Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Lyr Add: Pull Down Below (chantey)

radriano 28 Sep 00 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,Jerry 13 Nov 00 - 03:21 PM
Margo 13 Nov 00 - 04:47 PM
paddymac 14 Nov 00 - 01:53 PM
Noreen 07 Oct 01 - 12:47 PM
Jeri 07 Oct 01 - 01:09 PM
Charley Noble 07 Oct 01 - 05:54 PM
Barry Finn 07 Oct 01 - 07:19 PM
Noreen 07 Oct 01 - 07:44 PM
Gibb Sahib 04 Aug 11 - 09:30 PM
Gibb Sahib 04 Aug 11 - 09:53 PM
Charles Biada 04 Aug 11 - 11:29 PM
Gibb Sahib 05 Aug 11 - 01:10 AM
Gibb Sahib 19 Aug 11 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,Capistrano Honey 02 Jul 14 - 12:19 AM
GUEST,Alan Griffiths 03 Oct 14 - 04:13 PM
Gibb Sahib 03 Oct 14 - 06:22 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:





Subject: Lyr Add: PULL DOWN BELOW (chantey)
From: radriano
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 03:07 PM

Here's a shanty I just learned from a Stan Hugill recording titled A Salty Fore Topman with the shanty group Stormalong John as his shanty chorus.

I'm curious about the first three verses with their references to "saddle", "poke", and "moke." These verses seem to happen on land which is not that unusual but I can't think of another shanty using these words, which sound, as least on the surface, like cowboy terms. Any ideas on this?


Pull Down Below
A Salty Fore Topman, Stan Hugill with Stormalong John
halyard and towing shanty


Oh, I went to church and I went to chapel
Chorus: Pull down below
I went to church and I went to chapel
Chorus: Pull down below

Full Chorus:
Oh, Hielan' laddie, pull down below
Hielan' laddie, bonnie laddie, pull down below

On the road I found a saddle
I found a saddle and an empty poke

I found a saddle and an empty poke
But where the hell was the bleedin' moke

The moke is gone and I'll go to
I'll sail away to Backaloo

Oh, hoist 'er up and away we'll go
Hoist 'er up from down below

Oh, give 'er sheet and let 'er go
We're outward bound to Backalow


Regards to all,
Radriano

    Threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
    -Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: pull down below
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 03:21 PM

I'm looking for the words to a chantey called "pull down below" I believe it's a halyard chantey. Thanx Jerry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: pull down below
From: Margo
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 04:47 PM

I wonder if this is what you want:

Eagle Alley
I went to church, I went to Chapel
Pull down below I went to church, I went to Chapel
Pull down below

Away Eagle Alley
Pull down below
Oh Eagle Alley in the Valley
Pull down below

And on the road I found an apple . . .

And who's been here since I been gone. . .

It's a Yankee mate with his big boots on . . .

And who's been here since I been gone. . .

It's a lime-juice mate with his cheese cutter on . . .

I went to church, I went to Chapel. . .

You can listen to a sample of this song here at Shanghaied on the Willamette. Margo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: pull down below
From: paddymac
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 01:53 PM

The Black Brothers also have a recorded version of this toon. It's a good one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:47 PM

Closely related to Eagle Alley (Supersearch is down, I will check it's not already in the forum before posting here).

I wondered what 'Eagle alley in the valley' meant... would that be a mishearing of Hielan' laddie, bonnie laddie ?

Which came first?

Noreen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:09 PM

A "moke" is a mule. (Used in He-Bang, She Bang, in which "we're from the railroad," indicates a possible origin. The moke in this case is a banjo picker, and I think it's possible the singer in insinuating the banjo picker is mule-like for some unfathomable reason. ;-) It sounds like the shanty is pulled together from other songs, which wouldn't be surprising, but what other songs?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:54 PM

Richard -

It looks to me that the terms you're puzzling over are borrowed "land terms" rather then similar sounding nautical terms; I'm sure you're aware of parts of the ship that are described as the saddle, the horse, etc., but I don't think that's the case here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 07:19 PM

In the song "A Begging I Will Go" it has in it "I've a poke for me salt another for me malt" & "I've a poke for ale another for me rye". Can't tell you for sure what those lines exactly mean but you can make of it what you can. See ya soon, Barry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 07:44 PM

A poke is a sack or a bag, Barry, as in 'buying a pig in a poke'. I wouldn't carry my ale in one...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:30 PM

Anyone know the story behind this song?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:53 PM

It seems like Hugill may have created the chanty from the following text. What do you guys think? (Or has this been discussed elsewhere?)

1927        Eckstorm, Fannie Hardy and Mary Winslow Smyth. _Minstrelsy of Maine: Folk-songs and Ballads of the Woods and the Coast_. Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin.

The following two chanties taken down ca.1904 by WM Hardy of Brewer, Maine, from the singing of Captain William Coombs of Islesboro, Maine. Called them "local fishermen's chanteys."

Isle o' Holt (Highland Laddie)

Was you ever on the Isle o' Holt,
Bonnie laddie, Hielan' laddie?
Where John Thompson swallowed a colt,
Bonnie laddie, Hielan' laddie?
Hurroo, my dandies O!
Bonnie laddie, Hielan' laddie;
Hurroo, my dandies O!
Bonnie Hielan' laddie.

