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BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat?
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Subject: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:03 PM I have read a lot of the threads, since joining, that address various long-standing controversies. Now that I have written the best posts I cold in some of these, myself, I find myself wondering... Have you ever changed your mind about something that was important to you, partly or wholly as a result of being in communication here? And if so, how did that happen? I start with the assumption that we all learn from each other, on the planet, whenever we communicate (meaningfully).... I'm asking about something deeper than learning, where you realized you might need to change your position on something. For me, it was that one day, after lots of viewpoints had flown past me, it finally made sense to me why people get so mad about BS here, and an understanding that there was something very precious I had not seen at all, that could be lost. (I am not inviting fresh debate on that, although I suppose that's ineveitable.) But have you ever changed your mind or, as we say in church somtimes, found "a better heart" as a result of the time you've spent at the Mudcat? I'd welcome e-mails if you don't want to say, here. (PMs seem to be not working too good for me right now.) ~Susan~ motormice@hotmail.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: CarolC Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:08 PM Yes....I mean, no.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Naemanson Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:09 PM Yeah, Praise, I guess I have. Up till the folk Nazi thread I was using ****Nazi without giving it too much thought. the only time I watched my tongue was around my Jewish friends. That thread made me realize how sensitive people are to that and I will not use that word combination again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:17 PM I can't say I've changed my mind on any of my basic positions on things. However, it has greatly broadened my understanding and interest in many areas, and it certainly has served to broaden my musical interests. Come to think of it, I guess Mick has convinced me to vote for Gore instead of Nader. Does that count? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Mbo Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:24 PM Not really, no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: simon-pierre Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:46 PM I'm with Praise for the BS thing, but there wasn't other discussions that really changed my mind. But I'm glad to hear what others are thinking. Joe, you should vote for Nader instead of Gore. SP, waiting for results... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Sandy Paton Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:51 PM Stick with the Big Mick, Joe. He's right! The Old Man |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Mooh Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM Don't think so. But the Cafe is enforcing an open mind here, even if I resist it sometimes. Hopefully this makes me more tolerant, even if my mind isn't changed. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: campfire Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:10 PM I'm not sure I've ever completely changed my mind on anything "near and dear", but I have grown in appreciation for another viewpoint on many topics. campfire |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Escamillo Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:33 PM In general, it was an enrichment experience where I learnt a lot, and broadened my vision of folk and traditional, which I confess, was very poor, and continues to be, but improving rapidly. In particular, one case I recall was when I realized that other's thoughts about a particular question are not simply his/her beleifs, but they could probably be a part of the person's KNOWLEDGE, in other words, I should not assume that his/her opinions are blindly based upon faith, because they could be based upon facts that I don't see. It's a part of the art of tolerance which should not be forgotten. The others should also learn to not accuse me to be close-minded, perhaps they are not giving sufficiently strong arguments for their opinions. I've also learnt many things from Spaw besides music, but cannot tell you. Un abrazo - Andrés
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: kendall Date: 13 Sep 00 - 10:58 PM A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: CamiSu Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:02 PM Not so much changed my mind as alerted me to things I didn't know or hadn't given much thought to. Perhaps prodded me to stick my neck out a bit more as I had not been in the habit of saying much to people who were intolerant. I begin to see how much it hurts people who get hit by words I did nothing to stop, even though I knew I did not agree with them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: The Shambles Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:53 AM Yes.......... In this thread Paropy good or bad?. