Binnorie - Icelandic version

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 05:53 PM

Richard,
My own opinion here as to why there are several families of the ballad in English is that it was translated from the Scandinavian more than once during the 18th or early 19th century. The translations would have been taken from different Scandinavian versions, possibly even from different countries. All of the Scandinavian countries have versions.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 05:34 PM

Done . now the 18 year s clock start counting :)

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 05:29 PM

I have friends in the faroes Island m that might dig into this , it might take 18 years ,,,:) haha no joke ..

I´ll ask them now .

all the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 05:16 PM

Well I told it would come ..ehh Linus thank you very much for you ´r post . Linus is one of many folk music people in Iceland one of the young people and they are doing very well with the music and the session´s in Reykjavík .

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: skarpi - PM
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

Hörpukvæði , right now I know where to look . back later
kv Skarpi

and Linus closed this 2018 ...18 years in Ballad´s time ? ...nahh
short time ..scale . :) ....

all the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Nov 18 - 09:03 AM

John Robinson 25 Nov 18 - 06:02 AM
> Mike Raven published 'Bonnie Bonnie Banks of the Virgio' in a guitar tutor, many years ago - and I think this may be another variant.

Nope: totally different story "Babylon" (and various other titles) Child 14, already mentioned above.

The link posted by John says (inter alia) "Different versions ... vary slightly in the lyrics and melody used." That's a new meaning of "slightly". One of the aspects of this ballad that appeals to me is that there are several families of versions (in English alone, never mind other languages) which have more or less the same plot, give or take some episodes, but are radically different in their words and tunes: e.g. "Bow Down" refrain (usually but not always with the first line of each verse coming three times), "Wind and Rain" refrain, "Binnorie", "Bonny Bows of London", etc.

But we're drifting from the proper subject of this particular thread, the Icelandic versions.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Nov 18 - 08:05 AM

John, the word Viking has many connotations. If we take the generally held notion of the Scandinavian peoples who traversed the North Sea and the North Atlantic prior to the conquest it is highly unlikely that there were ANY ballads as we know them at that time in any culture. What Mike was probably really meaning was that our British versions probably derived from Danish versions in the 18th century which IS highly likely.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: John Robinson
Date: 25 Nov 18 - 06:02 AM

I must admit that I'm fascinated by this song, but it has too many variants to mention. I think there are over 125 versions in Swedish, and I remember Pete Coe singing 'The Wind and the Rain', which is where I first connected with it. Having said this, Mike Raven published 'Bonnie Bonnie Banks of the Virgio' in a guitar tutor, many years ago - and I think this may be another variant. I seem to remember him claim that, 'This song may have viking origins'. But of course, that idea is not completely uncommon.

This thread is interesting, as it references Brewster. I bet a native Icelandic speaker would have little trouble in tracking down a local version.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 06:20 PM

What I meant and expressed somewhat clumsily is I prefer the later sparser versions that leave more to the listener's imagination. Yes they all have supernatural elements somewhere even if it is only implied in drastically curtailed versions. Never let reality get in the way of a good story.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 05:02 PM

Steve,
> Hi Richard. I prefer the supernatural mystery of the English versions in which her body parts are used to embellish a fiddle and the fiddle sings on its own, no lover involved.

Isn't it equally supernatural in those Icelandic versions? Whether it's a harp or a fiddle, and whether only the strings are made from the murdered girl's hair or other parts are made from her finger bones etc are differences of detail. All the musician (whether he's the lover, now about to marry the dark sister, or just a passing minstrel coming to the king's hall) does is to (possibly build and) string the instrument and bring it along. In every case it's the instrument itself that identifies the sister as the murderess.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 03:42 PM

The Swedish version of Babylon is also called 'Herr Tores Dottrar' and HR Truelses Dotre'. It is also extant in Russia and Spain so one presumes another pan-European ballad. The Danish version as translated by Prior is given the title 'The Three Robbers and their Three Sisters.'Its Danish number is G338 and its Swedish number is S46.

Hi Richard. I prefer the supernatural mystery of the English versions in which her body parts are used to embellish a fiddle and the fiddle sings on its own, no lover involved.

