Subject: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 29 Sep 00 - 11:51 AM And I think they made the right choice. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Patrish(inactive) Date: 29 Sep 00 - 11:54 AM so do I Patrish |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Auxiris Date: 29 Sep 00 - 12:12 PM Out of idle curiosity, I'd be more interested in hearing precisely why either of you (or others for that matter) feel this way rather than just "I think they made the right choice". Okay, fine, but WHY? cheers, Aux
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Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Patrish(inactive) Date: 29 Sep 00 - 12:22 PM The Euro has already shown that it is not stable - it has had to be shored up by other currencies, I think that europe is stronger for its differences rather than trying to make it the same. Patrish PS I am offline now until monday |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 29 Sep 00 - 01:06 PM Always were smart people the Danes... Why you ask? Because they have no intention of being led down the path of political, economical and social control by Eurocrats. One does not have to knock down the garden wall to trade with ones neighbours. Yours, Aye. Dave |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: JTT Date: 29 Sep 00 - 03:07 PM Dunno, though. Every time I leave home for another country a bunch of banks make a fortune as I change my money into francs, marks, kroner, etc. I like the idea of one currency all across Europe: it means that I'll know the real price of things, everything from cars to fish. Last time I was in France I tried to pay the equivalent of £40 rather than £4 for some morue sechée. The fishmonger said "your holidays must be expensive!" |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Sep 00 - 06:46 PM I can't get too excited about this one way or the other. Most of the time I'm using plastic money anyway, and it doesn't make much difference what currency clocks up on the machine.
I'm far more irritated by metric weights and measures and lengths than I ever have been by euros and so forth. When they dumped the shillings and (real)pence they buggered up a perfectly good system, and nobody asked our permission for that. Anything they do now is just tidying up, and they might as well.
Anyway, having separate currencies for different countries is just a modern fad.
The mistake was having that silly name "euro" - if they'd called the new unit a Quid, it would have had a sensible Latin lineage, and gone down a treat in England. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Terry K Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:26 AM Agree wholeheartedly about the name being silly - Euro (Uro...., rather unpleasant association!). What I can't understand is that though the economic arguments are incredibly complicated and the decision will have far reaching effects, the Danes let Joe Public decide. Who on earth is qualified to make such a decision - isn't that what Governments are supposed to do? Though I can see that when it's our turn, Joe Public's gut feeling is probably as good as any other guidance we will have! I think they should use referenda for things like domes and such like, where the public view would be meaningful. As far as the metrication exercise goes, have you thought about the temperatures? When they introduced Celsius (which I have to admit I still call Centigrade) in about 1971 I assumed it was to take over, but we're still giving the Fahrenheit equivalent nearly 30 years later. And in industry they still talk about "fifteen metres of four inch pipe". Cheers, Terry |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Sep 00 - 10:40 AM I have no idea about the euro but I think that the idea of using the metric system was a good one and that the system is far better than our old illogical imperial system. Just to take one example, imagine how much more complicated financial applications would be if the rules of Pounds Shillings and Pence had to be applied. I am not so sure about the way we implemented the changes though as we still seem to be stuck with some of the old system and end up with anomolies such as the one Terry has mentioned. Whether base 10 is the best system or not is another matter and thinking in terms of computers, perhaps we would have been better being "created" with 16 fingers and thumbs rather than 10 as I guess that is the only reason why we use base 10 - I wonder what we would play music like with extra fingers. Jon |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Troll Date: 30 Sep 00 - 10:59 AM The beaurocrats and multinationals don't seem to grasp the importance that national identity plays in the everyday lives of ordinary people. Of course one currency and one government would make trade easier but people want to think of themselves and their country a special; different language, different customs, different currency.I'm a citizen of the United States and I don't want to be a Canadian or a Mexican. And I'm qiute sure that the Mexicans want thier country to remain under their control and the Canadians want to go right on being Canadian (although I cannot for