Origins: Bonny Portmore

Subject: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:06 AM

The Forum search seems to be down, so I apologise if there has been a thread on this before (I remember that we have had some significant discussion about the long boats from Antrim and so on).
I jusr ran across in Charles Kingsley's famous 1855 novel Westward Ho, the following snippet of song:

"Oh Bideford is a pleasant place, it shines where it stands,
And the more I look upon it, the more my heart it warms;
For there are fair young lasses, in rows upon the quay,
To welcome gallant mariners, when they come home from sea." In the novel, another sailor complains that the original song is about Sunderland.

What strikes a neophyte is that the first two lines are almost identical to the opening of Bonny Portmore.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:24 AM

The original "Highlander's Farewell to Bonny Portmore" is in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website (in Mudcat's Links).

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:25 AM

The earlier thread is here:  Bonny Portmore: historical background  Though the "Digitrad & Forum Search" isn't working just now, the "Forum Search" under "Quick Links", above, is still ok.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:28 AM

Thanks gents -- you shine where you stand. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 01:55 PM

Thanks Malcolm, I confess that I forgot about John Moulden's quote from Tom Faloon in the older thread. Steve Roud's folksong index notes a copy of "Portmore [or My heart's in the Heilans]" in Peter Buchan's 'Ancient Songs and Ballads', II, p. 151, and with tune in Dean Christie's 'Traditional Ballad Airs'. Neither of these have I seen.

C. K. Sharpe gave the text of a stall copy of a reworked version in 'Additional Illustrations to the Scots Musical Museum', #259. This version was called 'The Strong Walls of Derry'. I can find no copy of either song as a broadside in Steve Roud's indexes or on the Bodley Ballads website.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: John Moulden
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 03:36 PM

This is getting confusing - The strong walls of Derry might be The high walls of Derry as to be found in Robin Morton: Folksongs sung in Ulster or the version sung by Paddy Tunney as "Johnny, lovely Johnny" but there is no connection between Bonny Portmore and "The high walls of Derry" - I think I shall have to stir myself to type out the Portmore text in Sam Henry's papers - very much longer than anything otherwise available

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:19 PM

Any of you wise gents have anything to say about the Bideford/Sunderland song as reported by Kingsley? Is it well known?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE STRONG WALLS OF DERRY
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:41 PM

[from by C. K. Sharpe's reprint of a stall copy in 'Additional Illustrations to the Scots Musical Museum', #259.]

THE STRONG WALLS OF DERRY

The first day I landed, it was on Irish ground
The tidings came to me from fair Derry town,
That my love was married, and to my sad woe;
And I lost my first love by courting too slow.

Chorus.
Let us drink and go hame, drink and go hame,
If we stay any longer, we'll get a bad name;
We'll get a bad name, and we'll fill ourselves fou,
And the strong walls of Derry it's ill to go through.

When I was in the Highlands it was my due,
To wear a blue bonnet, the plaid, and the trews,
Bur now since I'm come to the fair Irish shore,
Adieu Valendary and bonny Portmore.
Let us, &c.

O, bonny Portmore, thou shines where thou stands,
The more I look on thee, the more my heart warms,
But when I look from thee, my heart is full sore,
When I think on the lily I lost at Portmore.
Let us, &c.

O, Donald, O, Donald! where have you been?
A hawking and hunting; gar make my bed clean,
Go make my bed clean, and stir up the straw,
My heart's in the Highlands wherever I go.
Let us, &c.

My heart's in the Highlands, my heart is not here,
My heart's in the Highlands, a chasing the deer,
A chasing the deer, and following the doe;
My heart's in the Highlands wherever I go.
Let us, &c.

There is many a word spoken, but few of the best,
And he that speaks fairest lives longest at rest;
I speak by experience - my mind serves me so,
But my heart's in the Highlands wherever I go.

Let us drink and go hame, drink and go hame,
If we stay any longer, we'll get a bad name;
We'll get a bad name, and we'll fill ourselves fou,
And the strong walls of Derry it's ill to go through.

_______________________
I have neither the song given by Robin Morton, nor the one sung by Paddy Tunney.

Subject: Lyr Add: BONNY PORTMORE
From: John Moulden
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:06 PM

The other song is about a young man who is in process of abandonding his girl friend.

Bruce, your text above begins to make things clearer especially when you see what I've got below. Valendary in the above text is pretty certainly Ballinderry.