Personally I adhere to the theory that these ballads were translated from the Scandinavian in the 18th and early 19th centuries. In the case of the Tvo Seostre more than once. We know that Jamieson was busy translating them before 1800 so why not others? I'm also convinced Peter Buchan was translating them to fill out his concoctions, amongst other sources.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 02:49 PM

The link quoted above goes to the first page of the first version.
Increment the 95 in the URL to 96 for the next page, and so on.

I'm intrigued by the episode quoted by Malcolm Douglas from Child "In both versions, her body is found by her lover, who takes three locks of her yellow hair with which to string his harp". As in the British versions the instrument then identifies the sister as the murderer and stops the lover marrying her, but it makes an even stronger story where it's the lover himself who has found the corpse and strung the harp.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 07:39 AM

The point of recognition being the murdered girls' clothes being a key aspect I suppose ...

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 07:36 AM

That Systrakvædi ballad also (as well as Babylon I mean) seems to be closely related to the Swedish Per Tyrssons Döttrar i Vänge (Per Tyrsson's Daughters i Vänge) ...

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 04:59 AM

Name's Linus but I've met Skarpi a couple of times.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 06:15 PM

Great stuff, is that you Skarpi?
Your second Systra ballad looks to be a version of the English 'Babylon',
Child Ballad 14, from your description.

I'll check out the links tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: GUEST,Linus Orri
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 06:00 PM

Ok so here it is... almost two dacades later.

Hörpukvæði is what we call a sagnadans(story dance) also known as fornkvæði(old song). We only have the words to it but the melody has been lost. It would be interesting to see if the faroese version fits together with the icelandic one musically.

It has the two sisters, a suitor, a river and some of fates of the characters are similar to the other european versions.
A summary of the words and it's origin story can be read on page 177 in Vésteinn Ólafssons doctoral thesis The traditional ballads of Iceland : historical studies which is probably the most thorough work on sagnadansar that available in english.

The full words can be found (in arcaic icelandic writing)on page 89 in this icelandic/norweigan book called Íslenzk fornkvæði. I have a later version(Fornir dansar) of the same book in modern icelandic writing.

There is another one which has some similarities with Two sisters called Systrakvæði(sisters song). This one we have the music to and you can hear this fakelore dance troup do a pretty boring version of it. The story is quite different. Two sisters meet a knight who wants to marry them but they say they'd rather die. So he kills them and takes their capes. He then rides to the third sisters house and asks to sleep with her in exchange for a cape. She recognizes it, tells her father who furiously throws a harp to the floor and then fights the knight for three days and kills him. The sisters return as spirits to the church.
As you see it has hints of being related, and the stanzas fit, but mostly it is actually a version of a third ballad, Harmbótarkvæði, but we won't get into that :)

There is still some digging to do, finding a way to sing Hörpukvæði and understanding the context. There is plenty of academic research around as the links above show. As more stuff comes up I might add it on to here but I'll probably end up writing something comprehensive in icelandic.

Allrighty. I hope that some of the people who have posted on this thread in the last 18 years read this and get something out of it.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:32 PM

have not heard yet ,.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: skarpi
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM

right , I asked and the man in the store is going to look for me for an old book he had , so we´ll wait . :O)

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

in English , there is a store in Reykjavík that I could check for you
I ´ll do the tomorrow .

ja well ten years ....I don´t think about time or age :O)
why bother ....it drive you crazy .

all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 03:43 PM

Welcome back, Skarpi.
Ten years isn't very long in ballad time.
Are there any books of Icelandic ballads in English? If not you could make a killing!

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: skarpi
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

Hörpukvæði , right now I know where to look . back later
kv Skarpi

Subject: Lyr Add: HÖRPU KVÆÐI (Icelandic 'Two Sisters')
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Nov 00 - 10:33 PM

I now have access to a copy of the relevant volume of Child, so here is such information as he gives:

He knew of two Icelandic versions, one (A) from the 17th century, the other (B) from the 19th.  The texts of both were published in Íslenzk Fornkvæði ("Ancient Songs of Iceland"), No.13; Hörpu kvæði ("The Song of the Harp").  The story of both is very similar to the English-language versions; the younger sister is fair, the elder dark; the murder takes place on the seashore, where, in version B, the sisters have gone "to wash their silks".  The younger sister is pushed in from a stone on which she is sitting or standing.  In B she offers her truelove to her sister in an attempt to save her life; in A she refuses.  In both versions, her body is found by her lover, who takes three locks of her yellow hair with which to string his harp.  Child quotes a translation of the concluding stanzas of version A:

The first string made response:
"The bride was my sister once."

