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Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas
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Subject: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:40 PM For those of in the Dallas / Fort worth area, well, those of us who care, anyway, the Blarney Brothers cd release party for their new cd, "Lager than Life", will be at Poor David's pub on Lower Greenville in Dallas this Saturday night. Doors open at eight p.m. There is a $6 cover charge. They will of course be performing. It's sure to be great fun and a good show. Here is a link to Poor David's website for those who may need directions: Click here Hope to see you all there! -Branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:30 PM Ah - the Blarney's show will be great fun, to be sure. And if ya haven't been to Poor David's, ya might wanna go just to see one the nation's best and oldest acoustic music venues! It's decor is (ahem) rustic, spartan, but its sound system is excellent! The bar's full, and the music's great! And the Blarney Brothers are just plain old wonderful fun! 'tis is a show not to miss, if ya can make it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Barbara Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:57 PM And at the risk of renewing the warfare, ask them for the words to "Mrs. St**n don't rent to G*****s", while you're at it. I would still like to see them. Here. Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:05 PM I will, Barbara. Incidentally, the new album will include that song. (and I sincerely hope to avoid the warfare.) how silly. -Branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 04:37 PM - Incoming!! - B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 04:58 PM Here comes the second volvo . . . From Webster's Dictionary: silly -- adj. 1. Exhibiting a lack of good sense; stupid. 2. Frivolous. 3. Semiconscious; dazed. Somehow, the comment 'how silly' seems more aptly applied to those who ignore the prejudice, genocide, murder, rape, discrimination and abuse that the Travelling People have had to endure, and endure to this day, in this world. And Branwen, if you think that tossing off such a phrase doesn't hurt as deeply and as strongly as listening to 'Mrs. Stein Doesn't Rent To Gypsies Anymore', you are very mistaken; perhaps even silly. -- Aine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 15 Sep 00 - 05:13 PM oh, no, not again..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 05:37 PM Bet you a few gypsies and jews have heard those words spoken a couple of times, Bran And a few pregnant wommen who hate getting their tummies pushed, as well, I'd imagine! B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 15 Sep 00 - 05:41 PM Ok... I'm really not inclined to get into this debate again. It's nothing personal, and I'd rather it not be. The Blarney Brothers are good friends of mine, and the purpose of this thread was simply to let those in the area know about their upcoming CD release party. I'd prefer that this thread not turn into another discussion / debate on whether or not one tune that they do is or is not bigoted / racist, etc. I have no intention of getting involved in such a discussion again, as it is apparent to me that there are simply differing opinions on the subject, none of which are likely to be changed by its further discussion. -Branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 06:40 PM Dear Branwen, Once more, for the record, I am not saying a word against the Blarney Brothers. I don't know them, so I will assume that they are singing this particular song because they are ignorant of the issues with which the Travellers have to deal. As I have said before, they are very talented, and I wish them well. However, I am deeply saddened by the inclusion of this song on their CD. For now this band will not only promote the prejudices in this song in their personal appearances; but, they will spread its poisin even further with this disc. It is, however, this particular song, and its ilk, that I will continue to say many words against. And Branwen, it is personal, deeply personal. The poet Rainer Maria Rilke wrote, 'Our fears are like dragons guarding our most precious treasures.' Well, I have released the dragon that was guarding one of my most precious treasures -- that of my identity. And although you may want to lift your skirts and walk over the bodies of generations of my people, I swear to God that I will be here to pull your face down close to their bones, so that you will never forget them. -- Aine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 15 Sep 00 - 06:42 PM like I said, I'm not getting into this again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 06:58 PM Metaphysically speaking, dear Branwen, you may turn away from me; but, one of my brothers or sisters will be there in front of you. Release the dragons that guard your compassion and empathy, and you will be free. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Mbo Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:04 PM I know how you feel, Branwen. Read this piece of hell I caught a while back.--Mr.Lincoln. --Matt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:15 PM "Minds are like parachutes...they only function when open." I have read through the entire first thread about this issue and this one, too. First, Joe, I was thoroughly shocked at your first posting in the other thread when you told Larry to "shut up." I don't recall anyone using those words on here before and they seemed very offensive and presumptive to me. Larry has a history here of posting very knowledgable, first-hand experience with prejudice, esp. about the Roma people. I, for one, afford him a great deal of respect, as I do you, Joe. That just wasn't up to your usual standard of decorum. I understand your position on wanting to know the song before commenting. I am in agreement with Aine, Larry, and others that the few words we had, and title, said enough that I know I would not want to read nor hear the song. Branwen, I understand that you do not want to enter into any more discussion on the subject. Good luck to your friends on the new CD, but, I also agree with Aine on the unfortunate decision to include that song. When songs like that are funny, it is always at someone else's expense. I heard one today, on NPR, about 80 hillbillies in a haunted house. It sounded funny, but when I really listened to the words it was horrible and very stereotypical. I think that is the main problem with songs like these. They reinforce the stereotypes. Perhaps I read it wrong, but it seemed someone, in the other thread, made light of the song saying the Roma had trashed the woman's house, as though it was to be expected, since they were, after all, "Gypsies." (I could almost see the shoulder shrug.)That is a glaring example of why these types of songs should not be encouraged. Aine, Nyees Tuka (thank you), for "coming out"; it was a brave thing to do and I am proud to call you my sister. While I don't know if we have any Roma blood in my family, it is something I have always identified with, and considering how much of our family ancestry is wrapped up in Scotland, I'd say there is a fair chance I come by it honestly. Perhaps in a past life, eh? For anyone who is interested and who may have missed it the first time round, please read this thread, Song Appropriateness. While it started out about Irish songs, it became a memorable discussion on songs overall, if my memeory serves. Other threads which may be of interest, which you can find in the super search, include: "Xenophobia", and, "Coon Songs - Your Thoughts on Them." Whenever someone chooses to perpetuate sterotypes through these types of songs, a whole group of people pay the price in continued oppression and prejudice. There are so many good songs out there, I hope more people will choose them instead. Lash Drom (good road) to you all, kat
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Mbo Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:18 PM Well, you know us redhead..we have severe attitude problems and blow up over the least little thing! :-| |
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Subject: Down With the Thought Police From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:22 PM Well, I expect the lyrics to be posted, and I refreshed the Doesn't Rent to Gypsies request thread. If Larry or anybody else tries to intimidate people into not posting the lyrics, I will become extremely angry. My remark in the other thread is the one and only time I have told somebody to shut up in this Forum, and I think my remark was appropriate. Somebody requested lyrics to a song so they could find out what it was all about, and Larry and others jumped all over the requester (not that Larry had ever heard the song or seen the lyrics himself). I call that censorship by intimidation, and I think it's wrong. The same thing went on in the "Folk Nazi" thread. The poor person who posted the term meant no harm at all, and yet he got battered with two long threads of criticism. This is supposed to be an open forum, a place where people can free to express ideas. I sympathize with oppressed people, whoever and wherever they are. However, no matter how righteous your cause is, you still have no right to suppress ideas here by bullying people into silence. We don't need Thought Police. We can think things out for ourselves. So, shut up, already, and let somebody post the damn lyrics so we can see for ourselves. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM I know the song Joe, remember? Áine as well, I recall B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:39 PM um.... if you guys are going to do this, could you start a new thread or at least do it in the old one? Preferably start a new thread.... I think that considering that neither this thread or the original were intended for discussion of bigotry and / or racism in music or in a particular song, a new thread might be in order, especially considering that there are probably a lot of other people who would be interested in discussing this subject, not just in the case of this song, but in regard to all music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:47 PM I am not able to recognise that right of free speech so that it be used to stereotype or ridicule anybody, Joe, and you don't know me for being one of the most politically correct, around here, but I, as an Irishman, would consider it an act of treason to sing a song that glorifies, or continues to perpetuate, suspicion and harassment of a weaker minority. I don't care WHAT country they come from, or what religion they are!! If I go to see you play, and you perpuate that myth... I'm outta there, quicker than a skitter through a goat's ass, and I'll head off to some blues joint, where there's none of that kind of crap. If there is one thing I despise about elements of the right-wing, it's how extremely cruel they can be. I hold no truck with right-wing thought, at the best of times, but there are those among them who want to keep that ole pot a-stirrin'. So if actually your gripe is that the lyrics need to be in public view, to sasisfy the need you have to fill that criterion of free-speech, well, sure, Joe, all I can say is that kind of 'free-speech' can just go in the bucket. The reason the world is in the state it is in, is because people have to keep shoving the past down others' throats, and telling them never to forget it. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:06 PM Dear Joe, For the life of me, I can't see how you can make the statement This is supposed to be an open forum, a place where people can free to express ideas" and then turn around and say "So, shut up, already". It sure looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I haven't even read the 'folk nazi' thread, so I believe that you're mixing your apples and oranges on that one. I agree wholeheartedly that none of us here on the Mudcat should bully anyone into silence -- and that includes yourself. I haven't told anyone on this thread or the other thread to be silent. I have expressed my ideas about this song, which I do know, and I never told anyone not to post the lyrics. If you'll read the other thread, I even thanked the original poster for requesting the lyrics. My posts on this thread, however, have been to express my ideas about how some people seem to think that they can simply 'dismiss' anyone that disagrees with them. I reacted to Branwen's 'I am not amused' attitude in her comment of 'how silly', and I had a perfect right to do so. If she had not written those two words, in fact, I never would have posted to this thread at all. I wholly agree with you that this is an open forum, and please God that it always remains so. The best way to effect change will always be through discussion and debate. However, it is Max that has the last say about who is told to shut up, and not yourself. I've re-read the other thread, and I can't see where anyone was threatened, bullied or intimidated. Unfortunately, some people believe that anyone who disagrees with them, especially when that disagreement is emotional and strongly worded, is out to bully them. That is entirely a subjective reaction and cannot be determined by anyone, except the person reacting to the disagreement. -- Áine
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:11 PM Aine- My intention was not to imply that I feel you should be dismissed, simply because we happen to disagree on this issue, or that I want you to be. I feel that everyone has a right to their opinion, and I completely respect yours. I simply meant that it has become apparent to me through the first thread on this subject that we all feel very strongly about our respective positions, and that it is unlikely that any of us will change our mind on this issue based on what it said by another, and I therefore see no reason in arguing or getting upset about it. Again, I completely respect and understand your position, I just don't see any point is arguing about it. -branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:40 PM Dear Branwen, Thank you for your last post. I do believe that you respect my position; however, I can't say that I believe that you understand it. I doubt seriously if you have ever experienced the fear that I have, or have ever been a subject of loathing, as I have. Perhaps that is why I have spoken so strongly to the subject of this song. I sincerely want you to understand. I never intended to bully you in any way, and I hope that you will always believe that. The passion in my responses was meant as a plea to you, and the others that see no harm in this song, to 'walk a mile in my shoes' and hopefully, feel the pain that the attitudes promulgated by this type of song can bring to other human beings. I am not usually one of the folks here at the Mudcat that 'rant' very often. In fact, hardly ever. You won't find my name in most of the 'opinion' threads here. As a matter of fact, I hardly ever even read them. This has been one of the rate instances where I could not keep silent, and I felt that I had the chance to light a wee candle in the darkness. I see, however, that I have failed. But I will pray with all my heart that you will see the light one day, and rejoice in the freedom of the heart that it will bring you. I wish you a long life filled with knowledge; but, keep an eye on those dragons, OK? -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:44 PM Áine, if we have a speaker on the podium who is trying to express an idea, and there are hecklers all over the audience who are shouting and doing their best to prevent the speaker from speaking, what is the appropriate response? I think it's to get the hecklers to shut up, and to allow the speaker to say what he has to say. If you know the lyrics and don't want to post them, that's one thing. If you badger and bully in order to prevent somebody else from posting the lyrics, that's quite another matter. I very much doubt that I would choose to sing this song if it's as bad as it has been described - but how would I know? If I did sing a song you thought offensive, and you chose to walk out of the concert, that would be an appropriate response on your part - I've done that myself, on occasion. I might even walk out on the Blarney Brothers if they sang this particular song. If you were to climb up on the stage and attempt to prevent me from singing the song, then I think it would be appropriate for me to ask the ushers to assist you in making your statement by walking out of the concert. This is not a concert. This is a discussion forum. Somebody wants to discuss a song, but how can we discuss it if the bullies around here won't even allow us to see the lyrics? I'm not looking for somebody who espouses the point of view expressed by the lyrics - I just want to see the darn song, and you're preventing me from doing that. So let me see the song, and THEN we can talk about the SONG, not about the person who posted the damn thing. -Joe Offer- And as for the guest who didn't see fit to use a name, this is a song that appears on the Blarney Brothers CD, so it seems to be appropriate to discuss it in this thread. So go piss up a rope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:46 PM No, Joe, wrong analogy. It's where the performer comes down and forces you to listen to it. B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:57 PM And Joe. Please dont fantasise. How am I or anyone else going to prevent anybody from posting these lyrics? Where's this bullying? You only read my words. You don't hear my voice. And 'bullying' is physically impossible. Remember. I'm half a world away. For chrissakes get a life. There's no 'bullying' going on around here. There may be 'strong' words, then, again there may be strong feelings. But the 'bullying' argument is a cop-out, I'm afraid. There's no red herrings here. Just no reasons to prove a point by posting these lyrics. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:25 AM Joe, you are being illogical when you say, "This is supposed to be an open forum, a place where people can (be) free to express ideas." Then tell us to "shut up." You also know that the Folk Nazi threads were about much more than what Mbo said in another thread. Those threads discussed so much more and were so informative that to say they were only about criticising one person is disingenuous. No one is bullying. No one is denying you any rights to a damn song. You are making a mountain out of a molehill and being offensive about it. Larry and Aine both posted very incredible information about the Roma people and that is being ignored, i.e. not validated, because of your mighty "crusade." None of us can, nor would want to, physically keep any lyrics from being posted, so I am sure, at some point, you will get to read the bloody thing. Perhaps you should take your own advice now and "shut up." kat |
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Subject: Rent to Gypsies song From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:53 AM OK, so if there's no attempt at censorship by bullying here, prove it. Let the song be posted without further protest, and then let's talk about it. Take advantage of the discussion at hand to discuss the plight of the Travelling People. Once the song is posted, then it can serve to illustrate just what it is that people are talking about. In fact, one of you who objects to the song might want to post it yourself (with an appropriate disclaimer, of course). If you haven't been waging a crusade of intimidation against the posting of this song, prove it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:58 AM Protest = Bullying. Where have I heard that before? B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:02 AM Joe, are you trying to bully someone who has heard this song and has known personal hurt because of this song? That's what it sounds like. Turning the tables can be endless and non-productive. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Lepus Rex Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:24 AM Joe, it looks like you're the only one who's bullying. The folks who got upset were nagging, not bullying. You wrote that 'if Larry or anybody else tries to intimidate people into not posting the lyrics, I will become extremely angry.' How were they intimidating anyone? I agree that they pushed it a little far, but, hey, that's their thing. You've been rude, insulting, vulgar, and, with the 'become extremely angry' and 'I expect this song to be posted' cracks, threatening. Reeelax, man. You're not going to get your point across by lording it over them. Brendy, Áine, and the others probably did the same for their cause with their hassling of those who disagreed with them. How is what you're doing any better and not worse than what they did? ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:52 AM Well, you know, it just doesn't happen very often around here that somebody tries to prevent a song from being posted. In fact, I don't think it has ever happened before. It seems to me that far more controversial songs have been posted here, and then we've had a sensible discussion of the song. For some reason, this one seems to have become a cause celebre and a number of people don't want the rest of us to even see the song. They want to jump and shout and say how terrible it is, but they don't want the rest of us to be able to make a judgment for ourselves. I can see all the justification if the world for wanting to criticize such a song and the sentiments expressed in it. I just simply can't understand why it shouldn't be posted. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:53 AM I just have a problem with the term 'bullying'. Remember that the word 'war' was not introduced by myself or Áine. This virtual bullying started with the 'coat-trailing' further up the thread. I don't feel 'bullied' by what Joe or anyone has to say, just as he, and everybody else, should not feel 'bullied' by my form of directness. I have no control over what is posted here; none of us have (metaphorically speaking), so how on earth can I prevent these lyrics from being posted? 