guinesschick, what's craic?

Subject: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Robby
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 07:46 AM

I wasn't sure I could get your attention in the crowd, so I thought I'd try the direct approach. Yesterday at Newcomers you used a word with which I am totally unfamiliar, "craic". Would you be so kind to tell me its pronunciation and its meaning?

In a song about the garment workers in Derry, factory girls, which may even be the title, there is a line which, if I hear it right, sounds like:

Her head is full of last night, the dancing and the "crack"

At least that's what my ears and brain, such as it is, seem to remember. Should "crack" as I heard it be replaced with "craic"?

Thanks for any info provided on this.

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: guinnesschik
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:14 AM

Robby, yes, it's pronounced as "crack". It's also used in "Work of The Weavers", and means conversation.

And Lena, I was only a kid then, but I believe "booze" has always meant alcoholic libations.

Slaitne, ya'll!

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Lena
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:16 AM

Hooo.

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Robby
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:29 AM

OK. Thanks, guinesschick. I had thought it meant booze, which, Lena, as far as I can remember has always meant liquor, generally other than beer.

Nach ein mal, bitte.

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:36 AM

I have never been too sure on the exact meaning of craic but it is much more than conversation. I have just had a quick seach and found this:

"Craic is one of those old Gaelic words still in use in Ireland that defies precise definition. It connotes a mixture of devilment and enjoyment, the stuff of pubs and stories..."

That seems to fit my ideas of what craic is.

Jon

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Áine
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:39 AM

Dear Robby,

For a good discussion of the word 'craic' and its various meanings and connotations, please take a look at this thread.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:43 AM

... and all this time, guinnesschik, I thought it was that stuff those guys sell on the street corner near your house1!

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: guinnesschik
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:43 AM

Thanks all for the help. Once more, proof that 'Catters are the best bunch of folks on the web.

;-)

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: guinnesschik
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:59 AM

Gosh, Jed, don't tell everyone! *LOL*

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Robby
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 09:13 AM

Aine. Thanks for that thread. After reading all of this I just might be getting cracked, in the looney sense of the word.

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Robby
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 09:16 AM

By the way, what happened to Lena's post asking for the meaning of "booze", when I opened this thread again, I found the responses left by guinesschick and myself, but not Lena's original question? Any thoughts on that?

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 09:19 AM

I'll drink to that! Mudcatters RULE!!! (you out there, Mbo?)

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Fiolar
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 01:53 PM

I always was given to understand that "craic" without the "i" was derived from the initial letters of the following "Ceol, Rinnce Agus Caint." This phrase means Music, Dancing and Talk or Chat. It seems to fill the bill more so than some of the other explanations. Incidentally I learned to pronounce "feis" as "fesh." M

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 02:43 PM

It' also getting to be an overused stage joke with a performer "accidently" using that word and then explaining that it's not a drug reference. I've heard quite a few people use that including Mairéad NíMhaonaigh. I'm seeing Altan again tonight and she'll probably tell the same joke, but anyone who sings like her oughta be allowed to get away with using a tired joke. Am interesting twist there: I expect very much craic in its meaning of "great fun" tonight, but probably would not appreciate conversation during the concert!

Slán agat,
Tich

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 04:26 PM

Fiolar, To the best of my knowledge, "craic" isn't an Irish word at all, but an archaic English word which has survived and gained stronger in Ireland where we have the best crack.

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: death by whisky
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 06:00 PM

"What's the craic?" ,a greeting in Derry.

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 06:20 PM

Someone once told me it originated in the little Irish village of Craic, Co. Caine. But it was only for horses, not for men....

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: oggie
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 06:40 PM

According to a Christy Moore interview ('Mid Week' Radio 4 a couple of years back) it's 'crack' made to look Irish and as far as he was concerned crack is what it was. All the other defintions apply - it's just the mock Irish spelling he objected to.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: GUEST,George Henderson NSC
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 05:32 AM

I used this word in our newsletter earlier this year and shortly after its issue our guest at NEnagh Singers Circle was Eamon Brophy the noted Irish Scholar now living in Galway.