the life of me imagine why) and ending sentences with "eh?" troll |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Lepus Rex Date: 30 Sep 00 - 11:06 AM I think I read about a poll taken up in Canada, where something like half the people polled would like to ditch Canada and join the USA. Did I actually read that? ---Lepus Rex |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Mooh Date: 30 Sep 00 - 11:43 AM Lepus Rex, maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read. Troll, I'm glad you don't want to be Mexican or Canadian, especially if you'd make a better American. Canadian reasons for remaining so are as valid as yours for remaining American. I think this should be easy to understand. As for becoming something other than Canadian, NOT THIS CANADIAN! Unlike some (some perhaps, but I'm not convinced) I would still die for my country. I am a Canadian and though I do not have any particular dislike for our friendly neighbours to the south, I have absolutely no notion that the USA is in any way a better society. I prefer my own country of birth and choice. There are arguments elsewhere in Mudcatville regarding this, but my personal views tend towards gun laws, socialized medicine, education, use of the armed forces, foreign policy, cultural diversity, political structure, and so on. But more to the point, currency is a major symbol of nationality. Equalizing value is one thing, making a universal (at least continentally, or whatever) "dollar" is quite another. Though it won't suddenly change a culture, it will distance the money from the people, like overtaxing does. The Danes have done the right thing, for the same reason I would as a Canadian. I don't want to share my dollar with another country and I don't want to share another country's dollar. That doesn't, of course, mean we can't share other things. The money is as much a national symbol as the parliament, the flag, the coat of arms, and our speech. Mooh, eh. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Lepus Rex Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:01 PM Mooh, I don't; that's why I was asking 'Did I actually read that?' I read that article in one of the local papers. :) ---Lepus Rex
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Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Mooh Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM LR...Oops. Ever notice how voice inflection doesn't always show up in the typed word? I didn't mean it as harshly as it looks. Good topic, eh? Mooh. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:23 PM "imagine how much more complicated financial applications would be if the rules of Pounds Shillings and Pence had to be applied."
You may not believe it, but it really was the other way round, if you've grown up with it. Adding up a bill in a shop in the days of LSD was actually easier. The shopkeeper would do it in their head, you'd so it in your head. The cash machine would confirm the figure, but you'd be much more likely to spot a mistake than you wopld with decimal currency.
And what's with that "imperial" label? Most people who still use gallons, pints, feet and inches, yard, miles and pounds and so forth are Americans, and I'm sure they don't call them "imperial measures". (Though something that strikes me as strange is that they appear to have abandoned the stone, and just quote peoples weights in pounds, which I find hard to make sense of, since I never learnt my 14 times table.)
So far as money is concerned (and that's a lt less interesting than weights and measures), maybe we could haev a compromise. Have it that everyone uses the same currency, but instead of saying it's a euro, we all use our local label - so the English call it the pound, the Irish call it the punt, the French say it's a franc, the Italians say it's a lire (which is just the Italian for pound anyway) and so forth.
I checked the DT, and there are 11 songs there under the keyword money. Anyone feel like adding a few more? |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Lepus Rex Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:38 PM Ah, yes, the TOPIC. I should say something about that, eh, Mooh? ;) I guess, as someone who has relatives in Denmark, I'm sort of glad they decided not to accept the 'Euro.' I hate homogenization in everything but milk. Of course, I'd half like it if Denmark took back Schleswig, so... >:) ---Lepus Rex |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:38 PM McGrath, I was born in 1960 so I do remember the change over and working in LSD in primary school but I not well enough to remember whether I found it easy or not but I know which I would prefer to work with in computing terms. I will stand by the imperial system as that was the system we used. The US may use the same names as we do but the actual quanities of a substance can differ, e.g. our gallon is 4.456 litres whereas the US gallon is 3.785 litres. Jon |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Sep 00 - 05:59 PM Well being born in 1960 meant that you'd have only had a few years to be dealing with cash before they dumped real money. Decimals are a lot easier for calculators, which was why they did it.