'Bullying' doesn't come into it. When our protests are called 'bullying', well then I can see that all other alternative arguments are well and truly exhausted, and it is invariably the last resort of those who need an extra stick to walk around with. Tough, if you don't like my views. Unfortunately, though, when subjects like this are raised, well then I'm entitled to my opinion as everyone else, and you will, at some stage have to convince me that you're right, just the same as you have to do with other people. Be careful about the term 'bullying', though, if you don't mind. We wouldn't want to transmit any subliminal bias here after all, now, would we? B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: JedMarum Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:56 AM Holy sh*t! I walk away from this 'invitation to a party' thread for a little while and walk back into a fire storm! What the heck happened? It's very simple; the Blarney Brothers are a great Dallas area band, with an important show at one of the nation's oldest and best acoustic music venues this weekend. These are warm hearted, fun loving, hard working, talented musicians with no idea of the tempest that has brewed in this tea cup over one of their performance numbers - and I promise you, not even an inkling of the heinous crime that has been laid at their feet. For me the somg is no more insidious then jokes about banjo players, bodhran players, Republicans, Democrats (in fact those 2 are sometimes nasty), blondes, red heads, Irishman, Scotman ... all play on generalities and stereotypes, and point to the fun and humor we can find in all of our life situations. If you see evil beyond that, in this song, well so be it. Don't listen to it. Don't laugh. I hope you enjoy the Poor David's show Branwen. Please give my very best to the lads. I'm working elsewhere tomorrow, or I'd be there myself. I'll also pass this link on to Matt or David. Maybe they would care to respond to the thoughts expressed in this thread themsleves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:58 AM So, Brendy, since you know the song, why don't you post it so I can spend a minute reading it over and say, "Yeah, Brendy, you're right. The song stinks." Which is probably what I would say about it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:59 AM Jed? Fuck off. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:03 AM The reason being, Joe, that I don't go around promulgating all this stuff. I thought it was 'heresy' enough pointing someone to 'Land of Hope and Glory' once. I don't spread trash. Call it a weakness of mine B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:08 AM Joe -- I'm sure you'll get your wish. But it'll have to come from someone other than myself. Jed -- No, this issue is not 'simple' by any means. And if by 'Matt and David', you mean members of the Blarney Brothers, then by all means send them here and let them defend the song themselves. Agus a Bhrendy -- A chuisle, gabh ar luí anois direach. Tá tú ro-thuirseach ar fad a bheith a caint le chiall anois. Mo ghrá thú agus coladh sámh. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:13 AM Well, I have to admit there are a few requested songs that I've had, but didn't post because I objected to them for one reason or another. I kind of hope that we might agree that if and when the song is posted, we attack the song, not the posting of it or the person who posted it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: JedMarum Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:23 AM Áine - sorry, I maent the original post was simple; Branwen was saying "hey come on out to the show this weekend" - afterall, Mrs Stein is only one of hundreds the Blarney's sing. I realize the controversy is not simple and don't want to trivialize your feelings about the song. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:48 AM Reading both of these threads, I am amazed at the reactions. I've always been one to push the ability to laugh and not take ourselves too seriously. There is always a line though isn't there? Through lack of education, "Gypsy" has not received the same status as nazi or nigger. Would we really be having this discussion if someone requested the words to a song by the "Aryan Brothers" titled "Them Niggers Stole My Watermelons?" Just curious. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Walking Stereotype Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:44 AM I have to say I'm with Jed on this. Good grief, people! This was an invitation to a party! That's all, simply put. Barbara, you obviously were aware of the possible repercussions when you asked for the lyrics, as you censored yourself when asking for them. Could you not have asked for them in a PM? Stereotypes are funny because there is SOME truth to them. Just ask any folk musician about what real folk is. I live in a HIGHLY diverse neighborhood (which I love) and see stereotypes ever single day, several times a day. I'm one. My friends are. My family is stereotypical. For pete's sake, we all are! (Which is made very obvious in this thread.) If we censor folk music of any type, whether we like it or not, we lose chunks of our history. Our history is who we are, good and bad, right and wrong. If you're offended, upset, angry: don't listen. Rant and rave all you want, but don't attempt to censor. We are, after all, a Democracy here at the Mudcat. Are we not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:48 AM I'm puzzled by this thread too. The people who are protesting about this song may well have valid points but it is impossible to form any conclusions without seeing the words. What does that this particular song contain that is not contained in other songs in the DT? Surely just about every form of injustice is expressed in folk music. Has this one been outlawed by the US government or what? Maybe it is a bad song but I can not accept the arguements of those who are willing to speak so strongly against it yet refuse to produce any hard evidence. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:41 PM If there's someone out there who has the words of this sontg and wants to share them, they can post them here. Nobody can stop them. Nothings going to happen to them. Hell, if they are paranoid that someone onthe Mudcat is going to hate them because they've posted the words, they can dump their cooklie. Th question of censorship doesn't come into it, and I can't see why the word keeps on cropping up. Censorship is when someone uses their power to stop something being sprinted or said or whatever. That hasn't happened here. It can't happen here. It's not a public gathering where it is possible to shout someone down, anymore tha yoe can heckle a radio programme. It's not in the nature of the baste.
As with most disagreements there are a couple of intertwined issues here.
One is to do with censorship in general - "you've got a right to say what you want to and I'll defend it even if I disagree" versus "you may have a right to say what you want to, but in some cases you might have to do it over my dead body". Maybe the US constitution holds the former view, but that doesn't end the argument. The US constitution has been known to get things wrong.
And there are the disagreements over the song itself - and here it breaks down into one disagreement about whether this is a song that propagates disparaging stereotypes Gypsies, and a separate disagreement about whether whether one propagating disparaging stereotypes of Gypsies is something that matters or not. And there's another one about whether it'd be a good idea for someone to post the words of the bloody song.
The bottom line for me is that it is important to recognise that the treatment given to Gypsies and other travelling people, has been (and often continues to be)terrible and shameful. This should never be trivialised, any more than the treatmetn given historically to Jews or black people or native people. And however we disagree about the other issues, I hope we all agree about that. |
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Subject: Song Posting Policy From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:20 PM I posted to this thread in response to a complaint that people were creating a bullying atmosphere that might make it uncomfortable for somebody to post the lyrics to a song. I also received a complaint that people were harassing somebody for posting songs that were sympathetic with the Orange cause in Northern Ireland. I haven't checked into that situation, but I will. A couple of years ago, a regular Mudcatter was badgered and harassed out of regular participation in the Forum, simply because some people thought he was too stuffy in the way he posted messages. This particular controversy began several weeks ago in the Doesn't Rent to Gypsies thread. Somebody posted a request for the lyrics to a song that may be offensive to the Travelling People. A person who apparently had not even heard the song responded with a series of tirades that condemned the original requester for simply requesting a song. A strongly worded statement in favor of gypsies and against discrimination would have been appropriate. An attack on a person for requesting or posting a song is not. OK, here is the policy. I wrote it, because Max usually asks me to write the policy statements. If you wish to appeal this policy, you may appeal it to Max. The Mudcat Cafe is a music discussion forum. Other activities are permitted and encouraged, but the primary focus of the Forum is music. The discussion of music is to be given special protection. Harassment which discourages or attempts to prevent the requesting, posting, or discussion of a song will not be tolerated, no matter how controversial the song may be.The song should be posted. Thank you. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:28 PM There's that word 'bullying' again. Just in a different form. You're welcome Joe Good point, Spaw. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:52 PM Interesting, Joe. I responded to private requests by others who felt their firsthand knowledge of the lyrics and the oppression of Travellers was being ignored and trivialised. I still saw no "Harassment which discourages or attempts to prevent the requesting, posting, or discussion of a song." On the contrary, people who felt strongly about the song and knew it, did not harass, they merely posted their feeelings backed up with personal experiences and historical fact; it's called educating. So, there was plenty of discussion; no one said "don't post this song"; and no one said, "do not ask for the lyrics of this song." Spaw, excellent point. It would also be interesting to know how many among us still use the term "gyped", when they feel they've been cheated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:33 PM "A song that may be offensive to the Travelling People" - if a song is offensive to the Travelling People it should be offensive to all of us.
