The term 'folk Nazi'

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: balladeer
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:03 PM

As long as there is the possibility that I might find myself in converstaion with a Holocaust survivor, or the child of a survivor, or the child of a child of a survivor -- in other words, in my lifetime, it will remain too soon for me to use the term "nazi" in a humorous context. I think "folk fascist" has a catchy ring -- but then I wonder whether such terms are truly useful at all. Don't they just help us avoid the struggle to find the words to say what we really mean?

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Mbo
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:55 PM

Or "Folktator"

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:48 PM

I'm not sure "folk police" parallels the other terms. The nazis were bad, the fascists were bad. But the police are not bad. They deal with bad people.

How about folk-extremists ... no historical references. These people do exist, and I run into them occasionally.

== Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:47 PM

I don't believe Mbo owes anyone an apology. He used the term exactly as it has been used around here for as long as I have been a member. But I am glad that Mike called attention to the inappropriateness of the term. And I think mousethief has the perfect solution. "Folk Police" works just as well in describing the activity.

From what I've read poor Arlo has both the folk and clothing police to contend with. Painful to think of him with grey hair.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Groucho Marxist (inactive)
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:44 PM

My parents are Holocaust survivors. Both lost their parents and all of their siblings to the Nazis. Whenever I see or hear someone using the word "Nazi" in a flippant or joking manner, I have to assume that they are either ignorant of 20th Century history or extremely malicious.

Rush Limbaugh is, indeed, an extremely malicious man. Jery Seinfeld should have known better.

Groucho

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:39 PM

We all agree that the nazis, past and present, are reprehensible and the use of their name is also in poor taste.

But what do we do about it? This country (the United States) allows the free expression of ideas and opinions, even theirs. They deal in hate and anger. We will never out hate them. We will never out anger them. We must take another approach.

I still believe that humor is the right approach but it must never be a form that makes them look good or harmless. It must always be a form that makes them out to be the subject of ridicule. And we must always keep in mind that they are always capagble of causing great pain.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Giac
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:28 PM

IMHO, Hedy and GUEST, Jew both used the key word: Think.

It's easy to pick up a catchy phrase that seems humorous on the surface and adopt it for one's very own. But, in such a diverse group, or any group for that matter, one should look deeper and decide if that phrase might hurt someone's feelings, or offend a friend. This doesn't take away one's freedom of speech, it just reinforces one's freedom of courtesy to another human, even a virtual one.

Friends, including virtual ones, are too special to hurt with a casual thoughtless remark.

Giac (floundering down off her soapbox)

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:28 PM

Hollowfox, I rather perfer this understanding or definition of of humour here

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: harpgirl
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:17 PM

Well, I understood what you meant, Meebs. The nazis were people: human beings. We have been committing atrocities against one another for as long as history has recorded our stories. Who knows why? Maybe we will evolve, (if we ever get off this planet) and we will revere life the way Buddhists do, all of us.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:14 PM

I can see how a term like that might spring to mind to refer to someone who was saying that some peculiar variation on the music ought not to be allowed, and that anyone who tried to do it ought to be roughed up or something. But just for saying that they don't like it? Or that it didn't fit in their understanding of the term "folk" - seems a bit over the top.

Actually the Nazis were very fond of the word "volk" themselves, and there were plenty of real folk Nazis. Just as in Serbia and Bosnia these last few years there've been folk musicians encouraging genocide, and mass murderers sponsoring folk bands. Real folk Nazis. Just because it's folk doesn't mean it's wholesome, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Hollowfox
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 06:56 PM

I share your wishes,Spaw. As to why people use the abhorrent in this way...I was told in my college anthropology classes that people joke about things that they fear, or make them nervous.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 06:52 PM

GUEST Jew,

You are welcome here. I would like to learn more about your traditions. I hope you will join as a member so we can exchange personal messages.

~Susan

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Jew
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 06:38 PM

The term "Nazi," attached to anything even remotely sane is still an ugly word. It shouldn't be used for humour. To do so, lessens the impact of the acts, to which it was associated. I have never been given the impression that neo-nazism is rampant on this website so I know it was used in humour. I don't laugh at that humour. I do not mean to chastise the members of this mudcat cafe, but would ask that you think about it a little more before using it.

