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BS: Fuel crisis

Eric the Viking 20 Sep 00 - 03:01 PM
JamesJim 19 Sep 00 - 10:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Sep 00 - 04:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Sep 00 - 02:44 PM
Eric the Viking 19 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM
Penny S. 19 Sep 00 - 07:36 AM
Eric the Viking 19 Sep 00 - 06:36 AM
Llanfair 19 Sep 00 - 03:48 AM
Terry K 19 Sep 00 - 02:35 AM
JamesJim 18 Sep 00 - 11:17 PM
Linda Kelly 18 Sep 00 - 04:54 PM
The Shambles 18 Sep 00 - 03:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Sep 00 - 07:31 AM
Terry K 18 Sep 00 - 01:03 AM
The Shambles 17 Sep 00 - 05:47 PM
Terry K 17 Sep 00 - 01:39 PM
P05139 17 Sep 00 - 06:10 AM
Jon Freeman 16 Sep 00 - 06:56 AM
Penny S. 16 Sep 00 - 06:43 AM
Roger in Sheffield 16 Sep 00 - 03:20 AM
Roger in Sheffield 16 Sep 00 - 03:19 AM
DougR 15 Sep 00 - 11:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Sep 00 - 08:23 PM
Roger in Sheffield 15 Sep 00 - 03:53 PM
GeorgeH 15 Sep 00 - 02:19 PM
The Shambles 15 Sep 00 - 02:00 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 09:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 00 - 09:18 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 09:09 PM
The Shambles 14 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 06:45 PM
kendall 14 Sep 00 - 03:12 PM
Melodeon 14 Sep 00 - 03:03 PM
DougR 14 Sep 00 - 01:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 00 - 01:11 PM
Bagpuss 14 Sep 00 - 10:53 AM
kendall 14 Sep 00 - 10:17 AM
oggie 14 Sep 00 - 09:28 AM
A Wandering Minstrel 14 Sep 00 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Michael in Swansea 14 Sep 00 - 08:58 AM
kendall 14 Sep 00 - 08:24 AM
Linda Kelly 14 Sep 00 - 07:44 AM
The Shambles 14 Sep 00 - 02:14 AM
kendall 13 Sep 00 - 11:03 PM
DougR 13 Sep 00 - 09:42 PM
Catrin 13 Sep 00 - 06:47 PM
Bill D 13 Sep 00 - 06:41 PM
Gervase 13 Sep 00 - 05:44 PM
Penny S. 13 Sep 00 - 05:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Sep 00 - 04:22 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 03:01 PM

Hi McGrarth-wondered how clever people did that is this working

This should work if I read what you say right. Cheers. Eric


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: JamesJim
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:40 PM

McGrath, lad, as far as I'm concerned, you could never think of enough good reasons to tax anything at 80% (at least for me). I would bet that you would be very lonely, if we were all in one big room and an announcer said, "all who believe that an 80% tax on anything is a good idea, please move to the left of the room - all who believe that such tax could never be justified, move to the right of the room. The building would tilt right and you'd end up on our side.

However, I indeed do believe in Government oversight, which through the making of law can actually impose a tax, but in a different, less objectional form. For example, our government (US) already oversees air purity, by requiring manufacturers of the automobile and other vehicles, to provide engines that reduce pollution. Most local States/Cities test vehicles once per year to see that they are complying. This is certainly a tax to which I do not object. The reason is simple. It places the product produced in the free market - a competitive environment. Government never invented anything, but it's for sure that if you have two or more manufacturers competing for consumer dollars, they'll find ways to deliver economically.

As to oil spills (as an example), government should force offenders to clean up spills, etc. It's difficult for the offender to pass such costs on, simply because of competition (this may not be a good choice as an example, because we are probably dealing with an ologopoly in the oil industry and not true competition).

My point is very simple. Don't let government take your money and promise you they will be efficient with it! Ain't gonna happen!!!!