As InOBU said "What next, the Horst Wessel song? How about - don't rent to Blacks - Puerto Ricans - Jews..." I thought he was pretty restrained, especially for InOBU, who is not the most restrained of Catters.
I'm surprised noone's posted it yet - that has the effect of seeing to imply it's worse than it probably actually is. But I haven't seen the Horst Wessel song either, and I have to admit to being a little bit prejudiced against that one, and I don't think I need to apologise for that.
Maybe it's time someone posted the words, and lanced the boil. But as I said in my last post, the song itself is only one out of a range of disagreements here. If it turned out it wasn't the least bit offensive about Gypsies (or about liberal-minded Jews), that wouldn't sort out all the issues involved. But maybe it might let us leave the other issues to be explored again in less cluttered context at a future time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:15 PM If someone has the lyrics,please send them to me in a personal message.I'm a big boy,and would like to make up my own mind about them. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:31 PM I would like to see them too. As it stands, I know that Peter Krug, Alan Dameron and now the Blarney Brothers have recorded it. I have read one poster that I respect describe it as "A great song" and another say "I gotta say, I like it. Part of the humor of it, is that it has a very lively gypsy melody". I have also read comments from people I respect who obvoiusly dislike the song. It would be nice to have the oppertunity to judge for myself. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: IvanB Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:43 PM Frankly, Joe, I'm greatly disappointed, and I'd like a little clarification. You state that the policy stated above is was written by you because 'Max usually asks me to write the policy statements.' Does this mean that Max has decided a policy is needed on this subject and asked you to write it or that YOU felt a policy was needed and wrote it on the basis that you usually write the policy statements? I see the policy as a start down that slippery slope of censorship. Who is going to determine what is 'harrassment?' What is going to be done about it? I've been proud of the fact that Mudcat has been one of the most open forums on the internet, and I don't see the need for policies like the above. So there were emotional posts about a lyrics request. The truth is, that in a medium such as this NOBODY can force someone to post or not post lyrics to a song. As has been stated above, if someone feels they may take some sort of heat for what they post, they can lose there cookie for the time needed to post as a guest. Whoever decided that the above policy should be posted, I hope that it will not lead to a lessening of the freedom we've all had to be ourselves on Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 16 Sep 00 - 04:49 PM As for the lyrics: As of this evening, the CD with this song on it will be available to the public. I encourage anyone who buys this CD this evening to post the lyrics to the song in question on this forum. If the lyrics are not posted by the end of day tomorrow, I will attempt to find and purchase this CD myself and post the lyrics on this forum. I am tired of being accused of bullying people into not posting this song. As for the New Mudcat Policy: I agree with the idea that personal threats and harrassment should not be tolerated on this forum. That 'policy' has been stated by Max himself time and again. However, I agree with IvanB that this New Mudcat Policy, as apparently authored by Joe Offer, will start the Mudcat Forum 'down that slippery slope of censorship'. It worries me to think that the person who will be enforcing this policy is the same person who told people posting to this thread to 'shut up' and 'go piss up a rope'. And I agree with the unnamed 'Guest' above (the person that was told to 'go piss up a rope'), that a new thread should be created and further discussions carried on there. In particular, the New Mudcat Policy could bear some discussion by the other members of this forum. I will not start this new thread myself, however, and I will not participate in it. I am under the impression that I have been placed on Joe's 'short list', that I have been warned off of expressing my ideas and opinions on this forum, and that I am in danger of losing my membership herein. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Mbo Date: 16 Sep 00 - 04:55 PM Stop this, all of you! This one song can't be that important! |
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Subject: Censorship From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 05:05 PM Look, I think it's time we stopped this fight. Generally, the policy has been that it is ALWAYS appropriate to request or post songs here - whether it's the "Horst Wessel Lied," or whatever. This is the way we've done things from the very beginning. This matter has developed into a rather heated controversy about whether a song should be posted, so I took it upon myself to write my interpretation of the policy - I'm usually the one who writes those things. If Max and Dick and Susan disagree, then I make changes. Now, I suppose you can take that to ridiculous extremes like some anonymous person tried to do with the "Them Niggers Stole My Watermelons" thread, but that's a different matter. In this case, we're talking about a legitimate song that has been performed in public and recorded - not made up on the spur of the moment for the purpose of causing dissension here. It's a real song, and people want to know what it says so they can evaluate it for themselves. Once the song has been posted, people are free to attack the song as much as they want. Same goes with the Orange songs - you are free to attack the content of the songs and the movement behind them - but it definitely is official Mudcat policy to encourage and protect the posting of all legitimate songs, no matter how controversial they may be. I would say that the policy seems reasonable. Maybe my interpretation of the situation is incorrect, but it seems very clear to me that there are a number of people who are working very hard to prevent the posting of this song, and they have created an atmosphere that appears to me to be intimidating. They have reinforced this intimidation by posting anonymously in another thread. While it may beem to be a "violation of free speech" to restrict intimidation, it appears to me that the intimidation is a far more serious violation of somebody's freedom of speech. If would be ideal if we did not have to intervene at all. Now, if there is no intimidation or attempt to prevent the posting of this song, then everything is just hunky-dory and we're just passing wind here. I still haven't seen the song, though I see that Áine has the courage to offer to post it if nobody else does. And with your statement, Áine, you have advanced to the top of my highly favored list. I really hate getting involved in fights, especially ones like this. I'm here for the music and the comraderie, and I intensely dislike conflict. We try hard to keep this forum going with as little control and restriction as possible. We do intervene when we see attacks that restrict the freedom of the recipients of the attacks, but it would be far better if we did not have to intervene at all. If Áine has agreed to see to it that somebody posts the song, that's good enough for me. Thanks, Áine. And to avoid future conflict, I will offer to post songs on behalf of anybody who prefers to be anonymous. Send them to me by personal message, and I'll post them without posting your name. Thanks. -Joe Offer-
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jeri Date: 16 Sep 00 - 05:21 PM As far as the guest who suggested this be discussed in a separate thread, I agree. It's enough thread creep, and is no longer about the Blarney Brothers or their CD, but about a specific song. "Go piss up a rope" is no way to respond to a polite suggestion. Áine, Brendy, and whomever - I find this "talk-around" frustrating. I'd suggest that we discuss the song when we have the song to discuss, but I'm not in charge of the world. As it is, we have a few people talking about something that's a secret to be kept from the rest of us. I'd probably feel similar to you about the song, but at this point, I'm very irritated at the people who are treating the lyrics as insider-information and some big secret. I don't like people making up my mind for me, and haven't since I was a kid with my parents telling me "you won't like that." They were often right, but at least they gave me the option of finding out for myself.
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Sep 00 - 05:37 PM Passing wind indeed then, because so far as I could see there was at no stage any intimidation or attempt to prevent the song being posted.
Actually I like a good conflict this time. Not this time though. An enjoyable conflict is when it's a kind of game, a fierce debate; or when you're up against a demon that needs to be destroyed.
This wasn't either of those. It was a muddle. Noone who like the song seemed to be interested in posting the lyrics, people who were pretty sure they didn't like the ideas underlying the song getting accused of censorship. And at last the vicious spiral gets broken by Áine, who reasonably anticipate that the words will be offensive to her especially, pledging to post them.
Which is actually a great exampe of non-violence in action. We get something good out if it after all. (And I don't think I mean the song in question when I say that.)
