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Subject: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Sean Belt Date: 20 Sep 00 - 07:17 PM While playing at a session the other night, someone wondered if "Soldier's Joy" was strictly an American tune or not. It seems to me that I've heard somewhere that the tune is Irish in origin, but may go under another name on that side of the Atlantic. So, I thought that if anyone can confirm or deny this notion, it would be the crowd at the Mudcat. The floor is now open.... - Sean |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 20 Sep 00 - 08:32 PM Not of American origin. Good tune, terrible song, c 1760. See both on my website, file Scarce Songs 1 and it's file of tunes as ABCs, S1.HTM. www.erols.com/olsonw |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: The Shambles Date: 21 Sep 00 - 01:50 AM I have heard that is was Thomas Hardy's favourite tune? |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GeorgeH Date: 21 Sep 00 - 05:41 AM Certainly it's one I associate with Hardy, too. Which doesn't take its history back very far but suggests a UK origin is more likely . . G. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Skipjack K8 Date: 21 Sep 00 - 05:47 AM Whilst I can believe the tune is an old European invention, the Michelle Shocked version of a song called Soldier's Joy has it as morphine addiction in the US Civil War. "What the bullet cannot kill, the needle will" I don't know anything of the origin of either the tune, or that particular song Skipjack |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Irish sergeant Date: 21 Sep 00 - 11:29 AM Sean: The version i have on CD by the Second South Carolina String Band Also mentions the Morphia addiction. It is my understanding that the tune was originally a Scottish fiddle tune that was adapted to a march sometime previous to the American Civil War and probably before the Mexican War. Other than that anytyhing I have is sketchy at best. It's a great song. I play it at encampments and the crowd seems to like it. Good luck in your search. Kindst reguards. Neil |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Sean Belt Date: 21 Sep 00 - 12:59 PM Thanks all for the information. Espescially GUESTBruceO and his AMAZING website. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Marion Date: 21 Sep 00 - 11:32 PM Great Big Sea (Newfoundland Celtic rock band) do a song called "Billy Peddle" and the melody is almost identical to Soldier's Joy.
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,John Leeder Date: 22 Sep 00 - 01:54 PM I just found a site that says the tune "is traced to McGlashan's 1781 edition of Scots Measures". |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 22 Sep 00 - 02:15 PM Your source didn't trace it very far, and the original issue of McGlashan's 'Scots Measures' seems to have been 1778 (copy in Library of Congress, with an adv. pasted in, noting for sale Aird's 'Airs' in one volume). That and another early Scots source are noted in the Scots tune index on my website. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,John Leeder Date: 22 Sep 00 - 02:30 PM Soory, Bruce, I overlooked your earlier post. My apologies for time-wasting. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 22 Sep 00 - 02:34 PM Neither McGlashan's 'Scots Measures' (1778) nor Campbell's 'Reels' (1778) contain the song (no great loss). |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 23 Sep 00 - 05:36 AM the tune is played in Norway and the Orkneys too. I was told it was a "typical Norwegian reel", though to me it didn;t sound like other Norwegian fiddle music. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 23 Sep 00 - 09:34 AM Also in Sweden, where it's called Engelska ("English Dance"). |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Irish sergeant Date: 23 Sep 00 - 11:44 AM Oh that Soldier's Joy does seem to get around. Great threat guys and very informative. Thanks Neil |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,FP Date: 23 Sep 00 - 12:36 PM I have seen it written down entitled 'the King's Head'. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 23 Sep 00 - 01:49 PM Yes; that's an alternative title. There are earlier discussions at Soldier's Joy Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy? and Need lyrics to old fiddle tunes I've heard a Shetland version that sounds even more Scandinavian than the Swedish one, come to think of it. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Cool Beans Date: 23 Sep 00 - 02:09 PM Don't know if it was his favorite tune but Thomas Hardy does devote a couple of affectionate paragraphs to it in "Far From the Madding Crowd" (Chapter 36). The passage starts out: "As to the merits of 'The Soldier's Joy' there cannot be, and never were, two opinions. It has been observed in the musical circles of Weatherbury that this melody, at the end of three-quarters of an hour of thunderous footing, still possesses more stimulative properties for the heel and toe than the majority of other dances at their first opening..." In Hardy's major novels you'll find references to "The Foggy, Foggy Dew," "Devil's Dream," "Haste to the Wedding," and dozens of other tunes. There's a CD from England called "Songs of Thomas Hardy's Wessex" that contains a bunch, although not "Soldier's Joy." It's Saydisc SDL-410.