I realise from the link provided by Malcolm that I suggested, as I did just above, that I would post this text about 2 years ago - better late than never.

Francis Joseph Bigger, a Belfast solicitor and antiquary, a Protestant home ruler and friend of Roger Casement, published the text - much longer than any other known to me - in an article entitled "Bonnie Portmore" in a little book published for a fund raising bazaar held (I think) in the nearby Glenavy Parish. I didn't note the full details of the book but it is catalogued under Bonnie Portmore in the Catalogue of the Bigger Collection at Belfast Central Library. Bigger says nothing about how he came by the text - there is no tune - and I haven't yet found out. However it is of some interest. There is (I was mistaken) only a scrap in Sam Henry's papers

BONNIE PORTMORE.

Bonnie Portmore, you shine where you stand
the more I think on you, the more I think long.
If I had you now as I had you before,
All the lords in Europe could not purchase Portmore.

There are no lords in Europe such rights can afford
As the Tunnie, Ram's Island, and Bonnie Portmore
There are two lakes, also, for fishing, again,
And the Deerpark, for hunting the head of all game.

Bonnie Portmore, I'm sorry to see
Such a woeful downfall on your ornament tree;
It stood on your shores for many a long day,
Till the long boats of Antrim did float it away.

When "Diana" was launched from the dry land,
Both nobles and lords, they stood looking on;
They sailed round the Deerpark and round Feemore,
And came back to the landing at Bonnie Portmore.

Squire Dobbs was ingenious: he framed a wind-mill
To drain the lough dry, but the lough is there still
His wind-mill and engine, it all was in vain-
The Lough of Portmore he never could drain.

Your heart would have sorrowed for the cry of the swan,
When the water was doomed from. the lough to be drawn
They gathered together, and went off in flocks,
And have taken abode in Magilligan's rocks.

'Twould have been a great pity to have drawn it dry,
For, Bonnie Portmore, you need no supply;
'Tis a harbour for shipping, the bogs doth endure,
A pleasure for strangers, and food for the poor.

Dobbs cut a canal from under the dam,
To drain the wee lough into arable land;
There was ninety-five acres, I dare say, and more
Destroyed from the Tunnie along to Portmore.

The first who lived in it was Carter, I'm sure
The next was Sir Thomas, and, wonderful more,
They were Christians I know, but still they got worse,
And their bones they lie rotting now in the old Church.

The canal it did tremble when the flood it came down,
And when the wind blew the mill it went round :
When the wind it did blow the mill she went right-
What she threw off all day crept under at night.

Then why, Ram's Island, should you still lament
Or why should you yield to their saucy intent
These two lakes united in friendship are bound
It's the opinion of many they went underground.

The labouring men, they wrought by the yard,
They wrought by the day when the work it -grew hard:
And when the men thought their wages were won,
They were farther in debt than when they begun.

When Dobbs' intention it would not prevail,
They gathered more workmen, and cut through the soil
And when he had done, and could do no more,
He then bid farewell to Bonnie Portmore.

In the Tunnie Island there be a great fall,
And thro' Brankin's Park a stone-and-lime wall
And thro' Derryola an open highway,
Before Bonnie Portmore goes all to decay.

Bonnie Portmore, you're fairly undone!
Where once your fine buildings-their equal was none
With your ivory tables, and windows of ash,
Where lords used to dine, but where people now thrash.

The birds of the forest, they now cry and weep,
Saying, Where will we harbour, or where will we sleep?
Since Portmore's fine buildings are gone to decay,
And George's fair island it is cut away.

Now. Bonnie Portmore, fare you well, fare you well
Of your far-famed beauty I ever shall tell ;
When my last day shall come, I'll lie by your shore,
And sweet will my dreams be in Bonnie Portmore.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:54 PM

Thanks John. There's no question that "The Highlander's farewell to bonny port more" and "The Strong Walls of Derry" are a bit corrupted. The leave takeing of a sweetheart gets a bare mention in them. Yours is probably the original from which the others were (loosely) derived. Do you have any idea of the date of it? I've added "Strong Walls of Derry" after "The Highlander's farewell to bonny port more" on my website and cross reference to other songs with overlapping verses. These have little connection to the one you give.