He advised me that it upsets native Irish speakers as it is definitely not an Irish word. It is, and has been for many centuries, in common use in the North of England and is the spelling there is CRACK.

It has the same meaning as that generally interpreted for the pseudo Irish "CRAIC"

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 10:18 AM

Indeed, it's become one of those meaningless marketing terms. Rather like Celtic.

'Catters must have heard of Sidmouth Folk Festival. Sidmouth "boats" an example of the International Standard Imitation Irish Pub, complete with the obligatory "Enjoy the craic" sign outside. And - at least in Festival week - it's the most DISMAL hole in the town (and the place you're least likely to hear any live music) . .

Which seems to me to sum up today's "craic" pretty well . .

G.

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Fiolar
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 01:22 PM

I don't suppose it really matters from where the word originated. Born in Ireland, I never heard the word used until I came to England and heard a Connaught man use it in conversation. Having worked for some time in the North of England, I never heard it there either. I suppose it could be a borrowed word. James Halliwell's Dictionary of Archaic Words gives one of the meanings of Crack as "To converse also chat, conversation, news.and gives it a Norfolk (England) origin. No date of origin but the dictionary was published in 1850. M

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: GUEST,Mbo
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 01:37 PM

Cracking good toast, Grommit!

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 01:39 PM

Any post was there, perchance?

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 02:08 PM

I must admit that this one is intriguing me. I don't know anything about Irish but in the thread Aine provides a link to, she notes that the word exists in new Irish dictionaries and that she has read its use in literature from around WWII.

The only online dictionary I can find is here and that does not indicate that it is a made up word. Also, the soc.irish.culture newsgroup lists it in their FAQ and defines it simply as fun.

Is it a word that crept into the Irish language some time ago but has been considered acceptable until very recently?

Jon

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 06:31 PM

I would never doubt my friend, George Henderson, as he is very thorough. But the standard greeting that the expat community in my area (a great many Donegallers, Derry folk and a number of Southerners) is "What's the craic?". I also remember my Grandparents using the term and they both died in the early to mid '70's. I have no doubt that it is a borrowed word, but it has been in use for a long time.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 06:36 PM

The craic in the company of the Big Mick is fierce.

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: oggie
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 06:45 PM

But it was definitely the 'Crack' that 'was ninety in the Isle of Man'.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 11:01 PM

I should mention that Mairéad did not use that tired joke that I mentioned in my last post.
Rich

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: BK
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 11:40 PM

In a sense, the true scientific notion is that all languages "borrow," - and often modify in many ways - a great part of their vocabulary. English, in particular, has a huge vocabulary, largely due to the tremendous amount of borrowing from other languages. This is why some nations established laws, rules, commissions, etc, to enforce the "purity" of their native language & stop the borrowing from FORIEGN sources, heaven forbid!!

New languages evolve from the mixture & modification of old languages. Language is one of the principal means of cultural evolution and the dispersion of ideas to new places & peoples.

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Sep 00 - 04:43 PM

I have thought it to mean 'gossip' on occasion...

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Robby
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 09:35 AM

Had I know I would be opening a such a discussion, I'm not sure I would have started this. Still in all, it has been very elucidating to follow the debate andto find out that, dispite disagreements as to the origin of the word, there seems to be general agreement as to its denotations and connotations.

I wonder what I can think of for another topic of discussion.

Thank you all for your contribution.

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 10:20 AM

Robby

Yes - Lena's original question seems to have disappeared. For what it's worth: the word "booze" has been around for a long time - it used to be spelled "bouse". Seems to come from a Middle Dutch word for "to drink heavily"!

Regards

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 11:45 AM

"Had I know I would be opening a such a discussion, I'm not sure I would have started this."

Why not Robby? Seems to me like good discussion with no nastiness. Surely this type of civilised debate is part of what Mudcat is about.

Jon

Subject: RE: guinesschick, what's craic?
From: Robby
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 12:03 PM

Absolutely, Jon. I must remember, in the future, to engage brain before putting mouth in gear.