Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Richie
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:41 PM

Marion,

Talked to Doc tonight, he will be performing at a concert that my group, Bluegrass Messengers, will also play on Jan. 25, at Guilford College in Greensboro, NC.

If you get me the info I will talk to him about it then.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Marion
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:02 PM

Richie, I was under the impression that blind people could get software to read out loud what was written on the screen and what they type. I do have one blind acquaintance who's into the internet, but I've never asked him for details. Perhaps I shall.

Marion

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Richie
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:41 AM

Since Doc is blind, it would limit his internet capability, however I wouldn't put it past him. He used to work part time as an electrician!
I believe he did radio repairs.

Doc once told me if he wasn't blind he would probably have been an electrician. The great thing about Doc is he doesn't think he different than anyone else.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 02:29 PM

I don't think Doc is. Jack Lawrence is a regular on the Flatpick-L list, when he's not away, touring or whatever. As a matter of fact, he posted his Collings for sale there last year, and I....oh, I told you already? Okay, okay, I'll shut up; stop throwing that stuff....

Peter.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Marion
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 02:22 PM

Thanks Richie. Is Doc into the internet at all? It would be fun to see his thoughts on this thread.

I haven't noticed Marty D. around for awhile. Too busy practicing I guess.

Marion

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 12:37 AM

Could you play like Doc??

Sure. Just follow the rule about how to get to Carnegie Hall !

;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:37 PM

Marty,

There is a genetic potential here. Some have unusually high finger dexterity. Doc, Norman et. al. and in jazz, there are many as well.
The question is can you play in the spirit of Doc? I think to some degree you can but the most important thing is that when you go after the sound you like, you'll find yourself and your own way of playing. Remember that Doc started out playing in ensembles. Clarence Ashley was the band that first brought him attention to the folkies in the New York area. He had been playing in many bands prior to that. He had assimilated his brand of country music over the long haul.

Here's the bottom line....Doc is an inspiration to all of us but the best thing you can do is to become the best musician you can by not just playing technically well but to interact with other musicians and support them as they support you. Doc is not just a machine but a fine interpreter of his music which emanates from a rural tradition of playing. Find your own tradition and your own way and beware of teachers that try to lay a trip on you.

Frank

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Richie
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:05 PM

Doc plays with Doc's Guitar with Thumb and index finger. I've asked him if he ever uses his other fingers and he said, "No." It's hard to believe he can do all the treble notes with one finger!

I know Doc fairly well. There's two pictures of Doc on my web-site:
Click here

-Richie

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Marion
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 03:47 AM

Just want to be clear on this - Doc plays Doc's Guitar with thumb and index only, or with middle finger as well?

Marion

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Marion
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 01:43 AM

Here's a spinoff thread: Flatpicking + 2 fingers

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 02:06 PM

I took in Doc Watson's guitar workshop at the Berkeley Folk Festival in 1964. Two clues from the Doctor himself:--

Fellow asks: "How did you learn to flatpick that fast and smooth?"
The Doctor: "Well, I practice scales about a half an hour every day."

(Sixty some-odd aspiring folk guitarists suck in a breath of air and look horrified)

Fellow asks: "Can you tell us what you do when you are finger-picking?"
The Doctor: "I don't really know how to describe it. It's kind of an arpeggio." (big grin) "'Course, I'm not suppossed to know words like that."

(Sixty some-odd aspiring folk guitarists writhe and moan in great distress)

I guess it's like the old gag about "How can I get to Carnagie Hall?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:57 AM

There's an in-depth article on hybrid picking in this issue of Acoustic Guitar Magazine

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Marion
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 01:11 AM

I'd like to hear more about the idea of hybrid picking that has had some discussion above - using a flatpick held by thumb and index while fingerpicking with other fingers.

Who here uses this technique, and why? What can you do this way that you can't do with normal fingerpicking?

It seems like a neat trick, but it seems like it would be more difficult and less volume-balanced than fingerpicking, without any obvious advantages in what notes can be played.

Thanks, Marion (You see, I'm hoping that next time I tell Willie-O I want to learn hybrid picking, and he asks why I would want to do that, I'll have something smarter to say than "I read somewhere that it exists.")