Cheers to you my friend and fellow Mudcatter! These words are written in good humour and good cheer. We are all in this world together and I know we both want to make the best of it.

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 04:46 PM

And don't that as a criticism Eric, because it all seemed to make good sense to me.

But JamesJim's "80% tax on anything is absolutely ridiculous!!!! " doesn't. Not as a general proposition, because it's too easy to think of examples where that might be a perfectly reasonable level of tax.

For example, if I use something that causes a lot of pollution, why shouldn't I have to pay for the cost of cleaning it up, and making good the damage? That is part of the real cost of the stuff, and just because it costs less than that to make it is no reason for loadsinmg the cost on to other people.

What the right cost for petrol should be, and who should decide it, and how we can find ways to spread the cost of keeping this planet habitable, in a way that is fair, those are other questions, and I'd never say that the British Government or any other government have got it right, or even look like getting it right.

But the principle that all of us should be responsible for the cost of clearing up the mess we make - that seems pretty basic to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 02:44 PM

Please Eric lad, could you break up the text a bit? It makes my eyes water trying to read great lumps of print on the screen! (You probably know how already, but if you don't, you just put {P} at the end of every paragraph - except that instead of { and } you put < and > )


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

Oh I am sure that we should be worrying about this government. They lie and decieve, they twist and turn, they manipulate,they are controllers, not makers of freedom, they do precious little to make things better for the common man (like others before them-but not all) but in opposition they declared that they should be whiter than white and better than ever and that they would represent the WHOLE country. To many of us who hoped for a brighter future (at least in part for our children)they have been a Bitter disappointment.I don't want the Tories back, but I believe they have shot themselves in the foot over this and now many are baying for their blood, especially the media who are now listing all the faults that have occurred since they took office. Cheers. Eric


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:36 AM

I did say I was being paranoid, Jon. (My excuse is that I was, unknowingly, sickening for a bug. I should have recognised the symptom) But someone in the press pointed out how we had gone for the refineries in Kosovo to paralyse the country, and we've now seen how easy it is to do it without bombs, relying on the self-centredness of the population. We have also seen how easy it is to whip up violence and witch-hunt behaviour. This does have me uneasy, jarring the image I have had of the place where I live. I believe Tony Blair is wrong to say that demonstration and protest is not part of British political behaviour, but I have been as guilty of blindness in forgetting the Gordon riots.

I am puzzled by the references to mobile phones as the medium for this. In Portsmouth, there was a contained community where people knew each other. This is more difficult to see applying across the country. You have to know people's numbers, and that they agree with you for this to work. I've been involved in an organised phone tree, and it isn't easy to imagine a spontaneous version.

I don't think that these things were, themselves, a conspiracy beyond their immediate purposes. But they have shown that we are vulnerable to influences which can whip up extreme reactions. And there are people who might like to have that knowledge. Whether they are people with access to the means is another matter.

Since my intemperate, not entirely serious post, a number of other things have made me less than happy. The govt. web site of lists of garages, which someone was able to titivate each day, changing the format from Excel to Acrobat to CSV, never added the list of occupations entitled to buy fuel, which I only found on teletext. Both of these means are not universally available, anyway, which enhanced the word of mouth spreading of inadequate information which led to pointless queueing. The selected garages were not necessarily in places where queues could easily be accommodated. The nearest one to me had a motorway sliproad and a roundabout so that three streams were waiting. I think, from the rate of movement, that the sliproad was given priority. If these were the plans they had for the gulf war, they weren't very good.