In Joseph Ritson's 'The Bishopric Garland: or Durham Minstrel' is "Sunderland for me", where the last verse goes:

Sunderland's a fine place, it shines where it stands,
And the more I look on it the more my heart warms;
And if I was there I would make myself free:
Every man to his mind, but Sunderland for me.

This verse seems to be rather commonplace. Except for place name this is practically the same as in "The Highlander's farewell to bonny port more" and "The Strong Walls of Derry". Many related songs seem to me to stem from "Shrowsbury for me", c 1665, in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website and on the Bodley Ballads website. In Scarce Songs 1 on my website I've given some of these related songs, and pointed out others. "Bonny Paisley [or 'Udny'- 'Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection', VI, #1089] ]"/ "Boys of Kilkenny", "Come all you little streamers" [untitled American version given, and another cited], "Streams of Lovely Nancy" [latter also on Bodley Ballads website and traditional versions in JFSS].

Once one starts with some verses from one song as the basis for a new song, then adds other verses on, it becomes practically impossible to give any quantative indication of how one song is related to another, or trace any chronological developement. It often seems to be a 'tree' developement (branches), rather than a straight line developement.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM

I should have pointed out for Peter T. that one version, at least, of the Sunderland one, is in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: John Moulden
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:09 PM

Sorry Bruce, I'm guilty of introducing confusion - Johnny Lovely Johnny or the High Walls of Derry has no relationship at all with any of the songs connected with Portmore or My Heart's in the Highlands.

Looking at the FJ Bigger version, which is clearly a longer version of that in "The Irish Song Tradition," I begin to wonder whether we are not looking at two separate songs linked by a couple of common verses. The attempt to drain Portmore lough is a very specific incident and the song concentrates on it. The Highlander's Farewell (for want of a better generic title) has little which derives from it. Which is the chicken? The draining attempt dates from c 1740 according to FJ Bigger.

Mention of "Come all ye little streamers" opens another can of worms - the ballad sheet versions I have are related in a way which indicates that the oldest versions of the song are from north Derry - "The strands of Magilligan" as in Sam Henry. Do you have anything on this Bruce?

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:56 PM

I'm not home now so can't look into "The strands of Malligan" until tomorrow.

My dating of "The highlander's farewell to bonny port more" is that it was copied into NLS MS 6299 before 1750, and the tune "My heart's in the Highlands" was called for in 1747. Although there are older songs in NLS MS 6299, I think all were copied into it c 1740-50, so yours, if contemporary with events, is probably the original, but there's very little overlap, so "The Highlander's farewell" is really a quite different song.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:48 PM

Sorry, I misquoted the title of the Sunderland song above. It should be "Pleasures of Sunderland".

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:26 AM

John, I wonder if you have a tune for the above posting?

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: John Moulden
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:22 AM

The extant tunes are those given in Bunting and in Sean O'Boyle: The Irish Song Tradition, but ABCs of midi notation are not within my skills - as yet. Do you want full refs?

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:48 AM

TtR- I can scan the page from Sean O'Boyle: The Irish Song Tradition and e-mail you as an attachment if you like. (You can also hear the tune under 'Bonny Portmore' in the DT).

Noreen

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:57 AM

There's an ABC of Bunting's "Bonny Portmore", 1840, in file S1.HTM on my website, along with the Scots one "Failte na misog" for "My Heart's in the Highlands". See also "Peggin a Leven" in the Irish tune index on my website.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:19 PM

John, "Strands of Malligan" is certainly one of the family I noted above, but I don't have any specific information on it. Thanks for pointing out the text in Sam Henry's collection. I had overlooked it.

These songs I mentioned probably can't be called variants of the same song, but they have a basic similarity. They all involve a description of a nearly ideal place to live, but not quite what I would call Utopia, because there aren't of the fabulous elements in them that we find in Utopia songs (see 'Utopia' on my website in Scarce Songs 1).

There are other elements added on in various versions: Pretty maids abound for young men to pursue, or the narrator's regret at having to leave the place, and sometimes his sweetheart, or his desire to return to same, or to his sweetheart there. In the untitled one from "An Astronomer's Wife" [seemingly dated to about 1840] on my website, it'a an untrue Polly that appears at the end. In "Green Mountain" in 'Folk Songs out of Wisconsin', p. 120, 1977, brought from England before the American Civil War, the place is 'Mountain Green', and the narrator wants to go back there to his true love.