But for me, having been born a good few years earlier, it's a lot easier to add up eg £1 6s 8d, 4s 6d and 9d (£1 10s 11d) in my head than the decimal equivalents, 1.33, 22.5p and 4.5p (and those aren't exact equivalents, because you can't get exact equivalents of 6s 8d and 9d). (£1.60)
And if you made that list three times as long, I guarantee anyone would need pencil and paper for the decimal version. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: GUEST,John Gray/ Australia Date: 30 Sep 00 - 07:44 PM McGrath, we've had the metric system in place here in Oz for about 30 years and, as far as I can tell, it has been a boon. Yeah, at 53 I know both systems and it's definately metric for me. And, as far as trying to find equivalents, there's no point - it's a "different" system. VW's & RR's are both cars, but there's no equivalent. Once you start trying to covert a litre back into a pint, or a kilogram back to a pound then the plot is lost. We still have some Neanderthals who say 'when I weigh myself in kilograms I don't know how heavy I am' or 'I caint unnerstan this new mecktric system', they look a little nonplussed when I comment, 'what do you buy your beer with then, pounds, shillings $ pence?' Surely your comment that 'the metric system was introduced to make life easier for calculators' was tongue in cheek. If this was the case surely the Americans would have shifted to metric also. But then, the reason they aren't metricated ( entirely ) is that they didn't think of it first. And if the calculator tack is correct then it's a big yippee for the French. At last they,ve got something right when hundreds(?) of years ago they adopted a measuring sytem that was just right for todays silicone chips. John Gray FME |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: hesperis Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:01 PM Jon - you were working in LSD in primary school? Naughty, weren't you! |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:43 PM Never tried it hesperis, you? Jon (who is too scared to even try magic mushrooms) |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:46 PM PS Hesperis, does rocket contain any halucinogenics? Jon (who thought Hesperis was a wreck until today) |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Troll Date: 01 Oct 00 - 12:14 AM Jon, you beat me to it. The Imperial gallon is based on a 20oz pint whereas the USGallon is based on a 16oz pint. Thats why a couple of pints in UK will hit you quicker than a couple of pints in US. We won't go into the fact that American beer isn't worthy of the name. troll |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Terry K Date: 01 Oct 00 - 01:51 AM McGrath, you said - "But for me, having been born a good few years earlier, it's a lot easier to add up eg £1 6s 8d, 4s 6d and 9d (£1 10s 11d) in my head than the decimal equivalents, 1.33, 22.5p and 4.5p (and those aren't exact equivalents, because you can't get exact equivalents of 6s 8d and 9d). (£1.60)" When I (automatically) totted up your proper money sum I made it £1 11s 11d. - so Jon Freeman may well have a point! But your suggestion of renaming the Euro to its present national equivalent is just brilliant. Cheers, Terry
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Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Auxiris Date: 01 Oct 00 - 10:03 AM Okay, so maybe it's true that Europe is "stronger for its differences". If that is indeed the case, then why did Denmark, along with GreatBritain and Holland, try to use European Community rulings back a few years ago to outlaw cheese made with non-pasturised milk? Anyone remember about that? If that isn't Eurocracy, I don't know what is. Now, as for the Euro (I agree, that's a stupid name and anything else would have been better, ecu, quid, whatever), we don't even have the actual currency "in hand" yet and not 'til 2002, so what is happening on the various exchange markets is speculation. Besides, everyone's currency wobbles once in a while, eh. For example, when I came to France in 1985, a dollar would buy 10.40 French francs. A couple of years ago, a dollar would only buy between 5.80 and 6.00 French francs. I can't see why a bit of currency fluctuation is such a problem. Just one more word about the Danes (thread creep alert): the Danish parlement has just adopted a future law project that would make showers obligatory for pigs weighing over 20 kilos (that's 2.2 lbs to a kilo for you metricophobes, or 44 lbs or 3.14 stone). Thus, Danish pork farmers will now have 15 years to conform to this law and install the necessary sanitary equipment so that their pigs will be sufficiently clean. Raises a few questions in my mind about the wisdom of letting one's government decide some things without asking the pblic's advice. . . cheers, Aux
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Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: JTT Date: 01 Oct 00 - 04:24 PM I'd also much sooner we all drove on the right. It seems crazy to keep driving on the left when everyone else is used to the other way; besides cars would be much cheaper here if we could buy them from Europe. I saw a car in Clonmacnois last summer, a German car, and the owner had put a huge sign on her driver's-side window saying "Links Fahren" to remind herself not to join the other tourists in killing people by going the wrong way around roundabouts and driving on the wrong side. Driving on the left began originally as a convenience for people riding and driving horses, when the whip hand was the right hand, and you wanted to have the other horses on your whip-hand side so you could lash them away if they came too near your carriage shafts and traces. Scarcely a problem with modern cars. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Lepus Rex Date: 01 Oct 00 - 04:56 PM Holland is making these choices on it's own, now, Auxiris? Noord or Zuid Holland? And what do Gelderland, Groningen, Flevoland, Drenthe, and the rest think about this? (teehee ;) ---Lepus Rex |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Auxiris Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:52 AM Well, Lepus, I don't know that the Dutch are making choices on their own; I did say they had joined forces with Denmark and Great Britain, now didn't I? Just so they don't think they can do things like outlaw raw milk cheese! Aux