There was no limit on the amount of fuel bought. In the circumstances, I feel that there should have been, from as early in the business as possible. I remember rationing. It worked. It should have been part of the current plans. Organising parties in breweries and ways out of paper bags come to mind. Probably the inability of a government (whatever colour) to organise better is most worrying.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 06:36 AM

Sorry for the prolonged absence from this thread, but I dislocated my ankle on friday and have only just been able to get back to my PC- I am well on the mend after enforced rest and hope to get to the Jug on wednesday as we now have some petrol. What still seems interesting to me despite all the fairly logical arguments and counter arguments put here is that the Government (Like it's predesessors) is still not listening to the voice of the people. The Govenrment is here to run the country on behalf of it's citizens, not on it's own behalf and while I don't agree that it should take popularist stances just to stay in power it should recognise the fundimental difference between representing the best wishes of it's population and Governing for the minority (who seem to have the financial clout)Budgets set out targets and so are supposed to develop the nation in it's financial efforts. So here we have a government that gives tax breaks worth £ millions to business and 70p a week (about $0.5)to the old There have been comments about people who expect to get things for nothing,but none of us get anything for nothing, all things have a price,whether it's "free" education and healthcare or lower taxes.We all pay for these and, ignoring the petty joke of, "I don't want to pay my taxes for your children's education" we support a large polulation who live near and below the poverty line.There is no real reson for this, there is loads of money out there, it's just being held by the few and not the many. (Don't worry Roger-no offense taken) Don't forget that the object is employment is the enable someone else to profit from your labours (in most cases) and I think a fair wage is a good return. However there are many who do not get a fair wage and contribute to massive profits for others ie Shareholders and directors etc-these people take a very high (in comparrison) slice of the cake. They can afford to distribute more to the poorer elements of society who are taxed as heavily as them. The level of taxation is what is unfair. If you have £5,000.00 per month income and compare it to £800.00 a month then what is within your reach is far better than those with much less. Who is to say what a person's true worth is? Am I worth less because I don't sit in a boardroom? Am I worth more because I don't clean toilets? (I don't think there's anything wrong with that-so please don't start!) Politicians very soon forget that they are there to "Represent their constituents"and the government is there to represent it's people. The fuel crisis, though I still support the action,hit everyone and the Government response was very poor. Irrespective of the "plot" between the oil companies, the right wing of politics and the duplicity of the drivers of the tankers, it happened and happened fast. There is still a massive support for the cut of the tax on fuel-those with less income still have much less to spend than the rich and nothing has changed. I still believe that those earning substancially more could be taxed higher and that personal taxation and not indirect taxation should be the way of Governments. Eric


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Llanfair
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 03:48 AM

Well, after complaining about people from the city visiting the countryside to fill their tanks with petrol, it turns out that our local garage never ran dry.
I only found out yesterday, as I refused to go until I actually NEEDED the fuel.
I did, however , have an interesting conversation with a chap who was one of the picketers. He says that the whole thing started at Ruthin market, when a couple of farmers and a couple of lorry owners got talking. The farmer who organised it all, he says, had a lot of attention from MI5, and has since disappeared. No-one knows where he is.
Urban Myth? Possibly, but curious, nevertheless.
Regards, Bron.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 02:35 AM

Ickle Dorritt - sorry if my rather pompous outburst caused offence - I have PM'd you to explain!!

McGrath - you're absolutely right, Shambles and I don't know how to spell the name of the Leader of the Opposition! In mitigation, I think it says more about him than about us.

And Shambles - I don't think that what goes out as John Smith's nowadays would qualify as beer.

Cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: JamesJim
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:17 PM

I have read all of this with much interest and I can no longer keep quiet. Isn't it a riot (no pun intended) how politicians can lead us into a maze, then leave us to find our own way out? I realize that speaking in general terms is sometimes foolish, but I can't resist. Despite the complexity of this issue (Some say the oil companies are to blame, some say OPEC, some say the Government, etc., etc.) 80% tax on anything is absolutely ridiculous!!!! I don't care how "cheap" petro was when all of this taxation began (I can hear the politicians saying, "we can just add a little tax on this low fuel cost and we can provide "free" healthcare for everyone), the fact is, the public is responsible for allowing the tax to reach 80%. When the majority feel they are "entitled" to certain services, this is what we get. Not only a very expense system, but a poor one to boot.