Gavin Greig gave a short discussion with several texts and excerpts of some songs in 'Folk-Song of the Northeast', Article 32 [and I didn't realize until I just reread it how much I've imitated it]: Bonny Udny/ Paisley, Bonny Portmore/ Boys of Kilkenny.

In JFSS 10, p. 53, [1907] is "Oh, Yarmouth is a pretty town, And shines where it stands", but only the 1st verse is relevant to other songs noted here. "Bristol City" in 'English County Songs', p. 162, 1893, has only a last verse related to these other songs.

I have speculated on my website (and it is only speculation) that we may be missing some early prototype commencing, "On yonder(s) high mountain", where we have several copies of a tune of that title, 1729-31. C. M. Simpson in 'The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music', notes the similarity of the tune to the older "Love Will Find Out the Way". Wm. Chappell gave the tune in PMOT II, 682, and it's on my website as an ABC in file S1.HTM.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:23 PM

Sorry for that double posting. I got an error message on the first one after I hit the 'Submit Message' button, and thought it didn't get posted, so I tried again.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:46 PM

Continuing thanks. Amazing stuff. I am not sure if I would ever be able to sing all the verses, but some would weave in nicely for my students.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 02:47 PM

There are two more traditional version of "The Strands of Magilligan" in Hugh Shields 'Shamrock, Rose and Thistle'm #64.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,John Moulden in Athenry
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:53 PM

Yes, there are lots, my point is, but this is not the right thread - we need a new one. Is that the English ballad sheet and some of the traditional ones are constructed in a way which makes me believe that they diffuse from a version which is located in north Derry - that the north Irish ones are older than the others. However, I'm from home and the data is there.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 04:36 PM

According to Sean O'Boyle's notes on "Bonny Portmore" ('The Irish Song Tradition', p. 50) the 'ornament tree' in the 3rd verse of John Moulden's text above (quoted from that given by F. J. Bigger), and 2nd of the 3 verses of O'Boyle's text, was the huge oak that was blown down in 1760. On the basis of this little bit of evidence "The Highlander's farewell to bonny port more" would be the earlier song.

I agree we need a new thread for these 'near Utopia' songs, with overlapping verses, but haven't the vaguest idea of what to call it. Steve Roud's folksong index gives the same number, #688, to "Come all you little streamers"/ "Green Mountain"/ "Strands of Magilligan"/ "Streams of Lovely Nancy". The latter is on a broadside of 1820-24 on the Bodley Ballads website, Harding B 28(29). The several American "Green Mountain" texts probably derive from the one in 'The Forget-me-not Songster', c 1850.

Broadwood and Fuller Maitland give a version called "Faithful Emma" in 'English County Songs', 1893, that, except for verse order, is practically the same as the untitled American one from 'An Astronomer's Wife' on my website. However, there's no Emma in the song, but an unfaithful Mary (untrue Polly in the American version) in the last verse, and they questioned whether that last verse belonged to a different song.

Subject: RE: Origins of Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,John Moulden still in Athenry
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 07:08 PM

Of course the thread should be called "The Strands of Magilligan". At least it would fit me argument. I'll start it when I get home unless some political opportunist leaps in with another agenda.

Subject: Lyr. Add: Bonny Paisley
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM

Lyr. Add: BONNY PAISLEY

1
Over hills and high mountains,
I have oftentimes been,
Through hedges and broad ditches
I wandered alone.
There is nothing that doth grieve me,
Or troubles my mind,
As the leaving of my sweetheart
In Paisley behind.
2
O Paisley is a fine town,
It shines where it stands,
The more I think on it,
The more my heart warms,
For if I were in Paisley,
I would think myself at home,
For there I have a sweetheart,
But here I have none.
3
O the weavers in bonny Paisley,
They are clever young blades,
When they do go a-courting
Of pretty young maids;
They will kiss them and clap them,
And spend their money free,
Of all the towns in Scotland,
O Paisley is for me.
4
O the lasses in bonny Paisley,
They are pretty young maids,
For they love the jolly weavers,
And despise all other trades.
And if any other tradesman
Should cast a loving eye,
To the arms of a jolly weaver
She will suddenly fly.
5
For it is up into the Hoxieland
I will build my love a bower,
Where neither Duke nor Lord
Shall over her have power.
But if anybody ask you,
"My dear, what is your name?"
Tell them that I'm your jolly weaver,
And your my dearest swain.