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:17 PM If there was any intimidating going on, it was on your part, Joe, in your heavyhandedness and rhetoric. Thanks, Aine, for being so brave and for not leaving. You are a valued and beloved member and I am pleased to see you have not given up. Hopefully someone else, who is really interested in the song, will save you the pain of posting the lyrics and do it themselves.
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Áine Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:49 PM My dear mehitabel, I will run no more forever. This girl ain't gonna bolt for nobody. I'm still working on freeing a few more of my dragons; but, you'll be skating in Hades before I leave the Mudcat voluntarily. No brag, just fact. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:15 AM Damn glad to hear, m'dear! Now, would that be "dry ice" for the skating pond?**BG** |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 17 Sep 00 - 02:18 AM Joe. You really have your head right up your own ass on this one, I'm afraid. I'm sorry, but that's the way I feel about it. Look: I am not one of these "...working very hard to prevent the posting of this song..". If you think that, you've been reading my posts all wrong. I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT OTHERS POST IN THIS FORUM. So how the fuck can I (or others) prevent the song's posting? You're making a lot of extravagant claims up there, Joe. But your 'take' on the situation concerns me not. What does, is your quite obvious attempt to attack others who find the sentiments of this song abhorrent, and accuse them of every other crime under the sun. Let's start way up at the top again, shall we? Barbara said, in her first post: "while you're at it. I would still like to see them. Here. The single-most significant part of that post, is the full stop (period), after 'them', and before 'Here'. I am not intimidating anyone on this forum. To insinuate that any of the people opposed to the sentiments of this song are intimidating anyone, is as red a herring as I've seen in a long time. Date: 16-Sep-00 - 03:13 AM Well, I have to admit there are a few requested songs that I've had, but didn't post because I objected to them for one reason or another. I kind of hope that we might agree that if and when the song is posted, we attack the song, not the posting of it or the person who posted it. -Joe- Absolutely, Joe. But what if that person is posting the song, so as to rub it into the noses of others, what then? And Jeri, you're right, about all this 'talk-around' I don't take that kind of garbage from anybody. I've experienced my share of coat-trailing, in my time. And I've experienced freedom of expression at first hand, many times, when the Orange mobs used to try and use our front living room as their playground. All because of their right to be '.Here' Re-define bullying, and intimidation, Joe, and others. Because I don't want to be having this same conversation anytime in the forseeable future. I, too, am here to contribute what I can to the overall pot. And, for what it's worth, try to give a bit of advice here and there. But I think you will find that whatever else I do, if I spot bigotry or coat-trailing, especially aimed at people I care about, I'm going to defend that corner. Of course I am. I believe in a free and open society. But my vision of utopia doesn't include walking over the sensibilities of others, just because you have the right to. That is fascism, Joe. And that kind of thinking gets right up my nose. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 00 - 02:43 AM I've said what I have to say. Thanks for your comments, Brendy, but I have no desire to fight and don't know how I got baited into this in the first place. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:54 AM 'Shut up', I think, was your P - K4, Joe. I have no desire to 'fight' neither. Virtually, or otherwise. But I cannot discern any lessening in your position as to who gets the arbitary 'bullying' tag, when they get it, and by whom they get it from. Being called a 'bully' insults my intelligence, more than causes any actual hurt, and, I'm afraid, gets the obligatory 'Go Fuck Yourself' award from me. Oh, just before I go. What would your opinion of a person be if they sent you two PMs telling you that (a) that they loved your version of a song, and (b) was 'stealing your arrangement' of it, and propsing to use it, yet who told me didn't want to be seen posting to the thread (which I had started), because of what certain others might think? The question was rhetorical. And like yourself, I grew up believing in the 'sanctity of the confessional'. For that reason no-one will ever know who it was that hadn't the common decency to at least 'tip their hat' in my direction for fear of.....for fear of what? Loss of image? Who knows, Joe. Who knows. I'm not into this 'image' thing. I'm actually fairly 'shy' when it comes to 'advertising' what I do. I never think it's good enough, d'ya know what I mean? But when somebody sticks their hand right up your ass, and smiles when they say, 'Great Brendy, I loved your stuff. Now I'm going to take your riffs. But I wont be seen dead thanking you', it says more about the other person than it does me, IMO. Goodbye folks. Take my membership, Joe. Be my guest. I will become yours. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:16 AM Could we be so lucky as to see Brendy the nitwit finally leave? Probably not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,another guest Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:17 AM Take that lafkat thing with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:24 AM Well I for one hope that Brendy stays. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: bob schwarer Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:29 AM Good riddance. Too many here intollerant of any opinion that does not agree with theirs. Bob S. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:30 AM As do I, Jon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jeri Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:47 AM Folks, I never quite understood why Brendy got so upset about this, but that's why he's here. If we all share the same opinions and write with the same style, we might as well talk to ourselves. Brendy, you seemed to get quite mad at some people, but that's fine. I'm an adult, and I can take it. (I fully expected to be told to "fuck off" at some point.) You presented a point of view on this song that no one else had, and I learned something from it. As far as stealing arangements, I don't doubt you expressed your feelings about that to the person who told you they were going to do it, and it's not a surprise to read here-and-now you're mad about it. If someone uses your arrangement without crediting you, it's wrong. What if they tell people who they learned it from? It's something that's done all the time, and I've bought recordings because someone said "I learned the way I play that from (this musician/this CD)." Is it still wrong? Re going "GUEST," you're probably gonna get more shit than you do with a name, and you're going to get lumped in with all the other anon guests. I would think there's a very small number of people who've pissed you off, and there's a rather large number who learn something from what you write. If you feel it's necessary to change they way you do things because of few people, it's your choice. I personally don't want to lose "Brendy." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:59 AM Re: Jeri's last paragraph--------Yeah Brendy, what she said. As to the gutless wonder who wishes not to be publicly associated with you.........Screw 'em. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 17 Sep 00 - 01:27 PM um.... if anyone still cares, I have the cd, and anyone who cares to hear the song, PM me your email address and I can send it to you as an attachment. Please specify MP3 or WAV. IF you'd prefer not to receive so large an attachment in your email, or are unable to, I can give you a link and instructions for downloading it. -Branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Sep 00 - 02:22 PM Thanks Branwen, but while I'll read the words with interest when someone post them here, I doubt if it's a song I'll want to listen to.
Here is one that might be more appropriate to us right now.
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Sep 00 - 02:25 PM Well, it should be here this time - I left a = out last time.