I hope America still has time to learn a lesson from all of this, but there is enough history and evidence to make me doubt it. I truly believe we are our brother's keeper, yet I can't help but despise turning over my resources to an often very corrupt and always inefficient, bureaucratic government to solve problems. In case I'm losing anyone, what I am saying is that taxation beyond providing for highways and defense is stupid.

I like to think I am an optimist (it may not sound like it above). In fact, I truly believe we will find a solution somewhere down the road (again, no pun intended). It may be an alternative fuel that can be produced at home (ha! no such luck), or it may be a group of pioneers jumping onto a spaceship and leaving for a tax free colony on another planet (beam me up, Scottie!). At any rate, this all promises to bring lots of pain for a lot of folks before the problem is solved. Hey, but with pain comes progress. We will survive!

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 04:54 PM

ooh Terry don't throw a wobbler at me- because it goes completely over my head!

If I have misunderstood your thread where you kindly suggested that it makes absolute sense that those who could afford private health should choose to do so leaving the NHS for those who could not- then please forgive me BUT there is no main provision for a private GP service, private mental health private vaccinations and private childcare on a scale which would benefit this country. the NHS is not a sacred cow to me -(I sell private heathcare for a living) but the provision that it makes is for specialised non acute services and is reliant upon the NHS for our ordinary health provision. Healthcare costs about one hundred pounds a month for a family of four -dragging ourselves back to the fuel strike -if we don't vote to pay higher taxes and we don;t want to pay extra for anything else -give me the odds on the number of people willing to opt for a totally private cradle to grave service. And if you can't then that's where the NHS comes in. (By the way only my dog is allowed to call my comments stupid!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:36 PM

Isn't John Smith a beer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:31 AM

Haig is a brand of whisky; "Don't be vague, ask for Haig". The fella with the bald bonce and the baseball cap is called Hague. It's like calling Blair Blur. In both cases I can see where the confusion arises.

A pity John Smith died.

But wasn't it lovely and quiet for a few days...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:03 AM

The Blair twat (ably assisted by the Prescott twat) was utterly inept in his handling of the situation.

One suspects that the Haig twat would have been just as bad. To me, Blair and Haig are completely transposable and would adjust their actions and reactions accordingly.

Cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 05:47 PM

William Haig, The Leader of the Opposition, today described the protesters as "fine upstanding citizens".


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 01:39 PM

Ickle Dorritt wrote

"regards Terry K's point on the NHS, are you saying everyones taxes should pay for the training of doctors and nurses pay for the infrastructue and yet those with money can rise to the top of the queue".

Er, no.

But I no longer get surprised to receive facile criticism from those who wish to jump to inconsequential conclusions about their sacred cows. What I asked was that the public and private sectors work together for the common good, so where the stupidity in the above quote comes from, I am at a loss to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: P05139
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:10 AM

I'm glad that it's more or less sorted because if they'd stopped the buses, I wouldn't have been able to get to college, and seeing as I'm doing my A Levels thatr would've totally burgered me up!

There must be easier ways to swear at the Government without causing chaos!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 06:56 AM

Penny, please expand on what you mean by taken over and how?

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 06:43 AM

It is now known how rapidly the country could be taken over, and the lynch mobs initiated. Unless, of course, the government takes powers to close down the mobile systems. Don't mind me, every now and then I get these paranoid attacks, but then, that doesn't mean there isn't something to be afraid of.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:20 AM

The Strike is over Doug. Let the Debate begin
Unfortunately the media is already more interested in Big Brother than other important issues
Farming is in crisis here - I think its bad over there too??With lots of eastern Countries industrialising and requiring oil there could be more trouble ahead as we all want a larger share of this resource
On last nights news there was a car dealer delivering his chilling opinion that we should forget about global warming as its already too late. So it seems like we should live for today and not worry about tomorrow that much
I noticed in Ireland this summer when we shopped at a supermarket that the amount of Irish produce was itemised separately. Perhaps we should have the same here and see how much support British farmers do get in real terms?
What ever happened to supply and demand anyway, I would love to buy some organic fruit and veg locally but it doesn't exist. Organic Food it seems is a little like public Transport, everyone likes the idea of it but no one wants to pay for it
Roger


