Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?

Subject: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Marion
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:31 PM

Hi. I play a normal fiddle, unamplified, and I play it a lot. I've been enjoying the fact that I can't hear the phone ring while I'm playing, but I'm starting to wonder if it's safe to have this loud instrument right under my ear all the time.

Should I be worried? I play approximately two hours a day.

Does anybody use ear plugs, or a left ear plug, while practicing their fiddles?

I suppose an alternative would be a muting clamp, but I don't like the sound of my fiddle with a silencer on it - and I imagine that with ear plugs I'd hear the same quality just at a lower volume.

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:19 PM

"I am a deaf fiddler and far from my home"

I know Dave Swarbrick has had trouble with his ears, but I've never heard that it's a common problem for fiddlers playing at normal unamplified volume. In my experience, when they compain about health problems it's muscle pains and joint pains and neck pains and back pains they talk about.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 08:20 PM

The only pain in the ear I got from my violin was the whacking I got at home when I practised, and the ear bashing (verbal) from my teacher when I didn't!

Don't know of any deaf serious violinists, and I suspect that Swarb's deafness has a lot more to do with sticking your head in a speaker than playing fiddle.

LTS

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 08:44 PM

There were times when my daughter was just learning to play the fiddle that I would have welcomed a wee bit of deafness. :>) DougR

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:26 PM

From someone who formerly oversaw the hazardous noise/hearing protection program at a couple different military installations - you aren't likely to have a problem.

OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Organization) here in the US has said hazardous noise is considered to be above 85dB. (Not a "magic number" but one that they've determined is the most reasonable.) If you're exposed to that level of sound, or higher, for 8 hours a day, it could damage your hearing. 85dB is roughly what you're in when your in a noisy bar and have to should to be heard by someone standing about 3 feet away. I doubt fiddles get much louder than that. (Although we once measured a local singer at 110 db.) Now take into consideration time is a factor, not just sound level. The less time you spend in loud environments, the less damage. I will say people's sensitivity to noise varies. Some people can stick their heads in speakers for years with no problem, and some lose hearing from driving their cars a lot.

If your ears ring, or if things sound muffled after you've been playing, it's a sign that something's been at least temporarily damaged.

I wouldn't think you should have a problem with hearing loss, but you can try the ear plug. It may take a while to get used to it. You can take breaks in your playing. And if you go to a session, don't sit near anyone who sings at 110 db!

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From:
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 10:41 PM

From talking to fiddlers whom I know - they feel that yes, having the fiddle up close to the ear DOES reduce the ability of that particular ear to hear.

Compared to the ones who play fiddle from their chest, they have some amount of hearing loss.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: winniemih
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 10:58 PM

This topic interests me greatly, as I recently started to play the fiddle ( I love it and can spend hours playing) and also have some preexisting hearing loss from indiscriminant use of power tools in my younger, more foolish, years. I don't wish to aggravate the condition. I wear hearing aids and prefer to play without them, or with the volume turned down. I would like to know if I should consider ear protection. I did recently discover the practice mute ( or "silencer" as I like to call it, as in the wrong hands some fiddles can be lethal instruments). I purchased one in preparation for an incoming house mate, who may not fully appreciate my early morning serenades. It cuts the sound by over half. I can play watching T.V., adding my own soundtrack, and still hear the dialogue. I was cautioned by an expert fiddler that using the mute continuously can be harmful to the instrument, and you should spend at least equal time playing at normal volume to reverse the effects of damping the vibrations. I don't know the science at work here but it sounded reasonable to me. Also there are smaller devices to decrease the sounds slightly that fit behind the bridge, useful for playing in a group with less vociferous instruments. I don't know if these would be useful to minimize potential hearing loss. Hope to hear more on the subject.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:48 AM

My dad and I discussed this recently and we both felt there was a difference in how well we can hear with our nearfiddle ear and the offside one. It's funny though. I mean to have them checked by a doctor, but I swear sometimes I hear better in the one that's always been so close, i.e. the left. I also wonder if that's because it's the one I use the most, as in on the phone, etc. I do tink it is natural for me to *cock* that hear when listening for something because it's second nature to do so from playing the violin from such a young age.

Somewhere, we discussed this in the last year, but I cannot remember where and the super search doesn't seem to want to work. If I find it, I'll post it.

kat

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:12 AM

Only if you stick the bow in your ear when playing. Yours,Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:11 AM

...........or the entire fiddle.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: guinnesschik
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:20 AM

I can't hear the phone ring when I'm playing, either. Or, I think I hear the phone. I believe this problem is because the phone and the fiddle are in the same tonal range. My phone rings in "A."

I can still hear my kids whispering all the way across the house when they're supposed to be asleep, and Himself playing video games into the wee hours, also from across the house.

And I truly love the feel and sound of 'er under my ear, and in over 20 years of playing , I don't think I've lost any hearing.

I have become more selective about what I hear. ;-)

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 09:33 AM

Please note, I'm coming at this from a "worst possible" viewpoint. I don't really think hearing loss is very likely from playing a fiddle, but I don't know what level of noise a fiddle is capable of an inch or two away from an ear. A lot depends on the way you play (how long, how loudly, how close to the fiddle you are) and your sensitivity to sound. Add in other exposures to noise - driving loud vehicles, listening to music, mowing the lawn, hammering nails, shooting guns, etc. Even if you'd have a hearing loss, it would probably take years to show up.