The bride on the bench, she spake:
"The harp much trouble doth make."

The second string answered the other:
"She is parting me and my lover."

Answered the bride, red as gore:
"The harp is vexing us sore."

The canny third string replied:
"I owe my death to the bride."

He made all the harp-strings clang;
The bride's heart burst with the pang.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 08:40 PM

You could very well be right, Philippa; I tend to take the sceptical viewpoint simply because so many people believe what they want to, regardless of the evidence (or lack of it).   I guess that what we need here is a melody that is clearly related to both the Scandinavian and Scots/English groups; it would certainly prove your point.  Bronson was of the opinion that tunes changed less fundamentally, and at a much slower pace, than words, so a clear relationship might be demonstrated that way.  As you say, the Gaelic song is obviously quite separate.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM

Malcolm, I think it probable that the Scandinavian and English-language songs are directly related. The story and the motifs are so similar.

The Gaelic song which some people link to Child 10, on the other hand, is quite different. The women are unrelated and one is already married with children, also there is nothing in the song or related narratives about the dead woman's body being found and made into a musical instrument.

As for the tunes, even within any one language group there are versions of the song with similar lyrics but disimilar melodies.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 07:30 PM

It's very unlikely (though not impossible) that the Scandinavian songs will have melodies with much in common with their Scottish/English analogues.  (I use the word advisedly; while it may be essentially the same story, that doesn't necessarily mean that the songs themselves are related to each other).

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 05:10 PM

The tune on the one recording I've heard of Horpa doesn't remind me of any of the tunes I know for the English language versions. There are so many tunes that if you are looking for variants of Child 10 you will certainly have to listen for the lyrics, the storyline.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Susan of DT
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 08:10 PM

Skarpi - look at #10 in the DT. Several of them have tunes entered that you can listen to. There will be more tunes for Child #10 in the next edition, since someone sent Dick over tunes for this ballad from Bonson. I don't think all will get into the database this time.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 04:47 PM

Hallo all, at last I am home. Harphand what Melody is this song? If you can tell something about this song I might dig something up. Hope that I will hear from you again. All the best skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: GUEST,skarpi at work
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 11:27 AM

úps sorry about that , something came to my hand. skarpi .

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: GUEST,skarpi at work
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 11:26 AM

Hallo all, I am gonna find something about this song. I have to ask around becouse Inever have heard this song. All the best skarpi Iceland.

---

Duplicate messages deleted. --JoeClone

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 09:29 PM

There are 103 (!) Norwegian versions (text only, so far as I can tell) at  Dokumentasjons-prosjektet  A Norwegian Universities Joint Project:

Dei to søstre  (The Two Sisters).

Horpa seems to be the form of the song, not its title.  Still no Icelandic version to be found, I'm afraid.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 09:00 PM

Child refers to the text, but doesn't quote it.  There is a Norwegian analogue in the Forum, if that's of any interest to you:  Horpa  -no tune, unfortunately.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: MMario
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 08:40 PM

there are 12 versions in the Digital tradition you wil find if you put #10 in the digitrad search box above. Other then that I would suggest a web sercj for child #10 or child ballad #10

Subject: RE: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: Wavestar
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 07:55 PM

Calling Skarpi... Are you out there, Skarpi?

I'll look around, but I'm bad at this, harpandsong...

-J

Subject: Binnorie - Icelandic version
From: GUEST,harpandsong
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 07:45 PM

I understand that one of the many versions of "Binnorie" aka "Twa Sisters" is from Iceland. I think it may be in Child (the 5 volume Dover set, if you haven't looked lately, is $750 US second hand!! -- which is why I don't have a copy!).

Can anyone help me out with words? Thank you.

CE