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:19 AM

The Strike is over Doug. Let the Debate begin
Unfortunately the media is already more interested in Big Brother than other important issues
Farming is in crisis here - I think its bad over there too??With lots of eastern Countries industrialising and requiring oil there could be more trouble ahead as we all want a larger share of this resource
On last nights news there was a car dealer delivering his chilling opinion that we should forget about global warming as its already too late. So it seems like we should live for today and not worry about tomorrow that much
I noticed in Ireland this summer when we shopped at a supermarket that the amount of Irish produce was itemised separately. Perhaps we should have the same here and see how much support British farmers do get in real terms?
What ever happened to supply and demand anyway, I would love to buy some organic fruit and veg locally but it doesn't exist. Organic Food it seems is a little like public Transport, everyone likes the idea of it but no one wants to pay for it
Roger


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:39 PM

Evidently the strike is over, and petrol should soon be more available, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:23 PM

For some reason I keep on thinking of this song

What you gonna do when the lake goes dry, honey,
What you gonna do when the lake goes dry, babe,
What you gonna do when the lake goes dry,
Sit on the bank and watch the crawdads die,
Honey, sugar baby mine.

A lake of oil. This has felt like a rehearsal for a John Wyndham story. Or maybe Stephen King.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 03:53 PM

Eric the Viking
You have children?
I don't and I object to paying for your kids education through my taxes!
By all means take the fuel tax down and let parents pay for their children's education. Suits me fine - what do you think?










Only Joking !!!!!!! but that's how stupid and petty it can get.



On TV tonight one of the Farmers who organized the protest was seemingly close to tears as he showed the crop in his field that he says is ruined. he should have been harvesting it this week but instead was out protesting, now he cannot see how he can pass on the family farm to his children as his business is ruined.
I have lived on a farm, have sympathy with farmers, yet think they have been led astray to protest about the wrong cause. Farmers should be protesting about the low prices they are paid for their produce not the cost of diesel. we the consumers are happy to go to the supermarkets and pay ever lower prices for food and push farmers to the edge. Lets remember that it is hard to do without petrol but doing without food is much more difficult - So if we rely just on imports there could be real trouble ahead!
At the same time there different kinds of farmers. Some are very much businessmen only, large fields, environment be damned, hedges out. Others care deeply about their Farms, the countryside and the local community. The second kind should be supported, subsidized and valued – the first I fear picket oil depots for their own selfish purposes. For subsidy read Maintenance grant, a lot of the beauty of the 'Countryside' has been maintained by Farmers for the rest of us to enjoy. If all Farmers treated the job as purely Business then the Countryside would be as ugly as many industrial estates.
Roger – not at all behind the protest – distressed by a sudden liking of Tony Blair – can I get treatment for that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GeorgeH
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:19 PM

The main reason the blockade was so effective is that the Government instructed the Police to interpret the law differently to how they usually do!

Oh, and I've not seen it mentioned (on a quick scan of this thread) - what's the logic behind farmers (who get diesel at an almost duty-free price) protesting about fuel tax, Mrs Duck? Sorry, but you left that out of your account.

The "blockade" is the biggest "con" ever perpetrated on the British people, and most of them are deluded into supporting it . . "Hey, Mr Highwayman, you've only taken my wallet and failed to notice I'm wearing these wonderful gold cuff-links . . . "

Perhaps we DO get the Government we deserve.

As for comparing fuel prices with Europe - remember our currency is at an artificially high exchange rate relative to the rest of the continent.

(Why is it that the Germans, with a depressed economy, can afford massive investment in "Public works", while Britain - with the "strongest" economy in Europe - can't?)

G.


Duplicate messages zapped. --JoeClone


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:00 PM

Doug the protest, in less than 5 days has resulted in the effect that no fuel can be obtained anywhere in the UK. The speed of this action is an entirely new thing. One of the reasons for this is that with everybody and his dog in the UK, now owning a mobile phone, it is now possible for all those involved in protest, to be in immediate contact with everyone else.