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 11:04 AM

I believe Happy Traum has the above mentioned video for sale. You can find it on his website here.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: GUEST,dogwater
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 09:51 AM

I was interested to know if anyone knows where this video could be found. I haven't had any luck. Thanks!

Dogwater

MK wrote: 'I have the Smithsonian video put out in the early 90s, with Pete Seeger and a couple of other people, and Doc plays, teaches and breaks down some of his fingerpicking classics. He even tells Pete, he plays in the style of Merle and only uses thumb and index eventhough it's more work."

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 12:29 AM

I did a continuation of this thread. Thanks for bringing it up Marion.

click

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Marion
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 10:58 PM

Thanks Rick. I understand the A example, and it's not so tough. As I mentioned in my "Music sabbatical" thread, I'm collecting ways to bring my playing to the next level, and this sounds like a good strategy - within my capabilities, and I can see the doors it would open.

Marion

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 11:48 PM

Hi Marion.

This is one of these things that is so easy to SHOW someone, but tricky as hell to explain. MK's description may be a bit ambiguous, so I'll try and put it into some other words.

Let's start with a "Long A" chord. (Index barres four strings at the second fret, with the pinky playing the first string at the fifth fret.)

You've got three free fingers (middle, ring and pinky) to play the high leads with, so, starting with that high "A" note (the one that the pinky is on) start playing a descending scale..A,G#,F#,(on the first string), then switch to the second string, fifth fret (E)...and keep going. All the while you're doing this, you keep the index barre on. It gives you he practice of keeping some fingers moving while one stays stationary. Tough, but do-able.

In the key of C, I think you're on the right track. A complete scale isn't neccessary. It's simply learning to pick the closest available appropriate notes, while keeping a bass line going. Doesn't have to be an alternating bass. Sometimes one note is all that's needed (like the C on the fifth string)

Before trying stuff like this, you need to be able to play simple fingerpicking pieces like "Freight Train" or "Railroad Bill", with a definite melody, before you start improvising. I strongly suggest picking up an Etta Baker album. She's great at this style. Good luck.

Rick

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Marion
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 09:51 PM

This is a very interesting thread. I've got to find myself a guitar hero so I can ask "Could I play like ....?".

This advice in particular caught my attention:

"the best advice and instruction that I ever got as far as how to open up the improvisational elements in fingerpicking came from Mr. Fielding during one of our early lessons. That advice was to take any standard major chord (ie: C, G, A, F, E, etc.) and while maintaining an alternating thumb bass, try and play a full scale ascending and descending, around the thumb. Once you've got it down over one key, then switch to another. You will be amazing at what this exercise will open up for you. Not only will it get the fingers stretching, it will help your independence, and open you up to more exploring." (MK)

I want to be sure I understand this right. Suppose I try the key of C. My bass notes would be C on the A string and E on the D string. What would it mean, in this example, to play "a full scale... around the thumb"? Do you mean just playing the C-scale notes that are within reach on the high E, B, and G strings? That wouldn't be a scale in the do to do sense. Or do you mean playing a C to a C, which would mean going higher up the high E string so I would have to shift into some other voicing of the C chord for my bass notes? Or am I supposed to include notes on the three bass strings in the scale?

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 01:58 PM

By the time I read through this thread the first time I had forgotten that you (Marty) are my age--this changes everything. You are too old to play like Doc Watson. If you follow Mr Fielding's advice you will be able to maximize your time left. If you have an excellent teacher it will help, and yes you can enjoy playing the guitar anyway. But no, you will never be able to play like Doc. I've played for thirty+ years and I now have arguably the finest teacher in the land. He's not mentioned in the same breath with Doc, Tony, Norman, Dan (Crary), Russ et al (unless you asked them) but he is that good (and those on this site who know his music would heartily agree). When I sit across from him and hear him play it's evident that he probably learned what notes to play about 25 years ago and learned what notes not to play at least 15 years ago. We are in an age group of diminishing time and diminishing capacity but it doesn't mean we enjoy the music any less

John

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 05:28 PM

I sat in the stands at Winfield in '71-72 and watched Norman Blake, Doc Watson, Dan Crary and Tony Rice thru binoculars....amazing difference in what they did, even to a non guitar player. Doc's fingers moving just enough to clear the strings...Dan's making big bouncy movements...Tony's looking 'different', though I am not aware enough to tell you why.....but Norman seemed to be just flowing...and the most amazing thing was, he was looking at the audience and carrying on some sort of interaction-grinning and mouthing remarks with some folks right in front of the stage WHILE he did all those tricks!...It was like the pickin' was on autopilot, while the other guys were WORKING to get it right, even Doc.