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Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Lepus Rex Date: 02 Oct 00 - 03:30 AM Hehe, Auxiris, I was just protesting your use of 'Holland.' My family's from Gelderland, you see... ;) ---Lepus Rex |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Lady McMoo Date: 02 Oct 00 - 05:29 AM As someone living in Belgium who can drive to and shop in at least five other countries within a couple of hours, I'm in favour of the single currency although I do hate the name of it like many others. I also lost a lot of money thanks to currency speculation when I changed countries and anything which put those parasites out of business is fine by me. My Euro .02 worth! mcmoo |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Jon Freeman Date: 02 Oct 00 - 06:02 AM Troll, this is thread creep but much as I dislike the Bud, I am not sure that I would be too quick to criticise the American beers. I have yet to try any but I do believe that some of the Micro breweries in the US are actually producing drinks comaparable with our best UK bitters. Jon (Who hopes to sample one day) |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Lady McMoo Date: 02 Oct 00 - 06:14 AM Indeed Jon. I have visited several cities in the US recently and sample a fair selection of their microbrews. The quality varied from good to very good! Best regards, mcmoo |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 02 Oct 00 - 06:49 AM Up at the top, Auxiris, you asked why Patrish & I think the Danes made the right choice. I can't speak for Patrish, but here are the reasons I would, in the Danes' situation, vote against joining a single currency: The single currency is, I believe, seen by many of its proponents as a stepping-stone to a single Europe, a United States of Europe. Many of my arguments, therefore are against a single Europe, not just against a single currency. The current state of the various economies within Euroland (eg Ireland booming and facing high inflation needs a high interest rate but Germany stagnating needs a low interest rate) suggests that a single currency probably can't suit a mixed-bag of economies. The logical extension of this argument is to predict that one of two things will happen: either the single currency will collapse or the Euroland nations/economies must unite under a single economic government. I wouldn't want any part of either of these. It seems to me that the trend (world-wide, not just European) is towards splitting, rather than uniting: thus Scotland and Wales probably won't be part of a United Kingdom for long, there's a faction in Brittany that wants independence from France, ditto the Basque Country from Spain & France, N Italy from S Italy, Quebec from Canada, a myriad examples in Africa, etc, etc. Whether or not this is desirable or A Good Thing is another question, but the trend suggests that a United Europe may not have a very long lifetime, and the recent history of Yugoslavia illustrates that the breaking up of loose unions can be painful (to put it mildly). And note that no country in Euroland has polled its citizens on the subject of a single currency (actually, I may be mistaken there -- did France poll, and get a tiny majority?) which seems to be a politicians' rather than a popular movement. The institution of Europe is notable more for its corruption than its efficacy or successes. Already in Britain we have two tiers of government. Do we need a third, particularly a corrupt third? I think the British are constitutionally (ie in their personalities, not in terms of their governmental constitution) unsuited to be members of a Greater Europe. If Europe says "Jump", Mediterranean Europe says "I'm jumping" but sits on its fanny and does nothing, and even Germany merely hops once or twice. Britain, on the other hand, not only jumps but sets up an army of jobsworth beaurocrats to ensure that everbody jumps, to measure the height of each and the distance travelled. Less than half (but I admit the statistics vary depending on which Newspaper you read) of Britain's trade is with Euroland. Currency fluctuations will not disappear if we join Euroland: the pound will still vary against the Dollar, the Yen, the Rouble, etc. At what rate would we join? If we'd been in at the start, the pound would, just because of temporary economic quirks, have been too high, which would have put the British economy at a disadvantage. Now, the rest of Euroland won't let us in at a rate which will disadvantage them. I can't see, myself, how I could meaningfully vote in a referendum unless I knew the proposed excange rate. Britain has been at enmity severally with many of the European states over the last millennium; a thousand years of history can't be excised overnight. Many Europeans simply don't like Britain (that's the thanks you get for digging them out of the shit twice in the last 100 years; look at de Gaulle's attitude). Given a bit more time, I'm sure I could come up with many more reasons. Will these do for the time being? **************************************** On the subject of imperial weights and measures: those of us who learned to add and subtract these units at school have found that we are fully conversant with handling different number bases, which (for me at least) has been a help in using computers at a low (assembler) level. Used to bases of 3 (feet in a yard), 8 (stones in a cwt), 12 (inches in a foot), 14 (lb in a stone), 16 (oz in a lb) and 20 (s in a £) then octal & hexadecimal present no problem. Interestingly (to this bell-ringer at least) bell-weights are still quoted in cwt/qtr/lb. A quarter is 28 lb, or a quarter of a cwt. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Lady McMoo Date: 02 Oct 00 - 08:21 AM A well-argued case Bald Eagle but I still don't agree. The overwhelming argument in favour of a single currency is cross-border trade which in turn means jobs. Yes there will be exchange fluctuations between the Euro, Yen, Dollar, etc. but the greater the membership of the Euro the greater inertia there will be against currency swings. And having lost LDS 7000 of my hard-earned money due to the crash of the pound when I moved countries, anything which puts the speculating parasites out of business is fine by me. All the best mcmoo |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 02 Oct 00 - 08:54 AM I'd be interested to know, mcmoo (how do I pronounce your name, by the way. Is it "MacMoo"? or "M. C. Moo"?), if there's any evidence that inter-country trade in Euroland has increased since their currencies were frozen to the Euro. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Linda Kelly Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:51 PM I won't go into the many economic reasons why I believe in the single currency -becase frankly anyone who argues that a Frenchman feels less French or a German less German because of a single currency has an argument based more on xenophobia than on any other strength of reasoning. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Terry K Date: 03 Oct 00 - 03:03 AM The last time we tried to align the European currencies (EMS?), the whole thing fell apart mighty quickly. As I recall, it started with some stuff going on in Italy which knocked on through the community. The result was that we in UK had to increase our interest rate progressively from 7% to 15% in the space of less than an hour, before arriving at the logical action to drop out. George Soros made a packet and the taxpayer suffered once again. What happened to the currency was the manifestation of the fundamental economic differences throughout the community. In other words, the currency was able to act as a "safety valve" to the situation. With a single currency, this safety valve would not exist, hence the economic misalignment would have to manifest itself in a different way. Which way? And I believe that Europe is too big and the national economies too different from one another to not have an internal currency futures market. Other than that, I don't really mind! Cheers, Terry |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Auxiris Date: 03 Oct 00 - 03:36 AM Sorry, Lepus. . . was in a hurry to go out and made the mistake of trying to reply quickly. My apologies. Should I have said the Netherlands? I must admit that I don't really know what the preferred name of theis country is. cheers, Aux |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 03 Oct 00 - 04:42 AM And I haven't mentioned the language problem yet. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Lady McMoo Date: 03 Oct 00 - 04:51 AM And no-one's mentioned the fact that the Euro will greatly facilitate e-commerce for those couintries subscibing to the currency! mcmoo |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 03 Oct 00 - 07:03 AM In what way more so than snail-commerce? |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Grab Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:58 AM Metrification was _bad_, McGrath????? Let's take an example - say you've got 905 widgets at 7d each. How much is that? In decimal it's easy - if they're 7p each, that's £63.35. Work it in imperial, that comes to £26 7s 11d. Disregarding "inflation", which calculation was easier to do? I did the decimal one in my head in a couple of seconds, but had to resort to a pen and paper for the imperial one. And these only have 3 separate sets of units - anything involving yards, rods, perches, chains, furlongs, etc is just plain barmy. Do you hop everywhere bcos walking's too easy? ;-) The main argument I've heard against decimalisation was that prices went up cos folks started selling goods at 1d = 1p, but if you're prepared to pay that price then the price stays high - that's market forces for you. As for the arguments about not being able to represent LSD values in decimal, it's irrelevant - I can give you a list as long as you want of decimal values which can't be represented exactly in LSD. The only advantage the imperial system had was that it was _there_. Imperial pipe-fittings still exist simply by their user-base - it would be difficult to replace them all. Miles-per-hour is another example. Think of them as living pieces of history, like driving on the left. A more rational argument for not Eurifying is not wanting to continue federalisation. A well-run EU would be a marvellous institution, leveraging the combined economic power of its constituent nations. But an EU which is fundamentally corrupt, self-serving and inefficient, as it is, is not something I'm keen on. A single currency might be an idea if all the countries in the EU had comparable economies, but the difference between poorer countries like Greece and the rich industrial countries like Germany makes it impractical. Grab. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:45 PM I've just seen a report that another referendum on whether or not to join the Euro is to be held in Denmark. The attitude is typical of government: if the rebellious bastards won't vote the way we want today, we'll hold another referendum tomorrow. And another the day after, if necessary, until they get it right. But if/when a referendum returns the desired result will they have another? Not on your nellie! Sanctimoniously (and hypocritically), they'll say, "The people have spoken." Same thing in Ireland, I believe. A referendum there rejected the Treaty of Nice, and immediately politicians were talking of getting the decision reversed at the next one. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:47 PM PS to Wolfgang, somewhat off topic: What are the hundredths of a Euro known as in Germany? |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Peg Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:00 AM re: American microbrews, yes they are indeed very very good. And larger brewers (once micros) like Sam Adams and Pete's wicked have also been making some very good beers...except Sam Adams Boston Lager and Boston Ale; horrible! There are several microbreweries here in Boston. And a number of them in Vermont. re: the Euro. I think it's the beginning of the end. I support Denmark and Britain's decisions not to go along...
