What can't be talked about here?

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:37 PM

The red, red robin was really only a good ol' Democrat. As opposed to Cock Robin--whose real name was...

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Mbo
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:51 AM

Yep, that's it, Doug. His other favorites were "Sidewalks of New York," "Hail Hail The Gang's All Here," and "When The Red Red Robin Come Bob-Bob-Bobbin' Along".

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:13 AM

"Please," MBO, if that's the song I think it is, Please don't forget to include "Please" in the title, Please. "Please Don't Talk About Me when I'm gone." A Mills Brothers hit in the late 40s or early 50s. Your grandfather had good taste. Love that song too. Of course if I'm thinking about a different song ... DougR

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:04 PM

Well, what I use to define those types of songs is to call them "Songs in the Folk Tradition". I would categorize much of Rick's original stuff this way. And one day, after the folk process has had its way with them, they will become folk songs. But they are definitely folks songs. One of the things taught to me by The Folk Fogey, The Resident Curmudgeon, and Art "If I had a hammer, I'd hammer into yer thick Irish skull what folk music" Thieme is what the criteria used for a very long time to determine the difference between folk music, music in the folk tradition, and music influenced by folk. But if you want to figure it out you will have to do a search on these discussions over the last 3 or so years. Take the time, you will enjoy it, and the credits count towards your degree folkology from dear aul Mudcat University and Used Tiple store.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:55 PM

Don't forget the whole Diesel & Dust album by Midnight Oil. Great stuff. Modern music about real issues.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: death by whisky
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:50 PM

Dear Art,to me,

U2...Sunday Bloody Sunday

Stiff little Fingers...Altrnative Ulster

Christy Moore...The Sirens Voice{Traveller Album}

..are all what I would define as modern folk songs,reflecting issues of our time.

Best wishes,D.B.W.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:39 PM

Mine, too.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:38 PM

Don't talk bad about me when I'm gone!

(one of my late grandfather's favorite songs)

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:33 PM

Well, Marty D, the Mudcateers have answered in their (our) inimitable fashion. Life is hardly ever linear here, but sometimes very satisfying, if not pretty, circles do get drawn. And more often the include than keep out.

And ... if you start a thread and find it wandering too far astray, just go back in like ol' Shep and nudge all these little billy goats and nannies back toward the gate you opened.

Welcome to the 'Cat. It's a nut house, but it's our house and the door's open as long as you play nice and don't clobber anyone personally. As far as taboos, there aren't many -- and yet the self-regulating part of the Mudcat (the coolest part, as far as I'm concerned) tends to turn down tempers when they get too hot, and steer away from topics that get too raw or insulting. It's sort of like the definition of pornography -- we can't define it, but we pretty much know it when we see it.

(I also would keep a pretty careful watch on what personal information I give out. Join the 'cat and then you can go to a personal message if you want to get on less-virtual terms with someone.)

Good to have you here.

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:29 PM

Art - I don't think anyone was jumping on you; just some of the peole haven't seen your previous postings. I know *I* certainly respect your position, though I don't have the knowledge or the willpower to adhere to it.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:03 PM

Peter T, you got the only belly laugh outta me today. That was so good. (MMArio, you too, I never knew that was why. Fussy lil critters.)

Marty D, I think they are rewarded, in the long run. You know what keeps surprising me? The number of people who come here and read, but don't post, till something finally grabs then real hard. And then you see how very much they have been getting out of the discussions, without having given any indication they even were here.

I think about those people a lot. I feel a real obligation to remember that they are here just as much as we who post.

Also, I think often that some of what comes across as flip or rude is actually a real attempt to break tension before something gets out of hand. Often these hit the mark dead on, like how Peter T's catbox comment hit me. All the hot air ran right out of me. And what a week it has been to try to think and write and keep from giving into the hot air. (I am sure I failed! *G* It was good to get punctured!!!) Sometimes these miss, badly, or they are dead on to people who know the poster but are a hurt to someone else.

But on a good day, and there are many here, it's a place where a good mind is welcome.