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: The Shambles Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:57 AM Paropy sounds like a very nasty complaint indeed, certainly bad..... Parody, it should have been. But no I've changed my mind again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Lena Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:09 AM As I'm in an age in which you strongly believe in your opinions and you actually change them every day without noticing because you're building yourself up,I couldn't track exactly how and when that happened,but I'm sure the mudcat played its part more than a time.It helped me a lot emotionally,everytime my feelings were turned off(it happens very often,in this flat useless months...)something from some posting would suddenly stir me up again.Or bring back my love for human beings.Or train me to sit and 'listen'(now,I know that 'Father and Son 'from Cat Stevens wouldn't be appropriate,but....)And it's our chance to communicate.I f we were all in a room,talking loud and fighting for our turn to speak,we wouldn'express ourselves so openly.And about the xxxxnazi thread...despite the polemic position I took,I now know that I would never abuse certain words/memories. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: GeorgeH Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:35 AM I'm with Joe and CamiSue . . the discussions have not changed my underlying views on anything important, but have widened my understanding, insight and knowledge on many occasions. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:19 AM I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:37 AM Well, I guess its like Arlo said, "There's so much to ponder...and not much worth pondering." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:11 PM I love these answers. Keep it coming. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM I used to think I couldn't sing, or that if I thought I could I was just fooling myself. But since singing with some of you and asking for feedback, I now believe that I can actually sing. Sometimes, at least... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Ebbie Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:30 PM Thanks for this thread, Praise. There's a degree of trust- of love and caring- in Mudcat that is distilled in the above posts. And yes, I believe I am learning new things every day- not necessarily to change my own mind but to broaden it and to accept new elements into the equation. I am in awe of the mind and spirit of many mudcatters... Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Steve Latimer Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:40 PM Before I found the 'Cat i thought I knew a lot about many kinds of music. I now realize I'm a neophyte. (With apologies to Bonnie) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Bill D Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:09 PM well, I am reminded of one of my 5 or 6 all time favorite Peanuts cartoons... Luck is standing in front of Charlie Brown, demanding..."Change your mind!" 2nd panel..louder.."Change your MIND!" 3rd panel..screaming"CHANGE YOUR MIND, I SAY!" 4th panel..Lucy, waking away muttering.."I wonder why it's so hard to get people to change their minds" ....just a thought |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Bill D Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:10 PM *sigh*..that's Lucy, of course |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: DougR Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:20 PM No. I've had some interesting insightful exchanges with lots of folks I respect though. I guess I really wouldn't expect that there would be much mind-changing in forums like this. Musically, I can't think of anything that would require mind-changing and, most of the BS threads offer a lot to talk and argue about, but I doubt there is much mind-changing going on. I sense that Kendall may be weakening a it though. :>)
DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:25 PM Here's a tip Doug...........Never change your mind and try to corect a mistake after hitting submit.(:<)) Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: DougR Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:25 PM Sorry. But you get my point, I'm sure. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Jim Dixon Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:33 PM Yes, as a matter of fact, after being told to "go to a library and check out a sense of humor" I have subjected the "Cat's in the Kettle" song to a rigorous textual analysis and I have come to the conclusion that it is, in fact funny. Ha ha. Look at me grin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:38 PM It all depends what you mean by "change your mind". I've found myself realising that an issue is more complicated than I thought, and that there are more than two points of view in a debate, and the one I hold isn't exactly what I thought it was. It clarifies where the differences lie.. and helps us understand more clearly why it is we hold the views we do hold.
What changes your mind isn't arguments, but real life experiences. These can include coming in contact with people you learn to recognise as having some kind of wisdom, and finding that they have a different set of opinions to yourself. That can happen on the Mudcat. That's one reason BS is valuable. And of course it can happen in the more musical threads, like when someone says something that nmakes you have another look and liusten to something you'd dismissed previously, and your mind really can be changed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: L R Mole Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:44 PM Well...after suffering with Middle-Aged Teachers' Syndrome(during which the stricken one begins to be convinced no one else knows anything) I have to thank the Cat and Catters for reminding me that LOTS of people are smarter/more talented/better informed than I can ever hope to be. So my mind wasn't so much changed as healed.Or back on the way to where it needs to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: SINSULL Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:07 PM I can't say that my mind has been changed on any critical issues but without a doubt I have a greater respect for the "other side" on everything from religion to world politics. Mudcat provides a generally tolerant atmosphere and attracts people who are amazingly well informed. This is the first place IN MY LIFE where I have ever been exposed to a rational discussion (and some irrational) on the Orange side of the Ireland "troubles". Re: Music. I now keep an ongoing list of people and recordings recommended on Mudcat and watch out for them at flea markets, ebay, etc. How did I get through the 60s and 70s in NYC and not know Patrick Sky? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Jim the Bart Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:11 PM I read somewhere that once a mind has been stretched it can never resume the same shape that it once had. I think this is true. I therefore have to humbly disagree with my esteemed cat-mates who say their mind wasn't changed. Maybe your opinion on something remained as it was, but your mind. . .? I realize that this seems like mere semantics, but I think there is a kernel (a mere morsel) of food for thought in that very real difference. At times, it is tempting to speak or write about a subject in absolute terms, thinking that your current opinion on said subject is impervious to argument and disputation. But minds THAT ARE ALIVE do change, ever so subtly, as new information is presented, ingested and processed. And in a changing mind anything is possible, even the erosion of a presumably unassailable position on a subject. That's one of the reasons I like to read as many thread postings as possible, even on subjects with which I have little interest. This is an extremely literate, intelligent, intuitive, diverse, interesting group which shares at least one important, basic characteristic - our appreciation and love for folk music (whatever the hell that is). I never know which thread or which poster is going to stretch my mind wa-a-a-y out of shape. Or just enough to get some new thought process going. If you want a specific: the discussion on Capital Punishment led to the end of my fence-sitting and my declaration that I'm ag'in it! Bart-the-ever-changing |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:13 PM I don't know how that happened Sins......(:<)) Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Rick Fielding Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:38 PM Excellent question Susan. I posed the same one about a year ago and was somewhat disappointed that virtually no one had changed any of their positions after being exposed to this microcosm of a community. There are several things that I see differently now than I did when I joined Mudcat. 1. My position on gun ownership has changed since I've been here. I live in a very safe area, am a large strong guy with a very well developed sense of self-protection. Were I in a more vulnerable situation I'd probably want to arm myself for protection, as I've seen how scared the police have become to get involved in dangerous situations. I no longer feel I have the right to tell others that they should not be able to protect themselves. This comes from reading so many passionate posts from Mudcatters. 2. I once thought I had intelligent opinions on a solution to the "Irish troubles". I never realized just how deep and angry the feelings on each side are. There IS no solution that won't end in continued violence. 3. I'm more tolerant of deeply religious people. Still don't relate to it, but I wouldn't make the same "Jehova's Witness joke" I made two years ago. Had no idea how religious so many Americans are. Once again, influenced by Mudcat. 4. I was truly naive about "flaming". Not anymore. I now realize that those kids in school who loved to "bully", have found an adult medium to carry it on. Sadly this also comes from Mudcat. 5. It's taken Mudcat to show me that a part of me "needs" a community. Don't think I realized that before. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Biskit Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:21 PM The Mud cat hasn't changed the way I think about issues that are important,but perhaps the quality of the thinking In as much as realizing the way that other people think about these issues is just as important to them as the way I think is important to me.And the passion with which these people believe.Wheter or not their opinion sways my thinking or not is n't the important thing here.But the opportunity(sp)for different ideas about the same subject, and being open to hearing these ideas,(not neccisarily agreeing with them)But listining is a maturing experiance that has made me realize that I/we should be as protective of their opinions as we are of our own. I Think,Therefore I am,....I Think Peace,-Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: DougR Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:27 PM Thanks Spaw, you spotted the problem right off! I tried to make some changes after hitting the submit thingy. Never again! Amen, Bartholmew! And just what the hell IS folk music any how? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:05 PM This is exactly the flexible and forthcoming discussion I hoped could occur from my clumsy question. I keep thinking of it as The Mudcat Mind Exchange-- fresh mind, here at the Cat. Not a trade-in. A carwash. The related question, and I guess I can suggest a direction for thread creepage since I started this one, would be what some of you have already alluded to-- the way Mudcat has influenced you so as to be more [something] out there in your 3D life. I know my relationships in the fleshworld are better, more open, more loving, more.... ME in them than had been the case before I came reeling in through the door here one day, worn out from trying to make a difference in the Red Cross. At the same time, there is LESS ME in these same relationships, in a good way. I think I didn't get a better heart here so much as a better way of using it? I treasure you all; everything I read here stretches the envelope I carry the world in. And like minds and hearts, envelopes seem only to be able to grow once the stretching begins. I especially appreciate the dear friends I have made among those of you who took the time to get to know me, past whatever stereotypes I may have sailed in under. Some of you had to change your minds a bit to do that, and I am not unaware of that when I ask these questions. You've set me a good example. I change for knowing you, too. Sometimes you've been far braver about it than I. ~Susan~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Biskit Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:11 PM Well as "Bob" once put it,(Those not busy being born, Are busy dyyyying) Peace-Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Art Thieme Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:48 PM Well said--everyone. For me, it's about agreeing to disagree. My marriage is based on it. And loving along with and in spite of the differences. Respect - always. I'll always be thankful for a place to connect with somewhat like-minded people-----a place where I can work out my thoughts before I post. (I can't do that in real life.) And I still manage shoot from the lip more often than not. Right now, my email quits after three. There are 35 lined up that won't come in. Each time I pull 'em down, the same 3 show up. Then I delete 'em. It's like Groundhog Day all over again---to paraphrase the film and Yolgi Berra. Makes me want to change my mind about bothering with this computer thing I waste so much time on. I think I will now read a book. ;-) Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Marion Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:32 PM I've stopped referring to the music by Dylan, Cohen, Stan Rogers and so forth as folk and started calling it neo-folk. I have become much more reticent about singing my original songs, because now I think people may be muttering "another girl singing her diary". Marion |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Art Thieme Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:38 PM I think that lately it became "bad" to change your mind when R. Limbaugh began lambasting the prez for having the STRENGTH (as I saw it) to change his mind every so often. He called it "waffling" of being "wishy-washy" or "indecisive" or whatever. Often it was just seeing what was doable---and going with what could be got. It was being a realist. And tangentially, it's why politics is so looked down upon in these times when winning decisively is everything and a tie is seen as a loss as bad as death. President Geo. Bush, as bush league as I think he was/is, learned this when he left the Middle East before beheading Sadam. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Mbo Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:44 PM Marion--sing your songs, and don't bother about what others may or may not be thinking. It's the joy you take in playing them that is the reward, not how people feel about them. "I'm free to be whatever I, whatever I choose and I can sing the blues if I want." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Rick Fielding Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:48 PM One of my Dad's favourite sayings was "a wise man changes his mind many times, a fool, never". In this day and age the evidence in front of us changes constantly. The only thing I'll never change my "old fogey" opinion on, is that to enjoy (and sing or play)folk music, you've gotta invest time and curiosity in it. Without the investment, it's just another pop song. On the other hand, another of my Dad's great beliefs was that a man should "spend his last dime on a shoeshine (rather than something like a coffee) and learn to play a good game of golf"! He WAS a salesman though. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Art Thieme Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:54 PM Rick, If I had my druthers, I'd spend it on Scotch. Laphraoig prferably (but I might change my mind.) Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: GUEST,electra Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:13 PM I wear more green, my left is better than my right, all Irish music is not annoying, the guitar is not the only instrument in folk music. I open myself more to receive friendship and close myself more to keep away the night terrors. I don't tell or listen to ethnic jokes of any kind. I'm more receptive to hearing someone's else's religious or political bent, without being threatened. The above are how I have changed. The following are definitions of what I have learnt: The Good. di·a·logue or di·a·log (d-lôg, -lg) An exchange of ideas or opinions: achieving constructive dialogue with all political elements. friend·ship (frndshp) The quality or condition of being friends. com·mu·ni·ty (k-myn-t) A group of people having common interests: Similarity or identity: a community of interests. Sharing, participation, and fellowship. humility Humility consists in rating our claims low, in being willing to waive our rights, and take a lower place than might be our due. It does not require of us to underrate ourselves. The Ugly. Ju·das (jds) One who betrays another under the guise of friendship. be·trayal (b-tr) To be false or disloyal to: betrayed by a friend |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: MK Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:22 PM I've learned much about interpersonal relationships, tolerance and humility, and much about myself as a result of being here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Guy Wolff Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:34 PM I never wanted to ,or cared to learn how to