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Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: GUEST,Boab Date: 15 Jan 02 - 01:22 AM If you are resident in the British Isles, you are European whether or not you wish to reject the label.The pound was, in its heyday, a perfectly rational form of currency, given the widespread influence of Britain on the world stage. It would still jog along, albeit precariously, even in these altered days, but the day of the mighty pound is over---past---gone. It makes perfect sense, if England [or Scotland, or Ireland, or Wales]wants to be an integral part of the European market,to adopt the currency which is slated to be the official exchange within that market. And---no offence meant here--- no one who is not native to Europe or to territories who seriously wish to become part of its market has any right to make flat statements either for or against without at least laying out their reasons for holding the opinions expressed. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Wolfgang Date: 15 Jan 02 - 09:41 AM Well, in Lichtenstein they had about two dozens referenda until it became the last European country to allow women to vote in 1984....After the winning referendum there was never a new referendum to restrict women voting, by the way. That supports Bald Eagle's argument: The government was not contented with a very clear result they had against women voting in the 1920 so they repeated the referendum about each 4 years... Now to the main question (grin): There is a dissenting minority who insists upon the spelling 'Zent' (invariably spoken 'tsent') but officially and by a very large margin it is 'Cent'. The pronounciation is less clear. About half (in my peer group) say 'sent' (exactly as the English word), the other half say 'tsent' (same as 'sent', basically, but you just start with the same phoneme which ends e.g. 'cats'). I say 'sent' but my bet is on 'tsent' to win on the long run for a simple reason: most prices that involve 'cents' end on either '...zig' (tsick) or '...zehn'. Try saying a couple of times '...tsick sent' in succession and then compare the ease when saying 'tsick tsent'. (Perhaps you have to grow up speaking German to even considering using a word as 'ease' when pronouncing 'ts' sound at the beginning of words). Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Terry K Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:01 AM GUEST,Boab, your statement "It makes perfect sense.....to adopt the currency..... within that market" is the best argument I have heard for there NOT to be a referendum. Unfortunately there will be one and most of the voters will adopt something like your naively simplistic argument as the basis for their vote. You miss the whole point.
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Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Fibula Mattock Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:23 AM The worst thing is, when you need a piss you can't "spend a penny" anymore - you have to "euronate". (sorry!) |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Hrothgar Date: 16 Jan 02 - 03:47 AM What do the danes have against Macropus Robustus, the euro (also known as the wallaroo and sometimes as the rock wallaby? |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: mooman Date: 16 Jan 02 - 04:29 AM Bang....whoosh! January 1st arrived and went! Hey, I'm suddenly using Euros and it's not such a big deal. Whoa...I've got to go to The Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg and Italy this month on business. Blast...got to change some money again! Hang on...no I don't 'cos they're using Euros as well! From where I sit the Euro doesn't seem so bad at all! mooman (in Belgium) |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 16 Jan 02 - 05:42 AM Yes, well, Mooman, no one (not me, at least) denies that the single currency has some benefits. I am planning two trips to Europe this year and can see the convenience, particularly as our current European paying guest is paying in Euros so both he and I will avoid all currency-change commissions. But I still cannot see how all Euroland's disparate economies can co-exist without something giving, and what is there to give if no exchange-rate fluctuation is possible? I still maintain that the great experiment will end in tears, that national currencies will have to be re-introduced, and that the ensuing misery will make the convenience experienced by travellers such as me look like a fart in a colander. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: mooman Date: 16 Jan 02 - 07:28 AM Dear Bald Eagle, I can see such disparity that exists in national economies gradually evening out due to the operation and levelling effect of the single market. Certainly this will take time but I very much doubt that we will see a reversion to national currencies. More likely we will see Sweden, followed by Denmark and then the UK joining the single currency. Probably at that time there will be something approaching parity between the dollar and the Euro because of the size and power of the respective trading blocks and I suspect that there will also be moves to establish a third common currency in the Far East. At least that how it looks from here. But of course, I may of course be completely wrong and you may be completely right! Best regards, mooman |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:08 AM Time will tell, Mooman, time will tell. As regards re-introduction of a national currency, Luxembourg was preparing to shelve its 70-year-old currency-union with Belgium and issue its own currency when the ERM went potty in the early 90s. Click Here. Wolfgang: a belated thanks for cents/tsents/zents. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: GUEST,chrisj Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:24 PM Nobody has mentioned the fact that the 'virtual' Euro has been in existance for several years already, with the national currencies of the 12 members using fixed exchange rates in all trade and commerce. The obvious question is: what disadvantages have so far been identified? I haven't heard of any as yet but what do others think? Yes, I'd say a closer political union must eventually follow the economic integration that will inevitably come from a single currency. For relatively tiny domestic economies like Denmark and Ireland to survive alone, and to deliver acceptable standards of living, would mean a roller-coaster ride, with their national currencies continually vulnerable to currency speculators and with their essential export markets almost all inside the Euro zone in any case. Sure, Ireland will have precious little say in controlling European economic and fiscal policies, but what say would it have if it had remained outside, like Denmark? What happens to Denmark's exports to the Euro zone if its currency appreciates or declines significantly against the Euro? A flood of cheaper imports of farm produce, a drying up of sales of expensive Danish goods in the Euro zone? It seems to me that once the larger European countries, Germany, France and Italy agreed to a common market the small fry had no real choice but to get in as best they could. As for retention of cultural diversity, the world has seen the culling of many cultures in the name of economic rationalism over the centuries (how many wampum beads = a greenback?). At least now our awareness levels are such that we have no excuses if we dump something of real human value. |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Rollo Date: 17 Jan 02 - 06:07 PM I remember having read nearly 100% of danish export goes to germany, and about 80% of danish economy is export. (Anyone knows where to find the actual numbers?)So a common currency would make danish export a lot more profitable, wouldn´t it? But no wonder they have fears against unification. We tried to conquer them once, now we are simply bying them. Danish feel they have to protect themselves if they want to stay danish. Indeed you are not allowed to buy a house in denmark if you are not living in denmark most of the time. (But then, it were them to build all those holiday appartments which ruin most of their beautiful west coast landscape.) Yet in my humble opinion a united europe is JUST the thing to protect small ethnic groups! After all these centuries of shifting borders there are a lot of minorities everywhere. Nation does no longer equal Country. The danish minority in Northern Germany is one example. But there is also a german minority in southern Denmark, there are Italians in Slovenia, there is the "classic" mixed country of Belgium, there are minorities spread to two or more countrys like the basque, nearly extinct groups like the slavic "Sorbs" in Germany, and so on... In a united europe there would be no more reason for the basque to bomb up spaniards, or for the catholics and protestants in northern ireland to fight about which country it is, there would be no reason for natinal separatism anymore, cause there would be no more national states! Maybe it has something to do with our special german nazi history, but in my opinion national feelings in europe are definitely a relict of past. Two world wars have shown what happens if you equal ethnic groups and political structures. We are a great mixup everywhere. We may still have something like national feelings, but what is ist more than local colorit? |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Gareth Date: 17 Jan 02 - 06:38 PM Mmmm! Wether those who are so against the Euro would be quite so content to put thier case in Llanwern or Ebbw Vale where rather a lot of Corus (ex British Steel) jobs went in the last few years because of exchange rate difficulties, remains to be seen. However, (and for what oppinion polls are worth) a survey for the "Western Mail" (which claims to be the National Paper of Wales)published last week puts those for the Euro at 41%, those against at 40%. Yet again Wales leads the rest of Brittain ! Gareth |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Terry K Date: 18 Jan 02 - 04:16 AM And Gareth, does it say how many of them (on each side) even begin to understand what the real issues are? Or do they just think it'll make their holidays easier. Terry |
Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro From: Ringer Date: 18 Jan 02 - 04:45 AM And that, Terry K, is the rub. Gareth: what makes you think that the pound/euro exchange rate at which we'd join the single currency would allow Corus products to be competitive? What if it just froze the current unsustainable rate? |