In the years since, I have come to the point where I can identify a Blake number on the radio within a few measures. Whatever he does, it is unique!

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: bbelle
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 04:48 PM

You mean, you DON'T talk that way?

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 04:26 PM

Nothing like leaving out the "'m" out of "I'm" to make you sound like an idiot.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 04:25 PM

I kind of suprised that no one has mentioned the video tapes of Doc's available at homespuntapes.com. There are two of them that I know of. I havn't seen them but I've enjoyed the bluegrass mandolin and Irish guitar videos that I have purchased. I'm sure that one on one experience with a good teacher is invaluable but if there isn't one around then these tapes should run a close second. Especially if you are trying to pick up the style of one particular artist.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: bbelle
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 04:11 PM

Haven't met Doc Watson or seen him play inperson. I have both Norman Blake. And watched him play Church St. Blues, from 5 feet away. The aspect that astounds me is that he makes it look so g-ddamn easy! I'm like ... "I can do that, it's real easy." NOT!

I have found that the pickers who make it look the easiest are the ones who are the most comfortable with themselves.

Let's face it ... seeing Doc or Norman or Rick play, and "thinking" how easy it must be, has to have an influence on wouldbe or shouldbe or couldbe pickers. And what a compliment to those three pickers that they have that ability to inspire others.

I think it's perfectly okay to want to pick like the above three musicians. Most will eventually gain their own style, some won't. There is most certainly a difference between having the "gift" and having the "talent." Doc, Norman, and Rick are gifted. But having the talent will take you to the heights, too.

Me? I wish I had the "gift" for pickin' ... I don't. I just want to be a good picker.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 03:51 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 05:24 PM

Homespun has Blake teaching "Church St Blues" on video--it's still hard.---John

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 06:14 PM

I suspect Tarheel's joking, after all he's full of that country poundcake at the moment (could go for some of that myself...but i doubt a Canadian version would taste the same!) and obviously Marty D (sorry, marty D) did NOT say that in the original post. He DID say:

"I can keep a beat, sing on key, and I know quite a few chords, but if I had one wish it would be to be able to play some Doc Watson songs ALMOST as good as the master."

Seemed like a reasonable and articulate ambition, which several of us have tried to handle. There ain't but ONE Doc....and we ALL know that...as I'm sure marty D does.

Re: Norman Blake. Most of what he does is do-able (with a LOT of investment) but his cross-picking style is HARRRRRD!

Tell ya what Midchuck...'cause I LOVE a challenge...and I'm not back on the road for another two weeks, maybe I'll put Church St. Blues on again and try to figure it out! No guarantees but I'll give it a shot!

Rick

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 05:47 PM

Tarheel,

I don't know if that was a serious comment, or just a smart alecky bit of trashing--

If it was a serious comment, consider that classical performers, pretty much play composed pieces note for note as they are written--dismissing someone who wants to learn to play a piece, note for note, that someone else has written is about the same as saying Why play like Rachmaninoff? We already had a Rachmaninoff and we don't need another--

Although I don't begrudge anyone trivial or non-music related discussion threads, I believe that the whole reason that the Mudcat exists is to allow people who have a serious interest in collecting, learning, and playing music.

Someone who bursts in to a serious discussion about musical techniques and makes derisive and mocking comments about a musician because they are making an effort to learn something is neither appreciated nor welcome--

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: MK
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 04:05 PM

Tar_Heel,
(IMHO) I don't see anything wrong with emulating someone else's style if we find their style of playing appealing. That is how one develops their own style. There has to be a frame of reference and influence in order to start somewhere.