Fortunato: My family are Sepphardic Jews, who left North Africa for Spain, only to be tortured by the Spanish Inquizition for their religious beliefs.

Thank you for taking time to "think."

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 06:34 PM

Frankee, me, too. I am glad to say, though, that I've received only one pro-Charley email today as opposed to several thank you's for the rebuttal I wrote.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: IvanB
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 06:16 PM

It seems to me that, all too often, epithets like "folk nazi" are hurled at posters who are doing nothing more than stating their opinions. The Nazis as we have come to know them were not about free exchange of opinion - they were about crushing free opinion by some of the most atrocious means known to humankind.

I have to agree with Praise. The use of epithets on Mudcat can only serve to lessen the sense of freedom and trust we share which allows us to exchange our ideas freely. Better we offer our contrasting opinions than trying to belittle others for the opinions they hold.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:42 PM

Using -nazi behind anything someone's obsessive about doesn't, in my opinion, show any disrespect for victims of the Third Reich but rather helps to keep nazism down at a level in our culture that it deserves to be at. However, I agree with Jeri, I think it's a rather mean spirited epithet to be using around this mostly friendly forum.
And kat, that sounds like vintage Charley. I'm sorry to learn he's become something more than a local (South FL) disease.

Frankie

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Mbo
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:33 PM

Well since I was the "someone" on the Arlo thread who said it, I suppose I should apologize.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 04:58 PM

The power of words..........

Its not just amazing, its more than that. Would that I could defuse the malevolent intent while never forgetting the origins. Would that I could make laughable the serious users. Would that I could steal the power to harm.

I doubt that any here have but detest and hatred for the fascist regime of Hitler and the atrocities of the times. But time will change the power ... but only we can keep alive the remembrance and through it the assurance that it not happen again.

Tough subject.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 04:55 PM

I think some rather small people have a need to demonize those they disagree with, and often call them the vilest names they can think of.

Imagine you're talking with someone about a person who doesn't like electric guitars used to play folk songs. Imagine you call that person a "folk nazi" and the person you're talking to informs you their parents died at Auschwitz at the hands of the real nazis. They ask you to explain how someone who has done nothing worse than dislike electric guitars can compare to a group of people who slaughtered millions of men, women and children. What do you say?

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Fortunato
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 04:41 PM

thanks Mike for making me think about this. I agree with your characterization of Nazis, and others here.

However I believe that words and slogans degrade naturally over time, and one way we see this is in 'humorous' uses of these 'formerly' abhorrent terms. When a subject is humorous and when a term is no longer so abhorent as to prevent its use will be disagreed on. However the slow degrade of the term is inevitable and perhaps healing.

My opinion is look to the context and usage. Although there have been other fiendish and bloody subjects they have degraded over time. Example: The Spanish Inquisition. Would we protest at the use of the word inquisition. In what year will it be acceptable to use the word nazi in other than it's literal sense? It will come.

Fortunato

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Hedy West (current membership)
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 04:34 PM

Joe, you make good sense. And anyhow, you're respectful and most unoppressive! Very unlike a fascist. Hedy (Beware of the bossy!)

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Hedy West (current membership)
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 04:22 PM

Which terms don't get used/abused; we're constantly depreciating our language and our thoughts.

But the use of "Nazi", "Hitler", "fascism" is ubiquitous; It's seared on the front of all our brains. It's a favorite cliché of high school debaters, for example. "There comes Hitler again," say the judges.

Brandishing those terms, however, is done by right and left; and the counting of corpses is done from both sides of the political spectrum, but only of the corpses created by their opponents.

We DO need to look at our own offenses. And at our own blinders. Think, rethink, and then, think again.

Hedy West

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 04:17 PM

A far better term would be "folk police" because it captures the idea far more accurately, without cheapening any words. These people want to enforce what is called folk and what isn't - as police enforce criminal law.

Just as on many e-mailing lists, the people who are always telling others not to post off-topic posts are referred to as "the topic police." Similarly for clothing police, etc.

Just my US$.02.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 04:09 PM

No, Thomas, you are right, and that is precisely why it is incumbent on those who CAN love, to love, even the hard-to-love, for how else do they learn about it?