A loss in hearing is normally specific to certain frequencies. If you lose hearing in the higher frequencies (higher pitched sounds) from power tools, you can't kill the same nerves twice. (It can get worse with continued exposure, though.) If you're exposed to high levels of sound at different frequencies, such as the mid-range and lower ones produced by music, and you have good hearing in those ranges, you can lose hearing in those frequencies. If you're concerned, you can ask your doctor for annual hearing tests.

Keep in mind there are rock musicians out there who've played for years and have "perfect" hearing. It's not just the level of sound, but the amount of time a person is exposed.

Now I'm curious about how loud a fiddle is. I wonder if anyone around here has one of those electronic tuners with a sound meter and could measure the fiddle from ear distance.

From OSHA Standard for Occupational Noise Exposure. My first experiment with preformatted text.

           TABLE G-16 - PERMISSIBLE NOISE EXPOSURES (1)
  ______________________________________________________________
                              |
    Duration per day, hours   | Sound level dBA slow response
  ____________________________|_________________________________
  8...........................|                    90
  6...........................|                    92
  4...........................|                    95
  3...........................|                    97
  2...........................|                   100
  1 1/2 ......................|                   102
  1...........................|                   105
  1/2 ........................|                   110
  1/4  or less................|                   115
  ____________________________|________________________________
    

Footnote(1) When the daily noise exposure is composed of two or more periods of noise exposure of different levels, their combined effect should be considered, rather than the individual effect of each. If the sum of the following fractions: C(1)/T(1) + C(2)/T(2) C(n)/T(n) exceeds unity, then, the mixed exposure should be considered to exceed the limit value. Cn indicates the total time of exposure at a specified noise level, and Tn indicates the total time of exposure permitted at that level. Exposure to impulsive or impact noise should not exceed 140 dB peak sound pressure level.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:34 PM

Been playing two years and not noticed any problems.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 04:49 PM

Since I was born with bad ears, it's difficult to tell.....

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:37 PM

The way I play it, it's bad for my audience's ears!.....but I shall improve!

Rick

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: bigchuck
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 06:50 PM

Well, in many years of playing with fiddlers I haven't seen one damage her own ear yet.....however the ears of bandmates could be a different story, depending on her bow control.
Sandy

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:34 PM

Try holding the fiddle under your chin.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: death by whisky
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:45 PM

Ive been learning for a year(with a teacher).The volume is'nt the problem,but wether I've got the fingering right,in which case,how to disguise that.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: IanS
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 11:57 AM

In my experience classically trained violinists play much louder than fiddler's - they deliberately use long bow strokes whereas a fiddler aims more for a rhythmic danceable sound which has more transients.

From this observation alone I would conclude that orchestral players should suffer more than fiddlers from violin related deafness. As I have never heard of such problems I think you can assume that you should be okay.

I've played fiddle on a regular basis for over 15 years now and my hearing still seems okay to me - mind you sometimes I don't hear my wife when she asks me to do some thing (especially when I'm humming a tune to myself - perhaps that's what you mean by deafness :) ).

Ian S

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Marion
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 11:29 AM

Thanks for your answers everybody. I'm less concerned now, though I think I'll plug my left ear during long, routine practice sessions.

There have been a few posts in different threads lately saying that to have a professional approach to music, you should be able to play whether you feel like it or not. So I tried playing fiddle when I had a mild headache, and that was when I was impressed by how much volume I was putting so close to my head.

One thing I've just learned: playing fiddle with plugs in your ears is much nicer than playing with your ears open and a silencer on your fiddle.

I have a musican friend who routinely uses ear plugs when he goes to a concert or bar. He says he can still enjoy the music just fine and get along in conversation, but is protecting his assets.

Marion

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 01:02 PM

Winniemih,
According to my 'hearing doctor' if you already have some hearing loss caused by overexposure to loud noise, then your ears can be further damaged by noises that would not harm a person with good hearing.

So use your ear plugs.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

Interesting thread. Playing fiddle can also be bad for your ego. Especially when you think you've got a piece learned and then completely blow it by being out of time or out of tune !

On the purely physical side, what is the nature of the damage done by loud sounds ? Does the little membrane in the inner ear get stretched, get thicker or thinner, or what ? I'm especially intrigued by the idea that once harmed the ear is more susceptible.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Hardiman the Fiddler
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 01:53 PM

I thought it was that playing the fiddle was bad on the ears of the people in the next room who are listening to you practice.

Hardiman

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 01:55 PM

No, don't sweat it. The Missus says I'm losing my hearing too. All I say is "HuH?" as I put my fiddle down. And there are times I don't want to hear the phone ring, anyway.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 02:02 PM

Les,

it's the nerves in the ear that die. Don't know why damaged ears should be more susceptible though. But that's what my quack says. Perhaps the nerves just get into the habit of dying or maybe those that are left are partially damaged already - curious ain't it. All I know is that I have to wear these dirty great ear muffs when operating any power tools now.

Subject: RE: Can playing fiddle be bad for your ears?
From: Captain Swing
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 04:12 PM

Pardon?