Every great guitar played cites certain influences. As one example Chet cites Merle Travis, as do many others. Doc is the unofficial defacto standard when it comes to flatpicking, and countless players from two or three generations have been influenced by him.

You build up chops by listening to other players. You copy their licks and riffs. Why? Because they sound cool to you and you want to do it too. The trick is in taking these arsenal of chops and licks, patterns, etc....and re-arranging them, distorting them, simplifying them, or adding more complex things to them.....and then, you have your own style.

I agree with you that no one can sound like Doc but no one's gonna leave the room if you start playing like him, at least anyone with any taste.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: tar_heel
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 01:29 PM

WHY DO YOU WANT TO PLAY LIKE DOC WATSON????WE HAVE A DOC WATSON....DON'T NEED ANOTHER!would be a lot better to develop your own style........then folks would be asking!!!could i pick like MARTY???

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 12:36 PM

Rick, that's kind of depressing.

I have said in the past that if I could flatpick like I'd like to be able to flatpick (but am either too busy or too lazy to put in even a tiny fraction of the necessary practice time), I'd sound more like Norman than like Doc or Tony. Now you're telling me that that sound is the least reachable by ordinary mortals.

Phooey.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 12:21 PM

This thread is going in various directions, but let's talk about ME!!! (no, seriously...) I have a minor permanent injury to one of my left-hand playing fingers that I have probably made way too much of, but what is interesting about it is that it has affected everything else I have done in playing until I had a teacher in ways that, thanks to El Rick, I have begun to cope with. This kind of spreading influence is what I would label "misplaced compensation" or BAD STRATEGY. Because I cannot be 100% accurate in placement, not only did I never learn fingerpicking accurately, but have relied on vague strumming to cover for mistakes. I figured that if there was enough noise close enough to the notes I wanted, that would be good enough. What I am now doing is working for a much cleaner sound, and much more practicing, and shifting into open tunings for some things, etc. I think there is a larger lesson here for me, and I have already applied it to a number of my students. I think that people naturally develop strategies to cope with problems. People just develop them because they are alone, and have no choice -- they work for them. But virtually everyone compensates. BUT THE COMPENSATION STRATEGIES ARE OFTEN WRONG OR MISGUIDED. THAT IS WHAT A TEACHER IS FOR: THERE IS A BETTER STRATEGY, LESS EFFORT, ANOTHER WAY AROUND THIS. A very deep lesson I have been learning. As I say, I have been applying it to students with reading and writing problems: Why have they usually solved their problems this way? What were they trying to do that I can improve upon for them? It is quite revelatory.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 10:08 AM

I heartily concur about Norman Blake. There are a couple of things he does that NOBODY else seems to be able to emulate. My student Banjo Bob was getting into cross picking (on guitar) and brought Norman's "Church St. Blues" for me to dis-assemble. Holy shit! I'm not usually flummoxed by a bit of guitar playing (nothing's REALLY hard if you're willing to put in the work and have average skills) but this was diabolical!

Norman has a combination of a VERY strong AND very loose right hand. His cross picking is more like "cross strumming". I figured out what he was doing for Banjo Bob, but I ain't learning how to do it myself. Won't live that long!

By the way (another aside to our original questioner) marty D, had you asked "Can I cross pick like Norman Blake? SERIOUSLY". I wouldn't have jumped in so optimistically. I'd probably have said "when you learn how, teach it to me. Doc's stuff is much more logical.

Rick

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 23 Sep 00 - 10:43 PM

I've noticed a distinct advantage to breaking into the flatpick/two fingers style especially when playing up the neck where the pitch gets inverted. What I mean by that is that, for some reason, when I'm playing fingerstyle it doesn't bother my mind so much to be reaching down (geographically) to get a lower pitch--it's merely part of a pattern. When I reach down with a flatpick my mind can't get used to the fact that the pitch may be lower. Dan Crary plays what he calls a "cascade run" in which, at the seventh and eighth fret you climb the strings in thirds (almost) at each 3rd note you must reach to the string below to sound a lower pitch. I can not do it with a flatpick but I can breeze through it fingerstyle.

I, of course, am pathetic.