We may say some have chosen not to love.

The past is determined, but the future, no matter how firmly entrenched someone seems in a present-time behavior and mindset, is entirely free choice. The choice to love is more powerful, always. It always has a greater potential to positively impact the future.

Who are we to know which act of love toward someone might make the difference and strike them on just the day they are ready to stop posturing?

~S~

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 04:00 PM

Someone who enlists the musical notions of others, as to 'what' to play, doing it by the book, doing it by rote, perhaps even to the exclusion of having fun... and that the appreciation given, is directly proportional to the hightly judgemental and imposing belief that there is a certain way to do 'it' (and this person knows what that way is...). These people seldom encourage newcomers (except to humiliate them of course), and form a closed circle of 'power' with rituals of abuse written into the code of conduct,...which is geared towards keeping their circle on top, because of an insane infatuation with their own POWERFUL sway...Fascist is a more subtle classification

ie... nothing to do with joyful communion, and individual healing processes singing/choosing songs they love. ttr

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:52 PM

Actually, Sean, the way the show was taped the orchestra was very understated so it didn't really intrude on what Arlo was doing. Plus he was wearing a tux as only a son of Woody could wear one. It looked too big, he had ditched the bowtie, and unbuttoned the shirt. With his flowing white hair it looked pretty good.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:50 PM

agreed Joe.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:48 PM

Well, I dunno. What the Nazis did was so unspeakably horrible that it does seem inappropriate to speak humorously of Nazis and the Gestapo. However, I think that humor may be a very strong tool we can use to help ensure that these horrors never happen again. If we speak of Nazis in hushed tones, we may even give them a sort of credibility. If we use terms like "folk nazi" or "soup nazi," or whatever, we make Nazis look ridiculous. If there's one fear the Neo-Nazis have, it's the fear of looking ridiculous.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Sean Belt
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:48 PM

Mike wrote:
>>In the Arlo Guthrie thread today, someone referred to people who don't like Arlo performing with orchestras as "folk Nazis."

How about instead we refer to them as "really-silly-people-who-think-they-know-it-all-and-have-the-right-to-tell-us-what's-righteous-and-good-for-us"? Nah. It just doesn't have that ring to it.

But the truth is that, that's pretty much what they are. And fairly harmless at that.

Name calling never really helps anything. If you happen to like Arlo Guthrie playing with an orhestra (and just for the record, I'm not wild about it) or Pete Seeger playing with a large choir (which on the other hand, I quite enjoy), or anything which is out of the narrow confines of "the way the music's always been played", then who cares what other people's taste tells them. You like it. That's what matters.

- Sean

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:44 PM

Why split hairs on how to cast an insult, and instead forgo the opportunity to look at something negatively altogether?

~S~

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:39 PM

Mike, you've made a good point. I used to think the term was funny until it was applied to me (and others) in the Arlo thread. It quickly lost its humor.

Still there is a lot to be said for disarming through humor. I love Lonesome EJ's mental picture because it is a charicature of Nazis that they themselves would hate. Given the choice at a Aryan Nation rally I would rather laugh at them than yell at them. Anger and hate are their stock in trade and plays into their hands. Laughing at them defuses them and holds them up to the ridicule they so richly deserve.

How about following Banjo Johnny's idea and coming up with another term? How about Folk Fascist? Same connotation but maybe not as pointed.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:38 PM

guess Jerry Seinfeld (not to mention the entire city of New York) should have held his tongue when he referred to the Soup Nazi. (but it wouldn't have been half as funny)

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:34 PM

Actually LEK, he is carrying a banjo with the following printed on it: "This banjo surrounds hate and embraces it". Sorry. He made me do it.

I am still not clear what a "folk Nazi" is. Any clear definitions?

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:28 PM

Hey Mike, I'm with ya all the way. I have heard these 'enforcers' refer to the offenders as 'gestapo' on many occasions, and though it is less offensive somehow when someone makes reference to a genecidal police state organisation, instead of the political party and ideals that underly it's approach, it is still horrid. The need to use such terms to make a point about music surely indicates misplaced priorities, and speaks volumes as to the volitility of our excessively corralled and haltered emotions.