And if it still doesn't work,here is the link in open: http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/d/d008.html
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Sep 00 - 03:03 PM Well Branwen has kindly supplied me with the link to the track and am now in a position to offer my opinion: I agree with Aine that the band are talented and that it is a shame that they decided to include this track. I loved the tune - shame it was wasted on what I consider to be a very insulting set of words. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Big Mick Date: 17 Sep 00 - 03:05 PM I have read this and wanted to comment, but each time I couldn't find the words that I needed to find. Still not sure if I can, but let me try with a few takes. First off, GUEST, why don't you bugger off?? Many folks here have taken stands on this issue, principled stands, based on their take. And they post their names. I have respect for them, even if I don't agree with a large percentage of them. You are a non entity. You know, like the person that bitches about the state of the government, but doesn't vote. If Brendy left, this place would be a great deal the lesser for it. If you left, no one would miss you. To those that don't get why Aine and Larry are hurt by this song,......that is exactly the point. It doesn't matter if you can feel, or get, the hurt caused by these things. You are not the victim of them. That is the difference between people of conscience who are trying to make a better world, and people who think that if their world is OK then the rest of the world are a bunch of whiners who lack self motivation. It is not enough to say that you have never discriminated hence you are not the problem. Caring people, people who believe that making the world better for their kids involves making it better for all kids, try to figure out what it is that a group finds offensive. And is sensitive to that. Aine, you are a brave person to confront these memories. And you are a noble person to embrace your heritage. And you are generous of spirit to share it with us. The feelings that you caused to well up in me are beyond description. Thank you for sharing this. And by the way, Mudcatters, Aine only sought to share her feelings, to give you information that you could make your judgements about this and other issues as concerns the Roma/Pavee. If you are a person who ponders these things, use her brave confession, and the information that Larry has given us to ponder your own feelings about these people. I think we need to lighten up a bit on Joe. Because he is right? No, because he stepped into something and doesn't know the way out. And because he has done as much to keep this place going as anyone here. I believe that he is focused wrong on this issue. Joe, why are you getting upset that the people most offended by this song aren't posting it? Buy the CD, my friend, and post the lyrics yourself. At no time did I find anyone trying to intimidate anyone else from posting it. They simply refused to post it themselves. And Joe, the title itself is offensive to me. I think that I can imagine the content of this song just from this alone. The title is meant to conjure stereotypical images, and they are negative. Oh yes, and by the way, you just blew your canonization with the language.................LOL...................I know the feeling. Nice to see that you are human, but I wonder what caused that. I have been here quite a while and never seen that side of you. And lest you misread the context, these are remarks meant to make you chuckle, not get mad. Do I think that the words should be posted? Absolutely. Am I going to seek them out to do so? Absolutely not. But when someone else does, I will surely read them and make my own judgements. I feel no different about this song than I do about the songs of the Orange Movement. Songs like this, along with these discussions, shape the historical record. It allows those who come after to make their own judgements about our times, and our sensitivities. I am glad for these threads, just as I am happy about the discussions of "The Troubles" and the marching season, and the rebel music. Max has told us that this will all be preserved, that those that come later will be able to read our comments and they will learn. We cannot control what they think of us. But we can contribute information that will be used to shape those opinions. Have some confidence folks, what you are speaks louder than what you say you are. Brendy, I am very glad that you are here. I don't agree with you on certain issues and wholeheartedly agree with you on others. But you are a straight talker, and a take no prisoners debater. You speak from a heart that is tempered in passion and experience. That is good. I do wish, an Bráithair Brendy, that when you have a person of demonstrated character (like Joe Offer) down, you would leave it there. You won the debate, no need to choke the last breath out of him. Joe is a wonderful person and a friend. Graceful victory is a virtue. You won the debate. Let it lie. To all, I would ask you to consider this. There was much talk on this subject, but not a whole lot of communication on this thread. That is the fault of the proponents of the various positions. You were so hung up on your respective opinions that you missed the opportunities for understanding, common ground, and true communications. And you talked in circles. I have done it many times, how about we learn from it? Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Barbara Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:06 PM Way back at the beginning of this thread, I asked for the lyrics for this to be posted. It's been a number of years since I heard the song, and I don't remember it being that offensive. Now before you all leap on me, let me ask some questions. I hear very strongly that the Roma culture is persecuted in England and in Germany. I followed kat's links and read some of the history. I saw Ladlo Drom and loved it, and sing and enjoy Ewan's songs about the travelers. It has also been my impression, and to a small degree my experience, that there is a part of the Roma culture here in the US that has a penchant for raising money through questionable operations, earlier in relation to horsetrading, and more recently in relation to asphalt. Are the US and UK cultures the same, similar? Do Roma travel in bands in the US? I don't think I've encountered this except for the part of the Roma that work with carnivals, and the asphalt crowd. I had a good friend who was Roma in college, and her father taught at the University of Toronto, and wasn't a part of a band that I knew about. I had always assumed that the running of scams (by whatever portion of the tribe) went with the fierce loyalty to community, and mainting of difference between "us" and "outsiders" (who are fair game). (There are some similar traits in some of the American Indian cultures). People who fall for the schemes are usually greedy, and believe they are conning the Roma instead of vice versa. It seems to me they get what they deserve, even when they are my grandparents. So if there was ever an opportunity for me to be a part of Roma music and dance, I would do it in a hot minute, but I probably would choose someone else to pave my driveway. I know, you'll say with an attitude like mine, I won't get asked to the dance. So be it. Thing is, I can respect another culture without (1) expecting it to play by the same rules as mine and (2)without trusting its members to play by my rules. This is part of what "unassimilated" means. Blessings, Barbara PS Mick, how do you feel about all those Drunken Irish Wake music hall songs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Lieut. Commander Worf Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:23 PM Klingon blood wine, anyone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Big Mick Date: 17 Sep 00 - 05:13 PM Yeah, Barbara, point well taken. And a very good post, by the way. I didn't find much in it that I could take issue with. The stereotype of the drunken Irishman is a difficult one to describe. There is merit to the fact that the craic is, or at least in most circles that I have been involved in, is best enjoyed over the jar of the dark stuff. There is no denying that the revel involved with the wake included drinking. What I object to is the portrayal of us as drunken Irishmen and women not capable of participating in society. I also object to the portrayal of the Paddy as a sloped forehead, ignorant lout of no use to the civilized world. By the way, I also object to those of Irish descent who use that as a reason to go out and act out those roles. These are the worst offenders, in my mind. I think what I am trying to say here is that there is a distinction to be made between a stereotype of a people that enjoy a drink, and characterizing them as a worthless, drunken race of slope headed savages that are of no use to the civilized world. Our people have contributed mightily to the cultures of many lands. Ours is among the oldest written histories, and literature in the world. When we poke fun at ourselves, or the human condition, that is one thing. But when the purpose of the song is to demonstrate that a whole body of any peoples is something less than another, that is where I draw the line. I know, from my wartime and Union Organizing experiences, that as soon as one side can dehumanize the other that the gate is open for wholesale discrimination and moral as well as criminal persecution. Maybe that is the distinction, eh? Thanks for asking, my friend. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:50 PM There aren't hard and fast rules about these kinds of things - it's like jokes. At one extreme you get people who are telling jokes about their own community/nationality/whatver in away that is affirming its strengths and its humour. And there are lots of in-betweens. But they all might be telling the same joke, but with a different meaning. And the same goes for songs.
The first thing that matters is the intention within the person telling the joke or singing the song; and the second is the likely way that the particular audience is going to take it. But of course in these days of canned music and so forth the audience can be anyone, and the discretion that good performers alwys have with a live audience is undercut.