John

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Sep 00 - 02:19 PM

Mark, I taped that same show, and had the same feeling that you did. I assume that Don and Phil have some sort of archive, and that was where the stuff came from--I would love to hear and see more (as I would love to hear some of the old radio broadcasts) but I don't know of anything.

By the way, when you see watch those nashville pickers (as you described so well above) it is important to remember that they are playing fills, which means that they don't need to keep the beat. This gives them the freedom to play anything on any beat--This is a whole different style of playing than we are talking about here, and it is actually based much more in jazz guitar technique--

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: bbelle
Date: 23 Sep 00 - 01:32 PM

Mark ... Norman is all over the country now. He worked for a long time with Joan Baez, as well as, Johnny Cash. He's been featured on almost every Cash album. Mostly, his bookings consist of small venues and house concerts. I had the pleasure of hearing and talking with him at a house concert in Crawfordville, about 26 miles southwest of Tallahassee. A nicer, humbler man you will never meet. In some respects, he reminds me of Rick Fielding, because he does what he does because he loves doing it. He gave me a few pointers, which I've tried, but what I really need to do is hold him captive for a month, so I can watch and play along with him. He's kinda cute too.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Sep 00 - 01:22 PM

Yes, Blake seems to have the hang of it. Wonderful musician. I first ran across Norman at Bean Blossom c. 1972. As I recall he wasn't really booked but did guest appearances in somebody's set. In talking with him after one of his performances I learned that he was employed on the Johnny Cash TV show as a rhythm guitarist. I checked out the show when I returned home and, sure enough, there he was way in the background. Kind of like the way Bobby Thompson used to be treated on Hee Haw. I've been a Blake fan ever since.

At that time he was using what Michael K. refered to as "two-fingered flatpicking." He'd hold the guitar way up high with the sound hole aimed at the vocal mic. and just "be all over" that guitar. We'd never seen anyone play just that way before.

M.Ted, I'm well aware of Everly and Rager. I was lucky enough to see Ike in person at the University of Chicago Folk Festival way back when. Unfortunately, the only music of theirs that I have is a video tape I made long ago of the PBS special on the Everly Brothers Reunion Concert. They start out talking about Kentucky and the roots of the music and there are some short clips of Mose and Ike. Not enough to be satisfying, just enough to make you sit up and say "Wow, where can I get more of THAT?" Do you know whether any film or recordings of these two still exist?

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: bbelle
Date: 23 Sep 00 - 03:15 AM

Interesting word "intent."

The finest example of crossover picking, fingerpicking and flatpicking, is Norman Blake. If you have an opportunity to see him live, do. Barring that, if you can acquire any of his videos, do. Of all the famous flatpickers, Norman probably does it the best. The videos are out there, for you to see, if you're interested.

There are also different "camps" that are held in the summer, i.e., flatpicking, dulcimer, mandolin, fiddle, where one can learn a lot. Even if you don't consider yourself a virtuoso, you will learn. You would also have the opportunity to see inperson how it's done and to jam with the best.

One of the best flatpicking camps is run by Steve Kaufman. Held at Marysville College, in Marysville, TN, the last week of June. It's not cheap ... $650, for eight days of classes and jams and concerts, plus room and board. And it's not just flatpickers who attend. There are fingerpickers, singer/songwriters, and others. The instructors this year, to name a few, will be John Carlini, Steve Kaufman, and Marci Marxer (Fink & Marxer).

Rick is a phenomenal musician and if it has strings on it, her can play it. I couldn't wipe Rick's shoes with my guitar playing, but I want to be better. So, I'm going to Kamp Kaufman to start on that road. When I get settled in North Carolina, in the spring, at Rick's suggestion, I'm going to scout around and find a geetar player, whom I like and whom I think is good, and offer to pay for his time as a "teacher."

Ah, life is gettin' good ...

If you're interested, PM me and I will give you further information.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 11:49 PM

Broke it doing a bend??? Rick, it's the string you're trying to bend, not the neck! I suppose every guitar player comes to realize how you can cause yourself undue pain without being aware you're doing it at the time. Still, a break? Awesome.