Had this form of communication been available, during other, more honest popular protests, like those against the Poll Tax, the course of UK politics would have been very different.

It has been an old type of action with an entirely new type of protester. They have not been elected to speak for, and do not represent anyone, but themselves. Their motives are completely selfish, but they have managed, thus far, to convince the general public that the action has been conducted on their behalf.

They have not accepted that the present government has been democratically elected and will not rest until they bring it down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:44 PM

I don't make it a practice to be unkind in my postings, McGrath of Harlow. If on ocassion the reader reads it that way, it is not intended.

Thank you for your posts on the fuel strike. Our newspaper hasn't covered the story as completely as the news I have picked up here on the Mudcat.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:18 PM

If the miners had had mobile phones, they'd probably have been counted as offensive weapons, and proof of conspiracy.

DougR - the media here have been overwhelmingly in favour of the petrol blockade. Problems for essential swervices, hospitals cancelling operations, schools shutting down, nurses unable to make housecalls to cancer patients - that's all been the fault of the government.

The people who'd be talking about "holding the country to ransom" if it was the unions calling a srtrike are talking rapturously about "people power"; the unions have been trying to persuade people to call of the protest and get back to work.

And the very same people in the media who last week were denouncing the French lorry drivers for doing the same thing, and ridiculing the French giovernment for backing down are now praisingthe English lorry drivers, and calling on the British government to back down.

It's all very bizarre.

But it's a bit frightening, how very vulnerable our whole society is. It's like a bicycle - stop it, and it falls over, just like that. But if you don't stop it, it's headed straight out over a cliff.

(And thanks DougR for your peaceful and courteous response to a crack by me about "fuel crises" that you could well have bridled at.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:09 PM

Sorry to be thick, Shambles, but I don't follow. What does the mobil phone have to do with it?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM

One of the main differences in the efficiency of this dispute compared to the earlier strikes mentioned in this thread, is the mobile phone (and the Net).

Interesting to speculate on the outcomes of these, if the moble phone had been invented earlier?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:45 PM

Kendall, your historical recollection coincides with mine, but then we are both old farts who studied history in school many moons ago. They probably have revised history many times since then.

I really do feel for our friends in Great Britain. I read either in one of the posts, or perhaps it was the morning newspaper that gasoline is $4.50 a gallon there! We bitch about paying $1.50. Course I can remember when it (Regular) was .30 a gallon or less too.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:12 PM

They already had one Doug! Lets hear it for the Roundheads!! No, I'm not suggesting dumping oil, but, if the whole country could stop buying petrol for one day it would send a message. It worked here with sugar when the price went out of sight. According to the history I was taught, the Boston tea party came about because King George 3rd had levied a tax on it. And the colonists refused to pay it. In all fairness to poor George, all he wanted was some financial help in paying for the soldiers who were sent here to protect the colonists from the indians. As I recall, England was at war with France, Spain and Holland. As we have learned in later years, enemies are expensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Melodeon
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:03 PM

I really have been too angry to respond to this thread so far but now I feel much better and just a little vindicated. I think what may have started out as what the protesters saw as a legitimate ( although self centred ) protest was hi jacked by the extreme right and the lunatic fringe, and I don't think the oil companies did anything to alleviate the situation.(Am I being too cynical when I suggest that they deliberately waited until the whole country was virtually dry and then raised their prices).Of course the Govt must NOT back down or we shall all sorts of pressure groups trying the same tactics. one wonders how many of these truckers would be willing to pay less in fuel tax but more in income tax, which is much fairer. As a nurse and a parent I like having more spent on hospitals and I am pleased that my daughter's school has more teachers and more resources than it had three years ago. I also wonder where the truckers and the farmers get their fuel from to blockade the roads ( have the police tested the vehicles to see if they are running on red DERv(tax free fuel sold exclusively for off road agricultural vehicles). While we're on the subject of the police would they have been quite so pally with the protesters if they had been wearing miners helmets (if you can find any nowadays)

Viv (now getting off soap box)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:33 PM

Just curious. How do you, our British Mudcat friends, feel about your PM's stance on the petrol tax? He is obviously getting a lot of pressure to reduce the tax. Should he stand firm on his current stance?