Music is entertainment; not genocidal fascism.

Sometimes I think that people are allergic to the appreciation of others, and can only show appreciation if they 'need' to 'impress' someone. A sucky siren serenade is a pretty poor excuse for appreciation.

The whole dynamic about musical taste being so important that rude inhospitible insulting distractions ensue from polite conversation is inconcievable to me, and yet it happens to all of us. Odd ain't it? Double scoop-o-the best, ttr

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:27 PM

sometimes we laugh to keep from weeping.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:24 PM

Lonesome EJ,

Your mental picture is exactly what I was referring to when I said that inappropriate use of the word "Nazi" cheapens its meaning.

MR

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:14 PM

Sorry,but the term "Folk Nazi" is pretty hilarious in my view.I get a mental picture of some jack-booted thug in a greek fisherman's cap wearing a 12 string and a Lugar,saying "Ve haff vays of making you play zee traditional muzik!"

As for Limbaugh,its the oldest form of propaganda known to man...come up with a term that is likely to be applied to you,and use it first against your enemies.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:06 PM

Well, MR, I think Mudcat can be safe even for people who do want to use Rush Limbaugh for a role model. NOT PC enough-- safe enough. To be tolerant enough that people continue to give one another access to their thoughts. Without that access, we cannot learn from each other. I would hope this place continues to be one that lets us do that. I don't want anyone to go away for lack of tolerance. I would hope the music is bigger than all of that, and makes us so as well.

~S~

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:06 PM

Okay, what's the alternative? How can you describe someone who thinks he (or she) has the God-given right to tell everyone else what to do? How about Folk Republicans?

== Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:03 PM

Very good point, Mike, thanks for bringing it up.

For my efforts as an op/ed columnist, I received an email, today, after publication of a pro-homosexual column,with no mention of the right to choose issue, telling me "I might add that individuals who hold your line of thinking are the same ones who support Nazism at its worst; it is called abortion."

Charley Reese, IMO, a despicable far right columnist, calls anyone who is pro-gay rights, the "sodomite lobby" and also equats them with Nazism and non-Christian.

He uses the Nazi label quite freely and often, saying that the liberals of this country are heading us right into the same kind of debauchery, etc. that led up to the Third Reich!

Sorry for the rant. Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:58 PM

I don't see why anyone in this community should want to use Rush Limbaugh as their role model.

MR

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:54 PM

Mike, I appreciate the clarity with which you made your point.

I think people use the kind of unfortunate shorthand to which you allude, in an attempt to indicate the importance they place on values they feel are at stake. I say unfortunate because using a button-pushing word usually accomplishes the exact opposite of what is intended, which usually is clear communication.

I would hope-- before a universally defensive tone develops in this thread where we all take turns assuring each other we never meant this or that or whatever offense-- that we all just pause and give thanks for the access we have to one another's hearts in this forum. That access is a precious thing to be well cared for.

I think when a topic or an approach to it hurts or offends, it's appropriate to holler a good clear OUCH. I know in my case that when I do this, I just want that OUCH to be heard and for an understanding of it to be incorporated in the future communication.

Good on ya, Mike.

~Susan

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: MMario
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:53 PM

no - it's been around longer then that.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:50 PM

Blame rush Limbaugh who started it all with "feminazi".

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:46 PM

Here, here.

Subject: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:39 PM

In the Arlo Guthrie thread today, someone referred to people who don't like Arlo performing with orchestras as "folk Nazis."

I've seen that term bandied about many times in Mudcat threads, and elsewhere, usually describing people who are traditionalists.

I've also seen such terms as "health Nazis," used to describe anti-tobacco activists, or "gun Nazis," used to describe advocates of gun control.

Such usage of the word "Nazi" is highly offensive and cheapens its meaning. The Nazis were perpetrators of some the greatest evils of history: genocide, religious, racial and sexual hatred, war, etc. The Nazi regime murdered 6 million Jews and more millions of others including Gypsies, homosexuals, and anyone who didn't toe their despicable party line.

Advocates of traditional music, gun control or tobacco control have nothing is common with Naziism at any level.

Mike Regenstreif