There is a wonderful fiddler near Kahoka, Mo. named Delbert Spray. He was a good friend of Monroe's and runs his own very popular festival each August. He and his wife Irma are the backbone of the Tri-State Bluegrass Association. Delbert is also a farmer, work that can be rather dangerous. Sure enough, Delbert fell victim to an accident and lost most of the index finger on his left (noting) hand. He was devastated but recovered emotionly and decided he would play anyway. He is still one of my favorite old-time fiddle players and now plays just fine using the three remaining fingers.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 05:10 PM

Wish a few more current catters were interested, but hey, that's life.

Something I just thought of (because of Peter T's comments) is, what do ya do if you've got a wonky finger that just wont do the things it's supposed to ? (Peter does)

I no longer can use my left hand pinky in a significant way (cause I busted it doing a particularly violent string bend a few years ago...and I can't stop playing long enough for it to heal)

Two days into my leather carving hobby, I sliced my left hand index finger with a razor knife. Took seven stiches and couldn't barre for a year. Awfully glad I could use all those thumb chords in the meantime.

'Course perhaps I shouldn't DO violent string bends and play with sharp knives.

Rick

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: MK
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 03:29 PM

I'd also like to add, that for me personally this has been the best thread (pertaining to guitar techniques) since the "Pickers-Give Us A Tip" was conceived.

Eventhough it has evolved into other spin offs and thread creeps I'd really like to thank Marty D for starting it.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: MK
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 03:24 PM

I think what you are describing Mark is essentially correct, and it is also a common technique used by Jazz guitarists as well.

As for patterns, melody etc...as it pertains to fingerpicking, if we're talking along the lines of Travis style, the fundamental is getting the "boom-chick-boom-chick" going with a steady alternating thumb, and developing simple patterns for the other fingers to pick out over the chords. Once you've mastered that you're ready to explore improvisation, while keeping the thumb going.

(Without any intent to kiss ass) the best advice and instruction that I ever got as far as how to open up the improvisational elements in fingerpicking came from Mr. Fielding during one of our early lessons. That advice was to take any standard major chord (ie: C, G, A, F, E, etc.) and while maintaining an alternating thumb bass, try and play a full scale ascending and descending, around the thumb. Once you've got it down over one key, then switch to another. You will be amazing at what this exercise will open up for you. Not only will it get the fingers stretching, it will help your independence, and open you up to more exploring. And if you're a ragtime player, it will make you a better one!

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 02:49 PM

Rick, One wouldn't think it should take two hours for the Blue Jays to beat the Yankees this year. Must have been a lot of commercials. <g>

I'm certainly no expert on advanced techniques and I'm prepared to prove it right here and now. While we're waiting for someone who can actually play the style I've seen the Nashville side men do, I'll try to better explain what I think they're doing.

First, they seem not to be using any pattern. In my experience, patterns are useful as a learning aid for new fingerpickers. They allow one to play nice sounding chord progressions and learn some finger movements at the same time. After finger style has become second nature, one's playing evolves into a bass line and melody rather than a pattern. Patterns, as a way to think about the music, tend to be forgotton. (My experience, anyway.)

The Nashville side men seem to be playing complex flatpicked single-note passages using down-down, up-down, and even up-up pick motions. At the same time, they are throwing in harmony notes, chord fragments, bends and slides by picking up with the occasional right hand finger(s). They seem to do this on a strictly as-needed basis. Perhaps they are really just stringing together well-practiced stock licks where they have carefully choreographed the use of each finger. I can't tell from watching and listening. I suspect the thought process is closer to piano playing than anything else. (It's astonishing how many really good guitar players there are.)

When I fingerpick using a flatpick instead of a thumbpick, I'm really just playing what I always play and just shift the finger assignments. If I'm simulating two-finger (T+I) picking I'll often use just the flatpick and my ring finger for comfort. Keep in mind that I'm not using finger picks and my hand is closer to a fist shape than an arch. (Probably bad form but... what the Hell.) One nice feature of playing this way is that you can play passages that combine flatpicked and fingepicked licks and still get a nice attack for both.

I've never been shown how this stuff should be done, I just noticed people doing it and started messing around. If there is an accepted formal method for all of this stuff, I'd suggest that the student check that out first.