Also, there has been mention of the British media. Are they usually pro or con Tony Blair, and what is their take on his current stance?

DougR

P. S. Kendall, stop trying to incite a civil war in Great Britain! :>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:11 PM

But wasn't the Boston Tea Party actually a protest against a government bringing cheap stuff into the country, which would have caused problems for some local businessmen?

I mentioned the Chile truck-owners strike that was part of the build up to the 1973 Chile putsch here is a link to an article which puts this in context

Not that I see Tony Blair as any kind of an Allende figure. But I think we are being conned into not recognising that all this is being manipulated by the petrol companies as a way of upping their profits at the longterm expense of everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Bagpuss
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:53 AM

kendall, are you suggesting that we dump a load of oil in the sea? ! Or just that we have a party?

;-)

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:17 AM

What you folks need is a good old fashion Boston Tea Party...we can show you how to organize one..


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: oggie
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:28 AM

There is no such animal as 'indirect taxation' - someone still pays the tax! My objection is that 'direct' taxation is in many cases fairer because everyone can see what is happening and it is directly progressive, 'indirect' taxation tends to be skewed and hit certain groups disproportionately - for example the rural poor (not all country dwellers are rich farmers).

Transparent taxation gives an opportunity for a discussion on priorities with prices attached, a shift to indirect taxation also helps conceals where money is being spent, out of sight, out of mind.

As a lifelong member of the Labour Party I find a world in which Roy Hattersley is portrayed as on the left of the party more than a little disconcerting! Media spin is part of the problem, perhaps the bigger problem is that we have an authoritarian government, of predominantly professional politicians, which believes in that spin and which listens to non-representative focus groups and advisers who do not reflect the world outside government.

Sorry for the rant

All the best

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:19 AM

Well after careful husbanding I finally got down to the red line on my tank last night so It was a brisk walk to the station this morning! Only drawback is I won't be able to go to the folk club tonight to sing songs of protest as it's too far to walk.

Shambles and Dorrit have the right of it. We are being held to ransom by (to quote Steve Bell in the Guardian) some "fat disgruntled gits against everything". These are the same folk in badly maintained trucks who weave about on motorways. Yes I know it's their livelihood but there is a planet to consider.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:58 AM

The list of "priority" petrol stations may be found at, (sorry can't do clickies), http://www.sky.com/invision/petrol
Hope this is of use.
M


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:24 AM

Someone once said "The public be damned."


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:44 AM

I do not think that we will ever get to the bottom of what I also believe to be a bogus dispute, because let's face it on every level the mediai in this country are a sham.Even the BBC have debased itself over recent years and there are better levels of journalism in hello magazine. As a loyal labour non Blairite, I have to say that a lot of this is to blame on spin. The press no longer take any notice of government sources convinced that the info has been spun out of control. Its a case of what comes around goes around.Oggie, the result of giving people the choice of more pounds in their pocket has to have a negatve effect on indirect taxation. Governments don't give money away they simply redistribute cost through other channels -the choice of which is given to us through our right to vote. In times of lower inflation a lower tax rate was probably the right choice to make. regards Terry K's point on the NHS, are you saying everyones taxes should pay for the training of doctors and nurses pay for the infrastructue and yet those with money can rise to the top of the queue. Private health companies want ot build clinics in the grounds of NHS hospitals -why is that I wonder???


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:14 AM

Good points Gervase. I have had personal experience organising official industrial action, within a major oil company. It is fair to say that I do not recognise the oil companies current considerate and understanding reaction to an unofficial picket line?