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar Date: 24 Sep 00 - 05:49 AM Volume 8 of the Greig Duncan Collection of songs collected in the North east of Scotland some 100 years ago is to be published in a few months, and will include several short sets of words (none very distinguished) to the tune of Soldiers Joy. One popular theory is that these little lyrics seem to have been attached to be sung while dancing to the tune - see an old thread re Auntie Mary Had A Canary for some examples. Attaching new words to old tunes is an old Scottish pastime - Robert Burns was one eminent exponent. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Irish sergeant Date: 24 Sep 00 - 05:49 PM Thinking of that, the morophine addiction references may be late Civil WAr but I don't know exactly when the use of morphine began. Any ideas out there on that? Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Giac Date: 24 Sep 00 - 08:30 PM There's a brief history of morphine here and does seem to indicate that, while opiates had long been in use, injections of morphine, and the subsequent addiction, began with the U.S. Civil War.
Possible scenario (?): Someone plays a tune called Soldier's Joy. A veteran says, "I'll tell you what real Soldier's Joy is..." It's a thought. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Sean Belt Date: 25 Sep 00 - 10:26 AM The references to morphine are a surprise to me. I'd heard that the Joy referred to in the title was the soldier's pay day or his wage packet. Of course, then he could use that to buy morphine I guess, so we're back to it, eh? ;-) - Sean |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Blind desert Pete Date: 07 Dec 00 - 03:21 PM soldiers joy isa mixture of morphine and beer.as in the lines. 25 cents fore the morphine 15 cents for the beer,25 cents for the morphine, gona drink me away from here. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: blt Date: 07 Dec 00 - 03:43 PM My understanding of the morphine connection in the lyrics had to do with technology--the invention of the hypedermic needle--and the use of morphine as a painkiller during field surgery, vs using morphine as a "recreational drug." However, there were no laws at the time of the civil war against the use of morphine, and morphine, along with cocaine, were common ingredients in patent medicines sold at the time. This always created a sadness, for me, about the lyrics--addiction created unwittingly, along with the horror of the war itself. |
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Stewie Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:39 PM There's lots of information at the Fiddler's Companion. Hasn't managed to trace it back as far as Bruce has however - earliest date given is 1778 and no mention of the single sheet song that Bruce refers to in his Scarce Song file. --Stewie.
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Subject: RE: Origins of 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Bruce O Date: 07 Dec 00 - 08:25 PM Single sheet songs with music is still a much neglected subject. Tunes are obviously song tunes on these, and only the ones that also make good instrumental tunes get in music books, but with the words deleted. That's why histories of tunes derived primarily from instrumental collections don't turn up the origins of these, like "Soldier's Joy".
I found something in the same vein one time on a visit to Washington state (Gig Harbor). I heard a local bluegrass group do what was obviously "Grandfather's Clock", but it was altered a bit and one couldn't really sing the song to it. After the set was over I asked them about the tune, and they said they'd learned it from another bluegrass group, and they hadn't known there were ever any verses to the tune.