"Offending" isn't the right word. "Insulting", and "hurting" are better ones. And more important, licensing prejudice. |
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Subject: Travelling People From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 00 - 10:52 PM Barbara, as I understand it, there was one family of Roma who were pulling a series of home-maintenance scams all over the West Coast. A very large, extended family - but still just one family. Wherever Western European culture sets down roots and lays claim to land that was once held in common by all, there are going to be culture clashes. You see it with the Bedouins in the Middle East, with the Native Americans and indigenous people everywhere, and with the Roma. I'm sure there is much about the Roma culture which is offensive to law-abiding homeowners - but I think the Roma existed before the property titles did. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: Lyr Add: MRS. STEIN DON'T RENT TO GYPSIES ANYMORE From: Áine Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:07 PM Mrs. Stein spends her winters in Miami And she lets her home to tenants while she's gone And last year she let her small home to some gypsies With a discount if they'd take care of her lawn Well, the gypsy king he swore they would be careful They would mow her lawn and prune her roses too Yes he swore they would be the best caretakers Taking care as only gypsies seems to do That rental was the ruin of her little sweet abode For they grazed their horses on her lawn and sold her flush comode And to keep the fireplace going, they tore out her hardwood floor Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey Mrs. Stein forgot that gypsies come in bunches Like bananas on a green banana tree They snuggle up to shelter, warmth and comfort And last year, you know, we had an early freeze Well, the word had gone out fast to all the gypsies That the tribe of old King Yanosh had found a home There were cars from Texas, made in Massachusetts Gypsies got there from _____, and some from Rome They were sleeping in the attic, they were sleeping on the stairs Used the basement as a bathroom, really lent the place an air And to keep the fireplace going, they tore out her hardwood floor Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey In her living room, they opened up a barre jour And when the neighbors came to call, they ripped 'em off With crystal ball, tarot, palmistry and tea leaves Picking pockets of the ones that came to scoff Well, the things they did annoyed her irate neighbors (musical break) Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie You could hear their gypsy violins 'till dawn For they dragged her Persian carpet to the garden And they built this rageing campfire in the lawn There was laughing, dancing, singing, and the sound of tambourines Some errant neighbors' husbands were discovered at the scene And they helped to feed the campfire with what looked like hardwood floor Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey Then at last one irate neighbor called Miami (Spoken) "Hello, Mrs. Stein?" And she told her Mrs. Stein just how things stood (Spoken) "I hope you've got good insurance, and you're out of beer." With the gypsy violins and rageing campfire Gotta wonder where the gypsies found the wood And perhaps the gypsies read it in the tarot Or perhaps the gypsies saw it in the stars But the minute that her jet plane left Miami They began to load her furniture in cars (Spoken) "Get the hot tub, the ______ machine, the whips and chains -- unintelligible -- and leave the bidet right where it is) They regarded household fixtures and their private treasure trove Ripped up the sink and ice box, the cabinets and the stove And as one last gypsy gesture, stole the last of hardwood floor Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:26 PM Thanks, Aine. It would be interesting to see if a song could be written on this topic that treats the clash of cultures with both humor and sensitivity. This one almost makes it in places, but it's too full of unfair stereotypes. I'm hoping the "lie, lie, lie" is because it's sung to the tune of "The Boxer," and that it's not another stereotype. Nope. I don't like the song and wouldn't sing it. but it was worthwhile to see it for myself. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:44 PM I posted on the other thread, but this is complete crap. Aine, as I said over there.....You have my doubled respect for doing this. I'm proud to call you my friend....I hope I'm worthy. See my post on the other thread. I hope those of you who thought this was a funny song had it confused with something else. This thing ain't just "one toke over the line," it has the subtlety of a Peterbilt smashing a manurewagon.......and it smells just as bad. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:17 AM You said it, Spaw, and I don't think Aine should have been made to feel (bullied, really) she had to post the damn thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:39 AM WELLL...I really appreciate Aine' posting this.My request was for a personal msg,in case a potential poster would feel it inappropriate for a thread.So,Kat,I don't think she was bullied into it,but I think it was the right thing to do. Having said that,I would not call it unmitigated crap,or whatever Catspaw said. It is fairly cleverly written,and has moments that caused me to smile.(Sorry about that.)But I wonder if the writer would have come up with a similar situation involving Hispanics,Blacks,Comanches or Vietnamese? I very much doubt it.Why did he choose gypsies?Because they are a small,nearly invisible minority,and highly unlikely to be a part of the Blarney's target demographic.Easy target. And,you know what? If I hadn't had conversations with folks like Aine and InObu on the Mudcat,I would probably have laughed and thought it a hilarious little tune,so sparse was my familiarity with the Roma and the prejudices against them. But I have changed in the way I see Gypsies.And so it was right that Aine tell me of the pain this caused.And it was right that Joe ask that we see the work in question before condemning it. Do you see how much Mudcat is teaching me? Thanks to all of you.Now if we can just get the Blarney Brothers a clue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:44 AM What I considered to be bullying was mostly in the other thread, LeeJ. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:49 AM Well Leej, that was an intelligent post and like you, I want to thank Aine and Larry for the education. Sadly when I tried to make the same point you did about other groups having more notoriety, I used the watermelon thing which became a thread. Thankfully, you have better sense. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:18 AM Mick, You know I'm almost afraid to post this for fear it'll be misconstrued as an attack. You held off for fear of wording your post wrong, but when you did post, you pretty much single-handedly diffused a really ugly argument in 2 posts. I think there is a lot more value in what you have to say than you give you self credit for. It would have been a great loss to have Áine or Brendy or Kat leave over an argument that snowballed like this one did. Please share what you have to say. I've been around here for a relatively short time, but I can't say I remember you ever posting anything that wasn't a blessing to the community such as it is. Oiche Mhaith, Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: My name Jo Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:53 AM I submit that it was a very conscious decision by whoever wrote the song that the victim of the destruction wrought by the Gypsies could be assumed to be Jewish. Stein is a common Jewish surname. The underpining of the message would seem to be to sow, or exagerate, inter-ethnic resentment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jeri Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:30 AM At least now I understand why there's so much disgust regarding the song. Perhaps I've learned something from posts here, but I can't imagine this song as being funny. Áine, thanks for spending the amount of time doing what must have been very distasteful in order to post the song. I'll view it as you having pointed out the rather large pile of poop I don't want to step in. I grew up in a part of the country where I never encountered Gypsies. They were the stuff of legend, and I was an adult before I realized they existed in my day and age. Perhaps the Blarney Brothers and everyone who likes this song is ignorant of their existance. Perhaps someone has explained the song portrays a stereotype and hurts people, but like some who've discussed it, they just don't care. The primary difference between a light-hearted joke and a slam is how the person who hears it feels. Some people think that only the person telling it gets to determine that. Wrong. As far as comments about people in groups making messes, have you ever seen the aftermath of an outdoor rock concert or a folk festival? I'd hazard a guess that non-Travelers can make more of a mess in a few hours or days than Travelers normally make in a weeks or months.
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:40 AM Wow. I'm sorry y'all, I still don't see it. I have laughed for years at jokes and songs that stereotype my ethnic bakground - you know, Paddy at the bar, stories, Paddy's in trouble with the priest stories, Paddy's too drunk to hold a job stories. I've also laughed about musician stereotype jokes - you know, the bass player's too stoned jokes, the drummer's a coke freak, the lead singer is a primadona, and all musicians are always broke sorta jokes. I've also laughed at blonde jokes (my natural coloring) - you know, airhead, promiscuous, no count. Why is this different? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:44 AM ... and by the way, I have realized through this discussion that there exists a more controvesial atmosphere around those called 'gypsies' or 'travellers' (synonomous??) then I have been aware of. And knowing human nature, I don't doubt there has been ugliness, in the extreme toward them. My point is, I don't see the hidden 'evils' in this song. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jeri Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:36 AM Jed, we try to understand why people feel the way they do, and sometimes get a clue. Sometimes we just have to believe them when they say something hurts. If the song is important enough to sing despite the fact it hurts others, than go ahead and do it. Those people will not understand why the song means so much to you any more than you understand why it hurts them. You can NOT get away with telling people they don't have a right to feel a certain way. That's what happened in this thread, and why everybody got so pissed off.