Hope this helped,

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Clifton53
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 02:20 PM

Mark, I mis-spoke, I meant to say a flat pick with thumb and index, and my middle finger for picking, sorry for the mix up. It's not my main way of playing but I like to use it now and then to vary the sound. But again, I find myself pinky-braced when doing this as well, makes for a lot of cramps in my right hand. I've tried just letting my hand hang there but I guess I've been doing it the other way so long, it's hard to change. Today, as Rick suggested, I just used my right hand playing a simple pattern over and over, and just let it hang there, well, it's gonna be a while to break this habit, tell ya the truth, it don't sound as good, but my right hand sure feels a lot better.

Peter T., I do it now and then when playing a simple blues tune, say in E or A. I find I can play the shuffle or bass notes with the pick and use the middle to pick the treble strings and add some fills. Working on getting my dad-blasted pinky off the top of the guitar, as this bracing makes my ring finger fairly useless for picking. I also find myself doing it a lot when jamming with friends. It pretty much pisses them off because they've never tried it, and like Rick said, it's no harder than any other technique, once you start learning it.

MTed, I think I caused the mis-understanding here by saying index instead of middle fingers. Sorry for the mistake. Its just a flat-pick with thumb and index, and the middle for picking.

Rick, As I said, my ring finger is pretty useless, but I've been trying to get it into the action, trouble is, I've been 3 finger picking for so long, I can't seem to get it going. But your suggestions are great and I think I have the patience to exercise them. Today I drove my dog nuts for a half-hour trying to free up my right hand, played the same little pattern over and over, it's gonna be a while.

Oh, and Rick, why were you watching the Blue Jays game when my Giants were clinching the NL West? Tsk Tsk!

Thanks gentlemen, and again, sorry for the mix-up.

Clifton53

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 01:05 PM

I'd like to see someone try and answer this one in an understandable way--

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 12:54 PM

What is (are) the normal pattern(s) for flatpick and fingers (say in 4/4)? Are you trying to use the middle and ring fingers to reproduce the patterns that fingerpickers accomplish with thumb and index (plus middle, depending), just moved down a finger? Or something else?
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 12:03 PM

Clifton, What else do you do with your index finger while holding a flatpick? When I hold a flatpick, my index finger is used up doing that.

If you watch the Nashville musicians on television closely, you'll see that they all seem to combine finger plucking with flatpicking. Many of the signature licks you hear in country music can only be done this way. They aren't simulating Kentucky thumb picking, it's really a different approach. I think, as Rick suggests, that the ring finger is perhaps the most natural "first choice" of fingers to use with this style. The middle finger is probably next in usefullness but the pinky should not be ignored.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 11:34 AM

Been a bit busy lately, but I'm glad to see your not letting the tech. stuff throw you marty D.

Clifton. Try to put your ring finger to use as well, when you use the flat pick. What you describe is a tough technique. I don't know more than a couple of local players who do it. Funny thing is, when you're learning how to do it, it's no harder than anything else. The key though is (I AM a broken record about this) practice the RIGHT hand FIRST (with minimal left hand movement) until it's second nature. When you add the left hand fingering it will come SO much easier.

As an example...I'm learning a pretty complex "forward-backward" banjo roll right now. I put the mute on the banjo and play nothing but this roll (over an open "G" chord) while watching 7 innings of the Blue Jays beating the Yankees. That's a solid 2 hours. (and as I said, I think that's crucial every day while learning something) But now I've got that roll for life.

Marty D. Glad to hear yer getting intrigued. I'd like to explain once again about the "good" guitar. (still don't know what you've got) It's not JUST because you need a pro instrument for playing ease, tone, sense of commitment, and self-satisfaction....but it goes a long way to showing experienced players that you meet along the way, that you (like them) are a SERIOUS student of acoustic music. Once again, I'm not sure what your financial situation is (mine could be described as "lifetime precarious!") but remember that a 2000 dollar Martin will ALWAYS be worth at LEAST 2000 dollars, so you'll never lose money on your investment....even if you stopped playing entirely. It's worth the scarifice.

Rick

Subject: RE: Could I play like Doc Watson? seriously.
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 05:25 PM

Well done, boys, I think we've recruited another one!!