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sugar Hill, Soldiers Joy lyrics? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 08 Mar 01 - 10:59 PM There have been a number of lyrics to "Soldier's Joy" including a song by Robert Burns. The original lyrics are in the Scarece Songs 1 file on my website. Click |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sugar Hill, Soldiers Joy lyrics? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 08 Mar 01 - 11:49 PM You can find "Soldier's Joy" in Andrew Kuntz's index too, with many verses. A bit of my stuff is there too (search for my name), but not my Soldier's Joy. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SOLDIER'S JOY (Jimmie Driftwood) From: GUEST,reecew@excite.com Date: 09 Mar 01 - 11:10 AM Marshall: Jimmie Driftwood's lyrics for Soldier's Joy start off like this:
Some Continental soldiers on the bivouac etc. There's a couple of versions of these lyrics in the DT, but one has a lot of misspellings in it.
Best wishes, |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Richard Patterson Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:17 PM Seems like I've stumbled onto this thread a few years late, but if anybody's interested "Soldier's Joy" in the 18th Century probably referred to spruce beer rather than the mid-19th Century association with morphine. In the British Army each soldier was entitled to about a half gill of rum per day. The catch was, there was an "off reckoning" from the soldier's meagre pay to cover it's cost (as there was for much of his uniform beyond the basic forst issue upon recruitment). Should the soldier's in any given army allow the issue of locally brewed spruce beer in place of the rum ration, there would be no "off-reckoning" for it, and so it is believed to be the source of the phrase "soldier's joy". I've actually found among the names on the Cambridge Parole (which lists Gen. Burgoyne principle officers, aides, and staff after they surrendered at Saratoga in Oct. of 1777), a guy named Powell, who was listed as "asst. commissary of beer", and another guy named McKenzie, with the even more arcane title of "deputy asst. commissary of beer". The actual Commissary of Beer was in Montreal and Powell and McKenzie were detailed to brew spruce beer in the immediate rear of Burgoyne's Army as it worked it's way down from Canada in their failed attempt to take Albany. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: akenaton Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:30 PM Thanks for that interesting post Richard... Guests ARE useful and informative..Everybody lay off the Guests ...Ake |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: curmudgeon Date: 21 Jan 04 - 05:20 PM In Burns' cantata, "The Jolly Beggars," he gives the tune for the first song, that of the beggar/soldier, as "Soldiers Joy." Further, I heard it sung to this tune on a reel-to-reel tape back in the late 50s. It works very nicely if sung with a steady martial cadance -- Tom |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Gareth Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:04 PM Hmmm ! - Just a coment. The verse - from DT "Soldiers Joy" = "John Paul Jones in an old tin can Scoured the ocean like a fightin' man The British said "Paul are you ready to strike" Paul said "I'm just beginning to fight"" Old Tin Can - Tin can followed the American rebelion by about 40 years. Tin can was, and maybe still is, US Navy slang for a "Destroyer" I think the folk process might have altered the original verse. If in fact the ancestory of this verse dates from the original. Any thoughts ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:33 PM Since the lyrics were composed by "Jimmy Driftwood," writer of "The Battle of New Orleans," they're most likely from the [19]50s or 60s, which explains the tin can, the stud poker, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Mark Ross Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:43 PM There is a recording of Sam Hinton at the San Diego Folk Festival playing SOLDIERS JOY on the mouth harp. He mentions that originally it was an English tune called the EAGLE'S NEST. Mark Ross |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Mitch the Bass Date: 22 Jan 04 - 04:22 AM Get's everywhere. Take a look, and listen to La Joie du Soldat at the National Library of Quebec at: http://www.bnquebec.ca/musique_78trs/mt731.htm Mitch |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: masato sakurai Date: 22 Jan 04 - 06:55 AM Two takes of Joseph Allard's "La joie du soldat" (1929, 1937) are at The Virtual Gramophone. Several sheet music editions are at American Memory (also with some recordings) and Levy Sheet Music Collection. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Arkie Date: 22 Jan 04 - 10:54 AM Somewhere I once saw a reference to Soldier's Joy as being related to a French Quadrille. I have not been able to locate that source of late though. It has been several years since reading that. While I cannot remember the French name it was not "La joie du soldat". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jan 04 - 03:28 PM I think maybe we should include the Traditional Ballad Index entry in this thread. -Joe Offer- Soldier's JoyDESCRIPTION: Dance tune with verses; "I am my mama's darling boy...." "Grasshopper sitting on a sweet potato vine...." "Fifteen cents for the morphine, 25 cents for the beer/Fifteen cents for the morphine, gonna take me away from here"AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1924 (recording, Sid Harkreader & Uncle Dave Macon) LONG DESCRIPTION: Dance tune with verses; "I am my mama's darling boy/Play that tune called Soldier's Joy"; "Grasshopper sitting on a sweet potato vine/Along come a chicken and says 'You're mine'"; "Fifteen cents for the morphine, 25 cents for the beer/Fifteen cents for the morphine, gonna take me away from here" KEYWORDS: dancing nonballad drugs FOUND IN: Britain US(All) Scandinavia RECORDINGS: Arkansas Woodchopper [pseud. for Luther Ossenbrink] & his Square Dance Band, "Soldier's Joy" (OKeh 06297, 1941) Blue Ridge Highballers, "Soldier's Joy" (Columbia 15168-D, 1927) Fiddlin' John Carson, "Soldier's Joy" (OKeh 45011, 1925) Sid Harkreader w. Uncle Dave Macon, "Soldier's Joy" (Vocalion 14887, 1924) Kessinger Brothers, "Soldier's Joy" (Brunswick 341, c. 1929) New Lost City Ramblers, "Soldier's Joy" (on NLCR07) (on NLCR16) Aulton Ray, "Soldier Joy" (Gennett 6205, 1927) Gid Tanner & his Skillet Lickers, "Soldier's Joy" (Bluebird B-5658, 1934; RCA Victor 21-2168, 1947) (Columbia 15538-D, 1930; on Tanner2) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Love Somebody, Yes I Do" (tune) SAME TUNE: My Stetson Hat (File: Ohr083) Notes: The quintessential nonballad, but I've indexed it because it is cross-referenced elsewhere. Reputed to have been found around the year 1000, but... Morphine was reputed to be called "soldier's joy" during the American Civil War, but the title is older than that. - PJS File: RcSoJoy Go to the Ballad Search form The Ballad Index Copyright 2003 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,croc Date: 22 Jan 04 - 04:38 PM Erudite chap who came to our school played it top the children and said it was Kentish. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Guy Wolff Date: 22 Jan 04 - 05:48 PM I always heard that verce around Connecticut to go " 25 cents for the morphine 15 cents for the beer,25 cents for the morphine, gona DRAG me away from here." depressing EH On a side note We found a nice copy of Soldiers Joy in the copy book of one Morris Woodruff a music student at the Litchfield female acadamy dated 1803. so the tune was popular enough to be copied from popular dance tunes of the day in Litchfield Connecticut . Very popular and early in New England.It seems lots of tunes of that era Popular in New England were of Scotish origin. All the best Guy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST Date: 04 Mar 05 - 10:52 PM My father, who died a few years back at 73, was an afficionado of old folk tunes, particularly dealing with war, as a professional soldier and a guitar player from Middle Tennessee. About everything he knew, I believe he got from an old black gentleman who had not traveled much, but got his tunes from get country togethers. This was the man who taught my Dad to pick. Every verse he ever sang of Soldier's Joy -- a favorite of my brothers and me, related to the Revolutionary War (and there were far more than I have seen anywhere on the internet). I remember there always being a serious drop at the chorus, which we never thought the old man cuold make, but he got down there. My Dad's voice was low. I think he played the tune in C or something. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: M.Ted Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM DADFFGHDGHFDGFDDGFHDHGFDGFADDGDGFDGFDGFD©ìëGdgfdgfdgfdgfdgdgfdfgdgfdgfddgfhdgfdghfdghfdhfgdhgfdfgdhgfdhgfdgfdfdhgfdfgdhrdfrhthdfrtyhguyuhjhljhjhjhjhjhjhjhjhhjhhjjhjhkjhjkhjkhkjhkjfhfjhgfhgfhgfjhfjhgfgfjgffjhffgfgffgfgfg |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 Mar 05 - 03:36 PM Now, there's an insightful comment! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'? From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 12 Mar 05 - 09:01 AM The widely known Love Somebody / I Am My Mama's Darling Child uses the first strain of Soldier's Joy, but most versions don't use the 2nd (high part). Verses follow from Georgia banjo picker Land Norris' sly 1920s Okeh recording (excuse me if this duplicates anything in the DT). Second strain is sometimes used for "Eyes are blue" verse: I love somebody, yes I do, I love somebody true, I love somebody, yes I do, I love somebody but I won't tell who. [some sing it "I don't love you."] I am my mama's darling child (3) I ain't gonna marry for a good long while. I am my mama's darling pet (3) I'm not a-gonna marry for a good long whet. Eyes are blue, cheeks are red, (3) Lips as sweet as gingerbread. A crosseyed dog and a one-eyed hoss (3) My old lady is the boss. NOTE: "whet" means yearning, as in honing. But you could make it a little less archaic by singing "a good while yet,"if you think hearers won't get it (they most likely won't, unless they're DTers of course. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Gordon Reddell Date: 24 May 11 - 12:49 PM Nearly every Morris Dance side and ceilidh band in the UK uses Soldiers Joy. The Yetties recorded it using Hardys violin on ALD 4010. Ally McBain recorded it with massed violins.Thw swedes play it,and I have heard it on a latvian recording. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 May 11 - 02:31 PM Strangly, it is played in The Beech ......... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 24 May 11 - 03:18 PM I'm sure I read somewhere a direct quote of Thomas Hardy's where he said or wrote of Soldier's Joy that it was the tune he favoured above all others (scribbled in his tune book perhaps?) and someone else (?) commenting that he could play it over & over without tiring of it. Incidentally, the Guardian has reprinted his obit, written by Alfred Noyes (you have to scroll down, but the whole page of links is interesting): http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/from-the-archive-blog |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Tattie Bogle Date: 24 May 11 - 04:01 PM There was a mention way back in 2000 of "Auntie Mary had a canary" - that's to the tune of Cock of the North, not Soldier's Joy. Adam MacNaughtan's "Scottish Play" (M*cbeth for the superstitious!) IS to the tune of Soldier's Joy. And yes, it's widely played both N and S of the England/Scotland border. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,strad Date: 24 May 11 - 04:36 PM The Norwegian version has a third pat to it which I haven't come across anywhere else. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Dave Hanson Date: 25 May 11 - 02:26 AM Adam McNaughtons song properly titled ' Oor Hamlet ' is set to the tune ' The Masons Apron ' Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 25 May 11 - 03:48 AM The Fiddlers Companion has extensive information: http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/SO_SOR.htm The tune seems to be found everywhere, but where it actually originated still appears to be obscure. That's folk music for you. However it's probably European rather than American. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Tattie Bogle Date: 26 May 11 - 01:11 PM DH, Agreed re Hamlet, but I was talking about Adam's Macbeth (ooh, now you've made me say it! - bad luck for ever mair) which IS to the tune of Soldier's Joy. Ad he does King Lear to another tune (can't remember as I've only heard it once), and Romeo and Juliet to the tune of The Atholl Highlanders. And his name is McNaughtan (with 2 As) - I got it wrong too, with Mac instead of Mc! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Dennis W Date: 11 Dec 11 - 10:38 AM The tune is older than it's present song presentation. We have several posters here who have found Scottish and English forms of the tune with other names. How it got the name "Soldiers Joy" might tell us a lot about the tune's history. But for this concern about the reference to morphine I have a few comments. I doubt lyrics that refer to morphine date much earlier than the 1890's as that is when morphine was synthesized from opium. In the early 1800s men would drink laudanum which was a mixture of alcohol and tincture of opium. Apparently Edgar Allen Poe was addicted to this drink and he lived in the 1830s. It is possible tincture of opium was used as a pain reliever during the Civil War with and combined with alcohol. The term morphenine refers to it's synthetic form, so I believe these lyrics making this reference cannot go back as far as the Civil War. Morphine was used extensively in World War I and some of these lyrics might go back this far. My personal belief, not substaniated by much fact, is these lyrics about morphine were popularized and might even have been written by musicians of the 1970's. The so-called Hippy influence on old time music. I am curious as I know the Cabell ancestral home in Nelson County Virginia is named "Soldiers Joy". It was built about 1785 by a revolutionary war veteran. I also have a copy of the tune printed at about the same time. Perhaps the song then was about joy in returning home after the rigors of war. In that version it might be about the joys of hearth and home and it's dance qualities adaptable to these themes. Anyone here run into a connection between these events? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Paul Slade Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:34 PM The excellent Guy Clark has a song called "Soldier's Joy, 1864" on his 2002 album The Dark, crediting its composition to himself & Shawn Camp. The lyrics describe a US Civil War soldier needing something to kill the pain of having his wounded leg amputated in a field hospital and then becoming an addict. Key lines include: "He handed me a bottle, said 'Son drink deep as you can', He turned away then he turned right back with a hacksaw in his hand.' And later: "Gimme some of that Soldier's Joy, you know what I crave, I'll be hittin' that Soldier's Joy till I'm in my grave." It's pretty clear from the context that he's talking about a solution of morphine. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Mar 12 - 05:55 PM Yeah, but - nobody in 1864 would have assumed morphine was addictive, since it hadn't been widely used by then. (First isolated in 1817, but its first large-scale use was in the American Civil War). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: mg Date: 24 Mar 12 - 06:37 PM I have heard it played by a Finnish group. mg |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Tattie Bogle Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:28 PM 12 years on....here's a link to some pals of mine doing the Robert Burns version in his "Jolly Beggars" cantata. (Worth watching the rest too!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxidXcDC8BY |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Paul Slade Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:45 PM "Yeah, but - nobody in 1864 would have assumed morphine was addictive, since it hadn't been widely used by then. (First isolated in 1817, but its first large-scale use was in the American Civil War)." According to Wikipedia, morphine was first isolated in 1804, first distributed in 1817, first commercially sold in 1827, and expanded sharply in use after the invention of the hypodermic needle in 1857. American attempts to legally restrict the drug didn't start till 1875, with San Francisco's first (rather timid) anti-opium laws, but it seems reasonable to assume users would have begun to notice its addictive properties long before then. By 1864, when the US Civil War had just one year to run, perhaps the common soldiers had seen enough of their wounded colleagues fall victim to the stuff to gossip among themselves that it seemed to be addictive. That said, I dare say there was a bit of creative hindsight in Clark's lyrics too. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Gern Date: 27 Mar 12 - 07:54 PM The recipe for morphine and beer is repeated by Riley Puckett in Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers' version of soldier's joy. Sounds like "soldier's joy' was a euphemism for stupefication, which could indeed be blissful if one were a soldier. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:29 PM Well, since Robert Burns knew the name of the tune in th 1780s, I'd say that morphine had nothing to do with it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Mark Ross Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:29 PM I always heard that Soldier's Joy was payday. Mark Ross |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: open mike Date: 28 Mar 12 - 12:19 PM that web site seems to no longer be available...www.erols.com/olsonw which brings me to think about making arrangements for web sites to continue after one's death...esp.ones that contain a wealth of information.... and i had the idea that a soldier's joy would be relief from pain... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Snuffy Date: 28 Mar 12 - 04:00 PM Open Mike There is a copy of Bruce Olson's website (www.erols.com/olsonw) here at Mudcat. At the top of each page is a Quick Links box, with a drop down menu. Bruce Olson's Website is about 15th or so on that list. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Truman Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:40 PM I played the tune in a bar in Rochester and a young man came up and asked what the name of it was. He said he was a music scholar and had just read the tune in a 13th century manuscript. Near Portland Oregon I watched some excellent Estonian folk dancers with a wide traditional repertoire. When they did a dance using Soldiers Joy on fiddle I ran around back and asked them about the tune. They said, "oh, we call that one 'der Engelsk ton' - the English tune." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 17 Jan 13 - 01:42 PM Another reason (as if one were needed) to doubt that "Soldier's Joy" meant "morphine" is that in the nineteenth century morphine was associated primarily with the relief of pain, not with getting high for the hell of it - an idea sensationalized by the press in the 1920s. Soldiers and surgeons who saw that morphine was highly addictive would hardly have considered that to be a "joy." After a while, addicts need the drug just to feel normal. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Jack Campin Date: 17 Jan 13 - 01:46 PM He said he was a music scholar and had just read the tune in a 13th century manuscript. Did he also have the Holy Grail behind the bar instead of his own pewter mug? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: greg stephens Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:34 PM If that guy in the bar who saw the tune in a 13th century manuscript offers to sell you the details of a roulette system, or a gold brick, I shouldn't take him up on it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:03 AM The association of Soldier's Joy with opiates is offered in several texts that I've seen, but morphine is a fairly "modern" opium derivative that, so far as seen, wasn't much used until early 20th century. The more common opiate to which the time of the song's apparent origins overlaps would likely have been called laudanum. Paracelsus, born Phillippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim (1493-1541) in Salzburg, Austria, a 16th-century Swiss-German alchemist, discovered that the alkaloids in opium are far more soluble in alcohol than water. Having experimented with various opium concoctions, Paracelsus came across a specific tincture of opium that was of considerable use in reducing pain. He called this preparation laudanum, derived from the Latin verb laudare, to praise.[2] Initially, the term "laudanum" referred to any combination of opium and alcohol. Laudanum was widely available during just about any recent war, and was a main ingredient in many of the "snake oil" patent medicines touted in the late 19th century (US Civil War time), and would have been well known and probably widely used. It's refered to frequently in "cowboy movies" - mostly set shortly after that war - when the old frontier doc treats almost anything. If the song does refer to an opiate, it most likely would have been called laudanum, although the precise formulation would be no more specifically known than for most modern herbalist concoctions. Although morphine was known ca. 1804(?), no widespread use was made of it until the invention of the hypodermic needle ca. 1857. It may have been used enough in the Civil War to cause the association to have attached then, but it's unlikely that the opiate association, if it existed earlier, meant morphine. But back to the song now. John |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: Jack Campin Date: 18 Jan 13 - 09:07 AM This includes a fair bit of reliable information about morphine use during the Civil War: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/soldis.htm The hypodermic had been invented by then, but wasn't used much till near the end of the war. The cheapest and easiest way to administer morphine was to rub the powder into an open wound. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: GUEST,Big Roly Date: 22 Feb 21 - 04:07 PM I wish someone would amend the Wikipedia entry, which gives the false impression that Soldier's Joy is almost exclusively an American tune, ignoring its importance to the vernacular culture of Britain and Ireland, even Scandinavia and France. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: cnd Date: 23 Feb 21 - 10:12 AM Roly -- you can always be the change you want to the world! But, I really don't get the same impression you got from it. At all. Here's the current intro, last edited January 29th: "Soldier's Joy" is a fiddle tune, classified as a reel or country dance.[1] It is popular in the American fiddle canon, in which it is touted as "an American classic"[1] but traces its origin to Scottish fiddling traditions.[2] It has been played in Scotland for over 200 years.What part of that gives the impression it's solely American? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Soldier's Joy From: meself Date: 23 Feb 21 - 12:31 PM It gives the impression, rather, that its place in "the American fiddle canon" is of particular interest ... for some reason. |
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