Try singing the song this way, and see how far you get in an audience not made up of KKK members: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Gordon Gottleib Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:46 AM Jed, The fact that you find such garbage funny is sad. Unfortunately, the fact that many people find it funny is a partial explanation of why racism is still so prevalent in this country. Sincerely, Gordon Gottleib |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM Jeri - you haven't listened carefully to my thoughts on this issue (or perhaps I have not made them clearly). I don't sing the song. I don't even know the song very well. I have chuckled at it when I've seen it performed by the Blarney's and have no particular reason to defend it. I simply say that I fail to see any hidden evils in it. I also accept that other people may have reason to be more sensitive to it then I. Prejudice and/or injustice toward gypsies has not been an obvious issue in the small part of the world in which I live - so for me, when I hear this song, I simply put it the context of songs/jokes about Paddy and Priest, Abby and Rebecca, or other tales that have a good natured 'poking of fun' at the stereotypes. The song does not foster pre-conceived negatives notions about gypsies in my heart, but then I've never been exposed to real bigorty against them, either. And finally, I do not trivialize the suffering that anyone has suffered at the hands of bigots; be they gypsies or blacks, jews, catholics or any other convenient 'grouping.' I find the the teachings and deeds of hate mongers extremely repugnant, and fight against them in any way I can. I just don;t see that bigotry in this song, silly as it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Joachim Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:41 PM What ways do you fight against them, cowboy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jeri Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:56 PM Jed, I read your words "I don't see the hidden 'evils' in this song," and thought you meant you didn't see the hidden evils in the song. I was attempting to explain that. I can only do so much, and if you think the song (translated to be about black people) still would come across to those who hear it as "good natured 'poking of fun'" I think it's time for me to give up. I think it's perhaps time for me to give up anyway. I don't understand the hurt the way some do, but understand that it does hurt people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:32 PM Well, I think the song is has no merit what so ever. It's stupid, and annoying and boring. Milton Babbitt on a bad day could have come up with a better piece of useless detritus. Now, how about a similar story that is TRUE and is NON-OFFENSIVE? Why hasn't THIS been made into a song? In the mid-1600's, Tsar Peter the Great of Russian went on a Grand Tour of Europe, meeting foreign dignitaries, establishing trade relations with them and the newly formed Russian nation, and exposing himself to general European society. Peter planned a trip to visit London. The British government assigned architect Christopher Wren (architect of St.Paul's Cathedral in London) to design and build a guest house where the Tsar Peter and several of his official would reside during their stay. Needless to say, this was a high honor for Wren! He took great pride and joy in designing the small but comfortable residence for the Russian leaders. After the royal company had left the house after their stay, Wren went to see the little place. He was horrified to see what had happened! Portrait had been slashed, scribbled on, and the eyes cut out of them. There were large stains on the carpets where Peter & co. poured lamp oil. All the furniture was broken, tossed about, and some pieces were hanging out of the fireplace. And most bizzare of all was the holly hedge! (my sister still get a kick out of this.) Out front of the house was a beauliful ancient holly hedge, 10 feet high and 18 feet deep. Now it was destroyed! Peter had made up a new game and encouraged his men to play along. Peter sat in a wheelbarrow, and had his men take a running start push him and themselves CRASH right through the hedge to the other side. They found it so fun, they decided to have races! When the games were over--no more holly hedge! BTW I hope this hasn't offended anyone. The Russian company were not backwoods bumpkins, many came from noble families, and several weren't even Russian...a Scot, and several Prussians & Germans. Moral of the story? Don't let any guys on their first time away from home into your place! Witness, the US men's hockey team at the Winter Olympics! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Pseudolus Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:42 PM Phew, it took a long time to read this thread!! We live in a very difficult time in terms of diversity, tolerance, and generally getting along. It seems the rules of political correctness change all of the time which baffles the hell out of me. It certainly seems simple to me, treat others as you would have them treat you, be tolerant and accepting of differences between yourself and others, and share those differences in a way that brings you together and not pushes you apart. But this thread has been really enlightening to me and I don't mean just the topic. I have seen the Mudcat Community come together to support against "flamers" and "trolls" before but the attacks in here seemed more towards each other. That, I've never seen before. Whether we like it or not, ANYONE can get to this Forum and there will be opinions and topics that we each may disagree with in a big way. there may be a lot of people who will see the lyrics and say, so what? it's only a song. Clearly there are those who believe the exact opposite. But if someone likes or laughs at this song or even goes out and buys the CD because of this song, does that make him/her a bad person? I don't think so. I don't feel I am in a place to judge anyone but myself. I wouldn't sing the song myself nor would I buy the CD. Would I walk out of a bar or concert based solely on this song? I doubt it. What if someone was to say that he/she was extremely offended to read "Fuck Off" and "Piss up a rope"? I can picture the posts now saying, "Well, don't read the thread then!!" But they were both here in this thread and although I have no problem with the words, I had a problem in how they were presented. I shouldn't have to piss up a rope or fuck off because I disagree with some or all of the posters to a thread. This thread got a little out of control so the poster in another thread that was talking about whether or not The Mudcat was as nice a place as she had heard, definitely had a valid point and concern. If this were the first thread I was exposed to in Mudcat, I doubt I would have come back. Frank P.S. For the record, I won't shut up, fuck off, or piss up a rope for anybody whether I agree with them or not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:38 PM And nobody can make you, neither. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Barbara Date: 18 Sep 00 - 04:29 PM I've got a question. How is this song different from The Day Pat Murphy Died?
Let me also say, Aine, that I appreciate your courage in posting it, and, understanding the pain it causes some of us, I will not learn it/perform it.
Blessings, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Ebbie Date: 18 Sep 00 - 09:30 PM Barbara, to state the obvious: Because it's from an Irish viewpoint singing/teasing about Irish. The stein song is from an adversarial stance. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Airto Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:02 AM Aine, I am very sorry you were put through all of this. The lyrics of this song are even more offensive than I had been led to expect. I felt degraded just reading them. To have felt obliged to go out and buy the CD, listen to that song again and transcribe it must have been very upsetting. To those of you who still think the song is harmless, please look again at Aine's first post on the other thread. Then ask yourselves if there's not some link between what happened to her as a child and the portrayal of gypsies in this song.
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:18 AM Airto, Although I do appreciate Aine's efforts, I think that it was perfectly reasonable for us to want to see what the fuss was all about for ourselves and I do not consider asking that information to back up a statement is pressurising. I have no idea whether Aine has bought the CD or not but I can assure you that she didn't have it at the time of posting the lyrics. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Airto Date: 19 Sep 00 - 01:29 PM Jon, As a principle, I don't deny your right to see those lyrics, and you obviously share my opinion about them. But given that even the title of the song was obviously dodgy, the onus was on those claiming it to be innocent fun to provide them. I feel sad that it was left to Aine to post them. It was clearly going to be very distressful for her. She felt driven to say she would do it, but only if nobody else had done so within a day. She was clearly hoping someone else would step in but that didn't happen. In her position I would feel the need of an hours-long bath after handling that material. Regarding your second point, you must know something I don't. However, to judge from the gaps in the lyrics as posted, and the insertion of the word 'unintelligible' in brackets on one line, it looks to me like they were transcribed from a recording. Not that it really matters. Arthur O'Malley |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 20 Sep 00 - 12:23 AM You know we've really beat this thing to death. We pretty much agree that it's an offensive song. Certainly not one I want to learn anytime soon, no scratch that, at all. But even the CD release is over. We can't even boycott it anymore. Rehashing it over and over is tantamount to putting a KKK rally on the 6 O'Clock News, so as to offend anybody who may have missed the original chance to be offended live and in person. Áine, I'm particularly sorry for all the grief that was dumped on you over this. Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 Sep 00 - 01:05 AM and Branwen...I'll bet you never thought your CD Party thread would take this kind of turn.Hope you told the Blarneys what a shit-storm they stirred up.:>} |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 20 Sep 00 - 04:20 AM Airto, I understand your argument but I work on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty". It is a fairly common concept. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea Date: 20 Sep 00 - 07:14 AM Hey, I've only been here since the start of August and I felt that what I was getting into was something magic. The 2 threads on this topic have been particularly nasty, is the Mudcat falling apart? I don't like animosity. C'mon everyone, hugs and kisses and handshakes all round. Be friends. Please? M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 20 Sep 00 - 02:26 PM I am not sure where to post this thought, so I'll hit both threads. I think it is possible to have an air of hyper sensitivity to an issue. While Black racial humor, can actually be funny and appropriate and NOT hateful - there exists an air of hypersensitivity around black/white issues, and the subject of black ethnic humor is generally (and righfully) taboo. Similarly, in the mainstream Jewish ethnic humor is practiced with great care, by those who know their audiences well, for the same reason; an air of hypersensitvity exists. This same air is NOT generally there, in the part of the world where I come from, for many other ethnic groups, and responsible ethnic humor can be safely practiced among a general audience. It's OK to poke fun at stereotypes of Republicans, and Democrats, Dentists and Lawncare Specialists, Irish and Scots, teenagers and Frat Boys ... again, as long as the humor really IS meant without malice. In the part of the world where I live, I have never had reason to suspect there existed an air of hypersensitivity around Gypsy ethnic humor. If in fact, this song is in bad taste, to my way of thinking, it is so because of that hypersensitivity. As one Mudcatter pointed out; if you want to judge the sensitivity of the song (or lack thereof) replace the word Gypsy with Black, and you will see. Agreed. But if you replace the word Gypsy with Paddy, or Frat Boys you will also see, the intent could be more silly then malicious. We never know the secret scars our neighbors carry, from hurts and wrongs they suffered without our knowledge. It can be difficult to get through this world without inadvertently reinjuring those old hurts of our neighbor, and sometimes we never even know it. I suspect the author of this song has done such a thing - certainly when I chuckled at the song that was the case. But I don't see intentional malice in the song. It's style is much more Animal House then Horst Wessel. |
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