but armed with the Party of the Right Song Book (Honest) they proceeded to sing . Til we broke out in sweet harmony on two guitars and the lewdest disciptions we could dream up on Roll Me Over in the Clover. We never even got to the fun bawdy songs. Each corporate shirt choked on his beer before we got to number three.... It's all a matter of being in your element. Take away the rules and structure and those folks are just as shy. As for yours truely Despite my exhibitionist past I'm terrified of playing &/or singing Hearme... Perhaps in time |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 08 Sep 00 - 11:02 PM In High School,I had quite a problem with shyness,especially when I was forced to stand in front of class and read a paper. I had one instance during a long presentation that was very traumatic. I was reading a long passage,when I began to listen to the sound of my own voice. My first reaction was "gosh,I sound shaky and nervous...better get that under control." The greater my efforts to control it,the worse my voice reacted,until I was literally gasping for breath between phrases. This experience haunted me for years afterward,and I often couldn't sleep with anxiety if I knew I had to address a group the next day. But gradually,it has ebbed away,and I am much less self-conscious in my dealings with people,even to the point of enjoying addressing a group.I think my early experience had a lot to do with,not bad self-image,but the creation of a self-image that was a reflection of my peers perception of me.If I was among admirers,I shone. If I was among critics,or those hostile to me,I was weak and shaky. I believe I have at last reached a point where I am the author of my own self-image,and I am comfortable with me no matter what others may think. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: GUEST,eric Date: 09 Sep 00 - 12:39 AM Painfully shy. It is a feeling that permeates past the crossroads and down to the soul. Instantaneous. Solomon says.. (it is always handy to invoke a sage when your own fear-of-acceptance begins to dominate...shyness ...fear of Mudcat acceptance...but i suppose my own shyness is not all that great since I dare to write these words, ooh, now I'm feeling bold)...as Solomon says, what I think he has to say, is that much of human suffering is caused by the feeling of separateness; that (God, do I think that I can say, in a separate line, what Solomon tried to say to the world in verse after verse? Well,... ya, what the heck)...that a person can realise that he/she is a part of the whole as opposed to being separate from the whole. It is buddhism. Solomon was a danged buddhist. Shyness, according to Solomon and Jung (well, everyone knew that at some point modern psychology would be thrown into this thread)...shyness is a kind of hyper-sensitivity of the separate ego. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that hyper-sensitivity is very good, and that separate is not. Next time one is at a cocktail party, one can look around and one can say to one's self: "I feel isolated and alienated from this group of others." Or one can say: "I am a part of this group of strange people, and what is more, I am a hyper-sensitive part of this group and therefore a very essential part of this group." Eric |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 Sep 00 - 12:41 AM Welcome Eric.Have a martini.:>} |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Escamillo Date: 09 Sep 00 - 01:28 AM I'm #3, Peter. I don't attend parties except those inevitable (close relatives weddings) and try to arrive late and leave early, just as the rich and famous people. Hope to meet you soon again ! Un abrazo - Andrés |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Drumshanty Date: 09 Sep 00 - 07:31 AM Could not begin to tell you of all the time I have wasted and opportunities I have let pass because of shyness. When it got to the stage that I was too afraid to go and buy a pound of apples because I would actually have to TALK to somebody, I knew I had to get a grip. Nowadays, older and stronger, I can do things I could not do without company 10 years ago. I still am not a "joiner-inner" and prefer to observe than take part (even at my beloved Mudcat) but as time goes on I am more aware that if I am to get anything out of this life, I better start getting involved. My aim is to get to the stage where I can be asked to sing for a group and not immediately forget ALL the songs I ever knew. Drumshanty |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: balladeer Date: 09 Sep 00 - 09:15 AM I think my fear of groups of strangers is the fear of being ganged up on, attacked, maybe lynched. As I see it, a group with no clear positive focus always has the potential to turn into a mob. Paranoid? Maybe, but I've had some bad experiences. However, when I was performing I discovered that the audience functioned as a single entity, not as a bunch of separate individuals. I could build rapport with that entity and then we would ALL be very comfortable. A side benefit: when I would finish my set, people would seek ME out for conversation. My set had served as a way for me to introduce myself without having to go through the discomfort of one-on-one fumbling with strangers. Years later, when I had been away from performing for many years and my natural shyness had reached neurotic proportions, I joined a song circle. I hoped to learn to be comfortable just sitting around singing with people I know and people I don't know, where there is lots of eye contact and no feeling of controlling a crowd. Each year is easier than the last. Peter T, have we met? at Tony's house? Bunny -- do you think of yourself as shy or not shy? |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: CarolC Date: 09 Sep 00 - 05:58 PM This thread has helped me realise something that I never thought of in this way before. I never sing. I mean I never sing. I will never sing. At least not if people can here me. It's not because I'm necessarily a bad singer. I'm probably not much worse than average, but it's hard for me to tell. At a jam session this past Thursday, Maddie McNeil was leading us in a beautiful round. As moving as I found the song, I did not join in. I feel like I'm missing out on something special when this happens. Even when people are singing Christmas songs, I refuse to join in. I don't know why I experience this so powerfully, but it goes very, very deep. It's not fear, really. It's just a powerfully deep seated unwillingness to share that part of myself. The thought of doing so is very traumatic for me. Maybe this is a manifestation of some really weird kind of shyness. Anybody got a Freudian analysis on that one? Carol |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Peter T. Date: 10 Sep 00 - 10:13 AM I don't know, Carol, but I deeply sympathise. As soon as I start to play or sing with anyone around, even when I am alone with my teacher, I can remember nothing. It is like my mind just empties. It is a physical reaction. Very strange. Singing is incredibly vulnerable. Open the mouth, the body opens up, and then you vocalise. When I was an actor, we had the world's greatest voice coach come and give us a class, and she said that at least half of all voice problems were about some kind of fear, not immediately conscious, expressed physically in tightness, bad muscles, etc. She would get us to go backwards and forwards across the singing divide (she didn't call it that). She thought that ordinary speaking was a kind of singing, and that the formal thing was only more organized. Her problem was that people didn't connect speaking to singing, so their speaking voice was unmusical. So maybe in your case you have been singing in public all your life without knowing it! yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: CarolC Date: 10 Sep 00 - 10:46 AM Thanks, Peter T. I never thought of it that way. I do have a very musical speaking voice. Some people think I am a singer because of my speaking voice. Ironic, isn't it? Carol |
|
Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - Sept 8,00 From: Little Neophyte Date: 10 Sep 00 - 12:49 PM Good question balladeer, am I shy or not? In general, I do not share the same issues as those who have posted here yet inside myself I tend to feel shy in some respects yet I sense I do not appear shy to others. Maybe shyness can also be a relative thing too. BB |
| Share Thread: |