Reproduced from B. Olson, another of the old songs of that group from his bag of treasures.
Scarce Songs 1

Subject: Lyr Add: PORTMORE (1828)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM

From Ancient Ballads and Songs of the North of Scotland (Vol. II) By Peter Buchan (Edinburgh: W. & D. Laing and J. Stevenson, et al., 1828), page 159:


PORTMORE.

O Donaldie, Donaldie, where hae you been?
A hawking and hunting, go make my bed seen;*
Gae make my bed seen, and stir up the strae,
My heart's in the Highlands wherever I gae.

Let's drink and gae hame, boys, let's drink and gae hame,
If we stay ony langer we'll get a bad name;
We'll get a bad name, and fill oursell's fou,
And the lang woods o' Derry are ill to gae thro'.

My heart's in the Highlands, my heart is not here,
My heart's in the Highlands a-chasing the deer;
A-chasing the wild deer, and catching the roe,
My heart's in the Highlands wherever I go.

O, bonny Portmore, ye shine where you charm
The more I think on you, the more my heart warms;
When I look from you, my heart it is sore,
When I mind upon Valiantny, and on Portmore.**

There are mony words, but few o' the best,
And he that speaks fewest, lives langest at rest;
My mind, by experience, teaches me so,
My heart's in the Highlands wherever I go.


[*I assume "seen" means "soon"?
**I have no idea what "Valiantny" is, unless vain:vanity::valiant:valiantny.]

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonny Portmore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM

See John Moulden's post of 17 September 2000, where he says 'Valendary in the above text is pretty certainly Ballinderry.' 'Valiantny' here is clearly a name, and would seem likely to be a similar corruption.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonny Portmore
From: Simon Chadwick
Date: 20 May 22 - 04:59 AM

I tried to post this a while back and it got eaten by the system so I am trying again.

I have found and listened to two old recordings of traditional singers singing Bonny Portmore. Both of them gave me a surprise and are relevant to the discussions here.

One is the singer Eddie Butcher. The National Museums Northern Ireland sound archive have a tape of Eddie singing Bonny Portmore in 1970, recorded by Hugh Shields. The archive let me listen to a digitised version of the recording, but I had to travel to Cultra near Belfast and sit in their office to listen! The words that Eddie sings on the tape are pretty much identical to the words that John Moulden posted here on 17 Sep 00. However Eddie's tune is very different - I made a very rough transcription which you can see here (PDF). (I used to be able to write tunes in ABC but I forget how to)

The other is the tape recording of Robert Cinnamond, recorded by Seán O Boyle in 1955. The recording was included on the Folktrax cassette FTX-157 Not a word of no surrender in 1980 but no-one seems to have a copy of this tape! I found a copy in the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library and they emailed me a mp3 transfer but they also made me sign a very legal letter swearing not to let anyone else hear it.
I made a very rough transcription of it which you can get here (PDF). Cinnamond sings very slowly. You can see that this is not the same as what Seán O Boyle published in his 1976 book The Irish Song Tradition (pages 50-51). He says in the book "Robert’s air for the song was obviously an impoverished version of the tune given by Bunting" and the tune in the book is not Robert's tune, it is Edward Bunting's classicised piano tune instead.

I wrote this all up with links and references on my blog. I hope you find this all interesting and useful.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 21 May 22 - 05:08 PM

The Irish Traditional Music Archive has two recordings of Bonny Portmore recorded by Hugh Shields - one from Eddie Butcher, the other from Felix McGarry (fiddle) and sung by his daughter (Glenavy, Co Antrim). I have the Folktrax tape and its CD derivative and would be happy to oblige you, Simon, with a copy of the Cinnamond version, if you contact me on Facebook Messenger.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonny Portmore
From: Simon Chadwick
Date: 27 May 22 - 10:31 AM

Thank you John. I had no luck at ITMA back when I looked - maybe their cataloguing was faulty, or more likely I didn't look properly.

I have not come across the McGarry version - do you have a copy?

I have the Cinnamond recording.

And finally I don't have the dreaded facebook so can't contact you that way...

Subject: RE: Origins: Bonny Portmore
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 04:48 PM

Simon, I'm afraid you'll have to approach ITMA - it is possible that they too may have to evoke copyright restrictions and allow listening only but it may be that a request to Lisa Shields, Hugh's widow, addressed through ITMA, will bear fruit.