spell till I found no-one could understand a word I was writing. I still cant spell but now at least I feel bad about it...Realy though, I have gotten a ton of mind twisters here and wakeup calls.. Lots of thanks to all , Guy Duplicate posting was deleted by a Joe-clone |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: GUEST,Twinkletoes Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:46 PM A VOTE FOR NADER IS A VOTE FOR NADER. I'M VOTING FOR NADER, AND IT'S NOT A VOTE FOR BUSH OR GORE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: CamiSu Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:53 AM OK Bart. You're right, and since I don't really consider a day complete if I don't learn SOMETHING, my mind has changed much since coming to Mudcat. (Of course it changes in face to face conversations, too, then. thanks all. While I know flamers exist, it is easier to ignore them on the 'Cat than when they flame you to your face. Hence I consider this place a very safe place to express myself. Now I just gotta get set up for HearMe. Cami Su |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Jeri Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:16 AM If mind-changing means coming to believe something opposite what I formerly believed, although it has happened in my life, I don't recall that happening here. If it means modifying my opinions, then yes, it has happened here, and other places on the net. Whenever someone realizes that "I don't understand, would you explain" is not a rhetorical question, or talks about why they believe what they do, I learn something. The world becomes less black and white, more gray. In "real life," when you start a conversation about a contoversial subject, it's quite likely everyone more or less agrees with you, because you discuss these things with your friends. If you discuss them with strangers, you often wind up yelling and calling each other names. We have a fairly wide range of opinions on any issue here, and folks normally take the time to explain their opinions. I've learned much from those discussions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:33 AM "There IS no solution that won't end in continued violence" Hardly one of your more 'intelligent opinions', Rick. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Naemanson Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:31 PM I was going to post a highly intelligent and sensitive reposnse to what has been written so far but I have changed my mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:43 PM In Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, Spock, when asked if he would change his mind about a certain matter, replied "Is there something wrong with the one I have?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Little Neophyte Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:39 PM I'm not sure if this place has changed my mind as much as opened me to the reality of the vastness in perspectives. Like Guy, I have to take my spelling more seriously if I want others to understand what I am trying to say. I have also become more sensitive to others so that how I word things does not offend. Its cheap therapy, thats for sure! I've learned so much about myself by observing how I react to threads, postings and certain Mudcatters. It is also a very safe place for me to explore community. Something I have never done before. Bonnie
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: DougR Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:43 PM Way to go, Twinkletoes! :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Bill D Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:18 PM several people HAVE modified their views about folk music since hearing all the arguments on both sides...others have just become more adamant that they don't have to...I guess it all balances out |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: GUEST,Buber Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:46 PM Reading through the thread on Nazis, I've come to the conclusion that my previous opinion about the Nazis and the Jews was wrong. I am most grateful to Little Hawk for helping me to see how wrong-headed I was. I used to think that the Nazis were evil murderers responsible for the worst mass murder in human history. From reading Little Hawk's essay, I now know that the Nazis cannot be held responsible for the mass murders they committed. I learned from Little Hawk that Hitler and his fellow Nazis did not know that they were committing evil. They thought they had to protect society from the Jews. Since the Nazis thought they were acting for the public good, they cannot have been guilty of crime. I also learned from Little Hawk that the Jews have committed genocide throughout history. I am very ashamed to admit that I used to think that Hitler and his fellow Nazis were horrible monsters. I thought that only monsters could commit mass genocide on such a scale. From Little Hawk I learned how wrong I was. From Little Hawk I learned that the Jews and the Nazis are equal. So I thank Little Hawk for teaching me that must afford the Nazis the same respect that I've had for people who have refrained from genocidal mass murder. Thank you Little Hawk for showing me how wrong I was in holding the Nazis in contempt. So what if they murdered my grandparents, three of my aunts and four of my uncles. So what if I never had any cousins because all of my aunts and uncles died as children at Auschwitz. Thank you Little Hawk for allowing me to move on and to embrace the Nazis as my own. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:59 PM I got a nice e-mail on this topic too. This has been a great discussion; it shows how we actually tick, in several important respects, as human beings. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: DougR Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:07 PM I got to think, Praise, that your post hit the Mudcat site before the previous one did. I've got to read Little Hawk's message. I just scanned it originally, but it has caused so much comment, I have to read it more carefully. I don't believe, for a minute, however that Little Hawk sympathizes with the Nazi point of view. Little Hawk and I are not on the same track politically at all, but I think folks are reading something into his message he didn't intend. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Rick Fielding Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:22 PM Well Brendy, short of going toe-to-toe (on Mudcat) with the folks who live the situation everyday, my little brain can't come up with an answer that would make things peaceable. Good thing I don't participate in those threads (other than reading them). I'd stay out of Arab-Israeli ones as well (if there were any). Now Canada-Quebec independence issues? Since I'm pro-Canadian, but grew up in Quebec....those I'd participate in. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:07 PM "...short of going toe-to-toe (on Mudcat) with the folks who live the situation everyday, my little brain can't come up with an answer that would make things peaceable." So your 'little brain' comes up with 'answers' like "There IS no solution that won't end in continued violence" That is not an answer, Rick. That is a piece of worthless 'gutter-press' type rhetoric, that does nothing but show the shallowness of some people. There is a solution, Rick. But because you don't know, that doesn't mean there isn't one, and were I to make un-informed, sweeping statements showing a bias about Canadian affairs, I would expect you to be somewhere in the firing party, to 'bully' and 'harass', or whatever it is people do these days that falls under those categories.. Discuss Ireland, by all means. What's stopping you? If that is the case, then you are narrow-minded, and any discussion would prove fruitless. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Lepus Rex Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:38 PM Feeling a little hostile, Brendy? ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Sep 00 - 07:11 PM That was a grossly unfair twisting of what Little Hawk wrote. That needs to be said quickly, because this kind of anonymous libel can stick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:36 PM I thought this thread might be a bad idea, but I changed my mind. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 01 Oct 00 - 10:03 AM Little Hawk and others here have changed my view of things a few times. And on the music front, Mudcatters have corrected my misconceptions. On the other hand, on the Irish Question I know that all factions will come round to my own thoughtful and considered approach - a capitulation that will probably be led by my fun-loving friend Brendy *BG* An aside to Buber: don't know what Little Hawk said to provoke all that, but for my own part I rather fear that if I had had the misfortune to be born in another time, another place, I too could have been seduced by Hitler. I am sure that plenty people better than me actually were. We should not fear National Socialism so much as the conditions that spawned it.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: CamiSu Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:24 AM Fionn This is truly a bit scary, as I have just had a lon conversation with my AFS son, who comes from the part of Austria where Heider is so strong, and he truly believes that the neo-nazis are right in wanting the Turks out of Austria and Germany. When I point out that these people have been several generations in these counrties, he says doesn't matter. He also doesn't seem to feel that the 'final solution' was all that wrong. I'm not sure I DO have the patience to work with this child. I want to shake him 'til he admits that ALL people have their value and intelligence, and should be respected for those reasons. He says it is NORMAL to harass Turks in Germany! AND that it is normal to feel as he does! DO WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS ALL AGAIN? and again and again? I'm afeared that we won't see the minds that truly need to be changed here on the 'cat. The minds that come here are already cracked open, the closed ones go to sites that make them comfortable... I know this should probably have been elsewhere, (like my exchange student thread), but Fionn just triggered my total frustration, and I need to rant so I can go back and try to love the hell OUT of this kid.... Cami Su |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Oct 00 - 11:24 AM CamiSu, Our son (Hardi's son, my stepson) said to me one evening, in a quite demonic and fully committed voice, "I pray for your death on a nightly basis!" Knowing whatever you know of me, imagine how that must have sounded to me in my kitchen, up close, near the knife drawer... or echoing in my thoughts late at night on my side of the closed but not locked bedroom door, in a house full of most any dangerous implement you can imagine. Well... but instead of those thoughts, God gave me the grace to take all that relaxedly, despite layer after layer of possible fear, anger, and concern... and over time, I think God and I DID love hell... out... of... him. And out of my own son, the same age, his best friend, caught up in the negativity just as much, not having said this in words but having looked it at us many, many times-- the two of them allies in the worst but also good allies as they built good lives for themselves. I pray His grace for you in this, that whatever will most powerfully reach this person, does reach him, and that whatever part you can best play in it, you play excellently. And I'm here. I heard you. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: kendall Date: 02 Oct 00 - 02:17 PM Getting back to the original thought for this thread, When I first found this site, I thought, "Oh boy, another bunch of hard core folkies. You know, the kind that all go out and buy the complete collection of Child Ballads so they can impress other folkies?" I thought, "This is no place for me, I have no idea what the hell they are talking about, who is Neal Young anyway?" etc etc. Well...things have changed. I'm now accepted by the group, and, some of you, have had the good sense to order my tape! Your taste in music is exceeded only by your high IQ!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 02 Oct 00 - 11:12 PM I haven't had any great revelations that turned my opinions upside-down,but I feel that many of my views and values have been taught to me,or absorbed, from friends,family,teachers,television,music.I have usually felt a strong intuition about what is right in a given situation,but I have rarely stopped to reason out the whys. Gun control is a good example.I had formed opinions that I felt strongly about,but had never had the mettle of my beliefs tested directly by those who had opposing opinions.Through arguments on Ireland,guns,prejudice,I have had to fight the urge to take the emotionally self-righteous path that declares "everyone knows what you say is wrong!" I thank people like Don Meixner,Brendy,little Hawk,and especially McGrath of Harlow, for challenging me in an open,heartfelt,but respectful way that often made me angry at first,but ultimately made me question my beliefs to see whether they were honest,and whether they were justified. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: WyoWoman Date: 03 Oct 00 - 01:44 AM I used to want to play the bodhran. ww |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: JulieF Date: 03 Oct 00 - 10:10 AM I have always wanted to think of myself as having an truely open mind but I acknowledge that I am in truth as stubborn as hell and tend to wait for people to convince me. I had a moment of revalation on a Management course that I went on a few years ago. They used the film - 12 Angry Men to show different Management styles. eg People focused, task focused , beaurocratic etc. In the film - the accountant had to be convinced by the evidence presented by someone else, but when he was , he whole heartedly admitted he was wrong. I suddenly realised that that was me. Absolutly convinced of most of what I know but if you convince me that I'm wrong I won't sulk ( unless you're a member of the family.) I have not had that experience yet on the Mudcat - but I recon it may happen. I certainly have some of my horizons broadened and sometimed I decide not to post just to see what other people say first. All the best Julie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:01 PM Julie, I too was on a management course that used 12 Amgry Men. What a cracking good film to pick by the way, and surprisingly quite a good course. I didn't change my ways because of it, but should have done. With hindsight the warning signs were unmistakable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: Troll Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:14 PM I've learned that there are still a few nice people in the world. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: DougR Date: 04 Oct 00 - 01:41 AM I've been thinking a lot about this thread, and finally came up with the conclusion that it shouldn't be expected that minds will be changed. It seems to me the majority of Mudcatters think pretty much alike. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: JulieF Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:29 AM Fionn Did you ever work for British Steel or has this course spread further? I didn't change either but I do recognise that I do this as does all my family. Have you every seen the Woody Allen Film Radio Days where the parents argue about which is the better ocean ? I have no preferences on that one but we did have a year long "discussion" on what was the first record played on Radio 1. Julie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: mousethief Date: 04 Oct 00 - 12:42 PM Oh DougR. You only say that because you're a Republican. (grins)
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: DougR Date: 04 Oct 00 - 12:49 PM Nope, Mousethief, I say that because I believe it! :>) There are some threads with religious themes, and threads related to the occult, or previous life experiences, non-provable subjects mostly, where there is some difference of opinion but by and large, I think the majority of Mudcatters think pretty much alike. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: GUEST Date: 04 Oct 00 - 12:51 PM I AM the minority. --Matt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: John Hardly Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:08 PM Many of the more controversy-based threads have forced me to ask introspectively, WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO ME? SEEKING THE TRUTH? BEING RIGHT? BEING COMFORTABLE? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mind-Changing at Mudcat? From: DougR Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:23 PM John Hardly: I'm not sure what you mean by "being comfortable." If it means what it COULD mean, that posting something that was out of sync with the majority opinion in a thread would make you uncomfortable, or that you would hesitate to do so because of probably backlash, then I can't relate to that. I would feel most uncomfortable posting an opinion to a thread on a controversial subject that didn't represent my own point of view, whether it supported the majority view, or the minority. Is that what you mean by "being comfortable?" DougR |