Yours, for instance.

~S~

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:32 PM

Mr. Thieme you make good speeches.
I think you are my new hero and if you ever decide to run for president, why I'd vote for you. Although I can buy your music off the net, I'd rather buy some of your LPs out of your trunk so that I would have a chance to chat with you and learn some things.
Why you taught me everything I know about hobos.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:22 PM

Folks, All I said was that I love this place in spite of the fact that it isn't run the way I prefer --- with an iron fist --- like the Ballad-list. If it does not fit their definitions, the site's moderator will not allow it to be posted. That is the right of those operating ANY site, after all. This site reflects Max's wishes. As I said, that's fine.

Someone asked what my definition of folksongs is!!??

Check out my responses to so many threads exploring that than I can even count. I'd be willing to guess that I've posted way over 100 posts over the last few years on this very topic. Why did I do it? It's certainly not out of disrespect ! It's certainly not to flame anyone here ! I'm simply trying to educate folks who are too young and inflexible to see that they just dopn't have the knowledge to know what folk songs are. So many today think they can change time-tested definitions just to fit what they like best into the old term folksong. I ought to know better, at my age, to quit pissing into the wind. But I'm out of the loop now---off the circuit now---not traveling now. I don't need to be, at least some of the time, politically correct. I don't have to be diplomatic. I'm not looking for gigs any longer. I'm not selling LPs out of my trunk now.

Look, kids, I love ya all. You have much talent. I do enjoy listening to many of you-----especially the ones who strive to emulate the old traditional story songs---the ballads.---Just realize that, in my humble opinion, you have been miseducated !!! IT'S NOT ALL FOLK MUSIC. You owe it to yourselves and your audiences to be able to see the obvious differences and present your songs accordingly. The folk scene should not be a springboard to pop/Nashville success where the term folksinger must be disavowed and tossed in the garbage like hot, rotten potato.

I, for one, refuse to compromise what I strongly feel to be the truth just to be liked. I've never been a people pleaser---except when it was in the interest of my family. I told jokes for years JUST to PUSH the songs I cared so much about a bit further into the spotlight.

Carol need to use the phone to call the doctor so I've gotta leave you and free up the phone. Later.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:13 PM

Kendell: Probably has "Wabash Cannonball" on it, right? That's a real oldie! Or, "Great Speckled Bird!"

Doug

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:37 PM

Hey Doug, I have a cd of Roy Acuff the goes back to 1936

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:11 PM

Yeah Art, I'd love it if the emphasis was on:

1. Old time string music (and traditional bluegrass)

2. Acoustic blues (white and black) from the twenties and thirties.

3. North American and British Isles ballads.

4. technical tips on singing and playing.

5. Intelligent discussions on politics, religion, history, humour, and psychology.

Ahh hell, this is as close as I'm gonna get, so I'll only whine occasionally. It ain't the Utopia I found two years ago, but it's still the next best thing. I've sure made some damned good friends from Mudcat.

Rick

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:01 PM

well, in past posts, I said things similar to what Art posted..maybe not quite so limited..(also wishing that there WERE sites similar to this which catered to the topics which Art & I and a few others dislike)...but I, like Art, recognize that it remains a fine place, even with all the hassles of sorting thru the chaff to get a bit of wheat....So I have 'adapted'...doesn't mean I 'accept'.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:44 PM

Peter, I think you nailed it on the head as far as Country music is concerned.

Art: When I was growing up we referred to what we now call "Country" music as "Hillbilly" music. Then there was "Western" music as typified by Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, Jimmy Wakely, Eddie Dean, and folks like that. If you drew the line at the 1940s, you would be eliminating an awful lot of good Bob Wills, Pee Wee King, Ernest Tubb, Roy Acuff, Eddy Arnold, stuff (as well as many others), in my opinion.

I did think of one topic that cannot be discussed on the Mudcat though: Spaw's underwear. We can talk about his not wearing any of course, but that would be a mighty short thread.