I opened an orange and found a letter,
Bonnie laddie, Hielan' laddie.
And the more I read it grew better and better,
Bonnie Hielan' laddie.
Hurroo, my dandies O!
Bonnie laddie, Hielan' laddie,
Hurroo, my dandies O!
Bonnie Hielan' laddie.


Church and Chapel

I rode to church, I rode to chapel,
Pull down!
With a hickory horse and a white-oak saddle,
        Pull down below!
Pull down, pull down, pull down together,
Pull down, pull down, my dandy fellows,
        Pull down!


These appeared one after another on the same page. No musical score. Hugill did not have this book at his disposal when he wrote 1961's Shanties from the Seven Seas. Otherwise, I'm sure he would have included these, because his policy was to include every fragment of anything called a "chantey" from every source he had. Later in the 60s, I believe, he got Eckstorm and Smyth's book.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below
From: Charles Biada
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 11:29 PM

The Eagle Alley lyrics given above appear with notes and tune in Robert Young Walser's 1998 article, "Here We Come Home in a Leaky Ship!': The Shanty Collection of James Madison Carpenter." (Link at JSTOR.) Carpenter recorded it from Rees Baldwin (along with "Nothin' But A Humbug" and others) in Wales in 1928.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 01:10 AM

Hi Charles,
Thanks, that great, and I do have Bob Walser's article so I was able to check it out.
...Now I'm more confused!

It does seem quite reasonable (likely, I'd say) that "Hieland Laddie" would be misheard as "Eagle Alley" when Carpenter transcribed it.

Who, then, made the connection (if it really was a connection) to "Hieland Laddie"? Carpenter (says Walser) did make the connection to the "Church and Chapel" song in Eckstorm and Smyth's book. Yet that text does not have *anything* indicated to be sung where either "Eagle alley" or "hielan laddie" or whatever would be sung.

My proposition is that someone looked to the song just above "Church and Chapel," in Eckstorm's book, and got the idea of "hielan laddie." Who was that? From radriano's notes to his album, he says that in Hugill's notes to Salty Fore Topman (1989) he says that the song was collected from the "Maritime states." Certainly this must be in reference to Eckstorm/Smyth.

However, in order to get the tune, he must have heard the Baldwin recording, no?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below (chantey)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 02:15 AM

Another rendering, from Carpenter:

1931        Carpenter, James M. "Lusty Chanteys from Long-dead Ships." New York Times (12 July 1931).

Oh, I went to church. I went to chapel!
Pull down below!
And on the road I found an apple!
Pull down below!
Oh, hee-dle-allie!
Pull down below! (Crew)
Oh, hee-dle-allie in the valley!
Pull down below!


The "eagle alley" form occurred in the manuscripts of Carpenter's collection. My guess is that that's what he wrote down as a guess at the time, after recording Rees Baldwyn in 1928. However, (guessing) when he prepared this 1931 article, he took another listen and decided on the above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below (chantey)
From: GUEST,Capistrano Honey
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:19 AM

"Moke" is an old racial slur for a black person. There's another old song with the chorus "Old Moke pickin' on a banjo"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below (chantey)
From: GUEST,Alan Griffiths
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 04:13 PM

"Moke" in Hawaiian culture[edit]
Many people in Hawaii compare the Moke to the southern "redneck" in terms of personality. Much like a "redneck", the word Moke can be used as both a pejorative term and a term of pride[citation needed]. Also much like a redneck, mokes may stereotypically carry an affinity for pickup trucks, pitbulls, and are construed as uneducated. Mokes also have similar stereotypes to the Mexican-American "cholo", in mannerisms and appearance.
The common stereotype of a Moke is a local male of Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander descent, who speaks a form of English known as "pidgin", wears tank-top t-shirts, or no shirt, boardshorts, and cheap rubber sandals (also known as the "rubba slippa"). The term also suggests a person who is needlessly aggressive in dealing with others—particularly when the "others" are Caucasians ("haoles") -- and who views violence as the first and best way to get anything he wants or in response to any perceived slight.

Moke is a derogatory term. In the context of shanty's it seems, to me, more likely to be of Hawaiian origin. As sailors were not too picky about being PC it could be they used the term for anyone who wasn't caucasian. Moke is also a male name in the south seas,

Further to that Na Mokulua - or the Mokes - are two islets off the windward coast of O'ahu in the Hawaiian Islands.. Mokulua means "two islands",


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Pull Down Below (chantey)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:22 PM

Alan Griffiths,

Your Hawaiian explanation is absurd. Such word games ignore the context and history of this song genre in general, as well as the fact that a fine explanation is already there.

"Moke" is a Black man in the context of the ONE (?!) chanty documented to have included it in the chorus. It is well known that a great proportion of chanties were, or were fashioned from, songs belonging to African-American repertoire or American popular music (which was styled to include African-American earmarks). And Black people of the Americas probably sang far more chanties - a genre not limited to work over deep water - than any sunburnt Europeans frolicking with wahines in Maui.

Furthermore, one can search on the phrase "old moke" to find references to Black men. There is no need for such far flung speculations…and it makes me wonder why one would be interested in doing that in the first place.

Gibb


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 15 December 4:52 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.