Public opinion has been slow to pick up on the realities of this dispute. I would like to think that this will change, when they see the dishonesty of this bogus 'popular' campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:03 PM

Sorry about the gutter language, but, I do get carried away at times. In my area, the republicans are running an ad based on that remark Gore made about the internet...ok, fair enough, now how about the Democrats running an ad based on George W.'s comment about the reporter? Will they stoop that low? Or an equal to the RATS ad? I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:42 PM

Scuse, McGrath of Harlow, bad choice of words on my part. I should have used the word, shortage. A fuel shortage. Was not referring in anyway to a environmental subject. Just had to get in line to buy gasoline.

And Kendall, you may hear me criticize Democrats, but you'll never hear me criticize blow jobs! And I don't support the death penalty by hanging either of anybody!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Catrin
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:47 PM

Bill D - I'll swear that's maggie thatcher (spit) on that bike (you know the one inthe picture that comes up on your blue clicky..........


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:41 PM

major story in Washington Post this morning was about Europe/Great Britain fuel crisis... Click here wow! 80% tax...Having gone thru something similar here 20 years ago, I sympathize. We in the USA have relatively cheaper fuel (so far)...but the size of the place means we would REALLY suffer if it went to $3-4 a gallon...I know many people who drive 2-4 hours a day...and some do much more.

Makes you wonder what the world would be like if most of the petroleum reserves were in _____ or _______ or heaven forbid, even _______!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:44 PM

Hey, let's take a reality check here, guys
So, this is supposed to be the most effective popular uprising since...
Since when, in fact? Since the miners' strike, when real livelehoods were very much at risk, when communities were divided and when real people were getting really hurt in many ways?
No, I think not. My impressions (and I'm a cynical old hack who worked for 12 years for the Daily Maill group) is that the Daily Mail Group - aka HM official opposition (because Tory Central Office in Smith Square won't even declare an amnesty on office farts without the say-so of Mail editor Paul Dacre) has decreed that this is how to get at the government.
As a result, many clearly genuinely aggrieved owner-driver hauliers find themselves on picket lines with the worst of the anti-Euro federasts and members of the British National Party, all united in their efforts to embarrass the current government.
God knows, it needs to be embarrassed - but not by the rag-tag-and-bobtaill army of lunatics that is doing its best to bugger up the country.
Sorry about the rant...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:33 PM

I seem to remember that last time there was rationing. This time it's the devil take the hindmost. I've got enough for two days journeys to and from work, past two garages, neither of which is on the priority list. I think teachers are supposed to be essential, after health workers, but there's no way to organise this. "Here's my red pen! Look at these worksheets! These exercise books!"

What really gets me is TB almost quoting MT that protest and demonstration isn't any part of this country's democratic tradition. Tyler, Cade, Trelawny, all those Cornish rebellions, the Pilgrimage of Grace, Chartists, Tolpuddle martyrs, Captain Swing, the Ancient Order of Foresters, Joseph Arch, Pankhurst and Despard - what were they? (short list) - that's what you get for not being brought up in a Labour household.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 04:22 PM

"And I can't think of many things where you don't get a better crack of the whip if you have more money - isn't that where people get their incentives from? "

A lot of the time it's true of folk music, and the culture that has grown out of the revival. And it's true of the Mudcat, as part of that. Yeah, I know you can but posh seats and all the CDs you want and stay in comfier hotels at folk festivals if you've got the loot. And you can buy some beautiful instruments. But basically we're all in the same boat. And money as an incentive to most people learning to play a fiddle or? You must be joking.

And I think it's also true of a hell of a lot of important things that people give their lives to. We believe too much of what we see in the mass media, and the mass media is obsessed with money as the measure of all things. But outside the spotlight real life is going on, and money, while handy enough, (and it's decidedly inconvenient if you've got too much of nothing,but not the be all and end all. When was the last time you found yourself saying "it's only money"?

And DougR - "only had one major fuel crisis in this country." So the hole in the ozone layer, or the Exxon Valdez and so forth don't count as crises...


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