DougR

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:31 PM

mousethief - I love the Chinchilla song. With any luck I will sing it at song circle in Orillia one of these days. LOL!

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:00 PM

y'know why cats do that? it keeps their feet dry!

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:59 AM

The cat part of Mudcat is that there is a certain amount of domestication that goes on here, but it doesn't totally work, which is good. You put down the litter tray, and the cat goes into the box, and deliberately hangs out over the edge and pees outside. Why this is, Heaven knows: part of its perverse charm.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:46 AM

marty, meet a "troll" - someone who is trying to get a rise out of people...an internet form of life that most people could do without. You will notice that when Lepu_rex accussed the anonymous person of not having the guts to sign a name, the next posting was someone signing lepus rex to the same "nazi" comment. ignore them

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:40 AM

richLmo, I guess it answers my question, but Praise, I'm not sure if I agree that serious thoughts ARE rewarded. Mudcatters have been very nice to me so far, so I don't like to make waves, but it often seems that the comments that have nothing to do with the original discussion get immediate responses which make it difficult to return to the original topic. I really appreciate Art's comments. I think he may be a bit restrictive in his boundaries, but it lets me know how he feels about what's talked about on Mudcat.

I can hardly believe that because he treated the subject seriously, someone calls him a 'folk nazi'. Wasn't that done to death on another thread. And didn't enough people say that the term was hurtful?

I'm not complaining, that's just the way I see it.

M

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:30 AM

Art, I'd really like to hear your definition of "Folk Music."

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:46 AM

Correction: they were Hephaestus beetles. The Prometheus Crisis was a different book (these are books not movies, paperbacks bought for a dime at a local bookstore). That was the story of sabotage at a nuclear plant by a disgruntled employee. The meltdown eliminated the west coast although I don't think they noticed-the sixties after all. The last scene is in New York where scientists are watching a nuclear cloud drift across the country and the world preparss for nuclear winter.
DougR - for some reason it was never made into a movie. I do however have two VCR copies of "Day Of The Triffids" and the original book in hardcover. The primary rule of enjoying fiction of this type is to learn to devour an entire volume in one hour or less. Put your brain in neutral and go for it.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Midchuck
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:12 AM

Art, why 1940 in particular? I would accept commercial country music right up to the time they changed the procedure for counting record sales and discovered that Garth Vader was the overall best-selling singer. And the money boys jumped in in a big way, and decreed that, in order to get radio play, a "country" singer had to have a huge hat and a tiny butt (if male) or a cute belly button (if female)and sing recycled 1970's rock. I think that was more like 1985.

Peter.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: GUEST,Repus Lex
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:46 AM

Maybe Art is a 'Folk Nazi'

---Repus Lex

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:42 AM

Wow, amazing entry, guest. Art's entitled to his opinion, just like you are. The thing is, Art has the balls to sign his name, unlike you.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:24 AM

Maybe Art is a 'Folk Nazi'

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 05:55 AM

Art, just curious here, what would be your cut-off date for blues, then?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Lena
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:41 AM

Art Thieme,I'm sorry I was born after the 40es(exactly 21 years ago) and that i was lucky anough to listen to a lot of recent music that made me cry and laugh and that I'd like to share it with everyone I care about.("Phrases like:You're a folk singer/I play classic music/He makes terrible noises' are to be considered incorrect from now on,since all music is folk music"...Blacking)

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Lena
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:34 AM

Mbo had an affair with OASIS?!Let me crash my head against the screen....

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:51 AM

My previous post was not worded correctly I don't think.

It ought to say :

This site would not include ANY pop music, country music after 1940--etc.........

Sorry.

Art

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:44 AM

I do wish there were rules and that Max (whose site this is) would delete all threads, contributions and discussions that weren't about FOLK MUSIC. This would not include ANY pop music, modern country music after 1940, all navel-gazing singer songwriter's touchy-feely songs, all songs more properly termed "self help", all classical and jazz etc. etc. etc. Drums would be banned. Electric instruments played with strident intent that could be seen as obscuring the lyric would be banned.

Max does not see things the way I do. That's O.K. So I just put my two cents in here to state my personal wishes. But if this was my site, things would be different.

All that said, I'll put up with things as they are 'cause it's the best of all possible worlds. And I AM truly happy to be here. Max, thank you. You, sir, and the site you've built, are something else !!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: richlmo
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:35 PM

Guest marty D Does all this answer your question?

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Mbo
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:18 PM

HA HA my mother and sisters are still reveling over my spectacular roach-smashing performance last Saturday. Almost put a hole in the wall, I did...but dang those hightops come in handy!

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Jolly
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:12 PM

Liitle Hawk, if you only have one chinchilla, I hope it doesn't HAVE a sex life! Unless it's cavorting with cockroaches.

Kim

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 08:03 PM

It has seemed to me that whatever has not been possible to discuss effectively here simply has lacked sufficent realtionship to handle it at the time it was raised, and that once the reltionships have been built, those same topics have come back and been are handled well. In that sense, the immediacy of cyber communication usual in many settings seems to need to be tempered here with the realization that we are likely to wish to be here for long enough to learn how to get along, and that it is well that we do so, for many of us will be back tomorrow. If we leave issues dangling as obstacles between us, they make this a lot less fun to come to, and a lot less rewarding as a place to reach one another's best thoughts.

There is also a surprising LACK here of people using terms like IMHO, FWIW, NOI... I think it's a good thing, actually. We all seem to assume these into place and it is safe enough here, despite the occasional blow-torching, to express ourselves.

Finally, it is hard to effectively object to a topic when its relationshoip to the music is clearly spelled out.

It's easy to spot people who just want to drop in and rant or to troll for a ranter to give in.... and to ignore them. This place tends to reward people who are trying to THINK and COMMUNICATE, however, with excellent attention and support.

~S~

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:58 PM

Well, I'm still mourning the death of my pet cockroach, Stumpy, so maybe you all could saysomething POSITIVE about the poor little creatures? *sob*

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Catrin
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:34 PM

Ha Ha MC.

You haven't seen my plywood keyboard have you? Or my hand-knitted microphone. What's that dripping? Oh no, the damned leaky plastic monitor that I bought from a jumble sale for 50p (thats about $1) .............

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:26 PM

It's important to remember that we have members from many nations, so one shouldn't make jokes that rely on unfair stereotypes. For instance, a great many members reside in the British Isles, so such a joke as:

Q: Why don't the British manufacture computers?

A: Because they haven't yet figured out how to make them leak oil.

would be strictly forbidden.

Peter.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Sula
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:17 PM

Someone told me today about a british spider which drinks drool from the corner of your mouth while you're asleep! Rarely if you disturb it, it takes shelter in your mouth. How gross is that? Probably not as bad as chinchilla bedroom etiquette. :-)) Sorry all you just about to go to bed, Sweet dreams, Sulaxxx

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:04 PM

Kendall, Spaw, you're funny.

Sinsull, you paid good money to see a movie like that?

DougR

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:54 PM

Thanks, Ebbie!

O..O
=o=
clickme

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:48 PM

Funny stuff, mousethief! LOL

Ebbie

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:30 PM

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent Ludwig Wittgenstein.

And from the same fella: Everything that can be said can be said clearly.

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: MMario
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:30 PM

heck! I don't know, that was ....uhmmmmmm...28 years ago!

good grief! They could have populated half the world by now!

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:21 PM

And just how are the little Schmachpfieffer-Snodgrasses,M.Mario? Separate cages? No funny stuff, right? We don't want to upset little Hawk. Or are there now multiple Schmachpfieffer-Snodgrass-Schmachpfieffer-Snodgrasses?

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM

Can I still sing about it though? There have been times in my life when a fictional sex life was the best I could muster.

O..O
=o=
clickme

Subject: RE: What can't be talked about here?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:15 PM

Hawkster's chinchilla has no sex life, much to his chagrin. The thing is still pining away over the loss of Major Tom, psychotic astronaut.

Spaw